Shimon Katz

commonsaychel – It’s a bit more complicated than you think to do that on such a large scale, and some of the things you suggest probably aren’t even legal here, although there are some very nice (and pricey) projects that specifically market to American Olim.

ujm said: “People like Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ahron Kotler, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski, Rav Shimon Shkop, Rav Yisrael Salanter, The Ben Ish Chai, ​The Rogatchover Gaon, the Alter of Slabodka, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Meir Shapiro, The Chasam Sofer, The Vilna Gaon, The Baal Shem Tov, The Noda B’Yehuda, ​The Pele Yoetz, The Rema, The Mechaber, The Rosh, The Rif, Rabbeinu Tam and even Rashi didn’t live in Eretz Yisroel.”

Interesting list you put together.

The Mechaber and the Alter of Slabodka (for approximately the last decade of his life) did live in Eretz Yisroel.

The Rosh, the Baal Shem Tov, and the Vilna Gaon attempted to move to Eretz Yisroel or at least temporarily live there, but didn’t make it.

The Ben Ish Chai couldn’t leave his Kehillah to move permanently, but he invested enormous effort to make the dangerous trek through the Syrian Desert by camel caravan to visit Eretz Yisroel.

The Chofetz Chaim, Rav Shimon Shkop (was offered to head Mercaz Harav…), and Rav Aharon Kotler seriously considered and even began to make practical preparations to move to Eretz Yisroel, but ended up not going for various reasons.

A number of the descendants of Rashi and Rabbeinu Tam or their disciples did move to Eretz Yisroel, at great risk (during the Crusades). They include Rash M’Shantz, Rabbeinu Yechiel of Paris, and a group of 300 בעלי התוספות. (They are buried together in a cave in Haifa appropriately named מערת בעלי התוספות, where some also say the Ramban is buried, although that is less clear.)

None of this is meant to agree with “evalimoshav” and the many mistakes in his post, but Eretz Yisroel was and is closer to the hearts of Klal Yisroel and גדולי ישראל than you seem to think.

Dear Yankel Berel.

First of all, I am מוחה on the language you used to describe the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל, and on your cutting and pasting material from my post to include in such a post. I would never have gotten involved in this conversation if I had a הוה אמינא it would be גורם any additional זלזול, which I was trying to avoid. Everyone knows about the “controversy” surrounding the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל, and about the “controversy” surrounding many great figures in the history of Klal Yisroel, who are today accepted by all as צדיקים and גדולי תורה. I assume you learn the works of Ramchal זי״ע and Rav Yonasan Eibschitz זי״ע, and the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע inspires a large portion of Klal Yisroel down to today (whether anyone on the other ביזוי תלמיד חכמים thread likes it or not), so in the long run מחלוקת is no indicator of anything. I don’t care about הסכמות and “pashkevilim” etc. Both sides can be Tzadikim Gemurim, but such a הסכמה etc. is not a Hechsher for someone like me or you to get involved. Learn the Parshas Hashavuah if you have any doubts about that.

This is a מחאה only, not an invitation for further discussion. Please DO NOT respond to this post. I will not be posting further.

א פרייליכען חנוכה

Dear Dr. Yaakov.

To recap the main points from my earlier reply to Yankel Berel:

1. The Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל was a Heiliger Tzaddik who accomplished enormous good in the world, and left behind a rich legacy in writing, in other media, and in the people he inspired, which continues to generate more good and be mekarev countless Yidden to Hashem and His Torah literally worldwide.

2. WRT individual Chabad Chassidim or groups within Chabad, the matzav basically is “buyer beware”. I sincerely believe that real hard core Kefirah/AZ ר״ל is far less prevalent than you seem to suggest, and I have internal Chabad sources (hostile to the “Atzmut Mahutniks”) to back that assessment up. The Meshichist nonsense, with its attendant ideological flip-flops etc. is (for the vast majority of its adherents) just nonsense, not כפירה בעיקרי האמונה.

3. As previously mentioned, I am more concerned with the legacy of the Rebbe זצ״ל than with the beliefs of any particular Chabad Chossid. Very many people learn the Rebbe’s Seforim and are inspired by them, and there are quite a few very learned and Ehrliche Mashpiyim who do have a clear and level-headed השקפת החיים based on the Rebbe’s teachings.

To which I would add:

4. Anyone who writes a whole book pushing a certain position cannot be seen as an unbiased source of information on followers of the opposite position. That’s just common sense. So I don’t really care what Dr. Berger says about Chabad, the same way I don’t care what YYA says about you.

5. If you really want to find out where Rabbi Manis Friedman is holding, you should do exactly as YYA suggested: Present yourself as an “ally” who is interested in Chabad philosophy, and start asking him questions unlikely to arouse suspicion. This way, you strike up a conversation with him until you ask him to explain the stuff in the video etc. Prepare in advance quotes from Chabad sources, including the last Rebbe, that contradict his claims (as you understand them). If he doubles down, present him with the material. See what his reaction is.

Personally, I have enough to do to fix myself before I have time to go around fixing the world, but if you want to give it a try that should at least give you some accurate feedback.

ujm:

Of course he held of demonstrations. Just not together with Arabs. בשום פנים ואופן A very small detail that you left out…

Yaakov Yosef,

A little humility and menschlichkeit will get you a long way. I too don’t quite understand Pshat how calling Chabad “another religion” ח״ו goes together with Davening in a Chabad Shul, but I am open to hearing an answer.

Yankel Berel,

The strange delays imposed by the unpredictable process of moderation on YWN resulted in me seeing your posts with a delay, and my response to you only appearing now.

Dear Yankel Berel.

I read through your last few posts. As I have mentioned previously, I am not a Chabad Chossid. As far as I’m concerned, the bottom line of all of this is:

1. The Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל was a Heiliger Tzaddik who accomplished enormous good in the world, and left behind a rich legacy in writing, in other media, and in the people he inspired, which continues to generate more good and be mekarev countless Yidden to Hashem and His Torah literally worldwide.

2. If you know a little about the history of the Chabad movement through the generations, the intense devotion to the Rebbe of the generation was always there, and goes back to the devotion of the Baal HaTanya זי״ע to the Mezritcher Maggid זי״ע. The main חידוש of the last Rebbe (which actually started to a much more limited extent with the Rayatz זצ״ל, but that is besides the point for now) is the move to turn Chassidus outwards, with the resulting enormous influx of Baalei Teshuva of all kinds. (Also large numbers of non-Chabad FFB who became Chabad later.) This changed the entire landscape of the Chassidus, לטוב ולמוטב. There are those within Chabad itself who identify as “Old Chabad” or “Gez” as the internal slang goes. The percentage of deviation etc. by them is far lower. ודי למבין

3. The התנגדות that you mentioned was in fact (whether you like it or not) directed against the totality of Chabad, with undercurrents of the original Machlokes against Chassidus itself, which is why the other Chassidim didn’t join in. Why should the Litvaks expect to be able to force the (non-Chabad) Chassidim (the majority of voters by all accounts) to toe their line? This was the root of the split in Agudas Yisroel, Chabad was just one of the more high profile triggers. None of this is intended to belittle in any way the Heiliger Tzaddikim and Geonim of the Litvish camp, just to put the Chassidish POV in perspective. Machlokes between Tzaddikim unfortunately has been with us since the time of Yossef HaTzaddik and the Shevatim. It isn’t our business to butt in, as much as there is a Yetzer Hara to do so.

4. WRT individual Chabad Chassidim or groups within Chabad, the matzav basically is “buyer beware”. I sincerely believe that real hard core Kefirah/AZ ר״ל is far less prevalent than you and Dr. Yaakov seem to suggest, and I have internal Chabad sources (hostile to the “Atzmut Mahutniks”) to back that assessment up. The Meshichist nonsense, with its attendant ideological flip-flops etc. is just nonsense, not כפירה בעיקרי האמונה.

5. As previously mentioned, I am more concerned with the legacy of the Rebbe זצ״ל than with the beliefs of any particular Chabad Chossid. Very many people learn the Rebbe’s Seforim and are inspired by them, and there are quite a few very learned and Ehrliche Mashpiyim who do have a clear and level-headed השקפת החיים based on the Rebbe’s teachings.

Dear Dr. Yaakov and Yankel Berel,

OK, now I have a somewhat better picture of what you are driving at, although my personal take on this is a bit different.

First of all, I agree, and said so in my previous post, that there are large numbers of Chabadniks who believe things that are wrong, mainly WRT “Meshichism”. The Nevua stuff is essentially a corollary of the Moshiach part. (IMHO the original Sicha was not meant to refer to Nevua in the Halachic sense, which would require explicitly saying some prediction IN HASHEM’S NAME, something neither the Rayatz זצ״ל or the last Rebbe זצ״ל ever remotely claimed to do. To say someone is ראוי to be a Novi, that his Ruach Hakodesh is close to Nevuah etc. is dangerous but not Kefirah.) However, the hard-core Kefirah and Avoda Zarah Chevra that THEY THEMSELVES mockingly refer to as “Atzmut Mahutniks” and THEY THEMSELVES repeatedly attempted to (physically) kick out of 770, are FAR SMALLER in number.

My assertion that the “Atzmut Mahutniks” number several hundred at most is not a random guess. A relative of mine worked as a Shochet in a meat plant under the Hashgacha of Rav Bistritzky ז״ל from Tzfas, who was one of the biggest fighters against the “Atzmut Mahutniks” (they attempted to physically assault him more than once), and he heard from the Rov that their numbers are no more than 300. I don’t know if there are more or less of them today, but I have never encountered any of them in real life.

אגב, I never saw the video of Rabbi Friedman, and I don’t use YouTube. If you can refer me to a downloadable version I would appreciate it.

But that isn’t what “Chassidus Chabad” is all about. On the one hand you have 540 volumes of Chiddushei Torah spanning over 200 years, including the enormous breadth and depth of the last Rebbe זצ״ל contribution, and on the other hand you have some social media performers and confused Baalei Teshuvah?

לא חיליק ידענא ולא ביליק ידענא, מתניתא ידענא I have learned many of the works of all of the Rebbes of Chabad, including the last Rebbe זצ״ל, and I have never encountered anything remotely resembling “Mitzvos being optional” or anything of the sort. In fact, a very interesting ספר has been published by several important משפיעים from Yerushalayim called יהדות ללא פשרות, which collects hundreds of letters and Sichos of the Rebbe זצ״ל that spell out in no uncertain terms the centrality of Halacha and the fact that no deviations are allowed, even for purposes of outreach. If you are seriously interested in this subject, it would be worth your while to get a copy of that Sefer.

Continued.

So, Reb SomeJew, what is the היתר to act like a “Zionist” and be מפקיר Jewish lives, even theoretically, supposedly in the name of “anti-Zionism”? This is why the Divrei Yoel זצ״ל DID NOT hold of the disgusting antics of the people in the news every other day who call themselves Neturei Karta (who אגב probably aren’t even coordinated with the Yerushalmi group of the same name, although I can’t prove that conclusively.)

Dear “DaMoshe”,

You have asserted more than once on this thread that “Chassidus as taught by the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע no longer exists”, or was changed due to the influence of those who opposed him. Could you please provide some concrete examples, backed up by מראי מקומות that can be fact-checked (עדות שאתה יכול להזימה), of ideas beliefs or practices innovated by the Baal Shem Tov, which were adopted by his Talmidim, but stopped later due to the influence of the Misnagdim? Please don’t forget to provide written sources from the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע himself or his first-generation Talmidim that the Baal Shem Tov in fact held of these ideas or practices, not claims made by the Misnagdim.

Thank you.

SomeJewIKnow, you called Mercaz Harav a “church”, then you said “Of course I’ve been to Mirkaz Harav”. What were you doing there and what was your hetter to enter a church?

“I know a number of people that continue to learn Torah in that church of heresy every day.”

That’s an interesting sentence, isn’t it?

Dear Dr. Yaakov (qwerty613) and Yankel Berel.

My personal interaction with Chabad is primarily through learning the Seforim of the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל (Mainly the Maamorim, as well as the collected Sichos on the Moadim or by subject שערי אמונה etc.), as well as of all the generations of Chassidus Chabad. I am not a “Chabadnik” myself, but I learn the Seforim like any Sefer Chassidus, and there is a wealth of profound ideas and inspiration there. I have also heard shiurim from Rav Yoel Cahan ז״ל, who was in charge of writing most of the Maamorim, as well as יבדל״ח Rav Yitchok Meir Morgenstern שליט״א, who isn’t Chabad but draws extensively on Chabad sources. I have never seen or heard anything in any of these sources that suggests any deviation from Orthodox Jewish belief or practice.

Obviously, I am aware of the “Meshichist” movement. (Which affects much or most of Chabad, but not all of them, and comes in different gradations.) Naming a specific individual as Moshiach is factually wrong and dangerous, but not inherently כפירה. The “Dvar Malchus” was edited by hard-core Meshichists, not by the normal editing staff of the “Likutey Sichos” and twisted in many places to support their claims. Most of the material was published after the Rebbe זצ״ל was no longer able to edit Sichos, something they took full advantage of. This is despite their claim to the contrary, based on the first few pamphlets they published that were in fact edited. For this reason, many Chabadniks do not consider these “Sichos” to be “canonical” or even reliable. I did take the trouble to go find a hard copy of Dvar Malchus (which I don’t have in my house) and check out the Sicha mentioned by Yankel Berel, (hence the delay in response), and it is a classic example of such manipulation. It is deliberately parsed in such a way as to blur the distinction (specifically made in the beginning of the part about Nevua) the Rebbe himself makes between “Ruach Hakodesh” in the sense normative Judaism does believe still exists, (and belief in which some hold to be included in the general belief in Nevua, which is the takeaway from the first quote of the Rambam as interpreted by the Rebbe, which can be debated but definitely isn’t any sort of Kefirah) and bona fide Nevua which the Rambam in Iggeres Teiman (quoted inside) explicitly DOES say STOPPED COMPLETELY and will return only at or close to the advent of the final Geula.

As far as item #1. Anecdotally, I have visited “Kehot” in Crown Heights from time to time to buy Seforim, and sometimes shmuzed with the people who work there. On one such occasion, the guy at the counter mentioned with disgust the “Atzmut Mahutniks”, (the group I assume you are referring to) who he claimed number no more than several hundred people, and are based primarily in Tzfat, but as I have mentioned, I never met any such person face to face in real life. לצורך העניין and to save time, forgive me for assuming in advance that you are concerned about popular misconceptions of either the “Atzmus Mahus” sicha, or about “Hiskashrus”. (The latter isn’t even a Chabad issue per se, but more on that later.) In order to discuss this (very serious) issue, I need to understand more about where you are coming from. Are you familiar with the Tanya and the later Seforim of Chabad? With Sifrei Chassidus in general? Have you learned “Litvish” sources on inyanei Kabbalah such as Nefesh Hachaim, the works of Rav Yitzchok Aizik Chaver זצ״ל, the works of Ramchal זצ״ל? Do you accept the legitimacy of Chassidus altogether? What about the Chabad Rebbes of previous generations? [The answers to those questions affects the amount of background necessary to provide as opposed to simply marei mekomos, and the “Litvish” mekubalim use different terminology to refer to the same concepts Chassidim also believe in, which can create confusion if you are familiar with one system but not the other.]

Item # 4. I have yet to see anything from the Rebbe himself remotely close to suggesting any leniency or “optionality” in any area of Halacha. Everyone knows that R’ Shlomo Carlebach parted ways with Chabad because the Rebbe refused to permit any relaxing of Halachic restrictions, even for Kiruv, even thing many MO fudge לכתחילה. As far as Rabbi Friedman is concerned, personally, I am not a fan of “YouTube Rabbis” in general, not just Chabad but any of them. The medium doesn’t exactly lend itself to serious discussion of anything, and it becomes more theater than Shiur. I don’t feel any need to be מתרץ anyone in Chabad other than the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל himself.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

By “turning back the clock” I mean that if, lets say too many Jews came to Eretz Yisroel which would be ״שלא יעלו כחומה״ (even though less than 7% of כלל ישראל were living in Eretz Yisroel in ’48), so then the תיקון would be for them to move away? If their arrival was somehow assur, so is it assur for them to stay once there?

Ujm said “We are following in the footsteps of HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt”l, who also spoke theoretically when he paskened that it is absolutely worthwhile and even obligatory for the State of Isrel to surrender land to the Arabs for peace, if in fact surrendering land to the Arabs would result in peace.”

He wasn’t speaking theoretically. He was asked by the Chareidi politicians whether to vote in favor of the “Oslo Agreement”. He never for a second suggested the State of Israel surrender its entire sovereignty to the Arabs or anyone else, which is what you are suggesting. He also qualified his psak, as you said “IF in fact surrendering land to the Arabs would result in peace.” That’s a really big IF, don’t you think so?

If we had Daylight Saving Time all year it would cause many people to have difficulty Davening Shachris and putting on Tefillin at the right time. Jews have managed with short Fridays for a very long time, like 3300 years or so, so לכאורה most have it under control more or less. You could always move to Florida where Shkiya in winter is almost an hour later anyway.

somejewiknow, you really mean this: “Zoinists love that part of naziism, that and the beard cutting and tefillin burning. Some at the Mirkaz Harav Church don’t realize the endgame of their leaders.”

Are you OK? Have you ever been to Mercaz Harav or know someone who went there? When there was a terrorist shooting attack there some years ago, the Satmar Rebbe (don’t remember which one) burst into tears and took several minutes until he could calm down. Some Chassidim who were there were surprised. He said to them “They are Yidden like we are Yidden, they were sitting in a Beis Medresh learning the same Torah we learn.” I don’t think he would have been so upset about a shooting in a church.

Qwerty613, excuse me for butting in, but you said four things, of which I have only heard of one.

1. The belief that the Rebbe is a deity.

2. That he was a Novi.

3. That he is Moshiach.

4. That the Torah laws are no longer obligatory.

I have only heard of number three, which בפשטות is wrong but not כפירה. I don’t know any Lubavitcher who believes number one רחמנא ליצלן. Number four would make all of their Mitzvah Campaigns irrelevant, so that also doesn’t seem to make sense. Number two I never heard of. Moshiach is supposed to be a Novi, but I never heard of anything said by the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L in Hashem’s name as a Nevuah. Could you perhaps clarify?

This “conversation” has one whopper of a title! Ujm, don’t you think you exaggerated a little?

Reb Ujm, who are you making this offer to? Every time any sort of peace plan was proposed to the Arabs, they refused. From before the State was founded down to today. Why is this plan different? Who would even be able to make such an offer legally?