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“and the AM hours are when many teens are up and about).’
Boy oh boy – not MY teens, when they were teens. Don’t parents believe in curfews anymore????
“However, many of us feel that it is not worth the aveiros that will undoubtedly occur.”
As I have said all along, some of you have such little faith in our frum kids. My friends’ children, all of whom are very frum and shomrei the mitzvos related to tznius, and my own children, are quite used to speaking and mixing with the opposite gender. It really is sad that our society has confused friendship and normal conversation with an inevitable lead in to arayos.
Health, my daughters have been to such home-based get-togethers. The boys sat on one side, the girls on another, and the shiur was NOT conducive to a relaxed atmosphere. they would do better to have someone like the author of the book about Shidduch Dating, get up and speak, encouraging them to participate in a question and answer session. That is a great way to break the ice and have the boys and girls suss out what type of personalities are present.
“Oomis1105, can you please provide some examples of what would be tactful, versus not? I have several friends and relatives who are around 30 with siblings younger then them who are engaged or married and I just don’t know the proper things to say/do.
Thanks! “
Never say the following:
“Don’t worry, dear. Yout turn will come, too.”
“Someone even BETTER is in store for you!”
“Maybe you should try a dating service.”
“This must be hard for your parents.” (Yes, I have heard all the above!)
Personally, I think a simple mazel tov is sufficient to say to the older unmarried sib. Maybe (depending on the personality of the single, I might also say, ” May Hashem bless you with much simcha.” Sometimes the less said, the better. IF the single sib engages in a conversation about his or her status, then you can judge whether or not to say words of chizuk. But see the above list and DO NOT EVER SAY THAT TO ANYONE. It really hurts them. I have a relative who couldn;t even stand to hear people say, “Im Yirtzeh Hashem by you.” When nothing is happening and one is in emotional pain, it is very hard to hear the very real bracha in that expression.
“No, the Rabbonim have the right and the ability to figure out why Hashem said what He did, and then to apply that principle to other cases as well. This is how the Rabbonim have figured out what the halacha should be for thousands of years, ever since Hashem stopped talking straight to the “
And clearly not all wer or are in agreement with each other as to how that principle is applied, or we would not be having this discussion.
Mayan Dvash, why can singles meet at an event that does NOT involve a Dvar Torah? The dynamics of a shiur are very different from the dynamics of a social event. Why, if it must be a lecture, does it necessarily have to a Torah lecture? I am not chalilh against D”T (FAR from it), but it seems to me that if the lecture was about some issue of general interest i.e., politics, medical ethics, current events, that it might lend itself to a wider variety of discussion among the singles. Not everyone can intelligently discuss Torah, sad to say, but virtually every To, Dick, and Heshy has an opinion on politics.
Re: the runny noses — that question, believe it or not, is not so out of line if a)the fear was that they have a STRONG family history or allergies, which CAN be problematic and is hereditary, or b) they were commenting that the children in that family always seem ill and not well cared-for, because their noses are always runny.
” This lady replied, “Well thats exactly how your son will remain- single if you ask such a stupid question.” And she promptly hung up the phone. “
Yasher koach ro her.
JMO, for what it’s worth – younger siblings should not have to lose out on their happiness just because their older sib was not as fortunate to find his/her bashert yet. My younger sister got married five years before I did. My youngest daughter got married before my older daughters who are not yet married. Had she not done so four years ago, I would have been deprived of the pleasure of my two year old granddaughter’s company every day.
That being said, I am also against allowing a younger sibling to date at a very early age (i.e. 18), when there are older FEMALE sibs in the parsha who are not married. It won’t kill the younger sib to wait another couple of years to give the older one a chance to meet someone first. I know from experience that as happy as you are for that younger sib, it is painful to deal with all the thoughtless commentary by people who don’t know what “tact” means.
These posts are just making me so sad… People are unbelievably petty.
I guess that because I try to be respectful of all people, Jew and non-Jew alike, the problem has never come up with me. But Jews are less likely to have the type of control that we saw in Germany. There was a story told of a Rov who every morning would see his (anti-Semitic) neighbor, when he left for shul and would greet him, “Good morning Herr Schmidt.” The neighbor barely grunted a response. nevertheless, the Yid continued to greet him warmly every morning, and this went on for some time.
The Nazis came to power and the Rov was taken along with all the Jews of his town and brought to the camps. AS Jews were being sent to the gas chambers, he noticed his neighbor, now decked out in Nazi regalia. As always, he greeted him, “Good morning, Herr Schmidt.” The Nazi looked at him, and pointed away from the death chamber and his life was spared.
It may be really distasteful to us as Jews, but this is not a Jewish country (despite what the media would like to think). We must be very much aware that our lives are sometimes dependent upon the non-Jews, much as it galls us, and therefore we are obligated to be concerned that we do not tip the scales even more against us.
Any parent hitting a baby that young unless the baby is choking chalilah, SHOULD have the baby removed ASAP.
Perhaps there are two purposes? Perhaps there is an issue of covering the hair to symbolize the fact that she is married.
And beyond that, the normal laws of Tzinius of any clothing item apply – the fine line between between put to together and showy?
Is that a possibility, Oomis? “
Anything in life is possible. But unless we are certain that the covering hair is for reasons of tznius, we should not be telling that to people as absolute fact of halacha. It sounds good, but that does not make it the reason. If a woman is unmarried at age 45, does she not have to show dignity and tznius also?
BTW, the obligation to cover the hair (as I was taught ) comes after the Cjhosson and Kallah have been intimate. Some peope feel that being in the Yichud room for some amount of time qualifies also.
APY, for the record, there are Poskim who matir for divorced and widowed ladies to NOT cover their hair, so that they may find shidduchim. Not all such ladies continue to cover it.
The bottom line in married women covering their hair by any means, is to know why the hair must be covered> If it is to make them less attractive, then pretty wigs SHOULD be assur. If, the rationale is just in order to remind women that they are married, then it makes no difference WHAT they use to cover it or even how attractive that covering is. If Hashem did not say to Moshe Rabbeinu to tell women to cover their hair “so that they will be less attractive to men other than their own husbands,” then this entire conversation seems moot.
Avram MD, I think you wrote a beautiful and well-thought-out post. I happen to believe that sof kol sof, the Tanna was NOT of the mindset that you would like to attribute to him, because he lived in a time when men and women had relatively little to do with each other in a social context. Possibly, some women went to sell or buy in the market place, but there was not so much interaction. That really held true for many societies. I think the Tanna simply did not believe women and men should have much contact. And many people issued their opinions because they had miserable marriages (the takanah of Rabbeinu Gershom re: marriage to no more than one wife at a time, comes to mind).
I do not mean to sound disrespectful in any way either to our holy Tannaim, to the Mishneh, or to hashkafos of people of yesteryear. Neither do I want to be disrespected myself for wanting to make a clear distinction between the actual halacha and (even heiligeh) people’s personal viewpoints that may be heavily biased because of cultural influences of their time period.
I once asked a shailah of a Rov on behalf of some women who did not carefully remove their nail polish before going to the Mikveh. His response to me was not the p’sak kosher or posul tevilah, but rather, “There is absolutely no reason why women need to wear nail polish!” Whether he is right to feel that way or not, that was not the shailah I asked him, and it is irrelevant to halacha l’maiseh.
“I asked my Rebbe if I should go out with her anyway in order to not hurt her feelings”
Lucky Mrs. Dr. Pepper, to have such a thoughtful husband.
Jose, the fact remains, we live in a goyishe world, especially here in the USA, and we are often at the mercy of the whims of goyishe leaders, who are influenced by what their constituency wants. If we offend that constituency ONCE, that is what they remember – not the countless chassadim that the Jewish community does for the non-Jewish world. (Think about the Civil Rights Movement and how blacks regard Jews today).
Jew are at the forefront of virtually every major medical and scientific breakthrough. We are second to none in tzedaka. But let ONE BErnie Madoff get through, and it is all for nothing. All they can think bout is the Jew. Why do you think the story of Jonathan Pollard or Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin is so tragic? Had neither of them been Jews (and had Rubashkin not been FRUM), the stories would have ended differently, of that I have no doubt. I still have hopes that HAshem will be Meracheim on them.
It’s not pleasant that we have to watch our Ps and Qs with the non-Jewish world, but it is extremely naive to think otherwise.
“i mamish don’t know where you come from! it’s much much much healthier, that the children grow up separately and when the time comes, they go out and get married. Everyone has taavos whether they are exposed to the opposite gender/not. What shtusim!”
SD, you feel that way possibly because you were brought up with that type of thinking. i was brought up in a frum environment where the genders mixed at every family get-together, Shabbos meal, simcha, etc. I went to a mixed yeshivah, but the boys were in one building and the girls in another. I think I was educated pretty well, both secularly AND Limudei Kodesh, and I was brought up to not be narrow-minded (not accusing you of being n-m, just saying it about myself).
It most certainly is not healthier to grow up believing that the opposite gender is an aveira waiting to happen. Did you read what you wrote? They should grow up separately and when the time comes, they go out and get married. Do you have any idea how many girls are terrified of starting to date for tachlis, after years of being totally separate from even talking to boys??? They never learned how to swim or even wade in knee deeep water, but they are being tossed overboard into the ocean and expected to win the Olympics! How much better if boys and girls can look at each other as friends, date in a healthy and non-pressured way, and get married to someone with whom they really enjoy conversing (oh wait a minute, you probably also feel that talking too much together is a bad idea. Sorry).
It is not shtuyos that I feel this way. I have observed a lot over the last almost six decades, and what I see today only serves to reinforce what I believe. I am profoundly sad that kids are not being brought up more like the way we were in my childhood and teen years. No one in my peer group would have accused someone of saying “shtusim,” for expressing an opinion.By the way, you mentioned where did I come from – I grew up in East New York.
Wolf, I had my son do somewhat the same thing, except in our case, he went up to each of them personally at the end of the simcha to thank them. I like the idea that you had them write thank you notes.
Isn’t the whole al tarbeh issue the opinion of a specific Tannah ?(maybe I am mistaken, but that’s what’s I have in my memory bank).
If I am not mistaken, however, and the phrase was uttered by one rov, it is not necessarily halacha, but rather, his personal hashkafa. If that is the case, we are not bound by someone else’s personal hashkafa regarding something being “better to do or not do.” We are bound by what Hashem tells us we have to do or not do.
Dr. Pepper, that was worth repeating that post!!!! I am still laughing (and crying, because unfortunately there are such shvigers out there), from the last time I rad this.
I remembre posting that someone called me about a shidduch for her son, to enquire about a lovely young lady whom I knew since birth. I was asked all types of really irrelevant questions (what type of jobs do her in-law siblings hold, are her parents calm people (and if they weren’t, would a person who was given as the girl’s personal “reference” answer that?), etc. After patiently answering her foolish questions for almost half an hour, and emphasizing what a sweet, beautiful (inside and out), baalas middos this girl is, this was the only comment she made. “But I heard the girl is very short (true, she is 5′ tall), and I don’t want short grandchildren!”
After mamesh wasting so much of my time on the phone with her, with her mind made up from the outset, all I could think to say was, “How tall or short our children and grandchildren will be is up to the Aibishter. Tall parents have been known to produce short kids, and short parents have had tall ones or any combination thereof. This girl is a special, beautiful, smart, and wonderful girl from a wonderful, loving family. If that’s not what you are looking for, then I guess there is nothing left for me to say. The boy who gets her will be very lucky. Hatzlacha rabbah.” And I hung up.
Exactly when was it that Hashem said it is assur for boys and girls to talk to each other ort sit together at a simcha? Please quote me HASHEM’S exact words on the subject, not some source in some obscure sefer somewhere that was not based on halacha, but rather on the personal feelings of its author. ALL of kall Yisroel stood together at Har Sinai. They all marched together in the midbar.
And yes, Hashem knows my kids far better than I do, but I know them better than the Gedolim who never met them, do.
Thank you very much, Max well. This is one of my favorite nigunim, and the video brought me to tears, between the beautiful music, the meaningful lyrics, and of course, the view of Yerushalayim Hakedosha.
ToTi, do you honestly think women do not notice jewelry when they are sitting only with women? And what do you think we are talking about in those single gender groups, OUR HUSBANDS and children. And if you think we have nothing better to do than compare our friends’ husbands physiques to our own husband’s than you really do not think much of us ladies, I guess. Women are not as shallow as that, for the most part.
Jose, we live unfortunately (most of us, anyway) in Galus, a Goyishe Galus, and therefore we need to be especially mindful that we do not make a chillul Hashem that in addition to being a terrible aveira, which is bad enough, can also be used against us.
Don’t feel embarrassed, I also have no idea except for the last line. It is a BEAUTIFUL nigun, no? We use it for zemiros.
i know this is irrelevant…but sorry oomis, SJSinNYC…cant respond to your posts in this one 😀 “
I am moichel you!!!! 🙂
This is without discussing the “innovators” who do not rely on mesorah at all, their basis for halachic decisions are “feelings” or being politically correct or to try to fit in with the corrupt popular culture. “
You are absolutely right about that. The main idea is that the poseik you ask should be a talmid chochum who is emesdig in his learning and knows what he is talking about. If he is paskening based on his “feelings,” he is not paskening, he is re-creating.
I find very often that those who make the biggest issues on blogs about chumros are the kulah shoppers.”
Jose, I make a big issue about it, and I am most definitely NOT a kulah shopper, so you are mistaken in that. I am personlly machmir on many things, but that neither makes me a better Yid, nor a more observant one. If our Gedolim decreed certain chumros as halacha, then they ahve the authority to do so. But you know what, the Gedolim once upon a time wanted to include potatoes as kitniyos for ashkenazim. Do you know what such a chumrah would have done to klal Yisroel? Was it kulah shopping when they ultimately decided that would be a VERY bad decision? No it wasn’t, because the halacha is that potatoes are not kitniyos l’chatchilah. The l’chatchilah is the inyan. And if something is said to be mutar b’dieved, that might be a kulah, but the action could not have been strictly assur. More like a “better not to” type of thing.
“No, it is not acceptable to serve cereal and milk for supper, and no, changing the linen when the seasons change is too late.”
Oops!!!!! SERIOUSLY?????? 🙂
“(go around trying to find the most meikel shitah in everything).”
I need to comment on this, because the sense I get from this comment is that you somehow give off the idea that you believe that to be mekeil is not following the halacha. There is a religious spectrum of halachic observance, but from one end to the other, the observance is kosher and according to Ratzon Hashem. Being mekeil IS following the halacha. If you are mekeil and NOT following the Halacha that Hashem intended, then you are not being mekeil at all, you are being oveir on the halacha. Mekeil does not equal oveir halacha (I cannot say that too often).
So if the halacha demands a minimum action, that action IS the one Hashem commanded us to do, and anything else we choose to do to be more strict, is actually NOT what He required of us. I am not getting into the reasons for being needing to be stricter or not. We all know about gedarim, and protecting the mitzvah, etc. etc. I am specifically trying to emphasize an idea that some people refuse to understand or accept, that being mekeil is not a bad thing. As long as it totally conforms to halacha, a Jew who is mekeil is doing the right thing in Hashem’s eyes. It is only in the eyes of people, that we think being machmir is holier. And I am machmir in many things, for whatever reasons, but I do not think that makes me a better Jew than someone who does not do those same things.
It’s like how I feel about people asking me in the summer if I take early Shabbos or late Shabbos. I always respond, if I took late Shabbos that would make me mechallel Shabbos.
Did not ALL our mefarshim have RH”K? Most do not agree with each other, especially Ramban and Rashi. Their perushim are very important and give us a tremendous understanding of what the Torah probably means by a given expression, but not everything can be correct, especially when two or three opinions are completely opposite. They are opinions, not halacha. It does not matter how old Rivka was, waht matters is that she was an amazing person, even as a young child, filled with chessed and sensitivity, and demonstrated the right middos that made her deserving to be one of the Emahos.
MW13, I put key words in caps, ebcause I want to emphasize them in the way I do when I am saying those words aloud.
You also presume incorrectly about me. I never said there are no inherent yetzer hara for arayos in people. What I (thought I had) distinctly said is that that taivah becomes more obvious when the genders do not mix in a natural way. When children grow up in a naturally mixed environment, they do not look at each other the same way that that someone does who has never been allowed to have a normal social relationship with a female or male (depending on their opposite gender). Of course ALL people have taivos for arayos, if we did not, the species would not continue. But the fear some posters here have of boys and girls having a normal conversation with each other in a mixed group, seems to me to be unnecessary. Most kids who are brought up frum, have a strong moral core (that 60% thing is nonsense, and motzi shem ra on 60% of our frum kids). If you don’t believe that, then don’t. My experience tells me that my observations are reasonable.
“OOmis -It’s funny what you said over from your father. I have been saying for years that in our generation -they make the ikkur toful & the toful ikkur! “
What can I say, GREAT minds with but a single thought…
What about reading Artscroll meforshim between the Aliyos (i.e. when the person is being called up and general mi sheberachs – not for refuos – are being made).
Why – because the instinctive thing people believe when they don’t get a second date is that the other person did not find them attractive.
“I don’t see why that should be the case if chumros are used correctly (kept for the right reasons and not imposed upon others).”
The way to know if someone’s personal chumrah is being kept correctly and for the right reason, is if that person is not making a big display of doing his chumrah. If everyone knows about it, then maybe his reason is a gaivehdig one, so that everyone will look at what a tzassik he is (and mind you, this might even be subconscious on his part). Certainly as soon as someone decides other people who do NOT follow the same chumrah are not as frum as he is, he is already in the wrong.
We are talking about FRUM boys and girls of an age to get married sitting at a table together, talking together, and eating a meal – NOT about going over to The Dark Side…
You assume that our young people are all just chomping at the bit to commit some unnameable aveiros. Maybe some of them ARE, and they would do it regardless. Most frum kids who are brought up in a normal environment where everything is not assered to them every five minutes (when it is not intrinsically assur from Hashem), do NOT behave in the way that you fear. Yes, maybe SOMEONE will, but it is not because of mixing the genders in a public place, it is because there is a fundamental behavior censor chip missing from them. JMO, and I grew up in a very frum environment where we ALWAYS had mixed groups. No one went off the derech, and I think we all made our parents proud.
I meant to add, we ALL make mistakes, so once you have tried to rectify it as best as you can, let it go and learn from the experience. Please stop beating yourself up.
I would speak candidly with the shadchan and tell her that you had charata about misspeaking. Tell her everything you told us, and why it is important for your family’s sake, not to repeat what you told her. Then take this as an object lesson, that “N’tzor l’shoncha meira, is not only about L”H, but from saying things that can lead to bad situations. I would also bite the bullet and apologize to my parents for the embarrassment they might be feeling, if any.
“That Rivkah was 3 years old “
It’s very clear she musta been born during Adar Sheini and therefore as her real birthday didn’t come around too often, she was really more like 12 years old.
Shlomozalman, that’s very nice, but not usual or excpected.
Pahutah has the right idea, it is a matter of mesnchlechkeit, not a chasunah issue. Also, when you compliment a wait staff member to the boss (and I do it in restaurants all the time, as it is quite easy to find the manager, not as easy to do it at a simcha), it lets them know they have hired a valuable employee, and perhaps it will make the manager look at that employee with a bit more appreciation. So often people complain when things are NOT done as they wish, but how often do we acknowledge when someone gets it right?
I also call the flower guy after my daughter’s wedding (we used a flower gemach rental in Boro Park), the owner/manager was such a pleasure to deal with and they did a magnificent job at an extremely fair price. When I called him the next day to thank him for the beautiful work they did to enhance our simcha, he was astonished, and his response was, “WHAT a nice lady you are! I can count on the fingers of one hand how many people have ever called me back in all the years that I am doing this.” I expressed my surprise that this was the case, because my husband and I are very big on hakoras hatov, but apparently some folks feel if they paid for it, they deserve the thanks for giving the guy parnassah. I don’t feelt hat way.
Surprisingly, many rebbeim in our Yeshivos do NOT have semicha. They are called rabbi so-and-so, and have the knowledge and limud, but are not musmachim.
It is simply a uniform for Bnei Torah, as Yidden are supposed to have a uniform”
Who says so? My son is also a Ben Torah, and he wears nicely pressed, clean colored shirts, striped shirts, plaid shirts, solid color shirts, AND white shirts, with beautiful ties, and ALWAYS looks like a real mensch. He is dressed for Shul or work as one would dress for court, or to meet the President. But not solely in white shirts.
The problem with chumros is that people tend to forget what their priorities should be. “Chalav stam” should not be more of a deterrent than “lo sigzol”.
That was a better exampler than mine.
I am not naive. I believe that kids who are brought up properly will typically act properly. Will EVERY single frum kid who is brought up properly NEVER commit an aveira? No, and it WOULD be naive to think so. BUT,plenty of kid brought up in extremely separated environments are faced with the same taivos, and you know what – their lack of normal interaction with someone of a different gender, can and does lead to the commission of those same aveiros. They are just more secretive about it. When they rebel, they rebel in spades.
I do have faith in my children, and that faith has never let me down, because THEY have not let me down. I don’t need to watch my adult children 24/7 to know NONE of them will walk into a bar to meet a girl or guy, and in fact, ALL of them think it is very sleazy to sit in a lounge on a shidduch date, where OTHER people are meeting and drinking in order to pick up people.
“No, but the Rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to paskan what the halacha is. “
I do not agree with this statement 100%. There are many baalebatim who are equally qualified in their Torah knowledge. BUT (and this is a big caveat) those laypeople do not have the halachic AUTHORITY to pasken, even when they do know the halacha. And wasn’t one of our Gedolim (was it the Chofetz Chaim??? I might be wrong about that) a man who never even received smicha? Whoever that talmid chochom was, I doubt any of us would have the nerve to accuse him of being less qualified than a “bona fide” rov.
So much wisdom has been posted in just a few comments. My father O”H used to tell me that the biggest danger in Yiddishkeit is when people make the tafeil the ikkar and the ikkar is made tafeil.
When the ikkar of halacha says something is muttar, and then someone comes along and decides to be machmir on something related to that halacha, something that there is no real halachic reason to do (like not wearing colored shirts), that is making something basically rather trivial into a be-all and end-all, which by itself actually can result in trivializing the very important concept that a Ben Torah should dress with derech eretz. Does it REALLY matter to Hashem if the shirt is white, as long as it is clean, neat, pressed and worn by someone who has the right hashkafa towards learning and mktzvos? (Don’t bother to answer, because if you believe the answer is “Yes,” you have proved my point to me).
Re: being machmir out of doubt – we always must ask a shailah when there is a doubt. I mentioned on another thread quite a while ago, that something happened and I was faced with a halachic issue. I started to decide to simply be machmir on myself about it, but then realized I shoukld still ask my rov the shailah. Surprisingly, his p’sak was nowhere in the chumrah ballpark in which I would have put myself, and when I told him that I would have been way more strict about the inyan, he replied, “Anyone can be machmir. It takes someone who REALLY knows the halacha to tell when it is muttar.”
I recently thanked the waitress who served our table at a chasunah which I attended, and then went to her supervisor (the maitre d’ or manager, not sure what his title was) specifically to tell him what an efficient, pleasant, and truly excellent employee she had been. He seemed astonished that someone would take the time to do that, but i am astonished that more people do NOT do it. We don’t tip the wait staff at a simcha, so at the very least we can make them look good in their boss’ eyes, especially when they have given superb service to us.