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you are absolutely correct, and i thought i was pretty clear that i was not judging the boy. i was “judging” an adult who is accepting of the behavior. Our job is to refrain from ever judging a person and always to pt ourself in their shoes, but at the same time, we should not be lenient with the behaviors, our values or our expectations. My kids (and much moreso myself) are always messing up, making poor choices and acting inappropriately. I will never tell them, nor will they have the ignorance to think that bad behavior is okay because someone deserved it. it isn’t okay, and we brush ourselves off and shoot for a better outcome next time. But those behaviors need to be accepted for what they are, not brushed off because it was directed at someone who “deserved it”.
and as you yourself see, self righteously preaching sometimes has its place, tho there was no self righteousness involved.
gofish – we obviously have set very different standards of behavior for ourselves and our teenagers. According to Nisht that means I am a PETA supporter but really it just means that if it isn’t inside, it doesn’t come outside.
I have boys who have been in situations that have definitely brought them to a point where that would have gone thru their head – that’s not the same as being capable of treating someone like that. If you can’t see the difference, i cant make you see it. but your second paragraph answered your first, that fellow really was smart, and his behavior is a lot closer to what is expected from us as Jews. If you are more likely to flip a finger up then turn on a tape – find a different job. I know I am more likely of the former so I don’t even read about these stories let alone show up at the locations.
wow – I guess i was wrong about your being intelligent and wanting to defend and represent Hashem. Nothing in your answer even applied to my comments, which means you were just ticked off, as opposed to thoughtful in your response. enlightened about what? about telling you that you should act like a mentsch? Enlightened about telling you that expecting a frum teenage yid to behave like one EVEN when facing jerks? Enlightened because I thought that you actually cared about what halacha dictates our behavior should be, which doesn’t include treating someone like dirt because you can’t figure him out?
do you think that because i said a teenager on bain hazmanim (tho it isn’t yet) is still representing Gd and has NO business sticking up his finger at ANYONE EVER that that means I support PETA? how crooked is that straight line?
If you think it is EVER okay for a yid to act like that regardless of his age, time of year or who the heck he is addressing – all the more so if it is anti-Torah freaks, then you are about as krum as they get.
Enjoy your yom kippur. A little time off the computer might be healthy.
“You have some really mixed up priorities. “
you are too intelligent not to know that calling a frum Jew on the carpet for his behavior has NOTHING to do with condoning the maniacs on the other side. For some reason you (and some others here) express that a frum yid can say and do anything he pleases, no matter how infantile or inappropriate, nivel peh included it seems, as long as the person you target isn’t expressing Torah values as you see them. Did it ever occur to you that maybe that way of doing things is not frum either? do you ever think about how many people you may insult or turn off of your “type” of observance? Our gedolim don’t behave that way and none of our musser seforim advocate for that type of behavior. Yet expecting a frum Jew to act like a mentch EVEN in the face of an attack is messed up priorities?
If you really love Hashem and His Torah that much, then try defending His truth instead of condeming His other children. When your teenager slaps his little brother for bothering the baby, does that make the parent proud? No, it just gives him two children to have to deal with.
Please, for the sake of some anonymous poster who would love to see your less “charif” (though still passionate) side, move on to someone else. No doubt there are other posters who annoy you and can handle a hit or two.
gofish – didnt know that, thanks!
I used to have a chicken. I made him a huge wooden home in the den with beanbag chairs and free wifi. every night he would insist on sleeping inside my husbands empty sock drawer and insisted we close it. go figure. maybe chickens arent really feathered humans after all.
then the appropriate response would have been that you personally have witnessed no such a thing, instead of pretending that wasting chickens in a trash bin is not a problem. I don’t care who eats the chicken, as far as i know (obviously not much) Jews don’t waste food.
I personally have never witnessed anyone processing chickens on the spot but I haven’t noticed any cruelty either. at least not to the chickens.
what do you mean, “so?”
that chicken is supposed to go to tzedaka to feed families. That is the whole point. If it is sitting in the sun and has to be thrown out, how can you say that “this is the tarnegol that is going to tzedaka?” Do you have to pick on things just because he said them? What question could you have on that?
I don’t recall saying there were only three babies born but, regardless, I was referring to three babies born to one set of parents.
Another Mazel Tov to three babies born last night in Lakewood New Jersey!!!!! Mazel Tov – Mazel Tov – Mazel Tov!
If you read his comment, he clearly states that IF HE WERE A UK SUBJECT he would join.
I do wonder sometimes if you take things out of context on purpose or if you just get so excited that you miss half the details.
your OP does not match your title. those are 2 totally different points.
so i must work towards the state of nothingness towards this person/people, even if i have already fulfilled my obligation of forgiving. (assuming i have, that is) well separating the two goals has definitely made it more conceivable.
“yet also true that humans can ultimately determine another’s harm or good,”
I have learned much about bechira and while I have learned that a person can chose to inflict harm on another person even if that person does not “deserve” it, I have never heard it said that a human can determine another’s harm or good. Human’s are only capable of doing, they have no control over the outcome.
regarding your glasses, as I thought I already stated, I have no problem accepting that everything is from Hashem and that people have bechira to harm.
i want to add that i am very grateful for all the responses in this thread. i rehash this concept all summer and through Yom Tov (minimally) and have never found this much nechama. tho i obviously have much work to do, i have a bit more direction.
lebidik yankel – I am able to accept those two points as being true simultaneously. I am not sure I agree with you that he harmed me, NOT Hashem. Maybe he ALSO harmed me, maybe he used his bechira to harm me, but Hashem would have protected me if it wasn’t good for me.
moi – I have read his book and i have to say that i have used his books to guide and change my life. But this book doesn’t even address my situation, let alone council it. I was very disappointed. you are 100% correct in your point (his too) that forgiveness does not mean condoning bad behavior, but I think, from what I am learning from feivel and HaLeiVi’s words, that forgiving is not what we think it is.
Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. forgiveness does not mean condoning bad behavior. we are obligated to refrain from negative thoughts toward the person, vengeful thoughts, wishing ill, grudges or sina. Im thinking that being in pain, being cautious, severing ties, and keeping distance are not lack of forgiveness. Sure, that person still has tremendous “control” but I look at that as the offenders problem, not mine. I am not feeling a need to see them pay for their doings. I just think that because the damage was so intense, so severe, and is ongoing, it is not possible to heal from those wounds without time. I just don’t know if I agree with the concept that continued negative responses within me are a sign of lacking forgiveness, or middos, or not doing ratzon Hashem.
“your comment sounds like a condemnation of your entire field. Aren’t psychologists supposed to be able to help people cure their problems?”
in that particular comment i think he was speaking as a financial manager
i remember reading a few stories about Rebbeim who were really abusive/hurtful and years later were suffering terribly. In the stories, the bachur who was marred for life is either called in a dream to the rebbe or somehow beckined and he goes to face the person who caused him so much tzar and he says to this broken but not necessarily remoseful person on the brink of death – I FORGIVE YOU! and then the rebbe recovers and life gets all better and the bachur talks about how wonderfully free he feels and all his gezeiras are lifted.
i think those stories are awful and they give the impression that the Rebbe was cleared of his suffering because he was forgiven (so he was suffering because a grudge was held?) and that the one who was hurt, is suffering with childlessness or lack of zivug. it doesn’t make sense to me. What feivel said makes sense. (by make sense I mean corresponding to all the other things I have learned about Emunah and Bitachon)
A better ending (and who knows what the real story is anyway) would be that the bachur is brought to the ICU unit and he says, “I am here to save your life. I am here to give you an opportunity to ask mechila so that I can forgive you with a full heart.”
well if thats the case, i think i can manage that. It doesnt really change my feelings toward the person/people or the way i would respond to them. i think i always understood forgiveness to mean having no hard feelings, and i don’t see that making sense. I also still wish for them to feel remorse, even if i don’t find out about it. Ive never doubted Hashem would deal with the offender/s, I don’t believe Gd needs my input for that, my comment was more of a response to the last line of your first post.
MDG – it’s different when a person is involved in a divorce. Sometimes it’s a prerequisite. There are a lot of people out there who’s “get angry sometimes” and i find them pretty scary to be around. Lots of people could use it, only some people end up going thru it.
zush – that truly is a beautiful explanation.
Easy or hard, I am searching for understanding. And if you are up for the challenge, I am all ears and ready for change.
I would never want someone punished on my behalf and I don’t think I am being makpid on something. I find this all very confusing, if that is the right term.
Let’s say someone causes great harm to me/my family, damaging our menuchas hanefesh, trust in people and daily ability to function. They know they are wrong but have decided to go ahead with it all. Not only is there no show of remorse, but the situation is ongoing, perhaps others continue to be hurt as well.
As a “trauma victim”, there are psychological and physiological responses when the person’s name comes up or if they are seen. It is impossible to “feel comfortable” in their presence or trust them.
This is all separate from wishing them harm, telling others of their deed, taking revenge. All suffering has been accepted bAhava, the person is obviously just a shaliach of Hashem for great suffering and not acting on their own.
So now, what does that have to do with forgiveness? Wouldn’t the acceptence of it being Gds will fulfill the requirement of mechila? Why would you say that being punished for a terrible thing they did would be my doing? Would Gd say, “Gee i would be happy to let you off scott free for destroying someone but I can’t because she is still whining on about it”. Why wouldn’t their “punishment” be their own doing?
As a side note, I have studied this in many ways thru many venues and i still search for some point of understanding. Once i understand that it is so, i am confident that i start work toward achieving it.
i have heard that same thing many times but it does not make sense to me. it is true that if i stop harboring resentment or anger it will make my life better regardless of the offenders doings, but when someone causes you tremendous pain and damage, i dont see how that can magically disappear. Even when fully believing that all the suffering is from Hashem and for the good, that won’t stop your stomach from contracting when the person passes you on the street.
and i can understand why Hashem would want me to refrain from wishing him ill or cursing him or wanting revenge as those are all prohibitions, but why forgive someone who is not regretful, remorseful or even willing to admit wrongdoing?
im guessing your point is to correct a wrong, not repair a relationship. if so, give the letter and things to the rabbi you mentioned above. whether or not she accepts them is not necessarily your issue. you are demonstrating sincere regret by giving the things up and that is your hishtadlus. if the rabbi is willing to be in between, there is less room for misunderstanding.
and then move on.
” Maybe she should should first do some research why his ex is missing a nose, a couple of broken bones, full of marks.. Not really, he says he going to “manage” his anger from now on.”
if that is a joke i think it is in very poor taste. if it isnt a joke i think it is very unfair to accuse a person who took anger management of being physically abusive. there are very good people out there who have short tempers when under horrible stress, which a bad marriage tends to be.
anger isn’t something to overlook, but presenting all people who have worked on themselves as closet abusers can be very damaging to some very good people.
i know more than a handful of people who were monsters in their bad marriages and are wonderful people in their second marriages. it needs to be investigated, not discounted.
you seem to be missing the point. and a reality check. of course we have listed our expenses and our income. how else would we know how much we are short?
what makes you think we havent?
You seem to think that making that list will turn up some extra money. Nothing you are saying is really making any sense. when a person has 40k coming in, and 50k in expenses, there is no extra and there arent things to cut back on.
and guess what! not everyone lives in brooklyn. some people really need a car. and i am not even talking about myself per se, there are so many people out there who dont have enough money to make ends meet and implying that there are hidden thousands in their gas bills is offensive. perhaps they should stop using hot water to cut some extra costs and then put that $900 per year into a growth fund that will turn into $25k in 5 years. don’t know why I hadn’t thought of it.
i have mixed colors with whites when pressed for time and it doesn’t really make much of a difference the first few times. If you do it too often the whites will get dull.
I am very excited about my new washing machine that i bought outside of the budget abba_s laid out for me. it is HUGE compared to my old one and even though i am still folding 4-5 loads worth of laundry, i only have to wash about 3. really cool!
147 – well said
because theyre still posting in chat rooms 🙂
the problem with costco (or sams club) in regard to being economical, is that it gives you a cheaper price for name brand stuff or similar. it is still cheaper, often, to buy generic at a regular store.
thank you for that michshol
i do about 4-5 loads of laundry every sunday morning. I bring my laptop open to torahanytime and listen to all the new shiurim i missed from the speakers i like. i look forward to it.
during the week its a load or two a day of the things that cant wait so its no big deal.
i agree with HaLeiVi and yayin.
i cant believe you are all making so many assumptions about someone from one comment. If he said to her, “You know what, you sound like my ex-wife”, then that is surely an issue. but if it was in a different context it may not have been. And he didn’t say he dropped out of anger management, or that it was last week. What if it was years ago and he is a new person? I would almost be more concerned about a girl who tells two bits of a story to the CR and wants advice about the rest of her life. But then again, i am assuming this isnt the only place she has turned.
altho i think this thread is more for entertainment then direction, people need to be VERY careful before they shter a shidduch. especially when you are giving such definitive statements about an unknown situation.
forgive me if i tell you that i don’t believe a word you are saying. Gas money became a down payment? who paid the rest of your bills? I cant believe either story. If you really had 5 kids and less then $50k income then you shouldnt have had any “extra” money to put away, and you probably werent paying any tuition, which waits for no man. There is no “extra” when someone does not have enough income to cover their expenses.
“The money saved I put in a mutual Fund and 5 years later I had enough to make a down payment on a house.
I on the other hand am supporting two sons who are learning, want to teach people to be self sufficient and it isn’t hard, it just requires making a budget and delaying gratification sometimes. “
GROAN
“I hope I didn’t offend anyone.”
well you can keep hoping because you probably offended anyone who is struggling to make ends meet and anxious about their children’s needs but if only they would just “delay their gratification”.
147 – i cannot fathom the sites that haunt you but envy your ability to use it year after year to bring you closer to Hashem.
I am not sure, tho , why you are saying it is the yahrtzeit of bricks and metal, it is the yahrtzeit of the people who lost their lives in a most awful way.
goq youre a real crack up!
i get it that some people serve them because they like them, i was just saying that i didn’t know why they liked them.
RebYidd – the expense part is another great point. all we need is to start getting out of control at our brisim. (no, i don’t mean serving cold cuts is out of control)
thank you health – i had to laugh about that put-away-$100-a-month line. or was i crying?
Sheesh.
ubiquitin – so true. but still…they are so…gross.
in all seriousness, i didn’t mean that as a judgement as in “they shouldn’t be serving them” just wondered why anyone would WANT to.
if it is a halachik requirement to have meat, than that’s the answer. to say that it isn’t a real meal or special without meat is somewhat subjective. I don’t really consider cold cuts, no matter how nicely they are set out on the tray, to be special. I have often wondered how people can serve it for shabbos lunch. having different types of bagels, salads, lox cheeses, danishes is definitely special, not too many people have something close to that for their breakfast on a typical day.
minority opinions? really! You really do see yourself as the center of the universe, don’t you. <– rhetorical questions do not require question marks
Joseph – you are welcome to your opinion but there are poskim who disagree with you and anyone who follows a Rav who gives permission should do so regardless of your view on it.
My mother was given the psak mentioned by mik, when i got married we asked our rov and were given a psak like yours. period.
oh, I guess my response about tacos was out of place then.
there is no need to go to an ER or have a surgeon remove it. Im actually surprised you didnt know that.
my mother had one on her finger. My son has one on the back of his hand. I don’t think its called a tattoo when its an actual piece of the pencil and not its markings.
Mazel Tov to my littlest boy who got his first gemara today!!!!
I can see a manufacturer wanting a hechsher on the detergent to give the allusion that it is a “safe” product. I mean how poisonous can something be if it has an O-U?
“I asked for just one example and no one has responded. Not that means there aren’t, however, why would there be responses assuming there is such a thing when no examples have been provided. “
im not sure if you are being serous or joking. there are many brands with heschshers on them. I am almost sure tide is one of them. I can check and get back to you but you could probably check yourself next time you go shopping (unless that’s a women’s job :P)
FOR ANYONE ELSE who is considering alternative medicine for chronic illness – look REALLY hard before jumping in. There are many illnesses that can be helped thru these means WITHOUT A DOUBT, but extremists (of any kind) are not open to reality and can cost you your life.
My sister went to an excellent, highly recommended alternative medicine doctor (at the advice of her own doctor) in the hopes of help with autoimmune issues and severe headaches. The alternative doctor insisted she get off the steroids IMMEDIATELY as it is pure poison. When her dose was dropped just a drop, and very carefully, she went into liver failure and almost died. She spent weeks in the hospital and was put on the transplant list. It took months to recover.
Be very careful who you believe, while there are plenty success stories, snake oil salesman are still out there.
altho explaining is futile. You have already told me that two or three of my OWN personal experiences never even happened.
perhaps all the vaccines have made me hazy….
Do you care to share with me what he did say about your husbands condition? I think not
Sure I do. I think I did already. MY HUSBANDS DOCTOR is the one who said nutritionist, not dietician.
My husband is fine thanks to the doctors advice regarding diet and exercise.
Your communication is not the problem, you are in denial. I have spent many hours working with mom’s in denial regarding different issues in their children’s lives as well as pysch patients in denial about many things. I know it when I see it. and an appropriate name for my feelings is pity, not anger.