simcha613

Joseph- I guess I don’t assume that there is only one way how Simchas Torah works. Do you have a source that the only way for women to participate in Simchas Torah is to watch the men dance, and it’s some sort of chisaron in their enjoyment or love of Torah if they don’t enjoy or appreciate watching other people celebrate?

Yes, but watching people celebrate the Torah is only one way to enjoy Torah. Another way is to celebrate yourselves. A third way is just to learn (some people just don’t like dancing- they do their seven hakafos quickly and just learn). Of course I hope most people enjoy Torah more than going to a concert. But the way you think woman should practice Simchas Torah is not the only way to enjoy Torah.

Just because a person enjoys going to a concert doesn’t mean they would enjoy listening to their spouse or a random person. Concerts are performances by professionals. Simchas Torah hakafos are not. There are some women who enjoy watching it. Others don’t. But it’s not comparable to a concert of a world famous professional entertainer. There are many ways to enjoy Simchas Torah. The way I’m assuming your wife prefers is just one option.

I really hope you aren’t serious. If you are, it doesn’t sound like a smart idea at all. Without training, and with only adrenaline leading the way, you’re probably more likely to accidentally kill someone innocent, and endanger those around you, then you are to actually protect yourself. Carry pepper spray instead.

newbee- who says we won’t be able to give in to taivos? Will those violent taivos that you described exist? I have no idea. But our Gedolim have taivos and challenegs, so I’m sure we will too, even if it’s not the same taivos that exist today.

A neshama has no guf or yeitzer hara, so it’s much different.

And I think Techias HaMeisim is a one time event. I don’t think it means death will no longer exist when Mashiach comes.

Do you know that God exists? Is it not obvious to you? Does that mean you don’t have challenges? Just because there will be a giluy shchinah doesn’t mean there will be no more challeneges. There was a giluy shchinah at Har Sinai and we still had challenegs. Knowing that God exists and runs the world doesn’t take away our yeitzer hara.

I heard that that the “s” sound for the saf is actually based on the Teimani pronunciation (a “th” sound) but in Europe they couldn’t pronounce the “th” sound (like old Europeans would say “sank you very much”).

The Hebrew Nationals (I don’t want to take credit for that one, it was someone else’s idea)

There are other situations where some poskim would allow abortions like in the case of certain genetic disorders of the fetus. So, unless there’s an option only permitting halachically valid abortions, then I’d rather take the more permissive stance which would allow Jews to have abortions when they are halachically acceptable, even if this means more Non-Jews violationg issurim.

Joseph’s analogy to stealing doesn’t fit, because the few Jews that would benefit from halachically permissible stealing would be far less than the Jews who would suffer from being victims of stealing should it be allowed. By abortion, Jews don’t directly suffer if non-Jews violate the issur of having an abortion. But we benefit when there is a legal way to get a halachically permissible abortion.

I think I lean more towards pro choice on this one and I’m surprised that more frum Jews aren’t. Pro lifers want to make all abortions illegal, even in situations where halacha would allow it. I would rather live in a society that allows us to get abortions when halachically acceptable then that prevents us from getting abortions when it is halachically acceptable. It’s the lesser of two evils.

In a vacuum, I find it hard to argue that, all other things being equal, there is no ma’aleh to eating only CY from the fact that R’ Moshe was matir chalav stam (under government regulation of course), still says that a baal nefesh should be machmir.

Practically however, all things are not equal. Sometimes being machmir for CY will impose hardships on their family, will impact other areas of life (a lessening of simchas chaim can make it harder for a person to be a kove’a itim, or harder to control other middos like patience and ka’as, sometimes it will give a person an unhealthy amount of arrogance (holier than thou attitude). Maybe being machmir in this will make it harder to be machmir in other areas (like yoshon which is probably a more important area to be machmir in).

So yes, pashtus is, all things being equal, it is better to be machmir about CY. But all things are never equal and people have to speak to their own rov and make a personal cheshbon hanefesh to determine if this chumra is right for them.

Ben Levi- He’s disagreeing with it, as I do, because it’s pretty weak. The facts on the ground is that marriage is not equal to a means to building a family. You claim all the other cases are exceptions… well, when there are too many exceptions, you begin to question the rule. And while you say 4 Supreme Court justices agreed with it, the rest, the majority, seemed to say it’s pretty weak.

I am against gay marriage. I am disgusted by it. I wish it wasn’t legalized. I’m just being honest with myself, I can’t think of a good reason without invoking religion, God, or the Torah why it shouldn’t exist. The arguments made here are pretty weak. Honestly, I think if gay marriage wasn’t against the Torah, no one here would have a problem with it, despite all the non-religious secular arguments given here.

DY- What I mean is that it’s not the government’s job to enforce morality (at least in a government that’s not a theocracy). The point of government is, as you said, pragmatic. To make sure that society functions and there is no anarchy. Morality belongs to the rabbis, imams, pastors, etc…

We know from the Torah that gay marriage is destructive to society on a physical level. Chazal talk about gay marriage in reference to the mabul. But from those who don’t accept our Divrei Chazal as authoritative, then gay marriage is purely a moral issue. It should be legal as the government should not be legislating morality.

DY- Morality can change over time when there is no Torah as an objective source. And maybe one day society will give that argument. But nowadays, it seems that society understands that if stealing, or murdering, or hurting other people directly is allowed it will lead to anarchy and the breakdown of society. Bekitzur, the secular morality of today is, anything is moral unless you are directly hurting someone else. Stealing hurts the victim and is immoral. Murder hurts the victim and is immoral. Gay marriage involves two consenting adults and is moral. Without Torah you lack bein adam lemakom. You can still understand bein adam lachaveiro without Torah.

Here’s an argument:

We see from the ma’apalim how wrong it is to try and rush the ge’ulah. They tried to enter Eretz Yisroel when they weren’t supposed to. Their fate? They lost Hashem’s help in war. They were destined to lose. It doesn’t matter how strong they are or how weak their enemies are. The fate of those who rush the ge’ulah is the loss of Hashems protection and help, which will inevitably lead to military defeat.

We see from the victories of the 1948 War of Independence, the 1967 Six Day War, etc… that G-d did not leave the Zionists and that they weren’t rushing the geulah. Had they been rushing the geulah, they would have met the same fate as the ma’apilim, loss of Hashem’s protection and military defeat.

This proves that we are not rushing the geulah and that Hashem wants us back in control of Eretz Yisroel.

mentsch- It could be argued that the wedding takanos were for the purposes of the people who couldn’t afford as much and felt inferior. It wasn’t to force people to higher level than they were ready for, it was to help those who couldn’t afford much.

And, many communities did not adopt wedding takanos possibly for that reasons, that it’s not beneficial to force people to a higher level of tzidkus than they are ready for.

1) we aren’t gedolim or rabbis of communities that have reshus to give tochachah to entire communities, and certainly not to do it publicly.

2) the people we are referring to aren’t on this site, so the tochahcha is not addressing the intended recipients

3) and I think we can discuss the halachic issues of such a dinner, but the impression I’m getting (and I hope I misunderstood) is very disparaging at those who did partake in this meal.

I mean, with your logic, any public loshon hara can be rationalized.

mentsch- so then this exoctic halachic dinner was absolutely appropriate as many of these foods are probably a one time thing.

Daas Yochid- that’s exactly Newbee’s objections. And since these people are (and I quote) “very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)- “, pashtus is that dan lechaf zechus doesn’t apply, they’re obviously reshaim and avaryanim who are using the Torah to rationalize their bottomless stomachs, and we must assume that they are the lowest common denominator. Not only that, but the mitzvah of hocheiach tochiach es amisecha requires us to criticize them anonymously in a public forum that they probably don’t read because obviously loshon hara and possibly motzi sheim ra doesn’t apply to these beheimos.

Newbee- Let me be clear. I understand your point. You’re criticizing that they’re trying to pretend that their ta’avah is a mitzvah. I think that’s a very cynical and unnecessarily judgmental way of looking at it because you could just as easily argue that they are trying to turn their ta’avah into a mitzvah.

Newbee- so you’ve never eaten at a nice restaurant? you’ve never eaten anything other than bread and water outside the context of a seudas mitzvah? Maybe you’re just as bad as them!

That is chapter 15 in Mesilas Yesharim, most people have to work on zehirus and zerizus before you make them feel guilty over the higher levels. Not everyone is as holy as you are, and shouldn’t jump stages in the Mesilas Yesharim so that they meet your standards of tzidkus.

I wonder if peacock is kosher. I know there’s no Mesorah for it, but mistama it’s still kosher. We know the Biblical word for peacock because the Queen of Sheba gave peacocks to Shlomo Hamelech as a gift, and it is not one of the non-kosher birds listed in Yayikra.

Jewish Thinker- and there are many good arguments how they are no longer binding or how they were never binding. That’s why it’s a machlokes and that’s exactly my point. It’s a machlokes about an obscure Gemara that’s not even brought down lehalachah by the Rosh, Rambam, Rif, or Shulchan Aruch. There are many machlokes in halachah and hashkafah and yet none seem to be as polarizing as this. It’s ironic that the focal point of Zionism usually happens on Yom HaAtzmaus, where we remember how the students of R’ Akiva were punished for not treating each other respectfully. Calling a person who doesn’t say Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaus a heartless sonei Yisroel, or calling someone who does say Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaus a kofer or an apikores (I know I’m speaking in extremes here) seems to be completely the opposite the nature of sefirah. We are disrespecting two legitimate streams of halachic Judaism. Can’t we recognize that this is but a small detail in our Avodas Hashem and admit that there is halachic basis to each side? Can’t we discuss halachah without the poisonous rhetoric?

Joseph-

I guess I shouldn’t have used that terminology. I don’t disagree with the Tiferes Shlomo. I am clarifying what I think he meant. To argue the other side meant to be an argument on those who understand it differently.

His one example is that Klal Yisroel followed Moshe Rabeinu’s “absurd” military advice. I don’t know if Moshe Rabeinu was a military expert (I wouldn’t be surprised if he was), and he was using his Da’as Torah plus his military expertise to make a decision, but even if he wasn’t a military expert, if anyone can extract military expertise from their pure unadulterated Torah knowledge, it would be Moshe Rabeinu. I don’t know if that can be extended to any talmid chacham.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Tiferes Shlomo would agree that one is not lacking emunas chachamim if he doesn’t listen to the business advice of a talmid chacham who has no business experience.

What would be the category of the gedolim of our generation like R’ Kanievsky or R’ Shteinman? I have no idea. I have no idea if their Torah knowledge is great enough to be able to extract information that they have absolutely no expertise in like medicine. But I doubt that anyone other than the upper echelon of Talmidei Chachamim nowadays has the capacity to give advice in an area that they know nothing about, regardless of how much Torah they know.

Isn’t there a Mishnah in Berachos that lists examples of tefilos shav? If I’m not mistaken, one of the examples is davening for a specific gender of a child when a woman is pregnant. The implication is, is that once a woman is pregnant, even though no one knows the gender of the baby, it’s still a tefilos shav to daven for a gender that has already been determined, and it would be a neis to change it. By extension, I would say that seeing a doctor does not change the teva. If a physical reality exists, it exists, whether you know about it or not, and it would be a neis to change it, whether it is recognized or not.

Hakantan- “But since you mention it, and with all due respect, since your faith claims that the Zionist enterprise is “aschalta diGeulah” the RZ, liChaOrah, aren’t praying for the true geulah, but rather that it should be “completed” after its decades-long “start”. “

It seems that two signs of the geulah are the return of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (kibbutz galuyos) and the physical restoration of the Land. Unless you think that all of the Jews in Israel will have to leave, and that Israel will have to become desolate again before Mashiach comes, it’s hard to argue that the geulah has not started.