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I think it’s fascinating how people are quicker to criticize Jake Turx than President Trump. If the same exact thing happened with President Obama instead of President Trump, I suspect the reaction would be slightly different…
R Akiva thought Bar Kochva was Mashiach and not one of the other Tanaim. It doesn’t sound like the Mashiach will be one of the Gedolei Hador.
I always understood that the Charedi movement began with the Chassam Sofer’s famous quote “??? ???? ?? ?????” which until that point was not used for anything other than wheat. Seeing the societal changes and the danger it imposed on traditional Judaism, the Chassam Sofer built stronger gates separating the Jewish community from the Goyish world by prohibiting “???”. As I understand it, this was a new innovation, something not necessarily practiced by Chazal and the Rishonim (which is why it is the beginning of a “new” movement), but was instituted to protect Jews from falling off the derech. In other words, it was a small change in the Mesorah in the hope to stop Jews from completely abandoning the Mesorah.
“Men’s job is to go out in the world whereas women’s job is in the home.”
Unless the man is in kollel. then the woman has to go out in the world and run the home.
I haven’t read everything in this thread and it seems to have veered off topic. I want to ask the original question again worded slightly differently and please let me know if this was answered already.
As an example, I will use Chalav Yisroel. Some poskim say that you can drink non-Chalav Yisroel milk because of government health supervision while others say you can’t rely on that supervision. Those who paskin that you can only drink Chalav Yisroel think the other side is wrong, maybe even eating/drinking not kosher, but not apikorsus. It’s a machlokes in halacha.
Some poskim hold that the 3 shevuos are authoritative, some do not, some hold they were never actually violated with the founding of the State of Israel. Each side thinks the other side is wrong in this area of halacha… but why does it make the followers of that side apikorsim? Why is this different than any other of halacha?
Obviously, I’m not talking about the original secular Zionists who believed that having a State in Israel was a replacement for Torah and Halacha. I’m talking about religious Jews who either hold that one is allowed to have a State in Israel before Moshiach or even that it is a positive thing to have a State in Israel before Mashiach. Why is that apikorsus for those who hold of a strict interpretation and authoritative nature of the 3 Shevuos? Why is this not just a machlokes in halacha like all of the others?
In the words of R’ Jeremy Stern, the head of ORA on the RCA “imposing” a controversial halachik tool on all of its members (slightly edited for context):
This concern is precisely why we formulated the resolution not to require THE halachic prenup for the prevention of Get-refusal, but A halachic prenup for the prevention of Get-refusal. There is literally something for everyone. Really. There is NO posek who argues that a “Rav Moshe Prenup,” which is simply a binding arbitration agreement, creates a Get meuseh. Not one. So, we are not imposing a contentious halachic stance on anyone, since there is no contention with a Rav Moshe Prenup. Besides for that, if you’re a talmid of Rav Bleich (or Rav Bleich himself!), you can use Rav Bleich’s prenup! And if you don’t like that one either, you could use Rabbi David Mescheloff’s Marital Agreement to Mediate (google it to learn more), which he writes in several places has universal halachic acceptance, including from Rav Elyashiv.
I go back and forth and which one is the lesser of two evils… right now I’m thinking Hillary is the lesser of 2 evils (in terms of being president). I mean,I think Hillary is a worse person (if I can actually judge a person by what I read about them in the newspapers like about the crimes she allegedly committed and tried to cover up)… but that doesn’t mean she’ll make a worse president. I would like to think I’m a better person than either Trump or Hillary but I would make an awful president.
Hillary has her party behind her. She has some of the Republicans behind her. She has more experience in politics in general and in the White House. She has better diplomacy skills. She has stronger connections to others in the political world. She has a much more presidential personality (at least from what we see in public). Trump will isolate congress and the rest of the world with his big mouth. His personality is horrible for someone who is president. I also think Hillary will enjoy more bipartisan support than President Obama did because many Republicans refuse to support Trump, so they wouldn’t hold that against her necessarily.
The only thing I will say positively about Trump is that his and his party’s platform towards Israel is better than Hillary and the Democrats, which would be the only reason I would consider voting for him (especially because I live in Israel). But I don’t think he would make a better president.
Ben LEvi- your comment is an affront to our Mesorah. Sure there are different minhagim between Ashkenazim and Sephardim, and sometimes psak din is a bit different…. but it’s the same Torah Shebichsav and the same Torah Sheba’al Peh. Other than maybe having a separate minyan and a separate halacha seder which is such a small portion of the day, there is no reason they can’t learn the same Torah together in the same schools.
Health, Joseph- would it be so theologically challenging for you to accept that God created gay people and that reparative therapy doesn’t work for everyone? Well, if it’s hard for you to accept that imagine how much harder it is for a gay person to accept that. Imagine how theologically challenging it is for a person to realize that through no fault of their own, they are attracted to their gender. Imagine how hard it is for a person, that no matter how much psychotherapy they try, no matter how hard they cry on Yom Kippur for freedom from this challenge, they still are attracted to the same gender?
Imagine how much harder it is for them to be labeled freaks and perverts in our community? How jewish news sites seem to label them as to’eivah? How they feel like they need to choose between frumkeit and achieving emotional/psychological/physical fulfillment because should they dare decide that they can’t handle being alone they will be ostracized from the community… that in this regard frumkeit is all or nothing? Is it any wonder why they fall of the derech, why they choose companionship and love over halacha? Why they feel they have no place in the Orthodox community and must reject it entirely?
Is it any wonder why they would want to have a parade in our holy city… to be able to tell us that they exist and that they no longer want to be judged and marginalized by us? They want to send a message to gay teenagers and young adults who are in hiding that they can still be happy… that there’s no place for them in Orthodoxy? That depression and suicide is not the only option (and unfortunately, it is a serious problem for those who feel they have no place in our communities)?
The parade is a terrible thing… it is publicizing, promoting, and celebrating a lifestyle that violates the Torah. It’s even worse because it is being done in our holy city. But before we condemn we must understand why they are doing what they are doing We have to understand what challenges they face in our own backyard. We have to ask ourselves if any of their motivations and concerns are indeed legitimate. And we have to ask ourselves, are doing everything we can on our part to solve those legitimate problems, or are we making a terrible situation worse?
It’s quite possible that there is absolutely nothing we can do within the guidelines of halacha to make them feel accepted, respected, and loved… or at the very least not judged. But we must try. We have a responsibility on our end to do what we can to ensure that a parade like this in our holy city is unnecessary.
A gay person is like a mamzer, destined to never get married and be alone for the rest of their lives (at least from a romantic perspective) if they want to follow halacha. I’m getting the vibe that people here would feel more sympathy for someone who is a mamzer than for someone who is gay. Being gay is more than just a desire, but in the same way our spouses complete us in emotional and psychological ways, a gay person wants the same sort of emotional and psychological companionship. Obviously, that’s not a heter for anything, but understanding their struggles will allow us to accept them into our communities with greater ease, and will allow us to be a little less judgmental when faced with someone who can’t seem to handle the challenge as most of us haven’t the slightest clue what it means that halacha expects us to be alone for the rest of our lives.
Miami- or you can conclude that is plenty safe (even if not exactly as safe as Boro Park) and that the benefits of living in EY outweigh the negatives. This doesn’t have to do anything with the medina. Even if you don’t have a duty to live there, it may still be mitzvah kiyumis, and there are numerous Chazals of the benefits of the kedushah of EY.
If we want to remove the medina aspect of this topic, the question is, do we have a right to put our lives in danger to move to Eretz Yisroel and more specifically to Yehuda and Shomron? The problem with this question is that it is already assuming our lives are in danger in EY and the “proof” is that it is more dangerous than America.
Whether that’s true or not seems irrelevant to the halachic topic at hand. We don’t define sakana by comparing it other similar actions. There is an objective definition to sakana, and if living in EY meets that definition, then we have a serious question. If not, then we don’t, regardless of how much safer America may be.
What mitzvah can be done by someone else? If you’re talking about the army, each soldier makes the army as a whole stronger. I think it’s a stretch to say it can be done by someone else.
DY- they wanted to save the lives of those who were halachically Jewish.
I’ve been thinking about this, and I’m trying to formulate my feelings… maybe someone can help me. I find it harder to appreciate those who I am jealous of. I am jealous of Lomdei Torah. I wish I could be in kollel. I wish I could live that life. For some reason, and I can’t really explain why, it’s harder for me to say “thank you” and “you are so lucky, I wish I was you” at the same time. Why are these somewhat mutually exclusive in my mind? It’s the same way with a really wealthy person giving a lot of money. I appreciate what he’s doing, but that is somehow tempered by the wish to have the financial ability to make that same kind of donation myself.
A soldier, on the other hand, is not someone I am jealous of. I do not want the basic training or the sleepless nights. I do not want the physical, psycholgical or emotional toll. I do not want the fear that my life is on the line. I do not want to kill or watch my fellow soldiers be killed. There is nothing about the soldier’s life that I want in mine. The soldiers are doing the job that is so selfless in my mind… they are doing it completely in my place. They are doing the job that I choose not to do, and that I am afraid of doing.
My appreciation is so much stronger for those who play the roles that I don’t want to play, than for those who play the roles I wish I could play. Does that make sense?
I’m not saying we’re better off than if we didn’t have a medina. I have no idea. I’m saying we’re better than before we had the medina. Before we had the medina, there were very few Jews in EY. Before the Medina, there was much less Torah in EY. Before the Medina, there was less anti-Semitism in EY itself, but I think overall things are a lot better than they were beforehand (the Holocaust, pograms). The Medina (and USA for that matter) has helped Torah Jewry grow immensely than what was beforehand. The difference between the Medina and USA is that the Medina is doing it in Eretz HaKedoshah.
DY- Probably the soldiers. The Learners do more to keep the world going but the soldiers risk and sacrifice far more. I appreciate more a poor man who give as much as he can, then a rich man who give a lot more but only a small percentage of his wealth. The Lomdei Torah (or most of them at least) sacrifice the ability to live a life of gashmiyus in exchange for a life of ruchniyus. The soldiers stand on the front lines from where many don’t return.
mw13- I’m talking about Torah in Eretz Yisroel. That has not always existed. That has grown exponentially since Hakamas HaMedina. Arguably because of Hakamas HaMedina.
DY- I’m celebrating that we can now return to EY en masse. We can serve HKBH in EY en masse. We are protected from our enemies in EY. Is this what the founders had in mind? Probably not. But the day that this Medina started, is a positive day, even if the founders had different intentions. It is certainly not despite the events of the Hakams HaMedina because without Hakamas Hamedina none of this would likely have happened.
DY- Well, according to your analogy, I also saw him swindled by Shimon. I saw Shimon putting him in that situation bemeizid.
Medinas Yisroel did not cause the hatred. Eisav Sonei es Ya’akov. Bechol dor vador omdim aleinu lechaloseinu. In every generation until 1948, they wanted to kill us… now suddenly the medina is the cause of the hatred? If not for the medina, anti-Semitism would have ended after WWII? Do you honestly believe that?
And even if you’re right, that the medina caused all the hatred, it’s still unlike your analogy. Shimon ripped off Reuven on purpose to steal his money and take advantage of him. Shimon was not looking out for Reuven’s best interests.
The Medina, on the other had, was looking to protect Klal Yisroel from the dangers of anti-Semitism. They were trying to be a safe haven for the Jewish People. According to you, they were wrong, and their efforts produced the opposite results and now they are trying to correct their mistake by protecting the Jews from the enemies they inadvertently created. I don’t think that’s what happened, but even if it was, it is still unlike you analogy.
I don’t know about giving the benefit of the doubt, I’m just saying I don’t know if the Medina is the cause of all of the Anti-Semitism today… or more accurately, I am not convinced that the Jewish People would be better off nowadays if the medina was never founded. I don’t know enough, and I don’t think anyone knows enough to accurately blame the medina for all of the evil that has befallen Klal Yisroel these past 68 years.
And yes, I acknowledge that the State was started with the intention to uproot Torach ch”v. And I can proudly and happily say, THEY FAILED! HODU LASHEM KI TOV KI LA’OLAM CHASDO!
The Medina that they helped establish has fostered so much of the Torah that they hate! Rabos Machshavos BeLeiv Ish Va’Atzas Hashem Hi Sakum!
What I do know, is that the State exists. The State spends more money supporting Torah than any other institution in the world. The State offers automatic citizenship for any Jew who wants to live in Eretz Yisroel. The State provides soldiers to protect the Jewish People (among them are those who learn Torah), from enemies who want to kill us.
You can continue to speculate on what the Medina should be doing, on how Torah would be so much stronger if it were not for the Medina, on how the Jews would be so much safer if not for the Medina. You can rationalize however you want to take away your responsibility to recognize all of the positives the Medina has done. I don’t deal with these what ifs. I deal with what I see. Hodu LaShem Ki Tov, Ki La’Olam Chasdo. The Medina has been such a positive force for Torah Jewry, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.
DY- There has been anti-Semitism throughout history even before hakamas hamedina. If there was no State of Israel in the post-Holocaust era, I have no idea how different the world would look today. To say that the Medina created the current situation is a statement that could only be made by a Navi. I don’t know who created the situation… in fact, Eisav Sonei Es Yaakov tells me that the situation would exists with or without a medina. What I do know is that the medina is protecting us and preserving us (or more accurately, Hashem is using the medina to protect us and preserve is) in Eretz Yisroel.
Akuperma- there has been Torah for centuries, but not in Eretz Yisroel. We have not had this much Torah in Eretz Yisroel since the fall of Beitar about a thousand years ago. The Zionists and the State with the right of return and the soldiers who protects us from the surrounding Non Jews have been Hashems tools in returning and sustaining Torah in Eretz Yisroel
DY- are you implying it is the soldiers’ fault that we need protection in the first place and therefore they don’t deserve a “groiser yasher koach” for risking their lives when giving us that very same protection?
Could we sit and study Torah without donations? The answer of course is yes. If HKB”H sees fit to allow us to learn Torah and not need money, he doesn’t need the help of the wealthy.
But that doesn’t change the fact that Hashem is using the wealthy as tools to support Torah and we owe His tools hakaras hatov for donating their hard earned money to kollelim and yeshivos instead of spending it on themselves. Even though we know that they only make money because of those learning Torah, we still owe them hakaras hatov.
We could also sit and learn without the protection of soldiers if HKBH sees fit. But right now, HKBH is using the soldiers as his tools to protect Toras Eretz Yisroel, and we owe His tools hakaras hatov for putting their lives on the line to protect the Kollelim and Yeshivos (in addition to all of the other people in the land). Even though we know that they are only successful because of those learning Torah, we still owe them hakaras hatov.
There will be Frey Jews during the times of Mashiach? I imagine they would all become baalei teshivah. Why would baalei teshuvah be more inclined to be a Zevulon than an FFB?
I think what happens is that the chameitz is sold to the Goy, he puts down a small down payment, and the contract says he has x amount of days to pay back the rest. However, the contract also has a clause allowing the Goy to sell back the chameitz by a certain date instead of making the payment. That is the Goy’s choice and the Jew cannot force him to keep the Chameitz as per the contract.
I don’t know the halachos of salary for Torah but this exchange seems very strange… Health makes a statement, Sam2 questions it and asks for an exact source, and Health offers to provide it for payment?
Health- I guess I deserved that. I apologize for my comment.
Honestly, I have no idea if we will “have the world” when Mashiach comes. The only thing I know, is that when Mashiach comes, we will have our government/kingdom in Eretz Yisroel, we will have a Beis HaMikdash, and there will be universal knowledge and recognition of God. Does that mean that will be the end of all other countries and there will be a new world order with the King of the Jews as the King of the World? I have no idea.
Sam- I think Health accidentally replaced his Tanach with the Protocols.
Turkey would not have a right of return givng all Jews automatic citizenship when returning to Eretz Yisroel. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that yishuv Eretz Yisroel would be happening at the same quantity and quality under any other regime.
Avi K- Zionism is more than political movement and has been since 1948. The very basis of the government and legal system are based on Zionism which has its own political parties. Yes, there is religious representation as well, but there are limits to their power. I don’t think they would be able to change the nature of the government of Israel into a theocracy based on the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch even if they were in power.
My personal opinion, is that the State of Israel as it stands is a secular state (with some significant Jewish influences). As it is a secular state, I am hesitant to say that the State of Israel is synonymous with Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel. (I guess a question can be made how to compare the current secular State of Israel with the idol worshiping Malchei Yisroel of Tanach- was that not considered Jewish Sovereignty either?)
But, the secular State of Israel offers more opportunities for Yishuv Eretz Yisroel (Right of Return), more governmental funds towards Torah and maintaining holy areas, and more manpower to defending Eretz Yisroel and Jewish People in Eretz Yisroel and around the world. Not to mention the fact that Giyur and Marriage run through the State Rabbinate limits the existence of intermarriage even among completely irreligious Jews. No other secular government would offer that to Klal Yisorel and that’s something we all need to appreciate.
First of all, I didn’t mean that I didn’t think there was a difference between Arab sovereignty and Zionist sovereignty. I was merely speaking in extremes to express how Anti-Zionists delegitimize the “Jewishness” and halachik significance of the Zionsit entity.
My response to Health- As we see from Tanach and Halacha, Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is worth fighting for even if it puts lives at risk. Zionist sovereignty allows for the maximum amount of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and is therefore worth fighting to defend. Am Yisro’el Be’Eretz Yisro’el.
ROB- To play devil’s advocate on behalf of Joseph. I think he meant Zionist sovereignty is not worth one Jewish life. This makes sense for those who don’t consider Zionism a Jewish movement and don’t consider Zionism to have any halachik value. Zionist sovereignty is no different than Arab sovereignty for them, so why should Jewish lives be put at risk for one secular government over another?
According to some- when we are told to go. According to others- when we can go.
Mr. Mustard- I assume they should all be done.
Another seder question:
What’s the proper procedure for a ba’al seder who needs to give out a lot of matzos for the mitzvas matzah at the seder? When he makes the berachah, should he hold all the matzos that he plans on to giving to everyone at the seder? Or should he only hold the two/three in front of him and have in mind to include all the matzah on the table? If it’s the second way, does he need to give everyone a small piece of the matzah that he was holding during the berachah or can they just take from the matzah that’s on the table?
The Government of Israel is secular. One can argue it’s not even Jewish (an organization run by Jews but not according to halachah is probably not considered a Jewish organization- like a Reform Temple). But it’s still better than any other secular non-Jewish government would be. While many of the members don’t follow halachah, and the laws are not based on the Shulchan Aruch, many meta-communal laws are based on halachah- like Geirus and Marriage- which makes things a lot less complicated for frum Jews. And while it is not illegal to violate Shabbos, to my knowledge, the government itself doesn’t run on Shabbos, which probably limits a lot of the chilul Shabbos.
Not to mention that no other secular/non Jewish government over Eretz Yisroel would give as much money to Yeshivos as the current government of Israel does, and no other secular/non Jewish government would give all Jews a blanket right of return which facilitates massive fulfillment of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel.
Are there problems with the government? Of course. Is the secular government of Israel considered Jewish sovergnty over Eretz Yisroel? I have no idea. Does the government itself have any halachik or hashkafik significance? Who knows. But having this government over the Land of Israel, is better than any other Non Jewish government over the Land of Israel. And I think some of us need to take a step back sometimes and appreciate how great we have it.
Hodu LaShem Ki Tov, Ki LeOlam Chasdo.
If you learn the sugya in the beginning of Mishnayos Keilim, not every area of Har HaBayis has the same level of kedushah and not every area is a chiyuv kareis. Some areas only require tevilah bemikvah and not haza’ah of the eifer parah adumah. Some Rabbonim have determined based on the sugya which areas on Har HaBayis one is allowed to go on after going to the mikvah.
I don’t think the halachic nature of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel vs. Pikuach Nefesh was discussed on the other thread.
Joseph- I do not know the sugya that well and I certainly don’t have sources for you. But, I do not know of too many poskim that rule a) it is assur to live in Eretz Yisroel today because it’s more dangerous than the USA, b) it is assur for a soldier to serve in Tzahal because he puts his life at risk to defend the borders of Medinas Yisroel and its inhabitants (though there may be other reasons why serving in Tzahal is problematic), or c) that the War of Independence and the Six Day War were fought be’issur because Jewish lives were at risk.
Maybe there are a few opinions that say those things and I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re able to quote them, but that doesn’t seem to be the opinion of the Dati LeUmi Gedolim and Poskim, and I don’t think it is the opinion of many Charedi Gedolim and Poskim.
Joseph- I don’t know how to value even one Jewish life vs. the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel, but I do know it’s more complicated than you make it seem. Besides for historically, we have fought for yishuv EY, from the time of Yehoshua, to the time of Malchei Yehudah, to the time of the Chashmonaim (which was without the directive of a navi) which put Jewish lives at risk… the meforshim say how the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel is both living and conquering Eretz Yisroel through war. By definition, yishuv Eretz Yisroel/milchemes mitzvah is docheh pikuach nefesh, otherwise there would be no such concept as yishuv Eretz Yisroel/milchemes mitzvah unless you were sure no one would die which is a ridiculous hava amina to even consider.
So, I think it is a very erroneous conclusion to say that yishuv Eretz Yisroel is always pushed aside for pikuach nefesh. It may be true nowadays, depending on the status of Eretz Yisroel, the mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, the concept of milchemes mitzvah bizman hazeh… but depending on how you understand those concepts, it is perfectly feasible for people to be put at risk for Yishuv Eretz Yisroel within the confines of Halachah.
Joseph- you ask a very good question, a question that you’ve asked before, which I have thought about a lot. Is there a difference between the parts of EY under Israeli control and the parts of EY under Arab control? And I think the answer is yes, there is a difference.
In Parshas Shelach there were two sins, the cheit hameraglim, and the cheit hama’apilim (those who wanted to go to EY when they weren’t allowed to). Without a Navi, how can we tell the difference? How do we know when we should fight for EY and when we shouldn’t? As a non-Navi, the difference I see from the Torah is the result. As we see from the ma’apilim, when we try to fight for EY when we aren’t allowed to, then we lose and we lose big time. We get massacred.
The parts of EY that the Israelis control, we can return to without fear of being massacred. Are there terrorist attacks? Of course. And each Jewish life killed from an attack is a tragedy. But only a small small minority of the Jewish People are actually being killed. I would not think that that qualifies as the type of massacre that the ma’apalim faced. This is the area that Hashem has returned to us as He allowed us victory in 1948 and 1967. Had God not returned EY to us, we would have faced the same fate as the ma’apalim… a complete massacre.
The other areas are much more dangerous al pi teva. Without a Navi to tell us otherwise, we have to assume that we would be massacred if we try to take parts of Jordan or Lebanon. Therefore, in my opinion, it is not a sin to speak of the dangers of returning to the parts of EY under Arab control. It wasn’t returned to us.(Maybe that’s how we should have felt in 1948 facing numerous Arab armies, but bH we didn’t and we won, proving at least in hind sight that we didn’t violate the cheit of the ma’apalim by fighting for EY).
MO and Yeshivish are not diametrically opposed. In theory, they are very much alike. The main difference is that an ideal theoretical MO Yid is more willing to engage in secular society for the positives it can offer while the Yeshivish/Charedi tries to stay away from secular society as much as possible, not wanting to benefit from the positives in an effort to keep away from the negatives (this can also be used to explain why MO is more receptive to Zionism while the Yeshivish/Charedi are not… MO theory is not afraid of the secular influence of Zionism while Yeshivish/Charedi is). Unfortunately, (and I say this as a person who appreciates the theory of Modern Orthodoxy), I think the fears of the Charedi/Yeshivish velt were warranted in many cases, as you will find more MO’s negatively affected by secular society, maybe being lax in areas of halachah and Talmud Torah because of their involvement in secular society. But that’s not what Modern Orthodoxy wanted to be, that’s just an unfortunate result of it’s failed application to the masses.
DY- Fair enough.
You quoted the din of venishmartem when it comes to EY. Usually venishmartem forbids us from doing something dangerous. I understood you to mean, that since venishmartem applies to the dangerous situation in EY, it is assur to go. If you don’t think it is assur to live in EY, don’t quote the possuk of venishmartem which may give someone the wrong impression.
Health- Please stop putting religious in quotation marks. It is very insulting to many Religious Zionists and the halachos of loahon hara apply to them also.
DY- Of course we should yearn for Moshiach. I never said we shouldn’t. I meant a person saying “I feel bad I can’t move to EY, I can’t wait for Moshiach to come so I can go” is not accurate because one does not need to wait for Mashiach to go to EY. In other words, yearning for Mashiach and all the Mitzvos that come with it is not the same as yearning to live in EY.
Health- At first I thought you meant the 1300s and I wrote my response that way. When I realized I misunderstood I edited it quickly and added the last paragraph. But you miss my point, even if it is more dangerous nowadays than it was 30-40 years ago, does not mean R’ Moshe would now say that is assur to go because of venishmartem. You can’t assume and make up a shitah like that that R’ Moshe never said.