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TR: Never in our history has Kapparos necessitated moving hundreds of thousands of chickens in fetid, boiling hot storage crates. There is nothing cruel about the Kapparos itself. The current mode of transportation, on the other hand, is obscene.
By MBP, the claim is that 200 years ago they thought it wasn’t dangerous. Now we think that maybe it is. Everyone agrees that MBP was done. The only question is if it is necessary or was just by way of convenience. And the Mohel still gets the blood in his mouth even if there is a sterile tube in between.
TR: Look at the Chizkuni (I think by Migdal Bavel) who says they were all allegory. And R’ Bachya famously explains how the world is about 14 billion years old.
There is a very, very big difference between just admitting that we don’t understand something (that we knew all along that we never understood) and between reinterpreting Halachah. And no one is against MBP or Kapparos because of “enlightened understanding”. The Kapparos issue is that nowadays it’s not feasible to transport that many chickens without unnecessary cruelty and therefore it shouldn’t be done (major Chareidi Poskim have said this). The MBP claim is that it never was integral to the Milah and now we should abolish it if it is in fact dangerous.
TR: There are Rishonim who say that even the Mabul was a Mashal and that nothing in Chumash before the story of Avraham Avinu is meant to be taken literally.
Sisrei Torah are Sisrei Torah for a reason. It is not for us to discuss or debate. Everyone talking here about this minute point of 6000 years vs 6000+ years is silly. It is like my 5-year-old cousins debating which of their Pokemon cards is better when neither can actually play the game (then again, neither can I.) It’s just silly. There is evidence that the world is 6000+ years old (current scientific evidence). There is evidence that it is less than 6000 years old (Pashut P’shat in Chumash). Why can’t everyone just agree that these bits of evidence exist and we have no idea what really happened. HKBH created the world. That’s all we need to know. Anything more detailed than that in far beyond our comprehension anyway.
And by the way, I think the people stating that the world is x years old and then debating the potential scientific evidence are over on Mah Lifnim as well. G-d created the world. He did it however He did it. We are not meant to discover how that was.
TR: Dawkins and Hitchins are widely-recognized as the world’s leading atheists. Hawking and Sagan are not evolutionists. They are physicists who happen to be strong atheists.
Belief in evolution or common descent in the scientific community does not preclude belief in G-d.
I believe there is a Tosfos that says that not each of them had to know all 70. Also, they didn’t need to speak it, just understand it.
The prevalent Minhag is to say Yom Tov (or it at all for Nusach Ashkenaz) and Anim Z’miros.
The real remaining problem with common descent that no scientist has yet been able to contend with is how life started in the first place. It takes a minimum of a 30-amino acid chain for a self-replicating protein to exist. The odds of a 30-amino acid chain being randomly created from the theorized primordial soup is astronomical. It should take much more the 4.6 billion years they claim they have.
PAA: I thought I mentioned it above, but I thought the Gemara in Bava Kama was a Ra’aya that Kla Ilan can’t be indigo. Or, at least, not the plant. Maybe it could still be the color but that doesn’t work so well with that Gemara either.
mariokart: Any Issur D’rbannan.
Orthodoxy is imperfect and is a reaction against Reform
This line probably explains why you refuse to undergo a conversion that would be accepted by the vast majority of the Orthodox world.
Outsider: Are you from Akron? I feel like I’ve met you.
Torah: “Sins and not sinners” is a Christian mistranslation of that Passuk/phrase.
shkoiach: There are Borrer issues with most games. Just make sure you know what you are allowed and not allowed to do.
It’s funny. For Frum Jews most board games are usually played on Shabbos. Thus, many people play these games in a way that avoids Borrer even if they happen to play on weekdays, just because that is how they are so used to doing it.
HaLeiVi: He said that raining isn’t like a slap in the face or that it’s actually a good thing?
PBA: I won’t quote the Chayei Adam because I don’t recall it, but that seems like harsh words (unless the CH”A explains his case explicitly). The SHSH”K saw fit to quote it, at least, though I don’t remember which edition I saw it in (V’hameivin Yavin).
PBA: Your Mashal is bad. Because then the Gemara would say that raining during the day is also good, because it means you get to eat inside. Unless you want to say that it means different things in CHU”L than in Israel, because our weather is generally not as Sukkah-friendly as it is there.
PBA: It’s a B’feirush American proverb: Where there’s a will, there’s a way. And I wouldn’t call it Apikorsus. But it is silly.
That aside, there are 2 types of addictions-physical and chemical. In general, the boundary for whether something is an addiction or not is whether or not someone undergoes withdrawal symptoms when deprived of it.
The Shmiras Shabbos quotes the Shittos and is Meikil, but says that a Ben Torah (maybe a Ba’al Nefesh; not positive which Lashon he uses) should avoid using games that involve fake money on Shabbos. I do not recall him mentioning Popa’s Hesber of the Chayei Adam.
PBA: The Rambam would say no, that’s a logical impossibility. A few of the Geonim would say that of course he can. (True story: I capitalized the “h” in the word “he” in that sentence before remembering that I was talking about Chuck, not God.)
TUM: I would just like to point out that you are making a gross insult against Torah learning. “The RIshonim employ Lashon that to us is misleading.”??!! That’s a joke. Why ever learn? It should be Assur to open a Rishon by your logic unless you are a Gadol, because you know that you will potentially distort the Torah to the opposite of what it means. It’s ridiculous. It’s absurd. Sit down and learn the Rishonim. They are very clear in what they say. And we have Achronim to point out when they are potentially apparently being Soseir themselves and what the potential reasons for that are. But the RIshonim mean the opposite of what they say? It’s a joke. Go invent your own Torah and claim that’s what a Rishon really means because, after all, we can’t know what it means. (Unless we’re a “Gadol” and have “Da’as Torah”. But how could we get that in the first place if we misunderstood all the Rishonim until we achieved that point.) Honestly, you have nothing to add to this discussion. Say you don’t know enough to discuss this Sugya. That’s fine. But don’t go around throwing made-up axioms into a Sugya that do nothing but distort actual Talmud Torah.
Just to point this out here, a definitive fossil record does not exist. They have found some middle species, but nowhere near the number that should exist if current evolutionary theory exists.
Punctuated equilibrium is ridiculous to anyone who can think things logically through.
The Minhag seems to be to be Meikil.
I used to have friends who used AskMoses. They got some answers that I later learned were very, very wrong. I can’t say anything about their current Rabbis but last I checked they are not trustworthy.
Honestly, I wouldn’t mind Kerry. He’d certainly be better than Hilary.
TUM: So you have a Minhag L’chatchilah versus potentially being Over an Issur D’Oraisa. Which would you choose?
Also, your point of the evidence not being good enough is nowhere near the same argument as you were making earlier, that we now have a Mesorah to not wear T’cheiles.
Dubya and iknow: There are very few Mekoros that mention what Nivul Peh is. Inappropriate speech, as Yitay mentions, is obvious. Many people take it as a Davar Pashut that curse words also are, but there are no real Mekoros either way about them (though I feel that the Tochachah is probably a good Ra’aya that it includes curse words).
Ben Levi: This is where you are wrong and misinforming people. Even if absolute proof was found, the Theory of Evolution would remain just that. Theories don’t get upgraded to Laws. That’s not how they work.
Besides, the Theory of Evolution is a misnomer based on archaic usage. It is just a general overarching concept that everyone (even Frum Jews) acknowledge exists. There are Pratim within the current working models of the theory that we don’t agree to (common descent, punctuated equilibrium, etc.). But everyone agrees to natural selection and basic genetics.
WIY: Right, that is equating improper speech to improper dress. Not stating a cause-and-effect. I will not deny that someone who looks at inappropriate things is also more likely to say inappropriate things. I’m just saying that blame the inappropriate speech on the person saying it, not anyone else.
I was referring to WIY’s post.
Oh, and Ben Levi, please stop posting this nonsense that just because something is a Theory means it hasn’t been promoted to a fact or a Law yet. That’s just not true. The Wikipedia definition of a scientific theory is (important parts bolded):
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.[1][2] Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive and explanatory force.[3][4]
The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, which is measured by its ability to make falsifiable predictions with respect to those phenomena. Theories are improved as more evidence is gathered, so that accuracy in prediction improves over time. Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease.
Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[3] This is significantly different from the word “theory” in common usage, which implies that something is unsubstantiated or speculative.[5]“
To the poster who said that the laws of nature exist so as to test us, that’s just silly. HKBH set up natural laws so that we could function normally. It would be a strange and impossible existence if I didn’t know every night when I went to sleep how to walk the next morning because gravity might function differently. Or if I would even need sleep to continue to exist at all. Or if I’d be uncomfortably cold in 30 degree weather. Or if weather would even exist.
You just can’t function as a physical being without laws of nature. Also, that aside, many Mitzvos would be impossible without our consistent natural existence.
I will tell you why I am incensed at this claim. It’s not because it’s demeaning (which, if it’s true, it isn’t). It’s because it shows a terrible, terrible mindset. It shows an outlook of, “It’s not my fault.” I never could possibly have done something wrong. If something inappropriate or Assur occurred with my body (speaking improperly, Chillul Shabbos, anything), it’s because someone else did something wrong. It can’t be that I am at fault. It must have been because of some other person. That is a terrible attitude that causes one to sink deeper and deeper into improper behaviors because it shows an inability to stand up to what you did wrong.
The proper responses could have been along the lines of that there’s nothing wrong with these words nowadays. Or that Ein Hachi Nami, speech becomes loose sometimes and presumably real B’nei Torah are working very strongly on fixing it. Not, “It’s not their fault; there are people doing Aveiros in this world that causes those words to come out of their mouths.”
econjew: I don’t want to sound unsympathetic, but on the Yomim Tovim that might be an issue. It’s great on Yom Kippur, but I have seen precedent where Rabbonim have told people who are emotional about it to not go to Yizkor on Yom Tov because it creates a serious Shailah of a lack of Simchas Yom Tov.
BD”E and I am truly sorry that you have this pain. You should see only Simchos in the future.
… I cannot seriously believe that someone blamed boys potentially cursing on women not dressing Tzniusly. Wow.
shopping: That reason is 100% wrong and is explicitly against the Din in the Gemara. It is a terrible Limud Z’chus because it disregards the Halachah (aside from the fact that its premise is wrong to begin with). It is a made-up S’vara and borders on (or actually is) being M’galeh Panim BaTorah Shelo K’halachah.
yekke2: You are not doing a Ma’aseh K’siva by walking around in front of the Goy. Walking around in front of a camera is inherently a Ma’aseh K’siva according to these Shittos.
yekke2 and yeshivaguy: Yes, R’ Elyashiv Assered going to the Kosel on Shabbos. There are some people in certain parts of the old city (I know one of them personally) who refused to leave their houses on Shabbos because of this. They met with R’ Elyashiv and he told them that in their situation they can be Mitzaref many Shittos to be Meikil and that they’d lose more than they’d gain by being Machmir here (no T’fillah B’Tzibbur, lack of Oneg Shabbos, etc.)
Some people have claimed that they explained how a modern digital screen works to R’ Elyashiv and that he then was Chozer. Some close to him have claimed that they are lying and that he was never Chozer.
PBA: You’ve never responded to my Hesber, by the way. Attraction isn’t a relevant factor here.
HaKatan: Once again, you have refused to give a single example of where someone said being “Modern” trumps Halachah.
Someone might review a bar because he went there and wanted to review it. It’s as simple as that. What, because one YU guy went to a bar that means that all of “Modern Orthodoxy” is Apikorsus and puts “modernity” before Torah. I’m sure I could find you a guy from the Mir or Ponovezh who goes to bars. Does that make them all Apikorsim? The Commentator is not indicative of any “YU Hashkafa”. Not even Kol Hamevaser is.
And as someone who listened to thousands of Shiurim by R’ Schachter online, I can say that I highly, highly doubt that your story is true in the slightest. It never happened. It’s not something he would say or hold. He could hold that morale in the army carries a Din of Pikuach Nefesh because if soldiers have low morale, they’re more likely to be killed. Then again, he wouldn’t say that keeping morale up is Doche Issurim unless that was Mamash the only way to keep said morale up (I know this for sure; I have asked a similar Shailah to him in the past and he was only Meikil if it was literally the only way). But I find it impossible to believe that he said the story as you told it.
Yeshivaguy: It is very interesting that the Minhag HaOlam is to be Machmir like R’ Elyashiv by Shabbos and Yom Tov yet to be Meikel by M’chikas Divrei K’dushah. Everyone uses Bar Ilan, Otzar, etc.
PBA: You should say that it’s a B’feirush Rashi (I think in Sanhedrin) that people aren’t attracted to their mothers or sisters (Hevei Mashma that cousins they are).
R’ Elyashiv held (and this was generally agreed upon) that there is an Issur D’Oraisa of K’siva for allowing oneself to be videotaped on Shabbos or Yom Tov, just like it is Assur to take a videotape. (There are Mekilim that it is Muttar if it is purged within 24 hours because therefore it is not Shel Kayama; this is what the security cameras in many Frum areas rely on.)
However, this is if there is some benefit to the Jew. Otherwise, it is just a P’sik Reisha D’lo Nicha Lei. The Goy is taking a video for himself. No Jew is gaining anything from it. No Jew is intentionally doing anything to be videotaped. They are just there while someone is videotaping. They are not doing anything Assur. This is what the world relies upon to walk outside every Shabbos and Yom Tov, even though Google and world governments could have satellites that are watching.
HaKatan: I clearly made a distinction in my first post. I said if you don’t know your cousins that well then it could be true. I just said that by people who grow up with their cousins it isn’t necessarily true.
Obviously, people can be Over Issurim with cousins, just like I said earlier that it’s possible to be Over Issurim with a sister or a mother. The fact is, though, that by cousins (for most people), Stam talking between cousins does not <i>inherently</i>carry the same assumption that the main reason you are talking is because the person you are talking to is a member of the opposite gender. If one talks to their cousin in an Assur fashion, then it’s Assur. But if they don’t, it is not <i>inherently</> Assur.
DaMoshe: Slightly disagree. If your community defines “respectful” as wearing a black hat, then one should wear a black hat during Davening.
truthsharer: Don’t blame “The Chareidim” on him. Contemporary society (not just Chareidim; the whole world today is much more into mob mentality and group-think) cannot take some arguments. But the vast majority of the Chareidi world, by and large, is much more respectful in the way that HakunaMatada is. HaKatan is an aberration, one who will have a tremendous amount of Din V’cheshbon to give some day for the hatred that he causes.
funnybone: They do have an Issur Ervah. They are their own Issurim. It is Muttar to speak to them and touch them (sort of in the case of a sister) because there is no Yetzer Harah therefore even affectionate contact (hug, kiss on the cheek, etc.) isn’t Derech Chibah. Any actual Derech Chibah contact with them would be Over on a D’Oraisa of N’giyah. R’ Moshe says that talking with a Stam girl is an Issur of Derech Chibah because you’re clearly only speaking to them to get closer to them as a girl. That is clearly not true with a cousin.
HakunaMatada: Rabbi Teitz (who was well-respected even in the Chareidi world; and many hold like him over R’ Moshe on sherry casks) was Mattir not covering elbows based on his reading of the Gemara and Rishonim. His opinion was respected but roundly disagreed with.
HaKatan: Once again, your post is long on invective and short on examples. Find me one example of any Rabbi who will Mattir going to Broadway shows on the grounds that “Modernity trumps Halachah”. I could hear an argument that Kol Isha is a separate type of Ervah (though I don’t know anyone who actually says it) and therefore is Muttar in a case where there is no Davar Shebikdusha going on. And I see no reason why that would be an inherently “MO” position.
Just face it, your assassination of hundreds of thousands of Frum Jews stems from anecdotes about a newspaper article (that I assure you the Rabbonim don’t read; sometimes the Commentator’s editors are Frummer and sometimes not as Frum; that doesn’t mean that “MO” as a whole says that going to bars is Muttar or encouraged) and a story about something that once happened in a high school.
Face it, you have nothing. You are a bastion of Sinas Yisrael due to… I don’t even want to try and guess why. If you have anything substantive to ever say, fine. Until then, I doubt anyone wants to hear your spewing. There are ways to debate slightly different Derachim in Avodas Hashem. Yours isn’t it.
My last post was tongue-in-cheek.
mdd: I have seen those who claim (R’ Schachter quotes them) that those Dinim in the Gemara assume they were totally Frum coming in. It would be ridiculous for 2 non-Frum people to get married and then when he starts to become Frum (or dislikes her) he says he wants a divorce for free because she is not meeting the expectations for a Frum marriage. But the marriage was never Frum to begin with?! If he does not expect her to cover her hair when they get married, then he has no reason to suddenly expect it later.
I would just like to point that that HaKatan’s post, while not quite as invective-filled as usual, entirely skirted around the question he was asked.
HaKatan: The Issur of talking is not due to the possibility of attraction growing. If that were true, dating would be Assur. The Issur is because, Al Pi Hapsak Shel R’ Moshe, even friendly conversation between members of the opposite gender is inherently Derech Chibah (because since you could be having the same conversation with a guy, it follows that the reason you are having said conversation with a girl is because she is a girl). Read the T’shuvah (EH 4:60). It is clear. Therefore, it stands to reason that cousins, where it is not inherently Derech Chibah, is not an issue. I am saying this myself but it is more than obvious to anyone who reads the T’shuvah.
By your argument, it should be Assur M’ikar HaDin (or at least M’guneh) to speak to your sister.