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To argue the other side, and I don’t mean to discount emunas chachamim in non-halachic/reshus situations, but I think it needs to be combined with an expertise in that area of “non-halacha/reshus.” A talmid chacham should not be dispensing medical advice if he’s a non expert.
Everything is in Torah, but only the greatest of the great are actually able to understand everything from the Torah. 99.999999% of Klal Yisroel, including the great talmidei chachamim, will not do well on calculus exam simply by knowing Shas, Poskim, Tanach, and Kabbalah.
A talmid chacham may be a talmid chacham, but if he is not an expert in medicine, business, politics, or even psychology, than his advice in those areas may not be the best advice… and not listening to them wouldn’t necessarily be a lack of emunas chachamim.
Isn’t there a Mishnah in Berachos that lists examples of tefilos shav? If I’m not mistaken, one of the examples is davening for a specific gender of a child when a woman is pregnant. The implication is, is that once a woman is pregnant, even though no one knows the gender of the baby, it’s still a tefilos shav to daven for a gender that has already been determined, and it would be a neis to change it. By extension, I would say that seeing a doctor does not change the teva. If a physical reality exists, it exists, whether you know about it or not, and it would be a neis to change it, whether it is recognized or not.
Hakatan-
I also find it insulting how you say “your faith” with regard to Zionism. The differences between a religious Zionist and a Chareidi are so small. They disagree on how to view the state. That’s it. It’s not one of the 13 ikkarim of the Rambam. Honestly, the haskafaic differences between religious Zionist and Chareidi are far smaller than the differences between a misnaged and a chosid. Are they two different religions too?
Stop calling a machlokes in hashkafah a different religion. The inability to recognize legitimate machlokes is disturbing and a source for unnecessary sinas chinam.
Hakantan- “But since you mention it, and with all due respect, since your faith claims that the Zionist enterprise is “aschalta diGeulah” the RZ, liChaOrah, aren’t praying for the true geulah, but rather that it should be “completed” after its decades-long “start”. “
It seems that two signs of the geulah are the return of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (kibbutz galuyos) and the physical restoration of the Land. Unless you think that all of the Jews in Israel will have to leave, and that Israel will have to become desolate again before Mashiach comes, it’s hard to argue that the geulah has not started.
Joseph-
The Rambam is clear that sheivet Leivi is exempt from the army and that anyone who wants to “join” sheivet leivi can by learning full time. But, the Rambam is also clear that no one is allowed to take money for learning. So if we’re going to use the Rambam as the basis that anyone learning in kollel is exempt from military service, than we should also discontinue the kollel stipend as per the shitah of the Rambam.
Little Froggie- you misinterpret lesschumras. He wasn’t saying scholars don’t cause benefit. And he wasn’t ridiculing them either. He was pointing out that there is no source that says Torah provides ABSOLUTE protection, and clearly, historically, it has not provided absolute protection… and he was explaining that to those who claim otherwise.
I don’t know if there is any religious significance to the State of Israel. I don’t even know if it’s really a “Jewish state” (I mean, an organization has to be halachic to be Jewish… I wouldn’t consider a reform temple a Jewish institution simply because they call themselves Jewish, are by Jews, and claim to represent Jews).
I celebrate Yom Haatzmaut and say Hallel beleiv malei, not because of the State, but because the government of the Land of Israel (in this case it happens to be the State of Israel) has allowed us to return to our land en masse… and through this government there is more Torah in Eretz Yisroel since the fall of Beitar.
Hodu LaShem ki tov. Me’eis HaShem hayso zos, hi niflas be’eineinu.
Israel cannot keep the Palestinians as permanent second class citizens. They really only have two choices, make them citizens of Israel or give them a Palestinian state. No one wants them to be citizens so there should be a Palestinian state.
However, Israel is under no obligation to give them the entire West Bank. Palestine has no historical borders so there is no land to “return” to them. What should be done, and I think what sort of has been done in the past, is Israel needs to offer them a state which comprises say about half of the West Bank carved out in such a way that most if not all of the Jewish communities remain part of Israel. Any Palestinians “stuck” in Israel would become full citizens of Israel and any Jews “stuck” in the new Palestinian state would become full equal citizens in the new state. And if the new Palestinian state would commit act of terrorism against Israel, that would be an act of war by a sovereign nation and Israel should blow them out of the water.
As long as the Palestinian leadership won’t take anything less than the entire West Bank, then the Palestinians won’t get a state, and the only ones to blame are their own leadership.
simcha613- not to mention that what Sam says is correct. There isn’t that much of a difference between the frum Modern Orthodox and the Yeshivish.
Joseph- no one is denying that there are Gedolim who were/are opposed to YU. But that’s not a reason to write off the whole Modern Orthodox movement. There were many Gedolim who were against the Chassidus movement and we haven’t written them off.
And many gedolim also said better to die in Europe than go to America and face that spiritual danger. I’m not here to debate whether they were right or wrong, but it’s clear that we don’t paskin like that.
EretzHaK- You answered your own question. They protested it because it dealt with it publicly. BUT, it was not trying to legitimize homosexuality as a way of life. They were trying to legitimize homosexuals as people and make people understand the struggles they go through.
DY- I think the reason why Sam makes that assumption is because most of the YU Yeshiva learn the Torah and the hashkafah of the yeshivish velt, something that isn’t true the other way around. It is more likely that a YU Rosh Yeshiva knows about both worlds, because they respect and learn from both worlds… something that can’t necessarily be said about the roshei yeshiva and the rabbonim in the yeshiva world.
Didn’t R’ Shach oppose Chabad very strongly? Didn’t the Gra oppose Chassiudus? When do we write off entire sects of Judaism because some Gedolim oppose them?
Hakatan- mixed events at yu with marrigable agreed singles is not the same situation of pritzus that you describe
HaKatan- I am no expert in R’ Lamm’s writings, but if he did indicate that, it was not meant halachah lema’aseh. He did not make birchas haTorah upon enetering a science lab. If he indicated that, he meant as a hyperbole to demonstrate how valuable science is, but it is not equitable. Even according to R’ Lamm.
Even R’ Lamm would not equate Torah with secular studies. He wouldn’t make Birchos HaTorah on Aristotle.
Here’s how it will play out- Bayit Yehudi, Yisraal Beiteinu, and Yachad will sit with Likud. The Arab parties, and Meretz will sit with Labor. UTJ/Shas, Yeish Atid, and Kulanu will be up in the air. Whoever gets 2 of those 3 will get the coalition. Since UTJ/Shas will not sit with Yeish Atid, whoever gets Kulanu will win.
147- I think it’s a bit extreme to say Bennett is against religious observance, especially considering that he is religious himself. It’s just that his shitah is, as well as the shitah of many Religious Zionist gedolim, that the Israeli army is a religious requirement as defending Eretz Yisroel and Klal Yisroel from our enemies would qualify as a milchemes mitzvah. I don’t mean to start a debate on whether they’re right or wrong, whether talmud toah should be a valid ptur or not, those arguments have been rehashed many times here… my point is, Bennett is not against religious observance just because he doesn’t have the exact same hashkafah as you.
KJ Chusid- Both bad and good can be attributed to medinah, but that doesn’t mean we can ignore being makir tov for the good. You listed some of the bad things, but you cannot deny the main good that medinah has brought: there are more Jews and more Torah in Eretz Yisreol than since probably the fall of Beitar. I think that is something priceless and we owe the medinah a tremendous amount of hakaras hatov for that fact alone.
Cloning is simply an extension of genetic profiling which in some cases is mutar. It’s like genetic profiling on steroids. And since steroids are probably assur, cloning is probably assur as well.
yybc- “And no one said going to the Yankee game is muttar. ” Who said it was assur?
Is a Super Bowl party really any more Darchei Emori than going to Yankee Stadium to watch a ball game?
Speaking of shomer negiah, I was under the impression that it is an issur d’orays (lo sikrevu legalos ervah). If so, how come Yaakov Avinu kissed Rochel Imeinu before they married? It is clearly derech chibah. I know that they didn’t necessarily keep the Torah outside of EY, but usually there was a reason.
Trust- Even our greatest gedolim had rebbeim. Is it possible for a woman to learn without a teacher? Of course. But it’s also more likely that they will misunderstand many things without a teacher. Same thing with boys. If you want to learn anything properly, you need a teacher.
Lior- like I said before, S”A also says that they receive reward for learning it. So you have to reconcile the two. Saying she is allowed to learn but no one is allowed to teach her is illogical and certainly not what the S”A meant.
And if I understand PAA correctly, he is saying that Chazal knew that in their time that it was bad, but since they understood that the reality can change, they refrained from making a formal prohibition. Hence, the S”A never says it is assur for them to learn or it is assur for anyone to teach them.
DY- Saying that a woman is allowed to learn but a woman is not allowed to be taught is essentially saying she’s not allowed to learn. You can’t learn anything, especially Gemara, without a teacher. If she is allowed to learn when she wants to learn, then obviously she is allowed to be taught. Saying otherwise is illogical
Dy- but the sh”a is not saying what you were saying. .. that it is assur for any man to teach Gemara to any woman
DY- I’m not sure if I understand. Why is it only assur for men to teach women certain subjects? If there’s a problem with men teaching women, it should be a problem in all subjects. If there’s a problem with the subject matter, than it should be assur whoever teaches it. I don’t get the logic that it’s assur for men to teach women only certain subjects.
Dy- so it’s like a tzniyus issue? Men can’t teach women but women can? That doesn’t seem to be what the sa seems to say.
DY- I apologize for making that assumption, but then what is the “classical” way of understanding that S”A?
DY- if the S”A truly meant that it is assur for girls to learn, why would the S”A say they get reward for doing it?
It’s not so clear from the S”A that women aren’t allowed to learn Torah Shebal Peh. Even though the S”A says that one who teaches his daughter Torah it’s as if he taught her “tiflus” (tiflus being something negative), the S”A also say that women receive sechar for learning it! Now if the S”A was saying that it is assur, the S”A wouldn’t have said they get a reward for doing it. The S”A just says it can’t be taught to them which I understand to mean that it is not allowed to be imposed on them, however if they learn it by choice, then they receive reward.
One also has to factor in (based on the S”A and the Rama) that a woman does not have a chiyuv to learn Torah which has no practical application, and has a chiyuv to learn Torah that has practical application (halachah, mussar, Tanach [Gemara in Megilah says that the only nevu’os that were recorded were those who’s messages are meant for all generations, therefore Nach is practical], etc…). It’s a positive thing to learn the areas which have no practical application (the S”A says they receive reward), it’s better than wasting time, but it’s not a chiyuv.
Based on this, I think there are 4 criteria that need to be met for women to learn Gemara:
1) They have to want to do it.
2) It has to be for lishmah reasons, not feminist reasons.
3) They need a teacher to guide them in the right way to learn Gemara.
4) It can’t come at the expense of learning those areas of Torah that are a chiyuv for them to learn, but it can only come at the expense of things that are reshus (learning secular subjects, going shopping, etc…).
I would recommend R’ Sobolofsky’s talmud shiurim on YUTorah. His iyun shiurim are very clear and comprehensive. He is one of the most popular Rebbeim at RIETS.
I have a similar question. I have class till relatively late a few nights a week near a community which has multiple minyanim for Maariv. Where I live there is only a minyan right after shkiah. I usually have a chavrusa at night, but if I wait around to daven Maariv with a minyan, I will be getting home too late for my chavrusa. Is it better to keep a consistent seder with my chavrusa and daven Maariv beyechidus? Or should I be makpid to daven with a minyan at the expense of my chavrusa?
This definitely seems strange to me. I mean, obviously we shouldn’t judge a person for not being able to daven with a minyan. He has challenges I don’t have and vice versa. But at the same time, you would think a chiyuv like minyan would be a prerequisite for someone who wants to learn (and presumably gets paid to learn) in kollel. A kollel guy who doesn’t commit to davening with a minyan seems a little off.
Why is there such a big tumult on what’s considered a miracle or not? Since when does something supernatural have to happen to say Hallel? Nothing supernatural happened on Purim and we would have said Hallel were it not for the reasons in the Gemara? It seems the requirement for hallel is yeshua from Hashem. In ’67, the Arabs were bragging and planning on wiping out the Jews in Israel. Supernatural or not, Hashem saved us from destruction. Isn’t that enough for Hallel?
Squeak- uch. This is the problem with many of the “anti-zionists” out there. They not only disagree with religious zionsim, but they are determined to take away all legitimacy. There are problems with religious zionism, but there is good as well. And the fact that you, and many like you, refuse to see it, and refuse to admit it, is very bothersome. Yom Yerushalayim, at least from the persepctive of the religious, is all about shevach and hodaah to Hashem. It is not kochi veotzem yadi at all. It doesn’t matter though, not only will nothing convince you that religious zionsim is a legitimate hashkafah, nothing will convince you that there’s anything positive about at all.
HaKatan- just because there was nothing supernatural doesn’t make it not a neis. Nothing supernatural happened on Purim either, to the untrained eye it was all teva, but we recognized that that was a neis nistar. Mainly because Klal Yisroel were saved from the serious threat of massacre. One can argue the same thing by the Six Day War. The Jewish People (at least those that lived in Eretz Yisroel) were saved from a threat of extermination. G-d saved us through miraculous, arguably hidden, but miraculous nonetheless.
For the record, while I don’t necessarily agree with your views on Zionism, I also don’t view Yom Yerushalayim as a Zionist holiday. I celebrate the victory from a murderous enemy, and the freedom of Yerushalayim from the hands of those who closed it off to Jews. If Yom Yerushalayim happened in the same way with a Goysih army (the UK defeated the Arabs and saved the Jews, they also took control of Jerusalem from the Arabs and gave the Jews access) I would also celebrate it.
“They clearly had better Daas even though Jabotinsky claimed to be an atheist and Schoenberg was a recent baal tshuvah from 35 years of living as a Christian.”
Charlie- I don’t know if I would say that had better Daas (whatever daas means, wisdom?)… I think it just means that they understood the political and international ramifications of the Nazi rise to power better. That wouldn’t surprise considering that they were involved in that world a lot more than the Gedolim were. I don’t think the Gedolim’s knowledge of Torah gave them nevuah to prophetically understand how powerful the Nazis are. It just gave them more insight what to do in a given situation… once they truly understood that situation.
Daas Torah is a talmid chacham’s/a gadol’s opinion of how the Torah and Hashem would want you to act in a non halachic situation. However, this does not necessarily mean that they understand the situation completely accurately. While many Rabbonim felt that Daas Torah was to stay in Europe, it could have been based on the fact that they misunderstood how powerful Hitler and the Nazis were. If they had a better understanding of the situation they may have felt Daas Torah would be different. (Or, on the other side, it could be that they did understand how powerful the Nazis were, they were never claiming it’s safer to stay in Europe, they were just saying better to die frum in Europe than to survive and risk assimilation by traveling to America or Israel.)
And, there is not one Daas Torah, it’s an opinion and therefore subjective. R’ Kanievsky, R’ Shteinman, R’ Schacter, and R’ Lichtenstein’s assessment of how Hashem would want you to act in a given situation are all Daas Torah, even though they probably disagree with each other on many accounts. There could be a machlokes. Daas Torah is not objective and there is not one “posek” who determines what is Daas Torah for all of Klal Yisroel.
In summary:
PBA- it’s better to reject the bad even if it means ignoring some of the good.
Sam2- it’s better to recognize the good even if it means accepting some of the bad.