Shimon Katz

Dear Dr. Yaakov.

If your problem was only with Chabad, then I could understand that, even if I disagree. (I also don’t appreciate you saying that I defend my “god” ר״ל. I am not a Lubavitcher myself [not that they have a different “god” ר״ל], and I learn the works of many Chassidish and non-Chassidish Gedolim, including those opposed to Chabad.) But if you also call “Millerites(?)” “not Jews”, then there is a pattern here which suggests that there is a bigger issue going on. Judaism is not about “every man and his truth”. We defer to authority and we defer to Mesorah. Who, what, how, how much, etc., can be debated. But not the basic יסוד. Otherwise each individual or each congregation in Cedarhurst or wherever would have to go up a hill and build a Bamah and come up with their own Judaism. I don’t think that is what Rabbi Plutchik had in mind. Ask him what he thinks about my comments, I would appreciate it. The early Maskilim were convinced that they had discovered the “truth”, which they held to be self-evident. Turns out that “self-evident” is a very dangerous phrase. So, yes, we do defer to authority, and that makes us Jews, not cult members ר״ל.

Yankel Berel – Read carefully what you wrote about the Sotah and understand that you just were מתרץ Rav Friedman… I didn’t want to go there but you did. And it may not even be necessary to go that far.

Dr. Yaakov said: Shimon Katz and yedl are both good guys and they’re exceedingly bright, so why can’t we get through to them? For many years I had a close relationship with Rabbi Miller’s Talmid Muvhak. I eventually had to part ways with him because of Chabad. He refused to listen to anything I said because Rabbi Miller liked Chabd and the Rebbe and that was all she wrote. Shimon and yedl have their reasons for being attached to Chabad and the Rebbe and so they’re hopelessly lost.

I’m pretty sure “Rav Miller’s Talmid Muvhak” was smarter than me, and you apparently hold me to be smarter than you. So why SHOULD he listen to you? Even if you are sure you are right. Are you willing to at least accept the POSSIBILITY that your own understanding of the issues (both שיטה and מציאות) is lacking? That would put you in a much safer position regardless of what you actually do למעשה. You certainly would tone down the language used when discussing people admittedly bigger than us in many ways.

As far as the Gemara in Sanhedrin. There is also a מאן דאמר there that says there won’t be a גאולה altogether… You know there are some other quotes there the Meshichist loonies like to use also. So we don’t know anything about what that Gemara really means. They don’t and you also don’t. Something the Rambam says בפירוש in הלכות מלכים.

qwerty – “A few weeks ago, a Lubavich woman on VIN excused all lost Jews by stating, “they’re confused because of the long, bitter Golus.”

“A Lubavitch woman on VIN”. OK, a very solid source. That being said, do you seriously think 99% of contemporary non-Frum Jews are NOT “confused because of the long, bitter Golus.”?! Think about it for a moment. How many FRUM people are confused on basic inyanim of Emunah, despite living a fully observant lifestyle. Including many right here on YWN. Does this come from senseless and malicious רשעות, or from the great spiritual and physical upheavals of the last 250 years? So when the Ba’al Shem Tov and other Tzadikkim, who foresaw ברוח קדשם what Klal Yisroel would go through, or later Tzadikkim who saw it happening, started deemphasizing ‘fire and brimstone’ תוכחה, and speaking more openly about Hashem’s love for his children, was that a bad thing in your humble opinion? Forget about YouTube drashos and sound bites. Move past it. Look into the rich world of Chassidus (not just Chabad), and you will find a fresh new perspective, and a more positive one at that.

qwerty Re. Elokistim

None of the statements you quoted and dramatized indicate ‘Elokist’ beliefs. What Rav Cunin said is tantamount to saying the Rebbe is Moshiach, no more. “Running the world” is a melodramatic way of saying צדיק גוזר והקדוש ברוך הוא מקיים, which ISN’T AZ or Shituf according to any Shittah, and jives with how Chabad interpret stories of earlier Tzadikkim, even other than Chabad. “Everything we have in our lives etc.” is called הכרת הטוב. They wouldn’t have known about Yiddishkeit altogether without Chabad. So they appreciate it. Same for the ‘shadow’ etc. Chabad Rabbis mention Hashem much more often than most Litvaks and many contemporary Chassidim do… (Which is a topic for a different and more important discussion. Of how one can be fully ‘Chareidi’ and do everything ‘by the book’ and yet have no real conscious connection with Hashem. Something Chassidus in general and Chabad especially railed against through the generations.)

AAQ Please do read the ‘whole long post’ if you want to understand what I am actually saying.

AAQ: So, Jews – and non-Jews – serving in the American army deserve their level of respect. How does this contradict the fact that IDF protects Jews in Israel?

It doesn’t. But American GIs aren’t “kedoshim”. They do deserve “their level” of respect. But the “sheep to the slaughter” (including the עשרה הרוגי מלכות for goodness sake…) deserve MUCH MORE respect than them, not less.

AAQ: I did not read this whole long thread, so I may be not following this. Are you in the camp of “Jews could have lived in other places”?

This isn’t at all the subject of my post. ZSK went back “2000 years”. Including ALL the REAL קדושים of all time, and threw them under the bus of כחי ועוצם ידי machismo.

AAQ: This is not true historically – before WW2 and after WW2, there was no place in US or UK for all Jews of Europe. Same for Sephardi and Soviet Jews, majority of whom found a save place in Israel. Undoubtedly, early zionists and state of Israel saved Jewish lives.

(Note that this has nothing to do with anything I wrote, but if you asked already…)

Baloney. There was much more infrastructure and local Jewish wealth in the US and other places than there was in ‘British Palestine’. It would have been easier and safer for Jews to go to other places. The Zionists (including Stephen Wise who advised Roosevelt on “Jewish matters”) wouldn’t hear of it. You also seem to assume that any Jew who wanted to move to EY during the 30s could do so freely. That was not true. Mainly because of the Arab backlash to Zionism and the resultant British fear of unrest in Muslim parts of their empire.

AAQ: Furthermore, in terms of assimilation, Israeli Jews are fairing much better than those who settled elsewhere. Even those who are not religious, have a high chance of marrying someone Jewish.

So what, that has nothing to do with who is or isn’t a קדוש, and what Judaism says about the value or lack thereof of “going down with a fight”. Someone pointed out yesterday that Ben Gurion’s own son managed to marry a shiksa and live with her in Israel. So “stopping intermarriage” wasn’t why they made Israel, was it…

AAQ: I think you should be able to use your own solar panels or connect them between nearby houses to be totally “off the grid”. Meah solar panels over Meah shaarim.

They do exactly that, among other things. There are more Halachically and technically viable solutions now than there ever were, which could be applied nationwide if the State would want to use them.

Dr. Yaakov זאל זיין געזונט

WADR, I am not ‘shilling’ for anyone. Nothing that I said is a secret or in need of verification. As mentioned before, I don’t care about what Rabbi Manis Friedman did or didn’t say or mean. (Although I suspect that he isn’t really a kofer…) If you care enough, his publicly listed cellphone number is 1-973-449-6777. Call him and ask. I believe ‘Atzmut Mahutniks/Elokistim’ do exist, but I have never met one in real life, and apparently neither did you, despite both of us knowing many Lubavitchers. So I am skeptical as to how many there really are. If you can find one, I have plenty to ask him…

This proposal (Erdos-Straus Conjecture) has been tested and confirmed by supercomputers up to 10^17, but it has never been PROVEN in the absolute mathematical sense.

ZSK: Christianity is a replacement theology. Its “Messiah” claimed the Torah was a temporary “tutor” and that the “New Israel” (the Church) replaced the “Old Israel” (the Jews). It is fundamentally an exit strategy from being Jewish. Zionism is the exact opposite. It is the refusal to disappear into the “non-Jewish nations” that the author claims to despise. To compare a movement that forces the world to recognize Jewish identity with a religion that sought to erase it is a total inversion of reality.

Leaving aside the Avodah Zarah aspect, the secular Zionist narrative of Jewish history and their vision for the Jewish people actually dovetails nicely with the Christian version. Both claimed the Torah had a role only temporarily (the Zionists saw it as a way to maintain national identity in Galus), both claimed to replace the Torah with something else (in the case of Zionism with 19th century Romantic Nationalism, mainly based on Hegel), Zionism in particular is precisely “fundamentally an exit strategy from being Jewish” (in the Torah sense of Judaism, while still insisting on calling oneself Jewish as a secular national identity.)

ZSK: Zionism is the exact opposite. It is the refusal to disappear into the “non-Jewish nations” that the author claims to despise. To compare a movement that forces the world to recognize Jewish identity with a religion that sought to erase it is a total inversion of reality.

Actually, secular Zionism began as a response to the non-Jewish nations refusal to ALLOW the Jews to escape their identity. No one ever needed or wanted to “force the world to recognize Jewish identity”, the “world” forced the assimilationists to confront their own Jewish identity, and they continue to force Israel to confront its Jewish identity. And they do a really good job, without anyone forcing them…

ZSK: A Moshiach Sheker (False Messiah) is someone who claims Divine authority to change the Law or replace God.

Some of them also did that, but since the real Jewish Moshiach will not change the Torah or replace Hashem ח״ו, the fake ones didn’t need to do that to claim to be Moshiach, although some did do so for fun and profit.

ZSK: Christians created a god-man. The Zionists, for the most part, didn’t claim to be Moshiach at all.

The difference is that the secular Zionists, unlike the Christians, didn’t believe in anything, so how exactly could they claim to be Moshiach? The Religious Zionists did that for them.

ZSK: They claimed to be a rescue party.

No, they did not. More exactly, they claimed to rescue the Jews from their “wretched state” (not in the physical sense) which they blamed on Judaism. They believed that doing so would also end antisemitism, which they believed to be justified due to the “wretched” behavior of the Jews. I’m not going to go into yet another discussion about how Zionism only caused more antisemitism, and how secular Zionists sabotaged any sort of rescue of Jews to any location other than ‘British Palestine’ הלא הם כתובים על ספר דברי הימים. Zionism was not (and is not) about rescuing Jews from anything other than ‘Galus Mentality’ i.e. Judaism.

ZSK: If a building is on fire and a team of men puts up a ladder to save the children inside, only a sociopath stands at the bottom screaming, “Don’t use the ladder! It’s a false messiah! Wait for the divine elevator!”

Herzl ימח שמו did not find a “building on fire”, nor did he care about Jewish suffering per se. He saw antisemitism as a useful tool to convince Jews to join his secular nationalistic project. He said so to many non-Jewish leaders as well… More like a terrorist setting your proverbial building on fire to force out the children and kidnap them. If you consider the pogroms in Russia to be the “fire”, millions of Jews left Russia for the USA and other locations in the two decades before Zionism got started.

ZSK: Also, you can stop calling RZ Rabbonim “priests” now. It’s an unnecessary ad hominem.

Agreed, that is disgusting.

ZSK: Religious Zionism produces some of the most rigorous Talmidei Chachamim (Torah scholars) in the world.

לו יהי כדבריך, the issue isn’t their scholarship, or even their ehrlichkeit, which definitely exists in a major way. The issue is certain serious mistakes in their ideology.

ZSK: They didn’t “ignore” the Torah; they rediscovered the parts of the Torah that the author has conveniently forgotten in the comfort of his Exile—the laws of Yishuv Ha’Aretz, the laws of Jewish sovereignty, and the laws of Pikuach Nefesh on a national scale.

הלוואי that the Zionists would have “ignored” the Torah. The secular Zionists attempted to create a new ‘anti-Torah’ of secular national identity and retrofit it into the real Torah through such means as teaching Tanach through the lens of revisionist history, and reinterpretation of Jewish holidays and practices in a secular nationalistic way, among other things. The Religious Zionists bended and twisted the Torah to “solve problems” that never should have existed to begin with, often using the excuses of “Yishuv Ha’Aretz”, maintaining Jewish “sovereignty”, and “Pikuach Nefesh on a national scale”. (Wait, I thought the Zionists were putting out those nasty “fires” of “Pikuach Nefesh on a national scale”. Whoops, I guess that didn’t work so well, did it?)

ZSK: As for “sending their children off to die in wars… just like the non-Jewish nations”. For 2,000 years, Jewish children were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army. To imply that there is no difference between a Jew dying as a helpless victim of a Cossack and a Jew dying as a soldier defending EY is an insult to the Kedoshim.

There are multiple problems with this string of non-sequiturs (including כפירה). Let’s focus for now on the circular reasoning. Why is a “Jew dying as a soldier defending EY” (actually, defending the secular country of Israel) fundamentally any different than “the non-Jewish nations sending their children off to die in wars” defending THEIR nations? Why is there any religious significance or any other ערך מוסף specifically when one dies in defense of Israel. Don’t tell me stories about “protecting Jews”. There are plenty of Jews protected by the US Army (including those in Israel…) Your warped redefinition of קדוש is limited to defense of a very specific political entity that RZ have imbued with Messianic levels of קדושה, even though its founders and leaders don’t even believe in קדושה altogether, (although that never stopped them from making emotional references to קדושים when it suited their purposes.) Why is that not an insult to the REAL קדושים who died to remain faithful to Hashem and His Torah? Remember that up until the Holocaust, almost without exception, there was always an ‘escape clause’ of adopting the non-Jewish religion, something countless Jews were PROUD to be “slaughtered like sheep” NOT to do. Those are our REAL Kedoshim and Giborim הכובש את יצרו, who we make a מי שברך for (right before you proudly make the מי שברך for the State envisioned by the ימח שמו וזכרו who, as per his own diary, wanted to bring כלל ישראל to convert to Catholicism, before he switched to nationalism, and later his children became משומדים without being forced.) A Jew (or Druze or Arab volunteer) who dies for Israel (only two-thirds of which is even located inside about half of “EY”) is not religiously different than an American soldier who dies for America (which is home to more Jews…)

אלא מאי, your problem isn’t with the spilling of Jewish blood. Your problem is with “helplessness”. With “like sheep to the slaughter” Something we proudly say in Davening as a זכות for us – ובכל זאת שמך לא שכחנו. The Zionists did the “best” job of להשכיחם שמך ever. But they didn’t like the sheep stuff… So they made up a new ethos of “no more sheep” and also no more ״שמך לא שכחנו״ Chas Veshalom. Why do you, and so many more RZ like you, who Daven every day, and say these words every Monday and Thursday, buy into a bogus ideology that says the exact opposite? Sounds a lot like the title of this thread, doesn’t it?

We are sheep for the slaughter and proud of it, as long as ובכל זאת שמך לא שכחנו. And if ח״ו someone DOES forget Hashem ר״ל, no amount of muscle and bravery makes him worthy of any sort of honor. Don’t even start building straw man arguments about “what if he dies protecting Jews”. Without Hashem, someone like that could easily kill Jews or send Jews to die in order to further the cause he believes in and is ready to die for. You know well that such things have actually happened.

Dr. Yaakov aka qwerty said – We’re discussing the present iteration of Chabad as derived from their last Rebbe, so why do you tell us about the previous Rebbe?

Because there is a continuity of what they were doing and what they believed in. The last Rebbe saw the Rayatz as his Rebbe and mentor, and the Rayatz personally chose him both as a son-in-law and to head key projects and institutions he held dear, including the ‘Mercaz’ aka the Shlichus project. So you cannot simply separate between them.

AAQ – The term “Chabad House” was first used in LA in 1969. The concept of Shlichus as we know it today goes back at least to the ’40s (contrary to what some may think, it was the Rayatz who started the “Shlichus” phenomenon). NCSY is not only or even primarily a ‘Kiruv’ organization, although de-facto it does also do that. “Kiruv” literally means “drawing closer”, which can be understood on many levels both quantitatively and qualitatively. Some also don’t like that term at all, for various reasons. Be that as it may, any “Kiruv Professional” of any sort or flavor will readily tell you that ‘Kiruv’ isn’t a numbers game. I once asked a senior staff member at Ohr Someiach what their ‘success rate’ is. He didn’t like the question.. Basically he said that for one person ‘success’ is deciding to marry Jewish (with no further commitment). For another it might be doing some Mitzvos or giving their kids some sort of Jewish education. For some it means becoming fully Shomer Shabbos. Some end up going to Kollel and getting Semicha. This was a Litvak talking. I think that with Lubavitch the picture is basically the same. So any degree of ‘coming closer’ to Hashem and His Torah is a really big deal לכל השיטות ולכל הדיעות. That you have to hand to whoever is willing to walk the walk. It is not easy work, certainly if you live in some crazy third world country.

commonsaychel – It’s a bit more complicated than you think to do that on such a large scale, and some of the things you suggest probably aren’t even legal here, although there are some very nice (and pricey) projects that specifically market to American Olim.

ujm said: “People like Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ahron Kotler, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski, Rav Shimon Shkop, Rav Yisrael Salanter, The Ben Ish Chai, ​The Rogatchover Gaon, the Alter of Slabodka, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Meir Shapiro, The Chasam Sofer, The Vilna Gaon, The Baal Shem Tov, The Noda B’Yehuda, ​The Pele Yoetz, The Rema, The Mechaber, The Rosh, The Rif, Rabbeinu Tam and even Rashi didn’t live in Eretz Yisroel.”

Interesting list you put together.

The Mechaber and the Alter of Slabodka (for approximately the last decade of his life) did live in Eretz Yisroel.

The Rosh, the Baal Shem Tov, and the Vilna Gaon attempted to move to Eretz Yisroel or at least temporarily live there, but didn’t make it.

The Ben Ish Chai couldn’t leave his Kehillah to move permanently, but he invested enormous effort to make the dangerous trek through the Syrian Desert by camel caravan to visit Eretz Yisroel.

The Chofetz Chaim, Rav Shimon Shkop (was offered to head Mercaz Harav…), and Rav Aharon Kotler seriously considered and even began to make practical preparations to move to Eretz Yisroel, but ended up not going for various reasons.

A number of the descendants of Rashi and Rabbeinu Tam or their disciples did move to Eretz Yisroel, at great risk (during the Crusades). They include Rash M’Shantz, Rabbeinu Yechiel of Paris, and a group of 300 בעלי התוספות. (They are buried together in a cave in Haifa appropriately named מערת בעלי התוספות, where some also say the Ramban is buried, although that is less clear.)

None of this is meant to agree with “evalimoshav” and the many mistakes in his post, but Eretz Yisroel was and is closer to the hearts of Klal Yisroel and גדולי ישראל than you seem to think.

Dear Yankel Berel.

First of all, I am מוחה on the language you used to describe the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל, and on your cutting and pasting material from my post to include in such a post. I would never have gotten involved in this conversation if I had a הוה אמינא it would be גורם any additional זלזול, which I was trying to avoid. Everyone knows about the “controversy” surrounding the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל, and about the “controversy” surrounding many great figures in the history of Klal Yisroel, who are today accepted by all as צדיקים and גדולי תורה. I assume you learn the works of Ramchal זי״ע and Rav Yonasan Eibschitz זי״ע, and the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע inspires a large portion of Klal Yisroel down to today (whether anyone on the other ביזוי תלמיד חכמים thread likes it or not), so in the long run מחלוקת is no indicator of anything. I don’t care about הסכמות and “pashkevilim” etc. Both sides can be Tzadikim Gemurim, but such a הסכמה etc. is not a Hechsher for someone like me or you to get involved. Learn the Parshas Hashavuah if you have any doubts about that.

This is a מחאה only, not an invitation for further discussion. Please DO NOT respond to this post. I will not be posting further.

א פרייליכען חנוכה

Dear Dr. Yaakov.

To recap the main points from my earlier reply to Yankel Berel:

1. The Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל was a Heiliger Tzaddik who accomplished enormous good in the world, and left behind a rich legacy in writing, in other media, and in the people he inspired, which continues to generate more good and be mekarev countless Yidden to Hashem and His Torah literally worldwide.

2. WRT individual Chabad Chassidim or groups within Chabad, the matzav basically is “buyer beware”. I sincerely believe that real hard core Kefirah/AZ ר״ל is far less prevalent than you seem to suggest, and I have internal Chabad sources (hostile to the “Atzmut Mahutniks”) to back that assessment up. The Meshichist nonsense, with its attendant ideological flip-flops etc. is (for the vast majority of its adherents) just nonsense, not כפירה בעיקרי האמונה.

3. As previously mentioned, I am more concerned with the legacy of the Rebbe זצ״ל than with the beliefs of any particular Chabad Chossid. Very many people learn the Rebbe’s Seforim and are inspired by them, and there are quite a few very learned and Ehrliche Mashpiyim who do have a clear and level-headed השקפת החיים based on the Rebbe’s teachings.

To which I would add:

4. Anyone who writes a whole book pushing a certain position cannot be seen as an unbiased source of information on followers of the opposite position. That’s just common sense. So I don’t really care what Dr. Berger says about Chabad, the same way I don’t care what YYA says about you.

5. If you really want to find out where Rabbi Manis Friedman is holding, you should do exactly as YYA suggested: Present yourself as an “ally” who is interested in Chabad philosophy, and start asking him questions unlikely to arouse suspicion. This way, you strike up a conversation with him until you ask him to explain the stuff in the video etc. Prepare in advance quotes from Chabad sources, including the last Rebbe, that contradict his claims (as you understand them). If he doubles down, present him with the material. See what his reaction is.

Personally, I have enough to do to fix myself before I have time to go around fixing the world, but if you want to give it a try that should at least give you some accurate feedback.

ujm:

Of course he held of demonstrations. Just not together with Arabs. בשום פנים ואופן A very small detail that you left out…

Yaakov Yosef,

A little humility and menschlichkeit will get you a long way. I too don’t quite understand Pshat how calling Chabad “another religion” ח״ו goes together with Davening in a Chabad Shul, but I am open to hearing an answer.

Yankel Berel,

The strange delays imposed by the unpredictable process of moderation on YWN resulted in me seeing your posts with a delay, and my response to you only appearing now.

Dear Yankel Berel.

I read through your last few posts. As I have mentioned previously, I am not a Chabad Chossid. As far as I’m concerned, the bottom line of all of this is:

1. The Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל was a Heiliger Tzaddik who accomplished enormous good in the world, and left behind a rich legacy in writing, in other media, and in the people he inspired, which continues to generate more good and be mekarev countless Yidden to Hashem and His Torah literally worldwide.

2. If you know a little about the history of the Chabad movement through the generations, the intense devotion to the Rebbe of the generation was always there, and goes back to the devotion of the Baal HaTanya זי״ע to the Mezritcher Maggid זי״ע. The main חידוש of the last Rebbe (which actually started to a much more limited extent with the Rayatz זצ״ל, but that is besides the point for now) is the move to turn Chassidus outwards, with the resulting enormous influx of Baalei Teshuva of all kinds. (Also large numbers of non-Chabad FFB who became Chabad later.) This changed the entire landscape of the Chassidus, לטוב ולמוטב. There are those within Chabad itself who identify as “Old Chabad” or “Gez” as the internal slang goes. The percentage of deviation etc. by them is far lower. ודי למבין

3. The התנגדות that you mentioned was in fact (whether you like it or not) directed against the totality of Chabad, with undercurrents of the original Machlokes against Chassidus itself, which is why the other Chassidim didn’t join in. Why should the Litvaks expect to be able to force the (non-Chabad) Chassidim (the majority of voters by all accounts) to toe their line? This was the root of the split in Agudas Yisroel, Chabad was just one of the more high profile triggers. None of this is intended to belittle in any way the Heiliger Tzaddikim and Geonim of the Litvish camp, just to put the Chassidish POV in perspective. Machlokes between Tzaddikim unfortunately has been with us since the time of Yossef HaTzaddik and the Shevatim. It isn’t our business to butt in, as much as there is a Yetzer Hara to do so.

4. WRT individual Chabad Chassidim or groups within Chabad, the matzav basically is “buyer beware”. I sincerely believe that real hard core Kefirah/AZ ר״ל is far less prevalent than you and Dr. Yaakov seem to suggest, and I have internal Chabad sources (hostile to the “Atzmut Mahutniks”) to back that assessment up. The Meshichist nonsense, with its attendant ideological flip-flops etc. is just nonsense, not כפירה בעיקרי האמונה.

5. As previously mentioned, I am more concerned with the legacy of the Rebbe זצ״ל than with the beliefs of any particular Chabad Chossid. Very many people learn the Rebbe’s Seforim and are inspired by them, and there are quite a few very learned and Ehrliche Mashpiyim who do have a clear and level-headed השקפת החיים based on the Rebbe’s teachings.

Dear Dr. Yaakov and Yankel Berel,

OK, now I have a somewhat better picture of what you are driving at, although my personal take on this is a bit different.

First of all, I agree, and said so in my previous post, that there are large numbers of Chabadniks who believe things that are wrong, mainly WRT “Meshichism”. The Nevua stuff is essentially a corollary of the Moshiach part. (IMHO the original Sicha was not meant to refer to Nevua in the Halachic sense, which would require explicitly saying some prediction IN HASHEM’S NAME, something neither the Rayatz זצ״ל or the last Rebbe זצ״ל ever remotely claimed to do. To say someone is ראוי to be a Novi, that his Ruach Hakodesh is close to Nevuah etc. is dangerous but not Kefirah.) However, the hard-core Kefirah and Avoda Zarah Chevra that THEY THEMSELVES mockingly refer to as “Atzmut Mahutniks” and THEY THEMSELVES repeatedly attempted to (physically) kick out of 770, are FAR SMALLER in number.

My assertion that the “Atzmut Mahutniks” number several hundred at most is not a random guess. A relative of mine worked as a Shochet in a meat plant under the Hashgacha of Rav Bistritzky ז״ל from Tzfas, who was one of the biggest fighters against the “Atzmut Mahutniks” (they attempted to physically assault him more than once), and he heard from the Rov that their numbers are no more than 300. I don’t know if there are more or less of them today, but I have never encountered any of them in real life.

אגב, I never saw the video of Rabbi Friedman, and I don’t use YouTube. If you can refer me to a downloadable version I would appreciate it.

But that isn’t what “Chassidus Chabad” is all about. On the one hand you have 540 volumes of Chiddushei Torah spanning over 200 years, including the enormous breadth and depth of the last Rebbe זצ״ל contribution, and on the other hand you have some social media performers and confused Baalei Teshuvah?

לא חיליק ידענא ולא ביליק ידענא, מתניתא ידענא I have learned many of the works of all of the Rebbes of Chabad, including the last Rebbe זצ״ל, and I have never encountered anything remotely resembling “Mitzvos being optional” or anything of the sort. In fact, a very interesting ספר has been published by several important משפיעים from Yerushalayim called יהדות ללא פשרות, which collects hundreds of letters and Sichos of the Rebbe זצ״ל that spell out in no uncertain terms the centrality of Halacha and the fact that no deviations are allowed, even for purposes of outreach. If you are seriously interested in this subject, it would be worth your while to get a copy of that Sefer.

Continued.

So, Reb SomeJew, what is the היתר to act like a “Zionist” and be מפקיר Jewish lives, even theoretically, supposedly in the name of “anti-Zionism”? This is why the Divrei Yoel זצ״ל DID NOT hold of the disgusting antics of the people in the news every other day who call themselves Neturei Karta (who אגב probably aren’t even coordinated with the Yerushalmi group of the same name, although I can’t prove that conclusively.)

Dear “DaMoshe”,

You have asserted more than once on this thread that “Chassidus as taught by the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע no longer exists”, or was changed due to the influence of those who opposed him. Could you please provide some concrete examples, backed up by מראי מקומות that can be fact-checked (עדות שאתה יכול להזימה), of ideas beliefs or practices innovated by the Baal Shem Tov, which were adopted by his Talmidim, but stopped later due to the influence of the Misnagdim? Please don’t forget to provide written sources from the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע himself or his first-generation Talmidim that the Baal Shem Tov in fact held of these ideas or practices, not claims made by the Misnagdim.

Thank you.

SomeJewIKnow, you called Mercaz Harav a “church”, then you said “Of course I’ve been to Mirkaz Harav”. What were you doing there and what was your hetter to enter a church?

“I know a number of people that continue to learn Torah in that church of heresy every day.”

That’s an interesting sentence, isn’t it?

Dear Dr. Yaakov (qwerty613) and Yankel Berel.

My personal interaction with Chabad is primarily through learning the Seforim of the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל (Mainly the Maamorim, as well as the collected Sichos on the Moadim or by subject שערי אמונה etc.), as well as of all the generations of Chassidus Chabad. I am not a “Chabadnik” myself, but I learn the Seforim like any Sefer Chassidus, and there is a wealth of profound ideas and inspiration there. I have also heard shiurim from Rav Yoel Cahan ז״ל, who was in charge of writing most of the Maamorim, as well as יבדל״ח Rav Yitchok Meir Morgenstern שליט״א, who isn’t Chabad but draws extensively on Chabad sources. I have never seen or heard anything in any of these sources that suggests any deviation from Orthodox Jewish belief or practice.

Obviously, I am aware of the “Meshichist” movement. (Which affects much or most of Chabad, but not all of them, and comes in different gradations.) Naming a specific individual as Moshiach is factually wrong and dangerous, but not inherently כפירה. The “Dvar Malchus” was edited by hard-core Meshichists, not by the normal editing staff of the “Likutey Sichos” and twisted in many places to support their claims. Most of the material was published after the Rebbe זצ״ל was no longer able to edit Sichos, something they took full advantage of. This is despite their claim to the contrary, based on the first few pamphlets they published that were in fact edited. For this reason, many Chabadniks do not consider these “Sichos” to be “canonical” or even reliable. I did take the trouble to go find a hard copy of Dvar Malchus (which I don’t have in my house) and check out the Sicha mentioned by Yankel Berel, (hence the delay in response), and it is a classic example of such manipulation. It is deliberately parsed in such a way as to blur the distinction (specifically made in the beginning of the part about Nevua) the Rebbe himself makes between “Ruach Hakodesh” in the sense normative Judaism does believe still exists, (and belief in which some hold to be included in the general belief in Nevua, which is the takeaway from the first quote of the Rambam as interpreted by the Rebbe, which can be debated but definitely isn’t any sort of Kefirah) and bona fide Nevua which the Rambam in Iggeres Teiman (quoted inside) explicitly DOES say STOPPED COMPLETELY and will return only at or close to the advent of the final Geula.

As far as item #1. Anecdotally, I have visited “Kehot” in Crown Heights from time to time to buy Seforim, and sometimes shmuzed with the people who work there. On one such occasion, the guy at the counter mentioned with disgust the “Atzmut Mahutniks”, (the group I assume you are referring to) who he claimed number no more than several hundred people, and are based primarily in Tzfat, but as I have mentioned, I never met any such person face to face in real life. לצורך העניין and to save time, forgive me for assuming in advance that you are concerned about popular misconceptions of either the “Atzmus Mahus” sicha, or about “Hiskashrus”. (The latter isn’t even a Chabad issue per se, but more on that later.) In order to discuss this (very serious) issue, I need to understand more about where you are coming from. Are you familiar with the Tanya and the later Seforim of Chabad? With Sifrei Chassidus in general? Have you learned “Litvish” sources on inyanei Kabbalah such as Nefesh Hachaim, the works of Rav Yitzchok Aizik Chaver זצ״ל, the works of Ramchal זצ״ל? Do you accept the legitimacy of Chassidus altogether? What about the Chabad Rebbes of previous generations? [The answers to those questions affects the amount of background necessary to provide as opposed to simply marei mekomos, and the “Litvish” mekubalim use different terminology to refer to the same concepts Chassidim also believe in, which can create confusion if you are familiar with one system but not the other.]

Item # 4. I have yet to see anything from the Rebbe himself remotely close to suggesting any leniency or “optionality” in any area of Halacha. Everyone knows that R’ Shlomo Carlebach parted ways with Chabad because the Rebbe refused to permit any relaxing of Halachic restrictions, even for Kiruv, even thing many MO fudge לכתחילה. As far as Rabbi Friedman is concerned, personally, I am not a fan of “YouTube Rabbis” in general, not just Chabad but any of them. The medium doesn’t exactly lend itself to serious discussion of anything, and it becomes more theater than Shiur. I don’t feel any need to be מתרץ anyone in Chabad other than the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל himself.

Looking forward to hearing from you.