Sam2

RD: … Darchei Emori much?

rationalfrummie: There is nothing inherently wrong with putting on Tallis and Tefillin in public either. They did it for 20 years and no one bothered them. When they turned it from a religious pursuit to a political one (wanting to “liberate” the Kosel) then lots of people got very upset over it.

PBA: It feels good to be right once in a while doesn’t it? 😛

Derech Hamelech: To be fair, the Rambam would have dismissed all the Gedolei Kaballah and Chassidus as a lot less than just air…

HaLeiVi: By “even fewer” I assume you meant “only one in history”.

IC: We have women in the Gemara who put on Tefillin. Arguing that it’s Assur from history doesn’t work.

Truthsharer: Look, the protests might not be the best way to go against them. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are *dead wrong*. It hasn’t been news for decades because they did it differently. They weren’t making a public statement. They were quietly Davening to themselves, in their own little corner, volunteering a Mitzvah at the holiest place they have access to. And no one cared. Because those women were being honest in what they wanted to do and just wanted to Daven. We can make a Sugya over whether or not Tefillin is a Mitzvah that women are allowed to volunteer, but when they weren’t trying to “liberate” the Kosel from its Mechitzah and attack Yiddishkeit, no one bothered them. The history until now and the difference now should show you that these women are trying to destroy our religion and that they are wrong. I’ll agree that there are better ways to fight than throwing diapers. But that doesn’t mean we can take this lying down.

Oh, and the women who want no Mechitzah and/or to wear Tefillin are a much smaller minority than the men and women who just want to Daven like Jews always have.

Truthsharer: If what you said about WOW was true then there would be a lot fewer problems with them. Unfortunately, the exact opposite of what you said it true. They are M’sisim Um’dichim and deserve nothing but scorn and mocking from us. (Throwing dirty diapers is Assur, by the way, because you are Machshil many people by having dirty diapers in a Makom Tefilah.)

Playtime: Their admitted goal is to “liberate” the Kosel from its Mechitzah (the leaders, at least). Unfortunately, there are some women who think like you (and just want to wear Tefillin to volunteer an extra Mitzvah, but which isn’t entirely unproblematic) and have been swept in together with these M’sisim Um’dichim (M’sisos Um’dichos?). The act is not inherently evil. The goal is. If they would have their Davening farther down the wall where it wasn’t meant to antagonize, no one would care (well, some people would, but a lot less). But they won’t do that because their goal is to make a public show and to still the Kosel from everyone else who wants it to stay as it was.

E-O-M: The Poskim say there is no Chiyuv of a Kli (Rav Ovadiah’s son has a fairly long bit on this in the Yalkut Yosef) and it’s an incredible (possibly nonexistent) minority who says you do. Into a Kli yes just because it’s convenient to throw it out. In theory I’m Makpid to put salt on bread at all meals that I eat at home but in reality it’s not Shayach for me yet (and the Rama says that our bread has salt in it anyway). I’m not Makpid on the dipping in salt that’s brought down Al Pi Sod, if that’s what you’re asking.

RD: I read Urbach and I greatly enjoyed his work. That in no way changes what I said there.

HaLeiVi: It’s funny you say that. Rav Schachter always mentions a certain Shittah of Tosfos that the Chazon Ish just couldn’t find feasible, so he says that Tosfos never said it.

RD: What I think is that you’ve had several bad experiences and are therefore quite jaded in regards to several groups of Jews who, for whatever reason, do not treat Geirim the way you feel they need to be treated. I would think of recusing yourself from such conversations in the future as you are obviously a bit Nogeia B’davar.

E-O-M: The Gemara itself says that the Melach S’domis is exceedingly rare. The point is that it’s not worth the Sakanah for something as simple as washing your hands. You don’t necessarily need to bring Sod into it. The point is that when being safe requires so little effort why wouldn’t you?

I’m just saying, you can’t pin Conservative Judaism on Tosfos here. They knew the rules too. They’re a Rishon. So instead of just saying that they bucked the system, why not try figuring out how they actually fit into the system?

rd: I won’t argue with you entirely on this (because you’re not completely wrong but are very, very misguided), but I do need to point out that the Rema didn’t give a Limud Z’chus on drinking Stam Yeinam. He just gave a reason why they don’t have a Din of Hechashud Al HaDavar…

Playtime: It has been disputed, but a biographer proved pretty clearly in the book Elvis and Gladys that Elvis’s mother was Jewish.

Also, the AH”SH is very strange soon because he presumably knew that there were Ba’alei Hatosfos all over Europe and that they didn’t only live in mountainous regions.

Ask Rabbi Fruchter what he did when he found out that his Shabbos Goy (Elvis Presley) was actually Jewish.

There are many Mekilim for giving a food to someone who won’t make a B’rachah. First and foremost is the Netzi”v in Meishiv Davar Y”D 42 (maybe 52). If the person eating has a Din of a Tinok Shenishbah then there really is no reason to Asser here because they aren’t being Over any Issur so there’s no Issur M’sayeiya (there’s no Lifnei Iveir anyway even according to the Osrim).

Leyzer: That one’s easy. It was just a pogrom. Pogroms happen in Galus and we shrug it off and move on. That doesn’t mean that the Goyim hate us. It’s just a normal part of daily Galus life.

/takes tongue out of cheek/

WIY: I think I actually said something like that the first time I said this over here (I definitely did the first time I ever said in public in part of a Shiur). But, as HaLeiVi said, it’s long, cumbersome, and feels arrogant because it feels like fake humility. I have nothing wrong with being wrong about this. It’s just that from what I’ve seen I don’t think I am.

Son of Man: I never once claimed that it was acceptable to believe in any form of corporealism. In fact, I explicitly stated the oposite several times on this thread. My only point was that Rashi apparently didn’t see things that way. Which is fine.

147: Protesting an Israel Day Parade does not shaking hands with Arafat make. (I am probably more pro-Israel than most and I have serious issues with the Parade. I ignore it, but if I was forced to do one I’d probably be more likely to protest than to march.)

DY: No, but that doesn’t matter. We are Noheg not to allow T’imas Yisrael. Have a Pareve person taste them all.

HaLeiVi: Torah is Torah. I don’t think there’s a reason to hide Shittos. It’s a Shittah that’s been rejected. There’s no reason not to learn it. We don’t wipe R’ Hillel out of our Gemaros in Sanhedrin. It was a Shittah, they were allowed to have it, and we hold that they were mistaken. Rav Moshe Taku (who is quoted in Tosfos) says it explicitly. One would think that if a relatively early Ba’al Hatosfos held of a Shittah that the rest thought was K’firah that someone would mention it. They don’t. It took the Rambam to mention it. There are many Tosfosim that seem to go against our current conceptions of Ikkarei Emunah (see Niddah 16b and Yevamos 66a, I think). That is because our Ikkarim are based on the Rambam and the other Rishonim weren’t Meshubad to them. I think it is dishonest to make anachronistic assumptions about the Rishonim that they clearly didn’t have themselves and one cannot properly learn P’shat in these Rishonim here if you refuse to accept what they’re saying.

That aside, I think Rashi is very, very clear on this. Even if you want to Kabbalistically explain away Rashi in Avos (where he seems to explicitly be coming to argue on the total noncorporealistic Shittah), Rashi to B’reishis (which is clearly based on Bava Basra 58a) and Rashi on “Lo Sa’asun Iti” in Avodah Zarah there are more than clear. This is his Shittah and we have rejected it.

Son of Man: I’ll try and find the Mekoros from the Moreh about making requests from angels.

The “nebach an Apikores…” phrase is what R’ Chaim Brisker said explaining this Rambam (and it’s M’vuar from the explanation the Rambam gives in the Moreh of why an Apikores loses his Chelek).

I think that Pashtus is that Rashi held of a corporealism that the Rambam would call Apikorsus (we’ve been over this here; see Rashi on B’reishis “Na’aseh Adam B’tzalmeinu Kidmuseinu”; see Rashi to Avos 3:14; see Rashbam to Bava Basra 58a; see Rashi to Avodah Zarah where the Gemara Darshens the Passuk “Lo Sa’asun Iti”; and I think there’s a Machzor Vitry that quotes this also but I don’t recall where. Rav Moshe Taku (a seldom-quoted Ba’al Hatosfos) says it B’fierush that he holds that way and the Rambam attacked his Shittah explicitly in a letter. But it would be a tremendous insult to the Rambam that “Gedolim V’tovim Mimenu” that the Ra’avad refers to is R’ Moshe Taku. And I agree that we very much hold they are mistaken. Agreeing with them would be Apikorsus. But there are Rishonim who said it.