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I don’t know who the best is… but I went to a Ishay Ribo concert a few years ago… and his fans span the spectrum- Charedi, Yeshivish, Dati Leumi, secular… and to see everyone singing together with him אשרי העם שככה לו, אשרי העם שה’ אלוקיו was one of the most powerful experiences of my life, and something that I don’t think any other Jewish singer can pull off.
Yankel- it’s not blame. I agree that many of the early Zionist leaders were virulently anti religious and I understand why most Rabbanim were against it. I’m not necessarily saying they made the wrong decision. But a consequence of that reality is that many young impressionable youth felt that they had to make a choice between Yiddishkeit and Zionism, and saw a much brighter future in the Land of Israel, and chose Zionism. It obviously had to be that way, but it doesn’t stop me from daydreaming about an alternative history where that choice didn’t need to be made, and that the land and state was built up by Zionists who didn’t feel the need to reject Yiddishkeit.
UJM- I don’t know much about most MO schools, I’m sure you are right about some of them, not all of them (especially the separate gender ones). But I agree, in my humble opinion based on my understanding of the sugya, having a required Gemara class would be more difficult (though I assume and hope they have their own poskim making these decisions). But that’s not what I was talking about, I was talking about an elective Gemara class for girls. That doesn’t seem to be nearly as problematic (if at all) based on my understanding of the sugya, and that the girls in the class would get rewarded for such an endeavor (and presumably the teacher as well).
Non political – ok… Once we accept that point where teaching is allowed and a competent instructor is necessary, I don’t see the halachic distinction between a teacher learning with a female student one on one, or a teacher teaching a class of women (assuming they chose to be there and were independently motivated to pursue that learning)
Hakatan- that logic is so backwards. They get reward for learning so it therefore must be permitted. But in order to prevent them from learning Torah improperly, they are not allowed to be taught. Therefore, the only permissible way for them to learn is completely on their own with no teacher? That would only exacerbate the problem! Not having a teacher would guarantee that they would learn it improperly… Isn’t that what Chazal is trying to avoid? How could they permit learning Torah Shebeal Peh but only without a teacher in order to prevent them from learning it improperly?
HaKatan- the lies that you spout make me so sad.
There is no shmad in Israel. No one is forcing or trying to make religious Jews in Israel non religious. This isn’t the inquisition. This isn’t the 25 year Russian army. Yes, there are challenges but there are challenges everywhere. At least in Israel the chances that even a non religious Jew will marry Jewish and will eventually return (or their children) is far greater.
And of course Jews lived in Israel before the medina… but it was far fewer. The goyish governments did not allow unrestricted immigration. Very often there were harsh punitive taxes making life in Israel unsustainable for many. The medina has removed the boundaries for entry for all Jews with the right of return, and while there still are high taxes, the current state allows all Jews to thrive in our homeland. Can you not see how the demographic in the Holy Land is drastically different from the times you are describing? Can you not see how the Medina has enabled all of that to happen?
The government is so much better to all Jews, secular and religious (including Charedi), than any other country in the world. You are so blinded by your hatred of Zionism that you can’t even see what good it has brought to our people.
“Hashem did listen to those who prayed for the Zionists and did give them success, to the tremendous detriment of Jews worldwide. ” What kefira is this? How far have you fallen that in order to rationalize your conviction that Zionism is evil you need to convince yourself that Hashem acted to the detriment of Jews worldwide in helping the Medina succeed? Are you that blind?
Other than your group of stubborn hardliners, I assume everyone else will see right through your lies and pathetic attempts to discredit all the good that Hashem has given us through the medina. If this truly is Kibutz Galuyos and the precursor to Mashiach, I have no doubt that you will be among the group who will be in denial and will remain behind while the rest of us experience geulah.
There is a tangible link between the Ahavas Eretz Yisroel and the medina. Before the medina, for most Jews, ahavas Eretz Yisroel was only theoretical. The medina has enabled us to make our Ahavas Eretz Yisroel tangible. The medina enables all of us to return home to Eretz Yisroel and be mekayem yishuv Eretz Yisroel. The medina is fascillitating a modern day Kibutz Galuyos, which may very well be the precusor to Mashiach iyH. There is more Torah in Eretz Yisroel then any time in history since the fall of Beitar (and maybe even more than then), and there may very well be more Torah in Eretz Yisroel than anywhere in the world. The medina not only enables this but is the biggest funder of Torah. They provide services to enable us to live here and provide an army as HaShem’s tool to protect us from our surrounding enemies. While the medina is far from perfect, we are all better off with medina, and owe it our undying hakaras hatov.
I know the original founders were not only irreligious, but anti-religious. I don’t know how HKB”H will judge them, but what they were able to build for us is undeniable. Their positive impact for Klal Yisroel will be enjoyed by us for generations iyH. And sometimes, when I think about it, it makes me sad. Many of the Rabbonim at the time felt that this irreligious anti religious Zionisim was incompatible with halacha, And because of that, many young Zionists who became pioneers of the eventual state had to choose between Yiddishkeit and Zionism… and belieiving that they had no future in anti semitic and genocidal Europe, chose ZIonism and a future in Eretz Yisroel at the expense of Avodas HaShem. They believed the Rabbonim that Yiddishkeit and Zionism were incompatible… and abandoned Yiddishket.
But I wonder… did it have to be that way? I wonder what the modern state would look like if the early pioneers and founders didn’t feel like they had to choose between one and the other? If we had more religious Zionists from beginning combatting the anti-religious element. I wonder how that state would look like then…
But HaShem decided that that wasn’t how the state was supposed to look. HaShem chose to grant our yeshuos throguh non religious and anti religious, and granted them great success. Now we have a medina, we have Eretz Yisroel, the positives and the minuses… הודו לה’ כי טוב.
Hakatan- there are some MO schools that have required Gemara classes and I agree, I do find that problematic. But to have an elective Gemara class seems to be perfectly in line with this halacha. They are internally motivated to learn, and instead of doing it on their own which will certainly lead to the misrepresentations that Chazal were afraid of, they now have a teacher who can teach this group of women who chose to expand their knowledge willingly and voluntarily. I don’t see how that would violate this halacha. This is Torah that they will receive sechar for
Ujm- my understanding is that women are chayav in Torah shebichsav. This is based on the idea that women are chayav in Torah that is practical for them. That includes halachos that are relevant for them, musar, and presumably Tanach also… Based on the Gemara on Megila that explains that even though there were over a million neviim in our history, the only nevuos that were recorded were the ones that had messages for all generations… Presumably including men and women.
Therefore, the prohibition to teach Torah is on the rest of the Torah Shebeal Peh… The areas of Torah that women aren’t obligated in. And it’s this very area, the area where they have no obligation to learns, they also receive sechar for learning it… Meaning it can’t be an absolute prohibition for them to learn.
Hakatan- I agree with you that saying women need or must learn Gemara because they are exposed to and excel in secular knowledge is weak. BUT, their exposure and success in secular knowledge may create a desire to learn Torah at even deeper and more intellectual levels. That desire makes sense… If you’re spending so much time expanding your knowledge in the secular world, al achas kama vekama they may want to match it or even exceed that with Torah knowledge.
Now if it’s prohibited, then too bad so sad… Not much we can do about it. But is it prohibited? Hard to say that it’s prohibited when both the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch say that they are rewarded for doing so. I mean there are other examples of Torah mitzvos that the chachanim said not to do… Like blowing shofar on RH or shaking arba minim on Sukkos when they fall on Shabbos. But Chazal said no, so we don’t. Does the Rambam or SA tell us we would receive reward for violating Chazal to be mekayem the mitzvah doraysa? If course not!
So the very fact that the Rambam and SA open up hilchos Talmud Torah for women that they receive reward for doing so is pretty strong evidence that it’s not prohibited. (And then you just have to reconcile that halacha with the command not to teach your daughter Torah… Maybe that’s specifically a father, or maybe it’s imposing Gemara on women with a required class in school)
But, if they are genuine about learning Torah and engaging in an area of avodas HaShem that they are not obligated in, and it makes why this desire is more prevalent in modern times, then it’s a beautiful thing for then to learn any area of Torah they want, and they do receive reward for it!
Hakatan- I don’t think it has anything to do with need. It’s clear from the sources that they are allowed to learn Gemara, that’s why both the Rambam and S”A say they get sechar. But they still aren’t commanded to do it. So with no motivation to learn, they aren’t going to bend over backwards to engage in Avodas Hashem that they aren’t commanded to do and only receive sechar as eino metzuveh veoseh. You need to be internally motivated to engage in an aspect of Avodas Hashem that you aren’t commanded in.
For most of Jewish history, women were not educated, or minimally educated, in both Torah and secular knowledge, so additional Torah knowledge wasn’t appealing to them. Which is fine. They have no command do so. But as women become more educated, they have a desire to expand their Torah knowledge beyond what they are commanded to learn… and that is also fine. Because Torah is for everyone, men and women, that’s why they both receive sechar for learning it. Men have a bigger responsibility and therefore a bigger reward, but nothing is closed to women. If it were, if it were actually prohibited, they wouldn’t receive sechar for doing it.
Without Mashiach and without the Beis HaMikdash, we are still officially in galus wherever we live. But kedushah shniyah kidsha le’asid lavo. Eretz Yisroel is still a holier existence. We’re still mekayem the mitzvah of Yishuv EY. Ein Torah KeToras EY. And, returning to EY is quite possibly a kiyum of Kibuutz Galuyos which iyH either precedes or is actually part of the eventual geulah… meaning this mass return to EY may very well be the atchalta l’geulasa.
Ujm- I didn’t ignore that at all. That’s the very contradiction. On the one hand the SA and Rambam say Chazal commanded not to teach your daughter Torah because it leads to tiflus. On the other hand, a woman receives reward for learning that Torah. If the understanding is as you are presenting it, then Rambam and SA never should have added that they receive reward doing so… What’s the point? I don’t believe that’s even part of that Gemara in Sota… They added it for a practical reason. Otherwise, it’s very misleading… It’s like they are trying to entice women to do something forbidden by telling them that they nevertheless receive reward for violating that halacha?
And I can’t argue with your observations, but mine are not the same.
UJM- it’s not so clear that the halachos in SA and Rambam are clearly prohibiting teaching women parts of Torah. The Rambam and SA open up the halachos by saying that women receive sechar for learning Torah but not as much as man because she’s eino metzuveh v’oseh. And then brings down that Chazal commanded a father not teach his daughter Torah for the reasons in the Gemara. How do we reconcile these two statements? That women receive sechar for learning something that they are prohibited from doing? That would be very misleading by the Rambam and SA to say that if that were the case… why entice women to do something prohibited by telling they receive reward to do so? Or maybe that women are allowed to learn Torah and receive sechar for doing so but they just can’t be taught? That’s counterintuitive. Learning and being taught go hand in hand. If we are afraid that women will misrepresent halacha, then allowing them to learn without allowing them to be taught only exacerbates the problem. It’s only referring to parts of Torah that are practical to them? That also doesn’t seem correct because that’s Torah that they’re obligated in and the SA is clear that we’re talking about the parts of Torah that they aren’t obligated in.
There is clearly something that is not allowed, but it’s not as black and white as you make it sound. (Personally, I think what the Rambam and SA are saying is that a woman is allowed to learn, and is obviously therefore allowed to be taught. What’s not allowed is imposing on them to learn the Torah that they are exempt in, like having a required class in Gemara or Torah Shebe’al Peh… as opposed to boys who are all compelled to learn Gemara from a young age whether they want to or not. But if a women is motivated by the right reasons to expand her Torah knowledge, then I think that’s exactly what the SA and Rambam are saying that the receive sechar for and can certainly be taught)
The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch aren’t as clear as you make them out to be. Yes, you’re right that they quote the shitah of R’ Eliezer and explain that Chazal said a person shouldn’t teach his daughter for the reasons that you stated. But you missed the opening line of that halacha in the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch! That a woman receives reward for learning Torah! Just not as much as a man since a man is commanded and they are not.
Why would a woman receive reward for doing something prohibited?!? I think it’s clear, that it’s not as black and white as you presented it. There is no reason, in a halachic work, for the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch to open up with them receiving reward.
In my humble opinion, the prohibition is not on women. They are allowed to learn. The prohibition is on teaching, not learning. Which I understand to mean, you cannot impose learning on all women and girls. It can’t be a mandatory learning in the way it is for boys. But if you have someone who genuinely wants to expand her Torah knowledge, and she is smart enough to do so… Then she indeed receives reward for doing so.
Ebrown- I am surprised at your attitude. “Crybabies indeed”. I understand (though vehemently disagree) why people think Charedim shouldn’t join the army. But many of the people who are complaining are not just “crybabies” but they are genuinely suffering because of the lack of manpower. Months away from their families. Months at a time away from the Beis Medrash. Months away from the business. Parnassah’s suffering and failing. Can you even imagine being on the front lines facing our enemies, trying to keep you and your men alive, with the nagging constant thought in the back of your head that you are not confident about your family’s financial future because of your failing business? The physical and psychological toll of going back to the front many many times because there aren’t enough soldiers.
Your lack of empathy is so shocking and disturbing to me in general…even more so that it’s not even a lack of empathy for random people, but your very brothers who are sacrificing so much to make sure Acheinu Beis Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel are safe… I don’t understand how you can speak of them like this. Can you honestly close your eyes, put yourself in their shoes, imagine what they are risking and sacrificing, and still call them cry babies with a straight face?
I don’t fully understand the position of the Charedi Gedolim. Currently we have a secular state and a secular IDF, there’s not much we can do about that. We’re also surrounded by many nations and terrorist organizations who want to destroy us. Not much we can do about that either. Given the reality, they don’t think we should have an army? Or only secular Jews should be in the army but all religious Jews, whether Charedi or Dati LeUmi are prohibited from joining? That would take a lot of manpower away from the army, and at least bederech hateva, put us in much more danger that we are in. Or do they agree that there should be an army, after all, ein somchin al haneis and we need to work within teva to defend ourselves against our enemies… but it’s only the other Jews, secular and Dati LeUmi who need to sacrifice for that defense, but that Charedim, whether learning or not, are not only exempt from that burden but prohibited from joining?
HaKatan- “Look how heretical the IDF is! Attributing their victory to their own strength and not God. כחי ועוצם ידי! Can’t you see how clearly terrible they are?!?!?!”
Also HaKatan- “It wasn’t God who helped Israel to victory in 1967, it was just the military strength of the IDF. How dare people think that God would actually help the Zionists. It’s clearly because they were stronger than their enemies”
Must be hard twisting your brain into that pretzel.
HaKatan- eh. The Jewish world would be a lot worse off if it weren’t for the State of Israel. More intermarriage, more assimilation, less money for Torah, less Jews being mekayem the mitzvah of Yishuv HaAretz, less protection for our mekomos hakedoshim, less Toras Eretz Yisoel. Of course there are problems, but so much good has come from the State and it’s always shocking to see how you and those like you refuse to acknowledge any of them, refuse to thank HaShem for it, and refuse to give hakara hatov to the Kli that is the State that HaShem uses to dispense all of this good to Klal Yisroel.
UJM- I have bitachon that Hashem chose the right mode of governance that we need now for Eretz Yisroel, and we should all be thankful to Hashem that it exists, and work together to ensure that it’s the best it could possibly be- religiously, economically, and safe.
HaKatan- Why is the modern day Medina and Zionism heresy? Maybe I missed it, but I haven’t seen a good explanation for that accusation.
I understand how many early Zionists were heretics as they believed the Torah was only necessary to unite us as a nation in golus but having our own land and state would replace the need for the Torah to be our unifying factor. But clearly Religious Zionists don’t believe in that detail as they view the need for our state to go hand in hand with the Torah, not to replace it. So while there may be heretical forms of Zionism, it’s certainly not representative of Zionism today. In fact, if anyone believes that anymore, it’s certainly a quiet minority and it doesn’t seem to play a role in the actual government. The State of Israel is the biggest funder of Torah in the entire world, and the fact that there are Religious Zionists and Charedim as part of the Knesset only demonstrate that modern day Zionism is not nearly as monolithic and anti-Torah as it once was.
And while Zionism and the state is controversial- does it violate the Three Oaths or not (and how binding are they in the first place)? What should be our attitude towards joining forces with secular and even heretical Jews to further a common goal? Even if Zionism is wrong on both of those questions, it doesn’t make it heretical.
And in terms of Halacha, do modern day poskim, even the most hardliners, actually follow that idea that even Religious Zionism is actual halachic heresy? Do any poskim say that it’s forbidden to daven in a Dati LeUmi shul? That they can’t make a minyan? That you can’t trust their kashrus? That you can’t drink their wine? Many of the answers to these questions are “no” for actual heretical sects like Conservative and Reform Judaism… but does anyone actually say that about Dati LeUmi shuls? Is any Charedi who chaps a minyan at a DL shul or eats at their DL neighbor, friend or relative violating halacha according to any posek?
HaKatan- Plain logic is that Zionism is bringing us closer to Geulah. If for not other reason then kibbutz galuyos is an essential component of the geulah and due to Zionism and the Medina (with it’s right of return), almost half of Klal Yisroel (if not more) have returned to Eretz Yisroel. That’s more than any point in history since the Churban. That is the definition of Kibutz Galuyos and by extension, the beginning of our eventual geulah iyH.
Haimy- Really? You want a unit that only answers to the Gedolei Torah? After stressing how are Gedolim need to be kulo Torah with very little experience with the outside world, you would consult them on military matters with them having very little experience with the military matters, political matters, or foreign policy? Obviously, poskim need to be consulted on Halachic issues that come up in the army, just like poskim need to be consulted when halachic issues come up in medical or financial matters… but ultimately, you’re not asking a Gadol to make the final medical decision of a hospital or for medical treatment. You leave that to the doctors, and even when they are atheists! Why shouldn’t a military unit be under the jurisdiction of military experts and generals just because they aren’t frum?
Who cares if it\s technically a Milchemes Mitzvah or not? Yes, there are speicifc rules of obligations when it comes to a Milchemes Mitzvah. but it also teaches us an attitude on what our colelctive responsibility should be when our enemies attacks us who want to exterminate ALL of us and take our land. Does a Milchemes Mitzvah need a king and a Sanhedrin? Maybe. But just because we lack one doesn’t mean that we can’t take the lessons of Milchemes Mitzvah and apply it to the current tragic reality. This is not a chok like an Esrog where if it’s missing a small component then we dump the whole thing. A lemon that looks like an esrog is not an esrog. This is much deeper then that. These are our lives. These are our children. This is our land. And this is our future. What’s our responsibility to each other? What does Milchemes Mitzvah teach us? That we only have a responsibility to stand up for each other against our common enemy when we have 71 Sages sitting at the Lishkas HaGazis? What a tragic way to turn off our brains and throw our brothers into the fire while we pretend nothing can hurt is. What selfishness.
I liked Vance until he ran with the immigrants eating pets lie. When someone in power is willing to take an unsubstantiated rumor and present it as fact which is embraced by their base, it reminds me of similar things rulers and politicians said about our people throughout history with disastrous results. They happen to be on our side now bH, but if that were to change…
I’m happy he won in the sense that he was better than the alternative which was seemingly very scary. But I can’t in good conscious celebrate his victory knowing the kind of financial and assault crimes that he has allegedly committed (and some even convicted of!) He has possibly done some very very bad things and it makes me sad that in order to ensure that our interests our met, we have to prop up and praise and elect this kind of person. This seems like borderline chanifa.
It’s important to note how serious hatred is. The big 3 averios were responsible for destroying the first Beis HaMikdash while sinas chinam alone was responsible for the second- a galus that we’re still in. Chilonim may violate aveiros (and presumably not the big 3), but their dedication to sacrifice everything they hold dear to stand in between us and our enemies is the exact opposite of sinas chinam and probably a greater zechus then you give credit for. Neturei Karta may be fulfilling every other mitzvah, and they may even have good intentions for the things they do wrong, but aligning themselves with genocidal terrorists who want to massacre and destroy is is the greatest show of sinas chinam then I can think of. It’s the most destructive thing a Jew can do and I can think of no greater Chilul Hashem. Hopfully the zechusim of holy soldiers, both Dati and Chiloni, will be able to outweigh the terrible damage that Neturei Karta does to our people. May we all have a year of safety, security, health, happiness, Ahavas Yisroel and Avodas HaShem.
UJM- I wouldn’t compare the Yeshivish velt making shalom with YU (or even Dati LeUmi) to making shalom between the Orthodox and Conservative/Reform. I would compare it to making shalom between the Misnagdim and the Chasidim.
UJM- ” Zionism and the State of Israel have been devastating to Klal Yisroel” Every generation there was anti-semitism, and absolutely violent and destructive anti semitism at that. In each generation it takes a different shape and form. From the religious persecution of the crusades and the Inquisition, to the race and nationalist persecution of the Nazis in Germany. Nowadays, Eisav Sonei es Yaakov takes the shape of Arab violence and anti-semitism. It’s easy to use that as a cheap shot against the state and argue that it’s the cause of the violence, but anyone who knows Jewish history knows that’s not true. If there was no State, if Zionism had died, do you really think this would be the generation that the violence and the anti-semitism died and we would finally live in peace with the Goyim around us? Of course not… it would just take some other form. The only difference between the violent anti-semitism nowadays and of years passed is that finally God gave us the means to defend ourselves.
In addition, I would like to argue that spiritually, the State has been magnificent for Klal Yisroel. Yes, I know that Zionisism was born out of a nationalisitc and anti-religious fervor… and many Zionists are still not just non-religious but anti-religious. The State is far from being majority dati (whether Charedi or Dati Leumi) and there is much work to be done. But unlike other spiritual challenges to our people, from the haskalah in Europe, to Communism in the Soviet Union, to the non-religious in the USA… the non-religious’ connection to Klal Yisroel as a nation is also weakend and we see so many marrying out and dropping out from our people. The non religious in Israel still maintain a fierce connection to Eretz Yisroel and to Klal Yisroel as a nation (even though not as a religion) and still maintain fidelity to not only our land, but a far higher percentage stay married in than their golus counterparts. This also keeps their pintele Yid alive, always leaving the chance for them to indeed get close to the religion. Without the connection to Zionism, the State, and Eretz Yisroel, they would be drowning in the secular world of Europe and the USA and many would be gone forever.
Thank you HaShem for the wonderful gift of the Medina. Klal Yisroel is better off for it.
UJM- “The Zionist State has been the largest cause of anti-Semitic violence, terrorism, war and deaths r”l against the Jewish People ever since the rasha Theodore Herzl announced the Zionist goals and especially every since the rasha David Ben-Gurion and his henchmen established the Zionist Entity.”
I think the physical destruction of the Holocaust and the Soviet Union are miles ahead… as well as the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US (in terms of intermarriage).
Hakatan- can you clarify which Jews were against the Zionists “invading?” Jews were returning to Eretz Yisroel in droves pre WWII which is our God given right. We knew that as long as EY was in control of someone else, that our right to return would be limited… And that came true when the British issued the White Papers preventing the escapees and survivors of the Holocaust to come home. Other than hardcore 3 Shvuah-nicks who thinks establishing a state is the fourth yeihareg veal yaavor, who at the time was against us establishing a state, even via war, to ensure that all Jews worldwide would have our home available and accessible to return to?
And I’m also not sure it was an invasion. The World gave us a state when the British left and then the new state was invaded by the Arabs.