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I don’t mean to criticize those who learn. I am just talking about people who cannot fulfill the responsibilities of their jobs. I don’t know who violates geneivah on a general level more, the workers or the learners (I would hope the workers as you said). However, I believe those who violate geneievah while learning in kollel are people who want to learn but physically and mentally cannot. Those are the people I’m referring to who shouldn’t be in kollel. Those who violate geneivah while working though, I assume can do their job but it’s their apathy that causes them to vioate geneivah. I am not talking about those people because they SHOULD be working, they just need a lesson in halachah and derech eretz. If there are people who are working and physically and mentally can’t fulfill their responsibilities, then they should not be working either (at least in the job that their in) and should look for other options.
Derech- I was always under the impression that learning in kollel is a Yisachar-Zevulon arrangement. A person pays for learning and he receives a portion (half or a quarter… I don’t really know) of that sechar limud, even though he (the one paying) hasn’t learned a word. Therefore, any time wasted is less sechar for the supporter and a misuse of his money.
so we agree, a person cannot work or learn in an environment where he can not handle the responsibilities and will succumb to geneivah.
In addition, all things being equal, learning is a much better “career” than working. Working takes you through this world, learning to the next. But that only works if learning can take you (and your family) through this world. A husband is obligated to support his wife and family on their level. Unfortunately (or fortunately) learning in kollel pays extremely little. It doesn’t matter how much you love learning, or how much time you’re willing to spend on it, or the fact that learning is objectively the most productive career. If your wife and kids are physically and psychologically suffering (chas veshalom), you cannot do it. You must find yourself a job that pays more (obviously one that you can do and will not violate geneivah while doing it)
“Working is only shayach for people who can work every minute of all working hours that they are supposed to (any minute during working hours not working is geneivah.)”
That is true… a person is not allowed to work in a place where it is inevitable he will violate geneivah. However, there is much more flexibility when it comes to careers. Some have longer hours, some have shorter hours. Some don’t have hours requirements but you have to make a certain amount sales or money, or have to produce a certain amount of goods. Sometimes a person is self employed, or the management monitors how he uses his time and any time he wastes is his lost money and is not geneivah. I’m sure there are many other situations as well. A person must choose a job or career in which it’s realistic that he will not violate geneivah.
Kollel is usually a lot more straightforward. It’s 2 or 3 sedarim of a few hours each, and a person must learn that entire time… no breaks, that’s what bein hasedarim is for (obviously once in a while for something extraordinary is not (in my opinion) geneivah, though it should be discussed with the people giving him the paycheck). Additionally, sechar is based on effort so no matter how much or how little one learns, if one is being supported, he must learn the entire time on a regular basis. If a person cannot do that, just like any other job, if one cannot fulfill his duties, should not choose that profession.
Just to clarify, my comment about not learning being geneivah is only when one is being supported by a kollel. If one is being supported independently, then obviously every minute wasted is bitul Torah, but it’s just as much bitul Torah as a person who works and wouldn’t qualify as geneivah.
Learning is better than working. If one can learn all day, then college is bitul Torah. However, learning is only shayach for people who can do the following: 1) learn every minute of every seder that they are supposed to (any minute in seder not learning is geneivah) 2) they must be able to support the family at their level with the money they bring in (whether that’s in addition to the wife working, having a wealthy father or father in law, or a family with really really low physical standards- a person should not learn full time at the expense of the physical and psychological well-being of his family). Once you have to get a job, then one should put in the hishtadlus that he needs to be prepared in such a way that he has time to learn and enough money to support his family at their level. If you can do that without college… great! If you need college, that’s also great!
Additionally, I assume being a wordly person is a positive thing (as long as this worldly knowledge comes at the expense of time that would be wasted, not Talmud Torah). Understanding G-d’s wisdom in science, math, and history, understanding how the world works in terms of politics and economics, and knowing skills to succeed in general like how to write and speak are positive things to know.
College is definitely appropriate for those who need a parnassah (which is most of Benei Yisro’el according to Berachos 35b). Learning full time is only for the top of the top. People are supporting kollel and they expect to receive sechar Talmud Torah in return (it’s a Yisachar Zevulon relationship). If a person is learning full time and is being supported by a kollel and other Jews, any minute that is wasted that he should be learning, and anytime he is not learning to full capacity is geneivah (I personally believe that all kollelim should have time cards and bechinos, and those who don’t live up to their responsibilities shouldn’t get paid). Learning full time is a wonderful thing, but again, it’s only for the best of the best. Everyone of course should be learning every day (each according to what he is able to), but there is nothing wrong with learning a trade and getting a job (nowadays that usually entails college), that’s what most Jews are supposed to be doing.
check out post “Heimish Tours in E”Y”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/heimish-tours-in-ey