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WIY –
Thats is all true but those are just people given the situation with something else would be just as rude. I dont claim to be the kindest person out there but when on a bus if someone calls me I tell them I’m on the bus and I’ll call them back, if I’m with a friend and someone texts me I’ll quickly text them back that ill ttyl, its basic common courtesy, its not some out there concept.
I dont know if its the cell fone that did it to people or maybe this belongs in the Respect thread but people in general have lost courtesy for each other.
They dont have Military issue camo skirts only dress skirts fyi.
And I wouldnt be interested in joining the military unless I could handle a bullet or two 😉
I’m not sure how well skirts go over in the military…
I always wanted to join the military…
“It has made people much ruder”
I dont think so. Rude people will be rude whether they had cell phones or not. Lack of etiquette isnt an invention that came along with the cell phone.
I think we should let Hash-m worry about running the world and we should just do what we gotta do, no sense in trying to understand the way things work.
So glad I did not go to your Sem…..
Personally, I hate the speculation, will we have bodies will we not have bodies? will we be the way we were when we died? will we live in E’Y? Aside from the fact that it freaks me out, you just dont know because it has never happened before, so… let’s all behave ourselves and hopefully we will see very soon. Amen!
“What’s the protocol? First date or two a lounge, next date or two a restaurant, then some some outdoor activities?”
Nothing is set in stone, its really whatever you want. I’ve done lounges, restaurants, outdoors for first dates it all depends on the guy…. 😉 g’luck!
ramateshkolian –
Thanks for bringing this up, now I can rant about one of my favorite pet peeves: Newly Weds Moving To Israel
I am yet to be convinced why this is a good/sane/ideal situation. For an american couple to live in Israel it costs close to double than to live in America if being supported. Also, most of the time (for Americans) the girls cant find jobs (and if the do they make about 10 shek an hour, $2.50 in a good economy)
I have heard the argument that they should be able to “lean” on eachother with out their parent nearby (besides the fact that this is rediculous sounding) so move to a diff city in America! no need to be in a diff country, diff language diff culture!
I have heard the “kedush argument”. Girls -Let me assure you (friends and family have confirmed) that once you start having the kids and even before hand you are busy running a house, making suppers… you dont have time to run to the kosel every time you feel like davening mincha, you dont go on kevarim tours every yartzheit, it isnt Seminary any more! And for the guys, I am sure you will learn just as nicely in a nice kollel in America, plus you will have your precious extra money to tide you over.
Sorry about the sarcasm, I just think its a complete waste of money, and an even bigger mishagass.
WIY-
“Im sure there are some boys out there who dont have this attitude but you have to think of it from a guys perspective and also his parents perspective.”
I dont really have to… Not what I want, not what I need.
What other people do is their business.
“But nor is it incumbent upon the bochor to marry their daughter if the support isn’t offered”
I guess you are right…
But it is also a 2 way street I dont hafta marry someone with such a poor attitude.
Ben Torah –
Sure! its just an entertainment complex, they have imax, ice-skating, golf, and bowling (maybe some other stuff that I’m not remembering)
If youd do any of those activities than you can go there, there is nothing inappropriate to see.
WIY-
“Is there something wrong with a boy who wants to sit and learn and have financial security? Sounds reasonable to me”
UM, yes, it is not incumbent on your in-laws to give you that financial security. If you want it, make it for yourself. My personal problem with the attitude is that they want EVERYTHING. the kollel and the money.
“Yidden shouldn’t not accept what they qualify for, when other yidden pay tons of taxes and other goyim take advantage of the system to is maximum legal extent.”
I actually agree with this (which is shocking, the extreme fiscal conservative that I am…) But I dont think it is wrong to accept available government assistance where needed to secure your footing. What bothers me is when that privilege is abused.
Shan –
“But if you look at a pattern on these blogs and other sites, you’ll see SOOO many people bashing this lifestyle, and after a point, you just feel like enough is enough.”
Who cares about other people? If this is what works for you then good. Beautiful. You really shouldn’t take what everyone says too personally.
World Saver –
“When a boy that wants to learn looks for support, he is looking for the type of family that wants to support and feels good doing so”
This would be beautiful…. it it were true. In my experience it isnt, and I think in most people’s it isnt either. My parents, my they live and be well, are in a position to support, when I was adorable and naive (and maybe just a little spoonfed) I wanted a “forever” learner, and when I was dating those kinds of boys when thay asked for support it wasnt for my fathers hashkafos rather for his wallet and to ensure the boys financial security.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO WENT THROUGH THE HOLOCAUST AND REMAINED FRUM!
AMEN 🙂
WIY – Im not sure that would be such a great idea, can lead to gross amounts of loshon hora, a lot of people can be insulted, and bottom line is people dont always fit the mold of the Seminary the went to Case In Point.
shan – I’m sensing a lot of suppressed anger. If you love what your doing and love your decision, why would you care what other people say, think and do?
Paschabechachama –
“Are all the teachers from the same background, or do they have real variety? (Because otherwise even without direct hashkafah lessons, they are definitely presenting it a certain way.)”
Stop trying to push your agenda 😉
They have quite a variety actually (which is ironic, based on the fact that it is such a small town) There is Rebitzen Ausband, I was lucky enough to be there while Rebitzen Sorotzkin was still alive (to some being in their presence is enough to come to the Seminary…) There are Rabbonim (pretty choshuva ones, and shockingly open minded) and then there are the women teachers who are all extreme intellects and thats what they do, it was just hard for me to relate…
Whatrutalkinabt –
You are making as big blanket statement as the next person by saying that people grow in E’Y, Seminary level learning rivals that of H.S. …. I dint go to Seminary in Israel but my sisters did (top flight ones I might add) and they said that the work was not harder than in High School and the teachers in H.S. where just as good if not better. I think everyone really has to take a good hard HONEST look at themselves and decide if its what they really need.
“Booooooring as you say, is all relevant to the person you are with.”
Maybe thats why I’m still single, I’m just too exciting for myself 😉
I completely agree with WIY.
Also, I think its that we do mitzvos by rote without much thought or meaning we just do them because. I think we have to inject our spiritual lives with some ooomph (for lack of a better word) oh! wait excitement.
I think the only way it can truly be done is by EACH person making a conscious effort to be more open minded and more accepting. There arent going to be any symposiums about it or any speeches by Roshei Yeshiva, it has to start with every individual.
“That’s easy (and cheap) enough for a girl to say… ;-)”
There are a lot of cheap places to go if you dont want to spend a lot on a first date (I kinda feel like a lounge is a bit of a lazy cop out, not to mention boooooring)
– South Street Sea Port
– Brooklyn Promenade
– Brooklyn Botanical Gardens
– Starbucks
– Battery Park
– Brooklyn Bridge Park
– Central Park
– Boardwalk
– Governors Island
– Top Of The Roc
…. I think thats enough for now…
How about a Big Sister Little Sister sort of program? king of like a mentoring situation? Like NCSY, only not.
Paschabechachma –
I didntclaim that they were open minded nor did I say that they were close minded. They were “a-hashkafic” meaning, you would have to try really hard to dig out the hashkafic view points from the lesson, being that 98% of the classes were text based, to find any hashkafa.
I am out of seminary for a couple of years now, but I cant remember one class where a teacher actually expressed their view on a Hashkafic issue….
Yavne isnt about Hashkafa it is about text, they believe it is the last time you will actually be able to truly open a chumash, navi, tehillim etc and really LEARN it with every meforash. If thats for you, enjoy.
It wasnt for me, and in a lot of ways it was a wasted year.
The community is great, and the family I stayed by is a lesson in Shalom Bayis, and that was what I gained the most out of.
The only problem I have with parents supporting is the supportees attitude of “its coming to me”. They feel that because they are learning/have a husband who is learning, they deserve every thing. Not true. And I hope they realize how much their parents sacrafice for them, and I hope they thanks them accordingly.
Just a thought: What happens at the next generation, when we have a whole group of men who have never earned a living, and they are expected to marry off children?
Tikvuchka – I can imagine! You dont have to do it right away, it may also be challenging if you are a relative newly-wed. I dont think I would do it either until I had more than one child, so that they would feel like they had siblings and a real family. (so many plans… lol)
paschabachachma –
“All the seminaries suffer from a certain hashkafic inflexibility. They seem to feel that they are supposed to force every girl into the same derech of serving Hashem, whatever theirs is – becoming a teacher, mother, etc.”
If you found that to be the problem then Yavne would have been the perfect choice. At no point did they preach, or even give over their Hashkafic view points it was strictly learning 24/7.
Anywhere but a hotel lounge.
“Nope, the Yavne experience is something special. Do you have any idea how much yiraas shomayim the Yavne girls get from just looking at Rebetzin Ausband?”
Did you go? I did.
Its hard to relate. The Seminary has many fatal flaws which is why enrollment is around 15 girls this year.
I’m not necessarily a huge fan of going to E’Y but certain things are just ridiculous.
Um, Yavne is around 5k plus boarding. Doesnt touch Israel pricing (neither does the experience)
I dont think there are enough frum Foster Homes, that is definitely something I’d love to do when I get married (IY”H)…Husband permitting.
I do think that it is necessary because many times that is the last year that they will receive a full dose of hashkafa for the rest of their lives, unless they make a strong effort to seek it out, and at 17/18 I dont think anyone has all their hashkafos set for life.
I’m not sure however how necessary going to Eretz Yisroel is. Yes, it is very nice to see the kedusha of E’Y, and to see how people live “gashmius free”, but meanwhile at home the parents are tightening their belts so that they can spend the extra 20k. Bottom line is I dont think EVERYONE gains, there are definitely cases where it has done a world of good for girls (and unfortunately the opposite is true) and then there are the majority of cases where the girl just had a year in E’Y where the focus was the teyulim and the fun… for 20k I can say Ma Rabu Maasechu Hashem at the Grand Canyon, it doesnt have to be in E’Y, and it would be a whole lot cheaper.
Boys going to E’Y to learn is a completely diff story, first of all the money issue is non-comparable, it is much cheaper for boys. Also, there is an inyan that you learn Torah much better in E’Y because of the Kedush (please no one say that girls are also learning Torah, I may lose my lunch)
I think anything medical would be interesting (ie wether you can use a pigs valve as a replacement, organ donation, diabetes…)
yg1 – Im not sure that is entirely true. I went to probably what is one of the most strictest/chumra pushing BY in the tri-state area and we were very aware what we could do to guys whith the way we dresses, maybe your sisters are very sheltered (more power to them)
I have also heard on more occassions than I care to think about, girls saying, “Well, if the boys dont like it they dont hafta look…”
Also, like I mentioned before I dont think the girls that are IN BY are the ones dressing for the guys, I think the problem starts once they leave school…
I think everyone has gotten off the topic at hand, and I am probably to blaim.
WellInformedYid was wondering why after all the speeches woman hear and after going through BY do they still dress un-tzniusdikly, and what, if there are any new suggestion, can we do about it?
My point, in bringing up the fact that woman dress for men, is that if maybe the Roshei Yeshiva would speak to the BOYS and somehow convince them how bad an un-tzniusdik wife is, thereby making it less attractive to them, maybe they wouldnt be giving the girls with the too-tight top, too short skirt etc etc all the preferences.
Also, I am not disagreeing with the fact that there is a gross amount of gashmius in clothing between woman, but that is a completely diff topic.
Sister Bear – Let me ask you a question, When you go out (date, wedding, with friends) How long does it take you to get ready? and at what point do you think that now I look good? Whos standards are those? Yours? Or what other people are going to think looks good?
OOMIS – while men dont care about the label (bonus points when you get your friend to be green with envy at your designer labels) usually the labels are the clothing that are going to look “just so” making you look perfect. Accomplishing both goals.
APY – I was noticing that SJS and myself were not agreeing so there was no need to push the issue further.
aries – What world do you live in? and is there an availability for me to come and join?!
Helpful – thank you for clarifying. Whilst not always the case for me it sometimes is and for literally 100s of other girls.
Clearly we are going to agree to disagree on this issue. No sense in beating a dead horse.
It may not start off that way. But the girls in the Bais Yaakovs are usually pretty well behaved until they get out. And then of course everyone wants to look good. And then they get “into shidduchim” and everyone is dressed to impress.
I dont know how many phone calls I got about friends “Does she dress well?” No mention of “Is she tznius or not?”
I’m not solely putting the blame on the boys, clearly us girls are the ones dressing wrongly. I just dont think the boys are in the clear.
SJS – When a designer designs they make the clothes to accentuate parts of the body.
True that its a snowball effect that once you are get all into the clothes you become obsessed with designers, you have to keep up you appearance all the time…
I never claimed that woman look like old hags when amongst friends/other woman. But, if they are getting more/better feed back from men when they are dressed not as tznius not tznius at all, there is really no incentive to dress tzniusdikly. I think the struggle is that here you are toying with the abstract (mitzvos/aveiros) and instant gratification (positive feedback) of the men.
Wellinformedyid
“Girls have an obligation/chiyuv/mitzvah to dress Tznius regardless of how much men like how they dress when they dress untzniusdig. Its really pathetic to blame the boys.”
I’m not debating your first sentance, and I wasnt blaming the boys. I was putting the situation into perspective. You claim to be a “wellinformedyid” no doubt you are, but do you really know whats going on out there?
Woman dont dress for themselves they dress to attract, if a designer would find out tom that a garbage bag is what men liked we would all be wearing it. Its the same in the frum communities. Depending on where you live (even in frum communities) you’ll see tznius styles/trends vary according to taste and what is acceptable. Would the way woman dress in flatbush ever fly in Monroe? NEVER! noone would look at you twice, maybe to throw you out, but thats about all.
Gmar Chasima Tova to all.
“The problem is these girls are rebelling to some extent or just dont care, it doesnt bother them.
The question now is, why, how?”
Very simple, actually. I think I may have heard the refrain that a Bas Yisroel is supposed to be “Attractive NOT Attracting” a million and a half times. Problem is we as humans are hard wired to want to attract the opposite gender, and by dressing a certain way, even if it is -1 inch here and there we are getting positive feedback from our male counter parts.
If the boys started not liking it the girls would stop doing it.
It is really that simple.
Shidduchim Sholom Bayis & Beyond.
Good Luck and enjoy the ride, dont take it too personally and remember everything is from Hash-m.
I’ve seen frum woman wearing slings… and who cares what other people do?
My guess would be they dont want to ruin their outfit… live in Brooklyn by any chance?
SJS – not a fan of preventing babies and young children untold suffering and painful deaths, with a simple blood test?
Thank you MOD for clearing up the details in Scheta, I went back and reviewed and realized I did have them confused.
The problem is can you ensure that you wont drip one drop on the floor making you over on sechita, and for what, to say that you took a shower?
SJS, yes, R Moshe holds you cant use timers for Air Conditioners, but if you are going according to R’ Moshe on this you should prob go according to him on everything else, do you also know that he didnt endorse of Dor Yeshorim?
Also, the logic of my “best friend who is much frummer than I” never flies with me… My boss who isnt frum has nicer middos than 98.9% of frum people I know, so what?
SJS – the reason they are bad examples is because:
Eiruv – if you have an eiruv you can carry, its not getting around carrying, if you have one (a kosher one not some “telephone wire” eiruv) then carrying is permitted a simple A then B equation.
Shabbos Clock – I dont even see where this is on the same wave- length, were is the logic the same? You are doing no malacha you arent going to become over on a malacha. So what would be the problem?
Selling Chometz – This is the only one that MAY be SLIGHTLY similar in that you are trying to get around something. While I do believe that this is more of a minhag type thing than anything else, personally I am not so comfortable selling chometz, my family does it, so I do it.
And all of these things I could live without.
The main problem with showers is that you are a hairsbreadth of being over a d’oraisa and SO MANY people have NO problem with that! you press down on the towel a little bit too hard and you are over schita, I promise you, you wont die if you dont take a shower for 3 days. And your schar will be infinitesimal.