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Truth,
After 1948 who else held that the State was literally a ma’aseh Satan that was holding back Moshiach? The overwhelming majority of both Israeli and American gedolim viewed it as a new reality that had to be dealt with.
I realize that people like Joseph love jumping up and down with glee anytime a Jew is hurt or killed in Israel. However, that doesn’t come from their great holiness, only their great hatefulness.
Truth,
I’ve never opened Vayoel Moshe, nor do I ever intend to. I’m not criticizing it but the Satmar Rebbe’s, zt”l view on the State of Israel was that of a da’as yochid and the only people bound by it are his followers. So people like Joseph who refer to it ad nauseam are simply looking for excuses to hate other Jews.
Oh goody!
Between this thread and the one about Religious Zionism, we can read more of Joseph’s hate-filled posts quoting V’yoel Moshe like it’s the holy grail!
RSo,
Cute, but no cigar. Besides, I have too much respect for the memory of the Rebbe, zt”l to say he was a navi, since nowadays only a shoteh can have prophecy.
It should be noted that when nevuah existed, a Jew who experienced prophecy in Eretz Yisrael could then experience it anywhere else in the world. Classic examples are Yonah and Yechezkel.
Chat,
Your childish cutting-and-pasting of sources that supposedly confirm your warped views help me understand Harav Shach’s zt”l fierce opposition to the Rebbe’s Rambam campaign. He foresaw that Chabad would very simplistically learn Mishne Torah, which needs to be studied in great depth, then deliberately corrupt and misuse it to confirm their cultish dogmas.
Truly, chacham adif minavi!
Chat,
You cherry-pick words from sources and intricately twist them like a pretzel to confirm the very stubbornly cultish dogma that has been built around your departed Rebbe. It’s so sad to see what passes for learning among Lubavitchers, who were once a force to be reckoned in the Torah world. In our day and age when Torah is so accessible to all Jews, Chabad has chosen to dumb themselves down like the peasants of old.
Your comments remind me of the nursery rhyme that simple parents would sing to their children about their Rebbe:
“Er veist ven du shloft, er veist ven du vakst, er veist ven du bist shlecht oder gut, az zeinen gut!”
“read Shoftim 1991(navuah) read Mishpatim 1992, vayeira 1992, Chayei Sarah 1992, balak 1991, Tazria metora 1991 in likkutei sichos and Rabbeinu shebebavel kuntreis(moshiach”
Chat,
No, your twisted interpretation is that the Rebbe claimed he was a navi and Moshiach. Just as you claim that “Hashem made an oath that Moshiach won’t die” but can’t back it up.
So, after over 850 posts on this topic it seems that most reasonable and rational people would agree:
– the Rebbe was a talmid chacham who was niftar and buried on 3 Tamuz 5754
– there are no actual sources that he ever claimed to be a navi or Moshiach
– there were some gedolim who said complimentary things about him but none who claimed he was a navi or Moshiach
– most Orthodox Jews never accepted him as their leader and certainly don’t now
Almost twenty-four years later a majority of Chabad still insists on arguing these points due to the personality cult they built around their Rebbe. While, as Rav Aharon Feldman wrote, this doesn’t automatically make them heretics, it certainly raises serious questions about their judgment and rationality.
How sad that a movement which continues to do so much selfless good is so fundamentally flawed!
Gaon,
I’m fine with the Ramban; the issue I raised is with Chat specifically saying that “Hashem took an oath that Moshiach can’t die”. Where in the world does he get that?
Chat,
You seem to be trying to avoid answering the following:
In three-thousand years, the only Moshiach of a generation who lived forever is the Rebbe, who you agreed was buried on 3 Tamuz 5754?
And where does it specifically say that Hashem took an oath that Moshiach can’t die?
“THE moshiach will live forever tho and based on everything there are those that say it applies to the Rebbe”
Chat,
So you’re actually saying that in three-thousand years, the only Moshiach of a generation who lived forever is the Rebbe, who you agreed was buried on 3 Tamuz 5754?
You STILL have not answered where does it specifically say that Hashem took an oath that Moshiach can’t die!
“what other moshiachs?”
Chat,
In every generation there has been someone who would have been Moshiach if we were worthy. If Moshiach can’t die, where is King Chizkiyahu, who was designated for his generation? Also, where does it specifically say that Hashem took an oath that Moshiach can’t die?
You should be able to answer these very simple questions simply, without very lengthy circular logic and hyperbole.
“They therefore said the oath of hashem that moshiach will live forever applies to the Rebbe”
What is the exact source of Hashem taking an oath that Moshiach would live forever? Also, if that’s the case, where are all the Moshiach’s from the past three-thousand years, who should also be living forever?
“Lo haya histalkus, shtuiot! B’Gimmel Tammuz lo kara shoom dvar”
Chat,
Since CS seems to be reluctant to answer these questions, please clarify this matter for us. Why did they bury an empty aron? If he’s alive, where is he? Is he hiding or being hidden against his will? Does he still eat, drink, sleep and have bodily needs? Is he still on this earth but invisible?
“Looking at a Rebbe picture before daavening each morning add more chayis to your day and strengthens your yiddishkeit and chassiddishkeit”
770,
Your comments remind me of a beautiful nursery rhyme that chassidishe parents would sing to their children about their Rebbe:
“Er veist ven du shloft, er veist ven du vakst, er veist ven du bist shlecht oder gut, az zeinen gut!”
“Although your posts have generally not been the most respectful, here I’ll address you, because the being alive point can use some clarification”
CS,
Please do clarify. Why did they bury an empty aron? If he’s alive, where is he? Is he hiding or being hidden against his will? Does he still eat, drink and have bodily needs? Is he still on this earth but invisible?
“Reb Yoel Kahn, much to Seichal Yashars dismay, is on video saying nothing happened gimmel tammuz. He is here just as before”
If they buried an empty coffin, he’s alive and he’s Moshiach, then where did he go? Why isn’t anyone out there trying to actually find him? Is he hiding? Is he being hidden against his will? Is there a giant conspiracy? I’m so confused!
“Yaakov avinu lo mes IS literal”
Chat,
Thanks so much again for proving my point!
“I noted earlier that chassidus Chabad has a history that dates back many generations of deifying their leaders.”
TLIK,
You’re absolutely correct. The sefer “Ashkavta D’Rebbe”, written by Rabbi Moshe Dovber Rivkin about the passing of the Rebbe Rashab, zt”l in 1920, records that Lubavitcher Kohanim deliberately came into forbidden contact with the niftar. They did so because they interpreted the phrase “Yakov Avinu Lo Meis” literally and then applied it to their Rebbe.
The followers of no other movement, whether Chassidim or Misnagdim, Ashkenazim or Sefardim, have ever acted in this shocking manner. So unfortunately, this kind of nutty deification is nothing new to them.
Bottom line, Chabad can loudly make whatever twisted arguments they’d like about the Rebbe being the Messiah. The rest of the Jewish world will NEVER accept it.
truncated
MoshiachChat,
Then it’s OK to sometimes refer to the Rebbe as “Schneerson”, which is how he referred to himself? Or will that get you all wound-up? Please display true ahavas yisrael and always extend the same respect to other Rabbonim that you expect for your own.
“…lest people jump to the conclusion that you don’t respect them since they are not Chabad Rabbanim”
Winnie,
That’s a long-standing issue. I recall thirty-five years ago, a son-in-law of one of the leading Chabad families asked me how “Shneur Kotler” was doing, during his final illness.
“Aderabe, I’m just trying to create more achdus by explaining where we are coming from,,,”
CS,
The only thing that these nine pages of posts have accomplished, is to convince the rest of Klal Yisrael that Chabad is comprised of the nicest mental patients that one can ever hope to meet. Some may consider that achdus but you should probably ask that this thread be closed.
“Ur list is nonsense”
Thanks! Coming from you that only makes my post more rational. As if arguing that a man who died over twenty-three years ago is going to rise up and declare himself the Messiah isn’t nonsense. Go take your medicine.
After eight pages of posts I think most rational people will agree:
1) The Rebbe was a talmid chacham but was never accepted by most of Klal Yisrael as its leader, let alone as its Messiah
2) The Rebbe passed away in 1994 and isn’t coming back until everyone else who passed away are reanimated during techiyas hameisim, after Moshiach arrives
3) Therefore, any consideration of his still being Moshiach is sick, delusional and hurts the (few?) remaining Chabad followers who haven’t succumbed to this tragic mental illness
4) Any further posts on this matter, pro or con, will only lead to more baseless hatred which will only delay the arrival of Moshiach
“Why do you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and the Baal HaTanya is not Moshiach? And that the Baal Shem Tov is not Moshiach”…
slonimer,
CS already explained that Moshiach clearly has to come from the “Dor Shvii”, which we conveniently still happen to be in, because the Rebbe hasn’t come yet. Whew, I’m still dizzy from all that circular logic!
After reading all of her very polite, well-formulated and knowledgeable posts on this topic, I am more horrified than ever at the warped mental state that Chabad has descended into. Yes, their outreach is unparalleled and truly done with misiras nefesh. But to read that most of them are infected to varying degrees with these sick delusions that the Rebbe, who (yes, deal with it) passed away in 1994, is still Moshiach, that’s literally nauseating!
“If projectiles are coming out of Gaza, maybe that’s because we imposed a 10 year blockade?”
It’s not just Israel that realizes that Hamas is a terrorist entity bent on slaughtering Jews, the US, the UK and the entire civilized world realize it also. Yet MTAB and his ilk defend them and blame Israel. I should be surprised but I’m not because they practice the very same kind of terrorism. They are nothing more than modern day biryonim who commit violence against Jews, just to make a point.
Syag,
I saw the sickening post and responded:
“Joseph is simply in denial that no Gedolei Yisroel initiated these protests. He has a habit of speaking falsehoods and putting words in other’s mouths. Falsely accusing others of anything from being a liar, heretic, sinner and evil is one of his hallmarks. He has a sordid history of making such accusations not only against individuals that he never met but against entire groups of Jews. It is his modus operandi in pushing his agenda against anyone whom he perceives as not toeing his rigid and warped view of Judaism. Unfortunately this is part of the remnants of his being raised in an intolerant and neurotic environment where the rest of the world is looked upon with suspicion, disdain and much worse. He never fully let go of these sad hashkafas.”
Thanks, YWN, for posting R. Hoffman’s article:
The Peleg Days of Rage: A Halachic Analysis (https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1388367/peleg-days-rage-halachic-analysis.html)
Despite the strident opinions of the great CR poskim such as Joseph, these protests are clearly against Halacha as well as a Chillul Hashem.
Joseph is simply in denial that no Gedolei Yisroel initiated these protests. He has a habit of speaking falsehoods and putting words in other’s mouths. Falsely accusing others of anything from being a liar, heretic, sinner and evil is one of his hallmarks. He has a sordid history of making such accusations not only against individuals that he never met but against entire groups of Jews. It is his modus operandi in pushing his agenda against anyone whom he perceives as not toeing his rigid and warped view of Judaism. Unfortunately this is part of the remnants of his being raised in an intolerant and neurotic environment where the rest of the world is looked upon with suspicion, disdain and much worse. He never fully let go of these sad hashkafas.
Joseph,
“My position is (and has been) very clear. Civil disobedience is only okay when a) the cause being fought for…”
Well, no surprise here. It was too much to hope that just as you challenged us to, you would unambiguously condemn all violent protesters for their thuggery. Regardless of their viewpoint or affiliation, including Peleg. Instead, you posted some pseudo-legalistic megilla.
Mods, why do you tolerate his infantile trolling? It only detracts from the CR and doesn’t benefit it in any way.
“Phil, do you condemn Meir Kahane for the thuggery that landed him in jail multiple times?”
I absolutely do, without any equivocation. Now, it’s your turn to unambiguously condemn all violent protesters for their thuggery, for hurting others in any way. Regardless of their viewpoint or affiliation, including Peleg.
Joseph,
Right now, I raise my voice, right here in the CR and state that I unambiguously condemn all violent protesters for their thuggery, for hurting others in any way. Regardless of their viewpoint or affiliation, whether the JDL or Peleg.
Now, are you man enough to do the same, without any equivocation, or are you just going to continue to troll?
Yet another great example of Jospeh’s mindless trolling. Harav Shteinman, Shlita and Harav Kanievsky, Shlita, the undisputed Gedolim of the Yeshiva world, have clearly stated that this is not the proper response to the Draft issues. Their psak is that young men are supposed to register and that such protests are not to be held.
The “authority” by which these mobs operate is a da’as yochid and they are acting this way because they are lazy and would rather have “fun” rioting than learn. It’s shameful that they claim to abhor violence and war against Arabs but have no problem raising their hands against fellow Jews.
Case in point, the shameful incident where a Peleg avreich walked into Harav Shteinman’s early morning Blatt shiur several years ago and physically assaulted him. How typical of this Erev Rav!
Here’e one:
Rebbetzin Zaks, a”h, youngest daughter of the Chofetz Chaim, zt”l, would often say, “Better that people should study my father’s seforim and not spend so much time studying the stories about him”.
The Coffee Room is a forum that at times discusses very important issues. This can elevate the passions of its participants and sometimes hurtful words are exchanged. It’s therefore very appropriate that forgiveness is requested and granted, especially at this solemn time of the year.
However, if a poster spews a constant stream of cruelty, there is no way they can repent. Whether this person is being sincere in their beliefs or just trolling. Even if they issue a sincere-sounding blanket apology. Many of those who were hurt will not see that apology or simply not choose to forgive, especially when entire groups of people were targeted.
Yom Kippur does not atone for sins committed against our fellow Jews. A person who so stridently judges, maligns, impugns and hurts others, both individually and collectively has placed themselves in a very precarious position.
“Apparently the corporal discipline worked on all of you. Tanach states and Shulchan Aruch paskens that corporal discipline must be used on children.”
Mods: Even if he’s joking, the cruelty demonstrated by Joseph’s comment, especially on this particularly sensitive thread, mandates that he be permanently banned from this site. In addition, please forward his contact information to a responsible party so they can investigate whether this unhinged individual presents a danger to family members and others.
I agree that that post was inappropriate, especially for this thread -29
If a defendant can’t afford a lawyer the government has to provide one. Also, given the following:
“‘We have a failure in our community that we have to address,’ Rabbi Aaron Kotler, leader of the world’s largest yeshiva outside of Israel told NJ.com. ‘Theft is wrong. We need to do better to educate people.’”
anyone who considers donating to this or similar funds should first consult with their local Orthodox Rabbi.
Some would have us believe that going to work or even planning for it is something a frum person should do only as a last resort. They glibly declare that most people should make Torah their livelihood and that this has always been how our nation functioned. However, the Gemara testifies (Brachos 35b) , “Harbeh Asu…V’lo Alsah B’yadan”, this is not how the majority should live for they will fail and not even have Torah from it. It’s the proper way only of the select minority who are capable of it.
Pretending that this somehow doesn’t apply to us has led to the intolerable Chillul Hashem we’ve been forced to endure, where we have to read:
“‘We have a failure in our community that we have to address,’ Rabbi Aaron Kotler, leader of the world’s largest yeshiva outside of Israel told NJ.com. ‘Theft is wrong. We need to do better to educate people.'”Joseph,
Thanks for your smarmy comment on how you imagine I allocate my charitable giving. I happen to support a very carefully chosen Kollel in Yerushalaim but most of my funds go to widows, orphans and the sick.
Where you get the nerve to call another Jew miserly and to tell others where they should be contributing? You pretend to be a ben-Torah but clearly aren’t one. The web is not a proper forum for people like you. Get off and stop causing constant chillul Hashem.
“There have never been so many historically wealthy people. Such a thing should only be for really excellent earners maybe the top 1 percent determined by gross income. They should support the other 99%, who should learn full time.”
What a load of silly drivel and fake history! Kollel is a relatively recent invention and balabatim have no halachic obligation whatsoever to support able-bodied men who choose it. Joseph and DaasYochid have every right to support it with all of their money but no right to tell anyone else how to allocate their charitable giving.
Supporting a person who can’t work is tzedaka, which is mandatory. Supporting an able-bodied adult who chooses instead to learn in hachzokas hatorah, which is voluntary.
$2.4 million defrauded by 26 people.
“We have a failure in our community that we have to address,” Rabbi Aaron Kotler, leader of the world’s largest yeshiva outside of Israel told NJ.com. “Theft is wrong. We need to do better to educate people.”Notice, he’s not saying it’s sheker v’chazav and it’s certainly not a Kiddush Hashem but hopefully it will drive the change which one day leads to Kiddush Hashem.
“The world doesn’t revolve around aIY.”
That’s right, it revolves around Joseph. Please remember that for next time, aIY!
Your hero, FDR, yemach shemo, could have worked with his majorities in Congress to lift the quotas and allow Jews into the country, thereby saving them. I had conversations with the Historians of the U.S. House and Senate, who confirmed this. When I asked them why he didn’t, they each quietly replied that they didn’t know.
The uncomfortable truth is that he was an anti-Semite and gladly took advice from other anti-Semites, including liberal Jews, who didn’t want to see their European brethren flooding into the U.S.
“aIY: What was the ruling of your rabbi for this?”
anIsraeliYid, please reply, especially if your Rav told you there are situations where you may shake a woman’s hand.
You’ll make Joseph’s day since he’ll find grounds to criticize you, your Rav and your entire kehilla, none of whom he ever met. A true trifecta!
Charlie,
“It was those WASPs who wanted to preserve America as a WASP paradise who put on those quotas in the 1920s, leading directly to the deaths of six million Jews who had nowhere to flee.
There you go again with your historical distortions!
The main impediment to Jewish immigration was your hero, FDR, yemach shemo. The Democrats had large majorities in both houses of Congress for nearly all of his twelve years in office and could have opened the gates to Europe’s Jews. His anti-Semitic administration wouldn’t even meet with the hundreds of Rabbis who came to Washington in 1943 to plead their cause. FDR was perfectly happy to watch six million Jews reduced to ash and he’s now suffering the same fate for all eternity.
Joseph,
As I’m sure you know, a number of Rishonim explicitly write that the Rambam is referring to the husband hitting his wife, not to Beis Din.
Now, please answer both questions. How often do you let your isha out of the house? How often do you beat her?
Nope, the Rambam says no such thing.
You still didn’t answer the questions. Scared? For good reasons.
Joseph,
As you know, the Rambam doesn’t say that Beis Din must hit the wife.
You still didn’t answer the questions. How often do you let your isha out of the house? How often do you beat her?
KosherSimchas,
To be truly kosher according to everyone, please make sure to never allow the names of girls or women to be posted. Only allow the terms, “daughter of ploni”, “wife of ploni”, etc.