Forum Replies Created
alwaysask-“What is the explanation for the Ashkenazi order?”
” Eastern Europe would often get one esrog per town, according to stories. Would they really refuse it if was a pitom or pitom-less type?”
-idk you tell me? Thats why im asking if anyone knows sources and would be interesting in hearing peoples minhagim and reasons.
“RW did not ask “who is right”, he asked “what was original” minhag. That is not the same. You don’t tell your students that Yaakov wore a shtreimel to support a minhag, I hope.”
commone saychel-” what is the minhag of eating pizza on Motza? or a half baked slice on Motza Peasch?
What is the minhag of having a sushi platter at a vort?
And you never answered the Kokosh cake minhag,”
Those arent minhagim moron.
Baltimoremaven, is it the one that looks like an apple with a lid? That’s what Google search shows.
Sam Klein, what about the wax sealing though? Without that there wouldn’t be any usable oil.
Also didn’t the Vilna Gaon hold by only 2 matzohs?
Yes I know everyone has their minhagim regarding lulav etc. More interested in reasons behind them. I’m sure there are many.
Avirah “This list is full of arrogance. It’s not our place to decide which half of klal yisroel, which half of rishonim are “right” and which are “wrong”.”
-so I take it you follow Beis Shamay for menora lighting in order to stay in your place? I mean why be arrogant and follow a different opinion?
Wasn’t there one way of doing things before the churban? Just asking.
Syag nobody asked you. Nothing j said was negative they are facts and patterns that everyone is aware of. Like I said if you can’t contribute to this topic you are more than welcome to not comment. You aren’t coming off as clever or quick witted we’ve seen these boring comments over and over again by everyone. Change the record.
I heard the kiddush cup with stem is a more recent American minhag. Is there any source to that? That is if anyone actually wants to talk about this topic or just write random things which make you feel so smart and brave. Those who don’t want to participate in this discussion are welcome to leave and not comment. I’m only looking for productive comments that can contribute information not for your silly 5 year old jokes.
Avirah maybe you see it as arrogance because you are self reflecting and projecting it on others. Actually this topic isn’t about who or what is right it’s about minhagim and asking those who practice the minhag this way or that for sources and reasons in order to understand why some have a certain minhag either way. It’s just that this forum has participants who are so negative that they will always try to find the bad in anything and start a contest of who can put downt the other on a more “clever” way. Pathetic.
Syag I’m actually not bullying anyone just stating facts from observation.
Yes, Moderator 29, a lot more neutral and positive than the sinas chinam topics you guys approve or post on the site. My topic, contrary to your taste is actually productive and thought provoking to find out the roots and sources for our Jewish customs. Should I have thrown some hate stirring attacks on others minhagim in order to get approved faster?
Ujm, yes how did you guess? Is that the most you can contribute to the topic? Its ok for you not to know everything so we forgive you in advance to not comment in future cases. : )
Maybe just to sanitize the bacteria that stays from saliva even if it’s your own?
Go away you arent welcomed
Kuvult so what is the best way to sanitize it to reduce or eliminate the smell without it being abrasive? Also do the glossed Shofar smell as much as the non gloss?
“But it’s my shofar, why is there a need to clean it?”
So its your shofar but how did you clean it to make sure its sanitized in the first place? Also even if its your saliva it still builds up bacteria and smell so wouldnt you want to keep it sanitized aside for the dust buildup?
mentch-“I do not clean my shofar at all, after all you are blowing it and I assume the dust will be blown out”
-and the saliva?
Does cleaning it over and over ruin the shofar over time?
So basically tablet is just an airplane thing?
The list where you couldnt prove to us why Hebrew is a made up language.
Common Saychel, you need some common sense to understand that throwing terms around on others for something that you are doesnt work in this world. Once you started getting defensive and attacked me since you had no answers left, i chose to ignore your further messages.
Avirah Im sure any typical English speaker can definitely understand someone coming to talk to them in Biblical English or Shakespearian. Does that mean its a different language? Its olde English and also very formal high level which is typically not spoken. Hebrew exists and its a bit more modernized than Torah Hebrew naturally but any Hebrew speaker can understand almost everything the Torah says aside for a few difficult words. How would that be possible if Ivrit is a made up language? Yes they invented new slangs and a few different meanings to words but again languages mostly evolve with people and eras. Also what do you want people to do this is their language should they stop speaking it? Hebrew is the language of the Jews. You cant say any other language is. Whether it should be spoken day to day or only for Torah is a different story but its still the language of the Jews. Also Rashi says before the Migdal Bavel all communicated in one language Lashon Hakodesh. So do you even know what Lashon Hakodesh is?
Avirah-” it’s not intelligible to an israeli. “The chiyuv is chal on the cheftza” – try saying that to a frei guy in Israel and see if he has any idea what you’re talking about.”
Other than the the fact that most words in that sentence are in English, an Israeli will definitely be able to understand since they can break up the word such as cheftza( which really is the only word thats complicated here) and understand. In any case a native Hebrew speaker without any Torah knowledge would understand that sentence 100% more than a non Hebrew speaker(American etc.) Especially if that sentence was all in Hebrew and not mostly in English.
CS”Well I am not a hypocrite, I dont care one way or the other WORLDWIDE”
-Congrats on not being a hypocrite, but the discussion was referring to Israel and not worldwide. Why do you keep kosher when worldwide most do not? What a hypocrite.
I don’t care what language the street signs are posted in either, besides for Arabic in Israel. Especially in Jewish cities. As in not in Pali territory.
CS”the main langague spoken in New Square, Monroe, Vistnitz and Tosh is Yiddish, yes all street signs are in English or [in the case of tosh in French], does it offend me? no, if the signs were in Engish and Yiddish would it offend me? no, Do I it offensive that they call 8th Street in Little Havana in Miami Calle Ocho, no.”
-What about non chassidish places is Yiddish also the main language? I already mentioned Yiddish is prevalent in Chassidish communities thats obvious. Bottom line the Universal Jewish language is Hebrew whether you like it or not.
Yiddish is a Ashkenaz Jewish language, Ladino is a Sephardi Jewish language, the common denominator language of ALL Jews, is Hebrew. Hebrew is the Universal Jewish Language of all time.
“Most Jews arent Israeli and speak primarily the language of the land or Yiddish if they come from Ashkenaz roots.”
CS-The majority of Jews in the world speak Hebrew. All of Israel, all the Israelis abroad,and most Jews at least know the language.
Alwaysask- Nach is not written in simpler more modern Hebrew than Torah?
So now it has to be predominate to be a Jewish language? Most Jews arent Israeli and speak primarily the language of the land or Yiddish if they come from Ashkenaz roots. But most Jews also know Hebrew alongside whatever language they speak. I’m not sure what part of Hebrew is so made up that it differs from the historic language of the Jews
Ujm how is ivrit a different language? You still didn’t answer why nach and Mishna are written in a much simpler tongue than Torah.
And Israelis speak Hebrew whats your point? Hebrew was revived on Israel but it doesn’t mean it was made up it came from the Hebrew that was around all the generations.
@Commonseychel, yes only Chssidish. Show me litvaks or sefardim who speak Yiddish in the Catskills.
NYC is a place spoken Hebrew by the masses. Fort Lauderdale also. Also LA. Also France. Also many latino areas speak hebrew as well as Spanish.
You still didnt answer what the Official Jewish language is of all time.
Ujm “Example: “Chashmal”, which means electricity in MH, comes from the Loshon HaKodesh word found at the beginning of Yechizkel which is the name of the Angel of Fire. The idea of taking the name of the Malach of AIsh and using it to mean “electricity” was the implication that whereas in the olden days we believed in angels as explanations for things, today we believe in technology.”
-What do you want them to call electricity then? What was the Torah word for it back when it wasnt invented/used yet? Also how does it imply that we thought angels were explanations for things and now technology is? Where did you get that from?
Also isnt electricity likened to fire thats why its assur on Shabbos in the category of Aish?
CS”I can go to Belgium, UK, USA, Canada among others and hear Yiddish being spoke by masses.”
-By masses other than Chassidim?
Actually Avira it’s “Lashon Hakodesh”. You are giving it a different translation. How does one speak Rambam?
Commonseychel Kurdish is spoken by kurds, Hebrew is spoken by Jews outside of Israel as well and most non Hebrew speaking Jews know Hebrew more than Yiddish. Again what is the language of the Jews if not Hebrew I’m missing your argument here. what language did Jews speak in the times of Ancient Israel? And after they were dispersed they picked up the local languages, what did they speak before inventing Yiddish? Is every Jew speaking Hebrew doing an aveirah?
Answer what is the language of the Jews? I never heard someone speak in Rambam or the ketsos. Do Jews not have a languages? They only speak in foreign tongue? Again even Lashon Hakodesh seems to have evolved for the fact that it became much more “modern” and simpler in the times of Nach and definitely times of Mishna. Of course I don’t side with the bad intentions of early Zionists who wished to further the religion away, but I’m trying to understand why modern ivrit is the devil when it is derived from the language of the Jewish Heritage? Were Jews just meant to speak Aramaic, Yiddish, English or any other foreign language but Hebrew? How do you even know what Lashon Hakodesh is didn’t Rashi write that before the migdal bavel all spoke the same language; lashon hakodesh. That was before the Torah was given. And if the Torah is lashon Hakodesh then why the simpler language style change in Nach onward?
Lehavdil was English invented as a way to destroy old English? Would anyone still talk that way today? Or do languages just become more modern on their own over time as we see with most languages.
ujm”Other reasons why MH is not the “language of the Jew””
-what is the language of the Jew then, Babylonian? Why did the evil zionists choose to base the language on a Jewish language and not on some European language if they wanted to destroy the roots? MH is too similar to Torah Hebrew wouldnt you think they would choose something different? How did everyone just suddenly learn a totally new language if they didnt already have a basic knowledge of it.
ok so you are saying hebrew is not the language of the people its a language of a country. So whats the official language of Jews, Yiddish? Even before it was invented?
What do you mean by the masses? How many countries are Jews the majority in? Israelis speak Hebrew. Americans speak English. Chassidish speak Yiddish. Russians speak Russian. Im not understanding what you are getting at.
Name me on place in the world where Kurdish is spoken by the masses, or Cherokee, or Scottish Gaelic, or Sardinia or Corsican, should I go on? Hebrew is a language of a minority so why would it be globally spoken?
@common saychel, Im not understanding your question. Hebrew is unique to Jews why would it be spoken in other countries by the nations? What did Jews speak before Ladino and Yiddish were invented?
Here is a quote”Hebrew is a Middle Eastern language that can be traced back to over 3,000 years ago, while Yiddish is a language which originated in Europe, in the Rhineland (the loosely defined area of Western Germany), over 800 years ago, eventually spreading to eastern and central Europe.”
I understand that the Hebrew we speak today is more modern, but how can you say its a new invented language? If it was invented how can Hebrew speakers understand 98% of the Torah with only select words that are more ancient/old/formal?
Britannica-” Hebrew was supplanted by the western dialect of Aramaic beginning about the 3rd century bce; the language continued to be used as a liturgical and literary language, however. It was revived as a spoken language in the 19th and 20th centuries and is the official language of Israel.”
Ok so they are saying Aramaic was spoken, but again that Hebrew was revived not reinvented. They do write about how some words were given different meaning, but also we see a difference between Torah text, to Nach, and to Mishna. So did the Hebrew language anyway evolve into a more modern and simpler dialect?
Again even if you say that Seforim were written in Hebrew but Hebrew was not spoken, why did they choose to write seforim in “Modern Ivrit” and not in Lashon Hakodesh?
Ok ujm old and newer seforim and letters from tzadikkim are written in ivrit are they not? How could that be if it’s an invented language?
Common saychel, why are seforim all written out in Hebrew if its an invented language?
“Lashon kodesh isn’t ivrit, and even if they were the same, leshitas ha, Jews didn’t speak lashon kodesh either, as ujm cited”
So they spoke Aramaic? Ok then why Tzaddikim books and teshuvos on questions all in modern ivrit then?
“But, says the Ohel Yaakov, even though this is a good and positive practice, and perhaps even obligatory according to Halachha, since its origins came through Shabse Tzvi, we should not do it. The same applies, all the more to making MH our “national language.””
-perhaps, but also in the second Churban it was said perhaps it shouldnt be brought as a korban so that Yidden dont think its muttar, and that choice lead to what? There are always disagreements amongst poskim.
I mean you can always give scary examples of what words to use or not. Even the English language changed because peoples dialect changes over time. Even the Nach has a simpler lashon than Torah doesnt it?
“The Radak (Sefer HaMichlol, introduction) writes that Loshon HaKodesh is all but forgotten to us, and all we have left is what is in Tanach.”
-If he said its forgotten to us then how did anyone change it to modern hebrew? What does modern hebrew come from if not ancient hebrew since you say its a made up language? Also if its a made up language then whats the problem using it its mundane right? How did people invent a lanaguage only 70 years ago?
Was English also reinvented from Old English? Also you still didnt answer why basically all Tzaddikim books are in what you call modern ivrit? On one hand you say they destroyed the lashon and created a modern version, on the other hand you said its a completely made up language -from thin air?Other posters are bringing up Rambam, if Rambam spoke about modern ivrit then its not that modern is it? What language did the Rambam write in?
I understand that modern hebrew isnt the same as Torah hebrew, but its pretty close, i mean a native hebrew speaker can read and understand Torah much more than someone who doesnt know hebrew. How can the accent not change? Even Yiddish speakers have different accents based on the country they came from. And words are basically the same as in Torah but of course you will have some slangs in modern hebrew or a few different meanings for words that were changed around.
Im basically just trying to understand how you can say hebrew is an entirely different language if its 90% the same as in Torah. Also if the zionists wanted to create a new language why did they base it on Torah and not just create a totally new language or base it on latin or something? Isnt Yiddish also based on lashon hakodesh so how is that considered a mundane language thats allowed to be spoken? And you mention lo shinu es leshonam, Yiddish sure sounds like it was Shinu from lashon hakodesh.
Avira”The few Jews who lived in eretz yisroel over the years did not speak hebrew, since it wasn’t invented yet.”
-ok i guess the Torah is just a translation from Yiddish and Ladino, thanks for the info. Yes there is no reason to accommodate Arab speakers in Israel. Same as Medina Saudi Arabia doesnt have signs in whatever jewish language you want to choose for the Jews who lived there for over 1000 years. Germany doesnt have signs in Yiddish either. Rome doesnt have signs in Yiddish for the Jews they took captive to their. But yes accommodating the Arabs is a great idea this way it can encourage them to stay and bring more arabs to live in Israel why not.
ujm how can ivrit be a new language? You can say the accent is different but the Torah is written in Hebrew is it not? Books that Tzdikkim wrote are in Hebrew. How is it a new language?
Avirah Jews also lived in Israel before 1948 and spoke Hebrew why are you feeding us the Palestinian narrative? It wasn’t just European Jews who came to Israel there were Jews living there all the years. And it was occupied by many nations before so if we go by your theory why don’t we also see signs written in the Roman language Latin, or Persian or any other occupying nation. English writing isn’t because of Brits it’s because it’s universal language. With canada it only became fully independent in 1982 which is very recent, and they still have some ties to Queens Elizabeth and she is depicted on their currency. Whether they choose to keep french or not later on idk. Who are you helping by arab signs? The Palestinians? Any Arab born in Israel knows Hebrew. Israel was never an Arab land the closest was that Arab empires occupied the land but it wasn’t considered an Arabic land. According to you it was . Jews knew Hebrew, Aramaic is closer to Hebrew than Yiddish.
Canada bad example many places were connected to french due to occupying. Second of all its not making the Arabs less angry they are always the same. If anything it will make them less angry once Israel shows them there is no 2 states because then their hopes will be lost and they will lose all confidence just as they did when Trump showed them there will likely be no 2 states. The arabs thrive on weakness and are in check when shown strength.
alwayask”By giving people directions, you make sure they don’t drive around dangerously looking for the destination, don’t learn ivrit to understand direction, and don’t get aggravated by lack of directions and respect.”
-well ,maybe nobody should learn english in the US and just have 70 languages on the signage so that nobody gets aggravated? How do the directions stop people from driving dangerously I dont see the relation. Also people can use GPS without need for signs.
It doesnt work because it gives the impression of 2 States. What other countries have a foreign language on their signage other than English? Street signs have it as well why would that be necessary at all? It should be Only hebrew and english for tourists and the like. If anything its better without the Arabic so they can feel less welcome in Jewish areas and stay in their own territories. What advantage does it give to have arabic writing on signs? I can only see disadvantages to it.
Ujm, why not just Aramaic? Capture all 3 languages in 1.
Yankelle Arabic is on all road signs not just Arabic areas. It doesnt upset me but it just makes it seem like it truly is a country of 2 peoples aka a double state.
no Avirah I didnt mean it this way-“I also don’t like the American nationalistic, xenophobic attitude of “this is America! Learn English you foreigner!” ”
I meant it seems like recognizing a people who claim its their land. What do you mean it was founded on Arabic land so makes sense to accommodate them? It was founded on Canaanite idol worshipping land. Maybe we should also build more mosques, teach Arabic in schools and give the Arabs some more land to accommodate them a bit better?
“Asserting Jewish dominance just leads to Jews dying from terrorist attacks”
-actually the opposite, the stronger you are the weaker they get. Arabs are afraid of strength but thrive on others weakness. Its a known nature attributed to them. Not recognizing them at all lowers all their might. Not to be politcial but its why in the 4 years of Trump Israel was silent and peaceful and the palestinians were unheard of since they lost all confidence once he declared a 1 state solution option. Suddenly when Biden came around they sprang up like hounds “wanting to discuss peace”.
“It’s one of the things that conservative goyim are mistaken about. It’s not a torah idea; we are told to love foreigners if they are keeping our beliefs and ideals, whether they are a ger toshav or especially if they’re a ger tzedek.”
-You are mixing different cases. It also said that if enemies are left after conquering the land they will be like a thorn ion your eyes. That part we are seeing. Where is it encouraged to have enemies living in the land and to respect them? Did that apply to the Plishtim as well? They kept heir beliefs and ideals too. The Arabs seem to be keeping the ideals and beliefs of killing Jews quite strictly.
ujm”P.S. During the times of the Beis Hamikdash, there were signs in foreign languages giving the Goyim instructions.”
-Ive seen that sign in Greek or something, but again they have the signs written in English, why the need for Arabic too, why not Russian for the Russian population? If its for safety reasons ( the Arabic) then i guess that makes sense although I think its more to make them comfortable and show what a good Democracy Israel is. I feel its more important for Jews to beware of Arab areas than the other way around if anything.
is there any issue holding an american express card due to their logo?
Alwaysask-“On the other hand, why would one need yoga other than sound fashionable? You can walk for exercise and meditate before davening.”
– i mean there are different types of exercise to target different health issues. Just like there are different medicines. I just heard its helped people idk.