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Salad and soup are big fillers. But let’s face it, ya gotta have honey cake!
Charlie, I was referring to us. I knwo there are some people who oppose the mosque on the grounds that they have no legal right to do it. Most of us, however, are not contesting their legal rights, but are questioning if in fact it IS right.
My opinion is that there are many things that we can legally do, but should not for various reasons. People could legally stand in the street in front of someone’s funeral procession that has left the chapel and is in a public area, and start singing hip hop and rap music,cursing at the top of their lungs, if they so desired (free speech and all that). Should they do something that would probably offend the sensibilities of the mourners, EVEN IF IT IS LEGAL?
“I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but our religion also “BANS ALL freedom of religion”. As a matter of fact, if somebody from our religion converts to another, we stone them. And yet we still want the Freedom of Religion to apply to us, don’t we?”
We do NOT try to forcibly convert goyim or kill them if they refuse. The Muslims do. And they do it to prevent anyone from having freedom of religious choice. They cannot come back and try to use our laws to help them achieve their goal, when they l’chatchilah believe our laws to be stupid and would never follow them themselves. You cannot use my law against me to achieve your own aim, when that aim is to render me unable to follow my own law.
Also, according to what I have learned all my life, the Sanhedrin that actually implemented such an action even once in 70 years, was called a cruel Sanhedrin (meaning, it never really happened or was an incredibly rare occurrence).
We see this same idea of sensitivity when Moshe Rabbeinu was supposed to speak to Selah to get water, and instead he hit it. If an inanimate object deserved to be treated with respect, how much more so are we mechuyavim to treat live creations of Hashem with respect and dignity. “
I was actually confusing to things when I posted this, though I think it also ho0lds true here. The thing I meant to quote was that Moshe R’ was not allowed to hit the NILE river with his staff (Aharon did it), in initiating makkas dam, because of hakoras hatov to the Nile for hiding and protecting baby Moshe. If we need to be sensitive to the feelings of a non-living object like water, how much more so must we care about the feelings of people! So if Kimchis was concerned with the “feelings” of tznius that a wall might have, how much more so msut we be sensitive to be tznuim with people.
I try hard not to insult anyone here, but if I did so, it was from a momentary lapse of judgment and I am sorry.
Doesn’t any thinking person find it grossly ironic that the people who force their women to wear burkas, who execute women for being raped, who beheaded a Jewish journalist just because they COULD, who commit every act of barbarism under the sun against people who do not follow THEIR religion, or issue fatwahs (death threats) against authors who even satirize their religion (does the name Salman Rushdie ring a bell?), want to use OUR constitutional right of freedom of religion to push their agenda? In what Bizarro world does a way of life which preaches religious intolerance and death to all infidels, get to use our laws of religious freedom as an excuse to be able to do ANYTHING? The Koran is very specific. Until they change everything in it that talks about killing non-believers and driving Jews into the sea, I have no reason to see their side of things.
IMO, backing down now would be like admitting they are partially responsible. Islam is a religion – not every muslim caused the terror attacks. “
SJS:
I have rarely had cause to disagree with your well-written posts, but this is one time I must. Any Muslim who has not vocally and vigorously denounced HAMAS and all terrorist groups, distancing themselves from them as much as they can in avery obvious way, IS responsible for the continuation of terror. The Imam has made very clear in an interview in his own words, that there IS an agenda. It is not one of peace, for anyone who still might be naive enough to be liberal. There is no justification for allowing this mosque to be built bedavka at this location. They can build all the mosques they want (well, really I would not be so happy about that, because that IS their plan), BUT NOT BY GROUND ZERO. It dishonors the memory of those who died there so tragically and painfully. The fact that the Muslims are STILL pushing for this, knowing how so many people feel, proves they are uncaring of the insesitivity they are showing in their zeal to push forward with their owns desires. In my eyes, there is absolutely no mitigating factor in this.
MAzel tov Arevim and Ames on each of your wonderful news! Much nachas and bracha.
“However, as Helpful pointed out, why would the Gemora bring down a story if not to approve of it? And as Midwest2 said, which yeshivos did you learn in that you are so confident in your explanations of what the Gemora means? Did you even read the Gemora once? Probably not, no? So then what gives you the ability to explain to us what the Gemora is or is not referring to?”
I did not read the Gemarah, it was read and taught to us in classes on tznius and Taharas hamishpacha, to make the point of why we need to cover our hair after marriage. My teacher was very careful to point out that this was not meant to imply it was a must-do. The story of Kimchis was not meant to convey that she is an absolute role model to be emulated, but rather it is her dedication to tznius that IS to be emulated.
Her attitude and hashkafa, but not necessarily her actions, were to teach us something about personal modesty, to the point that even the “walls of a house” have feelings. We see this same idea of sensitivity when Moshe Rabbeinu was supposed to speak to Selah to get water, and instead he hit it. If an inanimate object deserved to be treated with respect, how much more so are we mechuyavim to treat live creations of Hashem with respect and dignity. If we must be sensitive even to the sensibilities of the walls of a house which cannot have a reaction, kal v’chomer our tznuius must be proper in front of people who DO react.
BTW, someone does not have to be a Gemarah learner to hear something told and learn from it or have a personal insight from it. Don’t disparage that. We say mekal melamdi hiskalti. That would seem redundant, because melamdi means those who have taught me. So from all those who have taught me I have gained wisdom seems like a double loshon. The idea is that everyone has some wisodom to impart, and it is the wise person who learns something from everyone who has something to teach him, even from an ignorant person like me, who didn’t learn Gemarah. I didn’t learn all the midrashim, either, but it does not take a talmid chochom to know that the fruit Chava gave to Odom could not have simultanesously been a grape, an esrog, a piece of wheat, and whatever else Chazal say. It’s not about the words that are written, but about the idea that is being conveyed by those words.
Have a good Shabbos.
OK, bottom line for me, the words of the Gemorah, the chachomim etc. are still divided by what we MUST do, and what SOME feel are good suggestions. Hashem did not give us the Aseres Eitzos or Taryag Recommendations. he gave us a specific Derech to follow. Some rabbonim feel that ever more stringent followings are better for us, but that does not make those things either a chiyuv OR necessarily the best advice. It was the best advice that they felt inclined to follow ADDITIONALLY to the actual halacha, at the time in which they lived and said what they said. There are very few frum women today who would argue that the way to have wonderful kids is to refrain from upsetting the sensibilities of one’s walls by letting them see her hair. IT WAS A MASHAL. It teaches us that tznius is of utmost importance (no argument from me on that issue). And I would hope that no one here actually believes that a woman whose head is uncovered in the privacy of her own home, is somehow committing a terrible aveira that makes her unworthy of having wonderful, beautiful, and successful children.
May a woman excercise in front of a man, no matter how tsniusdik she is dressed? Does it matter if this man is a jew or non jew?”
If it is her husband and she is not a niddah, I would say, go for it. it might even help their marriage.
No, it should not be built. The freedom of religion does not apply to a religion that BANS ALL freedom of religion. You cannot brutally murder your parents and then come before the judge asking for clememncy on the grounds that you are an orphan, nebbich.
No one disputes the legal right for someone to build on property that belongs to him (though in many neighborhoods there are zoning laws that restrict those rights to an extent). But we are not talking about RIGHTS, but whether or not it is RIGHT to do it.
The Muslim agenda is very clear. The fact that as soon as there was a great outcry and they did not back off, shows that the Muslims do not care one whit for the sensibilities of the people who lost loved ones, or for the rest of us who simply commiserate with the, It takes not concern of the firefighters, police, EMS workers, other medical personnell who were injured or died trying to rescue people frfom the aftermath of what these maniacs did.
I don’t even care if it is only a “small segment of the population” who are terrorists. that is baloney and we all know it. But even if that were so, none of the Imams (especially the one associated with this mosque) has ever publicly and decisively denounced Muslim terrorism. Sorry, but they have no right to shout fire metaphorically in a crowded theater.
The biggest insuklt is when people say,”Well would you have the same objection if a church or synagogue was being built there?” WHAT??? HAVE WE LOST OUR COLLECTIVE MINDS? Did a Christian or Jewish group hijack three planes and murder thousands of people in the space of a few minutes? it is not the OBJECT but the people who want to build it and gloat in what it symbolizes, that we find objectionable. This is not just flak we are giving the Imam. He has to get the message loud and clear.
One should never be untzniusdig in front of ANY man, goy or Jew (except for that person’s spouse and only when not in niddah). Either one is tzniusdig or one is not. Period.
mw13, its called for when someone repeatedly and constantly twists gemorahs not to her liking to reinterpert it to her liking — often with the exact opposite meaning the gemorah intended. I repeat, this has been a pattern. “
Helpful, I am going to word my post carefully, because when one is angered, it is better to refrain from response. I LOVE the Torah, which includes the Gemorah. Though I do not learn Gemorah, I know enough to know there is halacha and there is discussion about halacha. They are not the same thing. The halacha is what Hashem says it is. The discussion is the (granted) learned opinion of Chazal, many of whom could not agree with each other on some crucial issues. We follow what came down at the end, as the halacha. What the Gemorah intended should be what HASHEM intended.
Sometimes there seems to be a conflict, and that is what bothers me. If Hashem does not want women’s hair to be visible even in their own homes and actually SAID SO at HAr Sinai, then that is the halacha and i would never question it. I do not believe however, that Hashem said that EVER, and I certainly do not take as Torah m’Sinai the TAITCH of Kimchis’ answer to a question (and who asked her this question anyway – it surely could not have been the Gedolim, because that clearly would not be tzniusdig to have such a sicha with a married woman about her children, right? That’s also in the mishneh of al tarbeh sicha…).
And if you would open your mind just a teeny tiny bit, perhaps you would understand that not everything you hold to be true for yourself, is necessarily what other frum people hold and THEY MIGHT BE AS RIGHT AS YOU THINK YOU ARE. Don’t disparage someone because she does not believe that every medrash is to be taken literally (they actually can’t, because many contradict each other), or that everything written in the Gemarah is also meant to be followed as halacha, when in fact what it is doing is serving to teach an ideal that some people feel is right for them.
Off this issue, the entire discussion about tznius in exercise is naarishkeit. If a woman is alone, and all exercising women in general, she should be dressed comfortable so she doesn’t get heat stroke from the exercise. Zumba (I don’t do it myself), is a vigorous dancing type exercise, perhaps African in nature. It works all the muscles of the body and is quite effective, I have heard. If you believe women should dress in long sleeves and dresses to exercise, then dress that way. The rest of us want to be comfortable in the rpivacy of our own homes. And show me the source please for having to wear sox at all, much less to take them off under the covers. Maybe we should take our showers in a bathing dress, too.
since when do women give their own narrowminded teitch of gemorahs?”
Please take it down a notch. “The Gemarah actually SAYS, YES, Kimchis was 100% correct! The walls of one’s house should never see a (married)woman’s hair????!!!!” Please. I am not giving any
teitch, even if I knew how. Please do not insult the intelligence of women who do not choose to understand things in the exact same manner as you choose to understand them. I view the Kimchis story as an illustration of one woman’s assessment of her own personal tznius. Period. Most women will never be the mother’s of a kohein gadol, and though the walls of my house (and my friends’ homes)DO see my and their hair from time to time, I think Hashem gave us pretty terrific kids in spite of this apparent “avla.” BTW, narrowmindedness works both ways. Re-read your own words to me.
The whole thing with Kimchis is that SHE answered the question as to what SHE believed was the reason for that zechus. She could have been totally mistaken. Chazal included this story in the Gemarah to illustrate a certain hashkafa in tznius. It was probably not told to Moshe Rabbeinu M’Sinai, and certainly not meant to imply it is halacha.
“Last I checked, the Torah tells us “Unishmartem M’od L’nafshoseichem” – and exercise is a pivotal aspect to keeping our bodies healthy. The Imahos may not have been joining Zumba and Pilates classes but they also were living agricultural lifestyles – filling water at the well, walking and moving constantly – they weren’t spending their days driving carpool, sitting behind desks, and basically leading sedentary lifestyles. Let’s not forget that Rivkah Imeinu gave water to ten camels – not an easy task – and Rachel and Leah brought their flocks to the well to water. “
It’s funny, I thought I had posted something similar to what you said here, but I don’t see the post, so maybe I deleted it before sending.
RAYIM ahuvim, sof davar, rayim ahuvim (that means loving FRIENDS). I disagree with you.
“The traditional way is that once the decision has been made, after the vort, the couple do NOT meet any more, at all, until the chassunah.’
Who says so? Maybe in VERY chassidish circles and some types of yeshivahs, but I have never heard of this among mainstream frum people.
rip currents. But the chances are greater for that to happen when there is no lifeguard around. Also, lifeguards are both trained to SPOT rip currents (and order people out of the water in that case), and to rescue someone in trouble who is caught in that rip current. They also have flotation devices, something that most swimmers do not.
MAZEL TOV, MAZEL TOV!!!!!!!! How is your wife feeling? She should have a refuah shelaima, and the boys should bring you much nachas.
I have been told that the first bris takes place until the conclusion of the Milah ceremony, and then the second baby is brought in for his turn. Each one gets a separate “production.”
“Marriage is not friendship.
Sorry to break it to you, the reason unfortunately yeshivish people divorce today is NOT because of the shidduch system. There are many reasons but the shidduch system has worked for generations and generations, maybe even in a more tznius fashion.”
If your first sentence is correct, would you kindly explain to me the meaning of sameach tisamach RAYIM ahuvim? We say it in the sheva brachos. Your marriage partner is your BEST friend, the one person you should be able to count on above all others.
And I happen to disagree with you very strongly. Every single person I know who has divorced after a short marriage has said to me that they did not feel they had nearly sufficient time to get to know the boy or girl, because the shidduch system pushed them along too quickly, and since everything looked good “on paper,” and the parents were eager for the learning boy or the girl with a good job,they took the chance. After they got married and realized what they really had gotten themselves into, they were very disillusioned by the reality of married life to someone about whom they really knew very little, other than the facts that were good on paper. The shidduch system as we know it is NOT working well at all. Never have there been so many single frum boys and girls. We do not live in the shtetl anymore, and what was accepted then is not acceptable to many now. Take off your rosy glasses and really look around at how many FRUM kids in their late twenties and thirties are not married.
“Tell me, why would they “change the status to dating” if they felt no attraction to each other?”
Because,M13, they looked at each other one day and realized the relationship had undergone a subtle change. You clearly did not read or understand my post. I thought I was pretty clear on the subject. There was no attraction when they first became friends, but after many months of friendship of really getting to know each other through long conversations and time spent together in a non-pressurized way, they realized there was substantially more to the relationship. Why you seem to feel this is a BAD thing, I cannot for the life of me figure out.
Don’t we WANT our children to marry people with whom they feel a comfortable close friendship as well as attraction? Why on earth do you keep harping on this? I am not involved in this particular fruitless debate anymore. It is truly pointless.
Every single drowning that has made the papers in recent years, has occurred when there was no lifeguard on duty, before or after normal swimming hours.
In Far Rockaway, a little girl was swept away in knee deep water, as her horrified father (or uncle) looked on helplessly. the other kids had to be pulled from the water, too, but they survived. A girl downed recently on a school trip, some boys drowned when one fell in and the other jumped in to try to save him. No one survived, and there was no LG. If it happens even ONE time, it is one time too many.
Kasha, you are mistaken when you talk about “obviously it was not so platonic in the first place.” Of course it was. They started out as friends, and then realized they wanted to change the status to dating, as opposed to just grabbing a cup of coffee with a friend between classes. The IDEAL relationship is when two people who have so much in common as friends, realize their attraction to each other and deepen that friendship into a lifetime commitment. And if you think otherwise, that’s your prerogative, but please don’t project your prejudices onto my family.
Ask anyone in my neighborhood about my kids, you will only hear good things about them, about their middos, their behavior, their derech eretz, and their temimus.
“Exactly, ask any goy how long they’ve been living with their girl/boy friend and they’ll tell you years! and yet the divorce rate is still high among goyim as opposed to the yeshivishe velt where there is few platonic relationships the divorce rate is low “
First of all, you are unfortunately and tragically incorrect, the divorce rate among the Yeshivish has become increasingly higher in recent years. I myself know at least half a dozen couples who broke up within the year of marriage.
Second, please stop talking about the goyim. We are talking about FRUM kids who do not believe in the shidduch dating system. The reason for a high divorce rate among ANY group, is that there is no longer a sense of stick-to-it-iveness that there used to be. There is less stigma attached to divorce today than there once was and it is far easier to get a no-fault divorce today than ever before, and people are no longer willing in our very disposable society, to try to work things out. You need a new radio – buy one, don’t fix the old one.
“According to you, why did the Rabbonim make the issurim of yichud, negiah, etc? Why didn’t they “have faith” in the people?”
Are you seriously comparing actual yichud and negiah to people sitting together at a simcha or talking together in the street, at shul, in school, or at a social event of some other type?????
I do not believe this! Maybe according to that way of thinking, a boy should not even be allowed to drive a girl in his car on a date. That is Yichud, too. And she is really at his mercy if the car is on a deserted road. He could drive wherever he wanted. But we trust the boys and the girls not to do anything wrong.
If the beaches are deserted (no lifeguards)then they are very unsafe to swim in them. Just from the standpoint alone of v’nishmartem meod es nafshoseichem, it would be assur to swim there.
MOD 80, no need for sarcasm. You are allowed to disagree with me without making that type of comment.
Ben Torah – you cannot have it both ways. At least one of the Gedolim whom WE call Gedolim (Rav Moshe for example ZT”L) had mixed seating at his wedding. So are you CHAS V’SHOLOM saying he was lax in his observance?
REALLY mw13? It isn’t a mitzvah? That’s not how I understood the first perakim of Breishis. BTW – if it were not a mitzvah, we would not make brachos on it. The wedding I just went to convinces me you are mistaken.
So I take it that dos not happen when they are shidduch dating????
Yep, you’re absolutely right. Many do develop into something more. Engagements and marriage! How wonderful! And how sad that anyone should think that is a bad thing. Two of my children married their platonic friends, when they realized that they had developed feelings of attraction to the friends they really cared about. Nothing is better than marrying your really good friend, because you know there was something more to the relationship than merely raging hormones.
“here’s a good tip…take a hammer…smash the screen to bits…collect all the bits neatly into a trash bag…and put it out with your trash. “
Um… I actually think that is against the recycling of electronics law.
When we say Eilu V’Eilu we are acknowledging that Hashem gave the T”CH the authority to pasken as they see fit. And that is why we each find a rov and rely on his p’sak when we don’t know what we are supposed to do. But no one has the right to say it is kefira to question the idea that no two rabbonim pasken the same way. They cannot both be right at the bottom line. The halacha has to be a yes or no. There might be wiggle room and different ways of examining a halacha in many instances, but in much basic halacha there is only assur or muttar. Something is not a little bit kosher.
Nevertheless, as Hashem gave the authority to rabbonim, we still follow our rov, even if it were to turn out he is mistaken (the Bat Kol story). I cannot help but be bothered, though, by this, because I feel there should be a consensus across the board. If there were, then I believe there would be greater achdus in Klal Yisroel.
MW13, I do not chalilah look down upon anyone who is ultra frum, machmir or whatever you wish to call it. You call your chumros “not taking chances.” I follow many of those same chumros, but I see the kulos as following the Torah as Hashem instructed us to follow it. I believe that very often, kol hamosif goreya, and I am not the person who originated that expression. The very fact that you feel compelled to respond to what I write, shows how you feel. I am perfectly comfortable with you following whatever chumrah you desire – as long as you do not begin to think that your chumrah is the actual halacha, and I am just a poor sinner because I don’t follow it as you do. And if you doubt it, then just read any post here where people have written that they follow halacha, but are taking on a chumrah because they need to work on themselves.
I know many areas that I need to work on, but it is because I am clearly NOT following the halacha properly (like being nichshal in Loshon Hara), not because I am doing the right thing, but think I will be better if I work on myself and adopt stricter guidelines to follow. When we do that we are actually CHAS V’SHOLOM diminishing the Torah, by implying that it is not good enough as is. Maybe I am not expressing myself properly, and if so, for that I am sorry.
“Not necessarily. Many people only hold CY as a chumra, and are not always so makpid on it. For instance, some eat powdered milk, some eat CS when it’s difficult to get CY, and most eat things made with kailim used for CS. “
From what I have read from posts in the CR on this subject, those who are makpid on C”Y posted their mekoros, and it sounded very much that they were equating C”St with something that is not considered kosher. So if I held strictly by this (and they did not refer to it as a chumrah, but as halacha), I would not allow my kids to eat anything at all that was not C”Y, except in an emergency. (I love M&Ms , but there has never been an M&M emergency as far as I know).
I’m not saying they are correct, or that there are no exceptions, because as I said, I don’t specifically drink C”Y, so it is not shayach to me (except during aseres yemai teshuvah when I DO drink only C”Y) For chinuch alone, I would not vaccilate.
IMHO if the entire family is C”Y then no, it should not be eaten (exception being if outside and there is no choice). It is hypocritical to preach one thing and then not do it, and is not good for chinuch bonim. Just my thoughts. And I am not C”Y. Would you give them unkosher food just because they are children? To someone who is strictly C”Y, C”ST food is almost like tarfus. At least, that is the impression I have gotten in the CR during the discussions.
Assuming the cheese is kosher, even if not Cholov Yisroel, I am told that certain cheeses can ONLY be made from the milk of kosher animals. Something in the cheese will not do something or other, if the milk is not cow, goat, sheep, etc. But the cheese must have a hechsher in all cases.
“Oomis, did you ever read what the Meforshim say on why the Masechta starts with Moshe Kibel Torah? They say that it is pointing out that this Masechta is Torah, not personal opinions based on experience or what the nations did (the famous Mekor for everything Chazal say), or perhaps what they read on a Cheerios box. “
The Torah shebichsav and the Torah sheb’al Peh are both m’Sinai. One Rov disagreeing with another, seems to not be, though the inyan they are discussing is m’Sinai. When we say Eilu V’eilu divrei Elokim Chayim, it is their words. Hashem only gave ONE p’sak of what we need to do. Assur, Mutar. If two or 10 rabbanim cannot get a consensus of what the definite law is, then what they are arguing is their own personal (albeit, very learned and authoritative)INTERPRETATION of what Hashem’s Ratzon is. They cannot ALL be right at the same time, much as we give lip service to that idea.
Ultimately it has to come down to majority rule (remember the Bas Kol that said one specific rov was correct, but we follow the rule of all the others). So if all of those rabbonim were wrong and Hashem really wanted us to do what the other rov said, then this presents a dilemma in terms of what the Torah means to convey. Still, we follow the decision of the majority, because it is crucial to follow authority, and no one will successfully say nay on that.
As to chumros – my ONE AND ONLY concern is that people who are machmir look upon the rest of us no-goodniks who are merely following the Torah, as lesser Yidden. Do not bother to deny it. It is a singular gaiveh that I have seen over and over again, even here in the CR. The fact that someone cannot simply say, “You know what Oomis, or whoever – you are actually right (if and when I occasionally am), but I just feel more comfortable doing XYZ the chumrah, because it helps me to not be nichsal in ABC,” then I would not feel that way. As soon as you or anyone else here asserts that something like mixed seating or cholov stam, or allowing boys and girls to talk to each other, or that making shidduchim WITHOUT a shadchan are all shandas, and you are smug because you don’t do ANY of those things, you have regarded yourself with gaivah. And call me overly sensitive, but I am bothered.
I know what many of my own failings are, and I try to work on them, and have succeeded in some areas. But not one of those areas is in regard to mixed conversation or simcha seating, or having company on Shabbos. I try to be less judgmental (don’t always succeed, granted), try to not speak or listen to L”H (I REALLY need to work on that part of myself – that is an uphill battle), and I need to delete more of what I post here, I guess.
Room
Au contraire. There is no such thing as Torah True Jews for Zionism. Zionism, the political philosophy, is an anti-Torah concept”
Yes there is – they were members of Hapoel Hamizrachi, now known as Emunah.
MW13 says:oomis1105 & fabie – Finding your soulmate is very nice, but I cannot think what the mitzva in that may be. Piru u’rivu, however, is chiyuv mi’dioraysah, and therefore I believe it is the primary purpose of marriage. “
Finding your soulmate is more than “nice.” It is a biological and spiritual imperative. While pru urvu is a chiyuv, nonetheless not all people are able to mekayeim that mitzvah and they are STILL allowed to marry each other. Childless couples R”L, do not HAVE to divorce (the husband MAY divorce his wife if he chooses, after ten years with no children – though it could be due to something wrong with him – but he does not have to). Elderly people may marry, even for the FIRST time (probably a rarity, though), when there is absolutely no chance in the present day world that they will be fruitful and multiply, nor would they want to at that age. Women who have had hysterectomies, do not have to be divorced. They continue in their marriages (assuming the marriages are good ones), and intimacy is still very much a part of life. If having children were THE reason for getting married, none of these marriages would be permissible. If a man has an accident and is no longer able to be a husband in all respects, does his wife demand a divorce? Maybe some women would, but not if they truly cared for their husbands. My father-in-law of very blessed memory, was not frum, and took care of my invalid mother-in-law for the last thirty-five years of their marriage. She was 42 when she had a devastating stroke that left her paralyzed. They had a very happy marriage, but I am certain there were some very serious changes in their life together after that. And they were both young.
Marriage is about or should be about two people making a holy life together with mutual love,respect, and love of Torah. Children, while a very important aspect of marriage today, only help to further cement the bond between husband and wife. But if the bond is not already there, the piruah and rivyah will not make that marriage good. Unlike other religions, Judaism recognizes that physicality is VERY much a part of a Torahdig life. It is part of the kesubah.
Marriage is a good thing by virtue of Hashem saying, “Lo tov heyos adam l’vado.” There is no other reason. A good dog is a companion, too, but unless one can communicate with it, he is still l’vado.It is not good to be a bodaid. That’s how people get into trouble.
“Correct OOmis. One is considered to be incomplete without a spouse. “
True, and when he does get married, then he is really finished!
(I didn;t read all the posts through, so if anyone else said this first, yasher koach on your sense of humor).
“When my oldest went to sleep last night she had twice as many sisters as brothers. When she woke up this morning she had the same amount of brothers and sisters.”
When she worke up, she had the exact same amount of brothers and sisters as she had the night before.
“im sorry if this sounds offensive but that is why the gemara says nashim daatan kalos “
Oh brother! Are you certain what “kalos daas” means?
MW13, btw, I specified that R’ Gershom made a TAKANAH (takana=halacha and is not just an opinion), so I did not make light of it as you implied. Other Rabbanim state their personal, no-halachic opinions (as with the nail polish issue), and some of us seem to take those opinions as Torah m’Sinai, when it is not. R’ Gershom obviously had the authority to issue such a takanah, because it has gone on for a long, long time, with no one overturning it (though I had heard somewhere that the time limit for the takanah’s being in force has expired).
R’ Gershom had more than one wife at a time. It did not work out well. The Torah however, permits a man to have two wives simultaneously, with halachic guidelines to doing so. So Hashem apparently did not have a problem with this. I am not complaining, I would not want another woman in my household, either.
If you wrap challahs while warm, they will get soggy from the steam that condenses.
I always believed that the primary purpose of marriage is for building a bayis ne’eman. Procreation is a natural result that flows from that, but we do not forbid marriage between people who cannot procreate (i.e., the elderly).
“According to you, why did the Rabbonim make the issurim of yichud, negiah, etc? Why didn’t they “have faith” in the people?”
It’s not according to me, but it is an opinion with which I concur, that in those times when men and women were separated most of the time, it WAS potentially enticing for them to be in yichud together, and they could not be trusted. The laws regarding concubines and more than one wife, sleeping with zonas (look at Yehudah and Tamar’s story), were culturally very different, and I imagine the taivahs were succumbed to more easily. I am not saying NO one misbehaves or sins. Only a fool would think that. But I think we attribute negative feelings to all people, and presume they are all about to commit arayos, and I think that is the wrong way to look at someone. Maybe we should not let people buy food in the supermarket, eiother. they might eat fleishigs and milchigs together. That cheeseburger smelled mighty tempting.
Dov – platonic is the word you meant. I would not presume to disagree with R’ Moshe, but R’ Moshe ZT”L had mixed seating at his simcha. I have had platonic friends all my life, and believe me there were no hirhurim on my side, and if there were any on the part of my male friends, they never let on in any way. They were all gentlemen. The same hirhurim you are worried about can also occur in a dating relationship or even in SHul on Shabbos. Do you think no guy has ever obsessed over the girl that did not go out with him again, when he was eager to see HER a second time? If someone wants to have thoughts, he will have them irrespective of whether or not he is in a mixed group.
It is how we ACT, in spite of our thoughts, that defines us as menschen or not. And while hirhurei haleiv can be a problem (and there was a korban given for that), realistically, a hirhur can appear any time, and in this day and age, I believe it is more likely when one is NOT used to being around opposite gendered people. I suppose we have to agree to disagree. Talk to me in about thirty years or so, and we’ll see how we both feel on the subject. (hope I’m still around, if Moshiach has not come by then)
Haleivi, I don’t turn anything into personal glimpses. My personal glimpses color my opinions of how different rabbonim do not seem to be able to reach a consensus at times, solely based on their PERSONAL opinions about an issue, and NOT at all based in the actual halacha. If you don’t like my expressing my opinion, so be it. But please do not mistake my opinion on someone else’s opinion (and not actual Jewish law), to be that I do not like a Mishna. This has nothing to do with my like or dislike, but everything to do with the interpretation of something in the context of what it meant at the time when it was said.
And men and women apparently had VERY little to do with each other (especially if they followed that mishna strictly), because men were either working or learning all day or some mix therof. Their interactions in the Gemarah might be typical; I am not sure I would use the word “normal,” in the specific sense that we use that word today. What was normal then, is not necessarily considered normal by present day standards in the modern machmir world. And conversely, what the chareidi world considers normal today was possibly not even DONE in yesteryears.
BTW I will state FTR, I am not a feminist. I do not feel that the Torah has something against women. I do think that some men do, however, in the rabbinic sphere, and if you do not believe that to be true, then you are a tad naive. My example with the nail polish, was just one of many, and it was just a naarishkeit. When one asks for a specific p’sak and the response is why does she need to wear it in the first place, that is not being a responsible rov.
Helpful, you are not supposed to have a chashash on someone for no reason. You are supposed to be dan l’chaf zechus. We do not presume people will sin every chance they get. We expect Bnei Torah to act as Bnei Torah. I guess I have more faith in them than you do. And by the way, in my circles it would be very hard to NOT know if one’s kids were misbehaving. When kids start sneaking around (and in homes where they are brought up to be open and are trusted) ANY parent can immediately tell when something is off with a child. I don;t know how old you are, or if you have kids, but whenever one of mine was up to something (when a child, of course) I immediately knew it. There is just a difference in that child,a look. Something. It cannot be hidden, when there is a normal relationship between parent and child.
“i’m sorry but what’s “cooties”
It’s the equivalent of having lice or some disgusting rash, or anything really nasty that someone could catch from another person (I don’t think there actually IS something called cooties IRL, or it is just a nickname for the things I mentioned).