simcha613

I don’t know what this whole obsession is with Zionism vs. anti-Zionism. It doesn’t seem to me that there’s a nafka mina. The medinah exists and I think that’s a reality that we have to accept. Arguments about whether it’s a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisro’el or not have nothing to do with Zionism. Basically, what I’m saying is, all who outwardly bash the medinah, whether your arguments are emes or not, what’s the point? What’s the to’eles? There’s no nafka mina whether you like the medinah or not. It’s here. Deal with it. Why fight for the sake of fighting? (I know this is probably my fault for starting the thread, I should have used my seichel and realized that this would become of forum for fighting… which is not necesarily a bad thing, fighting for the emes, but too many people are affected by this issue on a very personal level and I think there is more loss than gain coming from this machlokes)

good job on most of the answers! A hint to question one is that it’s in a possuk we say every day in davening

I would like to try and take this topic back to the original questions, in what public situations (shi’urim, concerts, buses, smachos, etc..) is mixed seating allowed and not allowed and what is the mekor if it’s not allowed?

But, on the topic of weddings, I have been to many mixed weddings. At most of the mixed weddings I’ve been to, the single boys and girls sat on opposite sides of the dance floor (boys on the choson side and girls on the kalah side). The only mixed seatings are for married couples who want to eat with their spouses, and the cousins sit together because they don’t really know the friends. Is that really much worse than a Shabbos table, or should a Shabbos table not be mixed too?

And with regard to dancing, I’ll be honest, I’ve never seen women dancing at a wedding, even when I was on the women’s side. All I have seen is a bunch of women walking around slowly the outside circle. That’s about as exciting as the women hanging around at the after shul kiddush on Shabbos morning. I understand men should not be staring at women, but assuming that the singles are not mixing with each other because they are on separate sides, are women walking around slowly the outer circle a reason to separate men from their wives? If that’s the case, maybe men shouldn’t be allowed in most shopping areas on Erev Shabbos because you see just as many women walking just as fast.

I really really don’t want to get into another Emmanuel discussion, I’m just interested in a general hashkafic discussion about Medinas Yisro’el. However, to respond to the Emmanuel point (though I’m probably getting it wrong) we’re talking about public schools and not private schools. There are only a certain amount of resources in each public school and I don’t think the USA either would allow and entire district to move all or most of its students into an already existing public school, it would be too much. And if a parent refuses to send their child to school in the USA, I imagine that’s an arrestable offense also.

Many parents in the U.S. home school. So, in fact, they do not send their children to school. -77

Out of curiosity, is the claim of the Chareidim that the Medinah is not allowed to interfere with the chinuch of their children, specifically for the Chareidim, or applicable to everyone? In other words, the Medinah has the responsibility to support many types of schools, like Chareidi, Religious Zionist, secular, Arab, etc… Do those denominations have the right to accept Medinah funding for their schools (because they do pay taxes) and demand that the Medinah not interfere whatsoever? Or since they are being supported by the Medinah, then they must function according to the standards of the Medinah (except for the Chareidim who are allowed to take the money, since they also pay taxes, but who demand that the Medinah should not interfere at all in their Chinuch)?

It’s very easy to blame the government for everything they do wrong, and anything that they do right (like support Torah), to brush it away with claims of “they have to do it, they shouldn’t recieve credit.” We learn from Moshe Rabeinu that we show hakaras hatov even when it was a result of natural course (a river is supposed to cause things to float and yet Mosheh Rabeinu showed it hakaras hatov… kal vachomer for peope with bechira chofshis). So the fact that the chareidim are “entitled” to funding for the government is not a reason not to show due hakaras hatov. I’m not saying ignore what they do wrong and what they do that’s anti-Torah, but charedim have a serious lack of hakaras hatov when they are learning because of government stipends.

Taxes are because the government needs funding, but citizens don’t have a say to where it goes. In America, taxes still go to the public school system and yeshivos are privately funded. American citizens can’t tell America what to do with their tax money, and demand that they support the yeshiva system also. The same thing with Eretz Yisro’el. A government needs funding to run, and they use that to support a public school system which they control. The fact that they use that money to support Yeshivos and Beis Ya’akov is a tremendous chesed that no other country does with the frum’s taxes. But just because chareidim are required to pay taxes does not give them the right to demand where it goes. If the charedim want a school that is completely free from medinah interference then the charedim should pay for their own private schools… and they still have to pay taxes!

I was under the impression that there is only one school in Emmanuel. Therefore, if it’s a publicly funded school, and there are girls who are left without a school because they don’t live up to those standards, isn’t it the medinah’s responsibility to make sure that its public schools serve the entire community? Therefore, since the Emmanuel Beis Yaakov is a public school, isn’t it the medinah’s responsibility to make sure that it serves those in the community who need it?