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Whiteberry: Once again, that would be terrible. Businesses would be ruined and scam artists and abusers would run amok. There is a reason why talking about people is sometimes allowed. It would be nice if no one said any Asser Lashon Harah, but “going overboard” and being “Fummer than G-d” is not a good idea.
Curioisty: Italics is <em > and bold is <strong >. They’re underneath the place you post in.
Kozov: I’ll look again, but I thought the Shach over there said that Im Yirtzeh applies to any normal Shabbos and Yom Tov as well.
147: Someone told that to me and we actually looked into it. Pashtus is that the flag-bearer was the only member of the Israeli team who was actually M’challel Shabbos. All you do it walk.
It was on Shabbos, which isn’t really Tishah B’av, but the point still stands. And I didn’t look into this, but someone told me that events with Muslims in them were deferred until night whenever possible or they were as early in the morning as possible before the fast had enough time to really affect them.
Mewho: Well, watching the program probably wouldn’t be so Kosher for half of the audience here.
Ready now: What you just stated was a subjective argument. I like to think of myself as unbiased and I try to learn La’amittah Shel Halachah. So please, tell me, (other than calling them nasty and immodest), what is wrong Halachically with loose pants? I have seen women wearing pants that one would think is a skirt until told otherwise. You actually couldn’t tell the difference. What is wrong with those?
Kozov: I honestly don’t know what meaning the religious Zionist community gets from it. Maybe someone should poll them.
Ohr Chodesh: The Drishah is recent? I guess the Sma hasn’t been on the side of Choshen Mishpat for over 500 years now. I don’t recall where, but I believe the Bach somewhere quotes a story about one of the Rishonim and a woman who learned. But I guess the Bach is a “very recent innovation” too.
And it’s two De’os in Tosfos if a woman can be a Dayan, I believe.
Ohr Chodesh: Correct. I would say that any Sephardi woman (aside from certain particular Kehillos that never followed R’ Ovadia) who wears a Sheitel is quite mistaken. Even though I think the Sugya is M’vuar not like R’ Ovadiah, he is still clearly the Posek Hador Ham’kubal for all Sephardim and Chalilah to go against him.
Choppy: That’s what a lot of very Torah-loving people say as well. I have heard similar statements from a few very prominent Roshei Yeshivah.
Choppy: That’s not what R’ Schachter says.
Oh, and see the Tzitz Eliezer (it’s somewhere in the beginning of either 18 or 19; maybe it’s Siman 3 in one of those?).
Ready now: I don’t know about that “most”. Almost any Sephardic Rabbi would be plain wrong if he said that. You can’t go against R’ Ovadiah. So you’re down to half already. And there’s no Makor whatsoever to Asser loose pants. Why would “most Rabbis” have a problem with them (I’m talking Halachically, not societally)?
Curiosity: She wouldn’t have to be a vegetarian though. And meat is hard to prepare. I’m sure many wives would be happy with not having to prepare it much.
Wallflower: She also said how much more meaningful this was for her because it was on the 40th anniversary and the comment about the moment of silence was a clear shot at the IOC who refused to have one.
Choppy: I’m not sure where that came from, but re-read Yabia Omer Yoreh Deah 4:1:8. He comes a lot closer to being Mattir an abortion than anyone else I’ve heard. Or is R’ Ovadiah just a “liberal” that you can write off?
Choppy: It’s nice of you to insult a person you never met (or worse, maybe someone you did). You have no idea who I am talking about and insulting such a person is preposterous. And yes, he was reliable. He was very involved with a lot of people near the state’s founding and was a tremendous Talmid Chacham to boot. He might have said this a bit tongue-in-cheek but I learned a long time ago to take everything that this man said as being mostly true. And whether or not the composer personally had this in mind, I guarantee that some people around him did (the phrase Lihyot Am Chofshi was very controversial and was almost not placed in the song).
Curiosity: All his posts are trolling, some just slightly less so than others.
Kozov: I think my point was that the Pashtus Halashon can mean whatever you want it to mean. Which is fine. Apikorsim distort the Torah all the time, but we don’t let that affect our interpetation of it.
Choppy: I was told by a very reliable and elderly source that the word “Chofshi” was deliberate because it could mean free from religion for the secularists but it was also meant to be M’ramez “Ein Nikra Chofshi Ela Mi Sheosek Batorah”. I was very, very impressed when I heard that. And even if that was not the author/composer’s intent, it’s certainly what I think of whenever I hear it.
Itche: None. And from what I was told the only competitors they have left don’t have a chance to win any either.
Shlishi: Ask any Rav. I think they’ll tell you that if your wife needs help with the housework then you have to help her before learning.
Chacham: I was told that the Rashba’s Shittah on Bal Tigrah (even though R’ Schachter Paskens by it) is a minority opinion in the Rishonim. But yes, that bothers me quite a bit too. R’ Elyashiv had a response to it though, according to one way the story goes.
By the way, I heard a beautiful story just the other day.
A Frum woman from Israel was visiting some relatives of hers in America. She took her young daughter with her. They are a Chareidi family, but the mother thought that as a treat she would take her daughter to Disneyworld (or Disneyland, not sure). The two women of course wore long skirts and loose long-sleeve shirts, even in the blistering heat. There was some sort of parade or something, and many young girls were clamoring around one of the princesses (either Cinderella or Snow White, I think) for autographs and to try and say hello. The “princess” singles out the 11-year-old (give or take) girl and said so that the whole crowd could hear her, “This is the proper way that a young girl and real princess should dress”. That is what Tznius is. It is dignity and refinement even when surrounded by the opposite (even if the opposite is just trying to avoid the heat, which R”L it’s usually not).
Ready now: R’ Henkin and Rav Ovadia both say that very loose pants can be Tznius on a woman. (Although by your statement of “all pants” I assume you mean the vast majority of pants worn by women today. Still, it’s not quite 100% precise.)
Choppy: I don’t know that they are entirely treif. I can certainly agree that (even if you could claim she doesn’t know better and that this is great for her) that publicizing a woman’s accomplishments while performing in a leotard is probably not so good. She does deserve a Yasher Koach for what she did about those who died in Munich though.
ZK: Oh, so I accidentally got what you were going at. 🙂 I thought I was the only annoying Hebrew grammarian here.
Curiosity: I don’t think you’re right but I want to look at the Gemara again first.
Chacham: No. I debate it with myself every day. My father still doesn’t wear them though and he knows all of the Lomdus and the Metzius. Of course, he says that he probably should wear them too but doesn’t say why he doesn’t. So I’m kinda stuck. I’ll probably end up buying a pair soon, wearing it under everything, and still have my normal all-white Tzitzis sticking out. I think that’s the plan for now.
Mason: That’s just not true.
Avi K: That’s not true and you know it. Why attempt the rabble-rousing?
Curiosity: There were many religious early Zionists as well. It’s unfair to lump them all together.
Ohr Chodesh: Many pro-Torah people find meaning in Hatikva too. The lyrics are fairly inspiring when you think about them.
Rbcb: I mentioned that I discussed this already in an earlier thread. Go search the CR and find out why.
Curiosity: It’s Assur for a girl to learn Shelo Lishmah? We certainly don’t promote anti-Torah ideals, but when did people who don’t care about Torah get to create new Issurim for us? If you assume that it’s Muttar for a girl to learn on her own, then there’s no reason not to say Mitoch Shelo Lishmah Bah Lishmah by this. And if you don’t hold like the Drishah, then being Lishmah doesn’t really help.
Interjection: I’m not saying anything in this situation, but that “principal” is just not true. I can speak against using cocaine even though I’ve never done it.
Kozov: It’s a B’feirush Rama in YD 347, if I recall correctly.
Twisted: Okay, so it’s not a Halachic Chumra. It’s a decision not to do something Muttar. That’s fine. I thought you were possibly hinting to two entirely different things, both of which would not have been correct.
Ohr Chodesh: You are 100% right, but it’s not the point you meant to say. Kashrus taken too far will lead to Issurei D’Oraisa of Bal Tashchis. Look at what happened when David Hamelech took Chessed too far. So too, taking any concept (even Tznius) too far can have terrible, terrible consequences. Oh, and the Chazon Ish Paskens older than 3 (precisely what age I refuse to say; search the CR, there’s a thread with me discussing it).
RebRY: You should go ask Mechilah from one of the Gedolei Hador for what you just said and you are probably Chayav Nidui for being Mevaze a Talmid Chacham.
Curiosity: I was somehow involved in a weird age group from a few NCSY regions. These NCSYers were mostly Frum coming into NCSY and it was not the public school-type Kiruv that it usually is in most places. (And your Kasha isn’t a Kasha. In my experience, those who have the most desire to learn Lishma are not those who spend so much time doing it. Those who learn very little have a much easier time learning Lishmah for those precious few moments than those who have and use all day to learn.)
Curiosity: But there’s nothing religious about the anthem or its foundation. Russian drinking songs weren’t Chukas Hagoyim. This shouldn’t be either.
Sof Davar: I believe the later stanzas talk about the flag as a person, but I could be mistaken. It’s been a while since I looked at the whole thing.
RebRY: There is a fairly long list of Gedolim who wear the trunculus T’cheiles. And R’ Herschel Shchachter is well known as a very strong advocate of it.
Choppy: Wrong. That’s a B’feirsuh Rama. You only have to eat meat on Shabbos and Yom Tov if you want to.
Curiosity: I’m not sure what you meant by that. I was making a grammatical point.
And I know a lot of girls who learn. Many are also feminists, but they don’t learn to be “equal” to boys. A lot of them learn because they see beauty in Torah and have an unquechable thirst for knowledge and Emes. That’s what I see all the time in girls who come through NCSY and the like. They’re not learning for the wrong reasons.
Yitay: I’m sorry. It’s too bad that someone here couldn’t just discuss a Halachic concept without making personal attacks.
Curiosity: Something is not Assur unless there is an Issur. You don’t need a source to be Matir something. I don’t think that it’s Chukas Hagoyim to sing a national anthem, but I could hear a Tzad that America’s national anthem is borderline Avodah Zarah because it personifies an inanimate object.
Itche: Good, they should know and realize all of the tremendous good that he does for Yiddishkeit.
Just to be clear, the Ba’al Hamaor did not write the Ba’al Hamaor. V’hameivin Yavin.
Shlishi: I’m not disagreeing with any Halachos. That was not the implication I got from your post though. I apologize if it was just my misinterpretation. (And, by the way, if you want to be M’dameh Kavod for a husband to that for a father, then the husband can be Mochel on her sitting in his seat.)
GAW: Look at either the last or second to last paragraph in Igros Moshe CM 2:11 (maybe it’s 2:12?). It doesn’t relate it to Hirhur (sort of) but it means something (what it means, exactly, I’m still not sure).
GAW: It should be in the Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah on the Rif on that Daf in Brachos, if I recall correctly.
Shlishi: Wrong. Fear is not the proper translation of Mora. Awe would be a much better translation.
Choppy: So it would seem, though it is possible he holds of the Drisha (he never explicitly Paskens against it, does he?). The issue of a school curriculum would be problematic even according to the Mekilim by a woman learning. (Read the introduction to Chelek 8, by the way. I don’t hold of 8 and 9 the way I hold of the first 7, but there is a very interesting story about R’ Moshe’s grandmother in the introduction.)
Choppy: Return to the ways of the RBSO? What’s wrong with being a vegetarian?
Twisted: Why would you require eating only grass and Shechted in front of you? I feel like both of those “Chumras” are against clear Gemaras.
GAW: No, Rabbeinu Yonah actually holds that. Then again, he holds that even eyes are Ervah because they are praised in Shir Hashirim. Suffice it to say I think no one holds like the Rabbeinu Yonah.
Cherrybim: It seems to go against what is written in the T’shuvos. Unless she has a letter or this is publicly known, it just won’t carry the same weight. I’m sorry.