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Hakatan- they were afraid of all the damage that it would cause. BH they were wrong. The center of Torah has returned to EY. Kibutz Galuyos is happening. More and more Jews are able to fulfill Yishuv EY. Secular Jews who would be intermarrying in Chul are marrying Jewish. No way a non Jewish government, no matter how friendly they are, would be able to provide what the state has.
Is it perfect? No way. Are there problems and conflicts between Torah and the secular government? Of course. And we deal with each challenge, one at a time. But to claim that the State has caused more damage than good is just a lie that helps you feel better about your untenable position.
Somejew- exactly- Iran sees people like you who are just as violently anti those trying to enable Klal Yisroel to build homes in Eretz Yisroel and anti our holy soldiers who sacrifice so much to be HKB”H’s tool to protect us against our genocidal enemies as they are!
I think the army is a serious issue, but we can’t let it devolve into hatred and sinas chinam. No, I don’t want my Charedi brothers to leave. They are a valuable part of our people and our state. Yes, I think they should join their army. I think their zechus HaTorah would be a huge benefit for our entire army on the battlefield, and I think we need them to help bear the terrible burden that their DL and secular brother are bearing.
But even if they do not join the rest of us, they are still our brothers I, for one, do not want them to leave. Eretz Yisroel and the Medina is only stronger with more Jews, more Yahadus, and more Torah… regardless of whatever other flaws we all have. ????? ?? ??? ?????.
It’s a good thing the commander was disciplined and suspended for such unacceptable behavior. BH the IDF was able to punish such disgusting and terrible activity. Hopefully whatever new commander they have will treat all their soldiers, including Chareidim, properly and the Charedi soldiers will show what an asset they can be to our national defense.
YYA- doesn’t seem like you know the difference
YYA- Right, that’s your caveat. “Real” criminals. The police are only supported to enforce law and order when you agree with the law and order that they are enforcing. How is that different than the leftists who fight with ICE over people they don’t consider “real” criminals? It’s okay for us to pick and choose in Israel but not okay for the leftists in the US?
UJM- why are you so quick to support ICE for the way they deal with criminals but you vilify the Israeli police for the way they deal with criminals? We should support the police in either state for enforcing law and order in their country.
UJM- Eh. I don’t buy it. I agree Pretti did some bad things. And he should have been arrested, put on trial, and punished accordingly. But shot dead like a dog in the street? With ICE serving as the judge, jury, and executioner? Horrific. I don’t buy that they thought their life was in danger. I don’t believe it was in self defense. As far as I know, he did not have his gun out when he was obstructing them, and his gun was removed before he was shot. Was there confusion? Maybe. Maybe it wasn’t intentional murder. But when you are police officers with deadly weapons, you have a much greater responsibility to handle it with care. And this “confusion” led unnecessarily to the death of someone. They are trigger happy in a situation where it wasn’t called for. And now someone is dead because of it. Maybe he wasn’t a good guy… but we should not be celebrating the untimely and unnecessary death of someone.
Ujm- resisting arrest is not the same as being a threat. That shouldn’t mean you get murdered in cold blood. He may have been wrong, but the punishment did not fit the crime. That was horrific and it’s scary to see so many people bending over backwards to rationalize murder.
Ujm- very tough argument to make considering he was on the ground and neutralized before be was killed. More likely, the ICE agents killed him because they were filled with violent rage and believed they had the power to do whatever they wanted. That’s murder.
UJM- It was murder. I’m not saying the victim was in the right with what he was doing, but he was not a threat, and his crimes didn’t warrant a murder in cold blood. He had a legal gun (don’t conservatives believe in the right to bear arms?) which he was not holding and it was removed from him before he was killed. From everything I have read and seen, there is no excuse for that murder and I am shocked how many Jews can support such murderous violence.
Carrying the burden doesn’t mean who has the bigger impact. I made it clear, I have no idea. But I terms of burden, no lomed Torah has any burden close to the challenges and sacrifices that soldiers make especially in an extended war. It’s an insult and sheker to suggest otherwise.
UJM- the notion that soldiers are carrying none of the burden is such sheker. However you balance the need for hishtadlus derech hateva of fighting our enemies with soldiers and the spiritual hishtadlus of Talmud Torah, there is no question that the burden of soldeirs is far greater… not even comparable. Risk of life, limb, mental well being, PTSD, loss of friends and fellow soldiers, loss of time with family, learning, parnassah, quality of life while in the field… the burden of solders cannot be compared to the burden of Lomdei Torah.
The need to lie and minimize the need and sacrifice of our soldiers only demonstrates how little you, and almost all other Charedim, believe in the Charedi position that they need to make up lies to validate that approach.
Attacking innocent goyim or making friends and supporting our genocidal enemies in an effort to weaken the Jewish state? Both will have to face din v’cheshbon for their terrible actions.
Hakatan and somejew- I think you’re pretty much saying what I was saying. Hashem gave us back Eretz Yisroel but you determined that that’s not how or when you want it. That’s pretty much the rationalization I was describing.
SomeJew- ignoring the unnecessary personal attacks… my point is simply that we daven to return to EY and Hashem has enabled that to happen. We thank Hashem for EY and Hashem has enabled us to utilize that gift. It takes a certain level of cognitive dissonance to pray those prayers with genuine kavana while ignoring our ability to make those prayers come true and blinding ourselves to the probability that this may be Hashem’s way of answering those tefilos. Sure, we can come up with excuses, we didn’t mean to return to EY by plane, we meant flying through the air in a miraculous fashion. We didn’t mean that we want to return to EY now, we meant at some point in the near or far future after Mashiach comes. I know it sounds like Hashem is giving us what we want, but it’s not really what we want and not really what we’re praying for.
But ultimately, it’s all an excuse. Moving to EY is hard. Probably harder than any other mitzvah. So we just convince ourselves that it’s not the right time, continuing to pray for something that hasn’t happened yet, and go about our lives in Chul pretending to yearn to leave.
I think those officer�s behavior is absolutely reprehensible. But it�s important to understand where they are coming from before we judge them. They probably have seen their fellow soldiers crushed under the weight of constant fighting against our genocidal enemy, and see the Charedim fight tooth and nail to sit out the war. They are angry and in pain. That�s very understandable. What�s not acceptable is how they were unable to control their anger and pain, and what actions they did because of the anger and pain. It�s not acceptable that their pain causes them to hate other Jews. But it�s important not to let this snowball out of control� they don�t hate frum people, they don�t despise Charedim (in theory), they are not Nazis. They do not want to destroy Torah. They are angered, pained, and yes, even hate their brothers who refuse to come to their aid and help shoulder the burden against our enemy who wants to destroy us all.
Somejew- I never denied the miracles that will accompany the geulah. But the geulah has not happened yet… Mashiach hasn’t come, the Beis HaMikdash hasn’t been rebuilt, and Malchus Beis Dovid has yet to be reestablished. Those likely will take place, hopefully in the near future, with great miracles.
But, our ability to return to Eretz Yisroel may or may not be a part of that. Does that also need to be miraculous, or is that the precursor to the geulah and can happen naturally, like the way it’s happening now? Almost every single barrier that prevented our people from returning to our land historically has been removed. How do you know that this isn’t God’s way of telling us it’s finally time to return home? We pray for it multiple times every day, how sure are you that this isn’t the way Hashem wants to answer our tefilos?
And even if this has nothing to do with the geulah… If this is something we really want, if this is something we pray for all the time and that we literally thank Hashem for every time we have a meal… What does that say about our tefilos when it is our conscious choice that’s preventing those prayers from being actualized?
Katan- yes, I stand by what I said. No religious Zionists, including R’ Kook, thinks the geulah happened. They may think it started, but no one thinks the Beis HaMikdash has been rebuilt or that the Davidic dynasty has been restored. Even the most hardcore Zionists still tear kriah at the Kosel. No one thinks the process has completed. The beracha of Vilirushalayim has no relevance to my post.
And it’s nice the Satmar Rav thinks it can only happen miraculously, but unless you are a Navi, no one can know for sure. And again, I’m not even talking about the geulah in this post. I’m talking about being able to return to our homeland, something we pray for multiple times a day. It’s not for nothing that the beracha of kibutz galuyos is far away from the berach of LiYerushalyim… they are two different things. We pray to return to our land, even before the geulah, even before the Beis HaMikdash is rebuilt, even before Mashiach and Malchus Beis Dovid has been reestablished. How exactly do you know what that Shofar will sound like, how chronologically connected it will be to Mashiach, and if it’s even literal? Yes, we can look at the esoteric pesukim of Nach and the Midrashic statements of Chazal and think how we God will return us to Israel… but unless you are a prophet, how can you say no to God returning us to Israel just because it’s not happening in the way you want it to happen or the way you thought it would happen?
And in that bentching, we also thank Hashem for giving us Torah and Bris Milah? These aren’t historical event, Hashem gave it to us forever. We don’t say thanks but no thanks. And Hashem gave EY to our forefathers as a nachala for all of their descendants. For generations it was inaccessible to us because of our enemies, but now it’s accessible again… and we thank Hashem for it… how could we thank HaShem and not take it? Hashem redeemed us from Egypt and we are still responsible to live up to the freedom that that gave us. Hashem gave us Torah and Bris Mila and we are still responsible to utilize those gifts. Why would EY be different?
Hakatan- I’m not talking about ViLiyerushalayim. I don’t think any Zionist says that has been fulfilled, You’re setting up a straw man. But we do say vekabtzeinu me’araba kanfos ha’aretz. We do say vahaveinu leshalom mearba kanfos haaretz. Are we prophets? Do we know exactly how Hashem plans on returning us to our homeland? If we have the opportunity to acheive what we are praying for, how do you know this wasn’t Hashem’s way of answering our tefilos? If you really mean those tefilos, you desperately want to return le’artzeinu… how can you say them with a straight face knowing you can return, but choose not to?
Every time we bench we thank Hashem for Eretz Yisroel. What exactly are you thanking Hashem for if you choose not to utilize that gift? Thanks God for the land… I’ll use it later? Now isn’t the best time for me? Thanks but no thanks?
Reminds me of the famous story- A man hears a radio report that a storm is coming an everyone should evacuate. He didn’t feel it was necessary because he has faith in God and God will save him. The rain starts pouring down, and his first floor is flooded. He is standing by the window and a guy in a motor boat drives by offering to save him. He responds “No thank you. I have faith in God and God will save me”. The flood waters cover his house and he is standing on the roof. A helicopter comes by and offers to save him. He responds “No thank you. I have faith in God and God will save me”. The man drowns. When he is standing before God, he doesn’t understand what happened, why hadn’t God saved him? God responded: “I sent you a radio a report, a motor boat, and a helicopter… what more did you want?”
We daven multiple times a day for Hashem to return us to our homeland. How do we know that Hashem hasn’t already answered those prayers? How do we know, that if we complain to God, asking why he didn’t answer our tefilos, that God wouldn’t respond “I sent you the medina, the right of return, and Nefesh B’Nefesh… what more do you want? Do we really mean our tefilos when it is within our ability to take advantage of the opportunities that God gave us to make those tefilos come true? When we bench and thank Hashem for Eretz Yisroel, but don’t legitimately try to take this gift that we’re thanking Hashem for… are we saying thanks but no thanks? Are we not being slightly hypocritical with our tefilos?
UJM- I think working together to make the status quo better is a more feasible solution than blowing it up (figuratively speaking) and hope that a new, completely unknown reality, will somehow continue to give us what we already have and fill in what we don’t.
UJM- I haven’t read all the comments, but as someone who is Dati Leumi, in theory, I’m not opposed to your solution.
I believe that the State of Israel is Atchlata DeGeulsa… but not because it’s a Jewish state. While I do take pride in a state run by Jews, the Magen David billowing in the air, our politicians in the UN defending our nation, our soldiers defending our people… that’s all emotional, I don’t think it’s Halachically significant. At the end of the day, it’s a secular government, not a Halachic one. Regardless of how many Jews hold within it a position of power.
What gives our government significance is what it does for our people. Is the biggest funder of Torah in the entire world. Protects our people and our Mekomos Kedoshim. And most importantly, has facilitated Kibutz Galuyos… through its Right of Return, Klal Yisroel is returning to its borders. We’re close to 50% of our nation in Eretz Yisroel. And since that is a fundamental piece of our geulah, I believe with almost 100% certainty that our government is Atchalta LeGeulas for facilitating that necessary redemptive step- Kibutz Galuyos.
That being said, if a non-Jewish, non-denominational government would provide all of that to our people, I think it would have the same significance Halachically. So if none of those positives would change, but a non-denominational state would bring greater peace, I’m on board. But I’m under no delusion that that’s the case. No non-Jewish government would give as much money to Torah or facilitate the Jewish growth of Eretz Yisroel as our government has. No non-Jewish government would give a blanket right of return to Jews world wide and fulfill Kibutz Galuyos.
And most importantly, it wouldn’t even fulfill it’s goal. No non-Jewish non-denominational government in Eretz Yisroel would be safer for Jews than the current government with it’s various security branches- Tzahal and Mossad and ISA and our police.
Hashem should continue to grant our government success, continue to facilitate our Kibutz Galuyos, protect our people, help our leaders make the right decisions, and bring Mashiach.
Somejew- yeah, because misisonizing christians are the same as dati leumi roshei yeshiva who son dies defending Klali Yisroel from our genocidal neighbors.
I don’t know when you’ll realize the tremendous evil that you type against your brothers, but it will take a superhuman neshama to be able to do teshuva on that.
I am still shocked that R’ Yosef could say such horrific and terrible things. As try as I can, I can not find any way to be melamed zechus for such terrible dibur.
HaKatan-
“Regarding how it could have happened, the answer obviously involves � among other factors � sichar viOnesh, as that is how Hashem conducts Klal Yisrael. If you choose to deny that, then perhaps you might wish to use these days to repent from that heresy.”
And maybe the message is in the other direction. As the Meshech Chochma famously said, when Jews started replacing Jerusalem with Berlin, it would lead to catastrophe. And maybe it’s not just Berlin… but Poland and Lithuania too. The Zionist movement was growing, we were afforded the opportunity to return to EY, but too many Jews from all religious background ignored the call… from the seculars in German universities to the Talmidei Chachamim in Polish shtetls. Those became their Jerusalem. And HaShem had to send us a terrible wakeup call.
I think arresting them is not productive and it won’t really change anything. I don’t know if there’s anything that will change anything but at the very least, the medina should not support those who don’t support the medina. If the Charedi yeshivos refuse to be a part of our collective effort to protect our land, then they should try and get outside donations. It may take money from other need tzedakos, but there’s only so much money to go around. And with so many soldiers sacrificing so much, the medina should do a much better job financially supporting them, as well as the yeshivos who are supportive of the defensive effort against our genocidal enemies.
Hakatan- I have never seen a modern day posek prohibit davening in a dl shul, including dl men for a minyan, eating at their homes, drinking their wine… Whatever some of the gedolim have said in the past, which was also likely a response to the militant anti religion Zionism which does not exist in the same way anymore… Minhag Yisroel has clearly paskined against it… And to claim that dl Jews are in the same category as christians, reform Jews, conservative Jews is a terrible aveira. You can think that one of the positions may be heretical, which I also disagree with vehemently, but that’s still much much different than labeling the entire tzibur as OTD and idolators.
Ujm- so comparing dati leumi to conservative and reform Jews is your next move? I guess it’s better than christianity.
It’s so sad how both of you can’t see how your poisoned. Maybe you’re professional trolls, I dont know. I guess I prefer that than you actually thinking dati leumi Jews, are practicing a foreign religion and are apikorsin and ovdei Avodah zara but deep down, I know that’s not true. And it makes me sad and angry.
Good luck.
Somejew- I do not envy the din vecheshbon of someone who can be Motzi la’az so publicly on the entire frum dati leumi tzibur, including rabbanim, dayanim, and talmidei chachanim, by comparing them to a Christian sect. I hope you are able to do teshuva before that time comes, but considering the amount of genuine mechila you will need, it’s will be a monumental achievement.
As crazy as they sound, I don’t think HaKatan, UJM, and Somejew are lying when they agree with and support the assertion that most boys come out of the army OTD. It’s just that they think Dati LeUmi is OTD. Which is probably a lot worse than lying.
This is purely anecdotal, but I live in Israel and know a number of religious boys who went to the army. I know of one who went OTD, and one who was on their way to being OTD but came back because of the army. All of the others (hesder boys) thankfully remained frum.
I don’t know who the best is… but I went to a Ishay Ribo concert a few years ago… and his fans span the spectrum- Charedi, Yeshivish, Dati Leumi, secular… and to see everyone singing together with him ???? ??? ???? ??, ???? ??? ??’ ?????? was one of the most powerful experiences of my life, and something that I don’t think any other Jewish singer can pull off.
Yankel- it’s not blame. I agree that many of the early Zionist leaders were virulently anti religious and I understand why most Rabbanim were against it. I’m not necessarily saying they made the wrong decision. But a consequence of that reality is that many young impressionable youth felt that they had to make a choice between Yiddishkeit and Zionism, and saw a much brighter future in the Land of Israel, and chose Zionism. It obviously had to be that way, but it doesn’t stop me from daydreaming about an alternative history where that choice didn’t need to be made, and that the land and state was built up by Zionists who didn’t feel the need to reject Yiddishkeit.
UJM- I don’t know much about most MO schools, I’m sure you are right about some of them, not all of them (especially the separate gender ones). But I agree, in my humble opinion based on my understanding of the sugya, having a required Gemara class would be more difficult (though I assume and hope they have their own poskim making these decisions). But that’s not what I was talking about, I was talking about an elective Gemara class for girls. That doesn’t seem to be nearly as problematic (if at all) based on my understanding of the sugya, and that the girls in the class would get rewarded for such an endeavor (and presumably the teacher as well).
Non political – ok… Once we accept that point where teaching is allowed and a competent instructor is necessary, I don’t see the halachic distinction between a teacher learning with a female student one on one, or a teacher teaching a class of women (assuming they chose to be there and were independently motivated to pursue that learning)
Hakatan- that logic is so backwards. They get reward for learning so it therefore must be permitted. But in order to prevent them from learning Torah improperly, they are not allowed to be taught. Therefore, the only permissible way for them to learn is completely on their own with no teacher? That would only exacerbate the problem! Not having a teacher would guarantee that they would learn it improperly… Isn’t that what Chazal is trying to avoid? How could they permit learning Torah Shebeal Peh but only without a teacher in order to prevent them from learning it improperly?
HaKatan- the lies that you spout make me so sad.
There is no shmad in Israel. No one is forcing or trying to make religious Jews in Israel non religious. This isn’t the inquisition. This isn’t the 25 year Russian army. Yes, there are challenges but there are challenges everywhere. At least in Israel the chances that even a non religious Jew will marry Jewish and will eventually return (or their children) is far greater.
And of course Jews lived in Israel before the medina… but it was far fewer. The goyish governments did not allow unrestricted immigration. Very often there were harsh punitive taxes making life in Israel unsustainable for many. The medina has removed the boundaries for entry for all Jews with the right of return, and while there still are high taxes, the current state allows all Jews to thrive in our homeland. Can you not see how the demographic in the Holy Land is drastically different from the times you are describing? Can you not see how the Medina has enabled all of that to happen?
The government is so much better to all Jews, secular and religious (including Charedi), than any other country in the world. You are so blinded by your hatred of Zionism that you can’t even see what good it has brought to our people.
“Hashem did listen to those who prayed for the Zionists and did give them success, to the tremendous detriment of Jews worldwide. ” What kefira is this? How far have you fallen that in order to rationalize your conviction that Zionism is evil you need to convince yourself that Hashem acted to the detriment of Jews worldwide in helping the Medina succeed? Are you that blind?
Other than your group of stubborn hardliners, I assume everyone else will see right through your lies and pathetic attempts to discredit all the good that Hashem has given us through the medina. If this truly is Kibutz Galuyos and the precursor to Mashiach, I have no doubt that you will be among the group who will be in denial and will remain behind while the rest of us experience geulah.
There is a tangible link between the Ahavas Eretz Yisroel and the medina. Before the medina, for most Jews, ahavas Eretz Yisroel was only theoretical. The medina has enabled us to make our Ahavas Eretz Yisroel tangible. The medina enables all of us to return home to Eretz Yisroel and be mekayem yishuv Eretz Yisroel. The medina is fascillitating a modern day Kibutz Galuyos, which may very well be the precusor to Mashiach iyH. There is more Torah in Eretz Yisroel then any time in history since the fall of Beitar (and maybe even more than then), and there may very well be more Torah in Eretz Yisroel than anywhere in the world. The medina not only enables this but is the biggest funder of Torah. They provide services to enable us to live here and provide an army as HaShem’s tool to protect us from our surrounding enemies. While the medina is far from perfect, we are all better off with medina, and owe it our undying hakaras hatov.
I know the original founders were not only irreligious, but anti-religious. I don’t know how HKB”H will judge them, but what they were able to build for us is undeniable. Their positive impact for Klal Yisroel will be enjoyed by us for generations iyH. And sometimes, when I think about it, it makes me sad. Many of the Rabbonim at the time felt that this irreligious anti religious Zionisim was incompatible with halacha, And because of that, many young Zionists who became pioneers of the eventual state had to choose between Yiddishkeit and Zionism… and belieiving that they had no future in anti semitic and genocidal Europe, chose ZIonism and a future in Eretz Yisroel at the expense of Avodas HaShem. They believed the Rabbonim that Yiddishkeit and Zionism were incompatible… and abandoned Yiddishket.
But I wonder… did it have to be that way? I wonder what the modern state would look like if the early pioneers and founders didn’t feel like they had to choose between one and the other? If we had more religious Zionists from beginning combatting the anti-religious element. I wonder how that state would look like then…
But HaShem decided that that wasn’t how the state was supposed to look. HaShem chose to grant our yeshuos throguh non religious and anti religious, and granted them great success. Now we have a medina, we have Eretz Yisroel, the positives and the minuses… ???? ??’ ?? ???.