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Health
“Try suing H & keeping your kids into Frum schools!”why not sue then in scret supreme court, so nobody can find out about it?
1. No
2. No (See Ig”M OC 4:74 #23 where he discusses a hot water urn which like your hot plate doesnt have any adjustable knobs, nonetheless the water has to be “hot” prior to Shabbos He defines “hot” earlier in that teshuva as 160 degrees It wont get to 160 degrees on a hotplate in the 5 minutes before shabbos )“so I don’t know that it makes inherently less sense not to index for DST”
agree completly. Though again it isnt quite true that the minhag “always went by the goyishe clock” not all who follow this minhag do it that way as elaborated in my first comment on this sunject.
I grant tzitzis is probably the weakest example on this thread, perhaps not an example at all
Joseph
“ubiq: My point is that even the examples given are not examples of anything that there aren’t large frum communities that *do* keep them.”
Yes, but WE don’t. thus they are examples of “mitzvos that we don’t do anymore even though we technically coukd. ” I agree they are NOT examples of mitzvos that NOBODY keeps anymore. I’m sorry that that confused you.
“To be birchas kohanim biblical we need two kohanim which we might not have every day”
Mazel tov! So you have a 4th reason weaker than the already weak reasons described by the Aruch Hashulchan as “אין שום טעם נכון” I’m not so sure what that adds.NC
“No matter the reason, people who do it keep 6-7 on the regular clock; not shaos zmanios, not converted for standard time or daylight savings time, etc.”
This is true for some, not all. At any rate that deosnt change the fact that those who keep 6-7 doesnt really make sense (especially when you consider that if FLA adopts DST year round, so the the State governemnt will change when Mazal maadim is sholet, but only in their state? Not impossible, just strange.)See seferYisroel VeHazmanim for details regarding this minhag
“Unmarried bocherim still fulfill the mitzvah of tzistzis.”
Nu nu its a machlokes you and the MB 17: 10 who says regarding the Maharil הוא דבר תמוה דעד שלא ישא אשה יהיה יושב ובטל ממצות ציצית
If you dont like the example though I do understand.“Also, who said duchaning on weekdays is a halachah?”
The Torah
I’m not sure what you mean. It is a mitzvah deoraysa. there is a reason why Kohanim say ” …asher kideshanu bemitzvosov…vetzivanu levarech as amo Yisroel…” Ramabm lists it as a mitzvaAgain laskern I’m not saying there aren’t justifications for these practices the rema is one reason others include that too cold to go to mikva (Agur ) and that not meyuchas (beis efraim )
See aruch hashulchan 128:64 who says there is no good reason
והנה וודאי אין שום טעם נכון למנהגינו לבטל מצות עשה דברכת כהנים כל השנה כולה. וכתבו דמנהג גרוע הואJoseph
I’ll bet you are neither yekke nor sefardi. Thus those examples apply to both of us.Back ot keilim
see kaf hchaim 24 says after meis leis its mutar
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9084&st=&pgnum=135BTW
Some more thoughts1) The Remah says befeirish that kitniyos-oil can be used to light candles so obviously it isnt muktzah (its quite the stretch to say he means only chol hamoed and at nay rate obviously there is no difference between chol hamoed and yom tov regarding issur kitniyos)
The mishna berura seems to find the mere fact hat can light with kitniyos so obvious that , he exaplians the Rema’h chidush as being that the kitniyos can be mixed with water.2) Rav Yitzchok Elchanon was among the gedolei poskim of the 19th century and held derivatives of kitniyos example corn syrup as opposed to corn are muttar. Obviosuly Klal Yisroel did not accept this pesak but it seems funny that not only arent derivitives mutar but even belyios that are pagum will assur food (ie need to kasher keilim after they re aino ben yomo) . ITs possible, just seems funny
A few more examples:
duchaning in chutz learetz during the year.
non married people not wearing talis
Again, there are terutzim for both of these, though I’m not sure how satisfying they are.
“since the custom is based on when goyim see you pouring wine ( the concern of blood libel).”
Very interesting. I have never heard that before .teh magen Avrohom and MAchtiz hashekel sound like it is realted to mazzel Maadim which is sholet in sixth hour
“I talked to some people who do still keep this, and they said when the clocks change between Daylight Savings and back”
Me too. and they are mistaken. And that doesnt really make sense if it depends on mazel maadim which is the “straightforawrd” understanding .
Many chasisidim keep it
Iacisrama
I’m not sure why there is a question.
There is no question kitniyos is muttar behanah
you can give it to a sefardi
Most allow it for infnats (most baby formula is kitniyos)Food on Yom Kippur isnt muktzah (See Remah 612:11) So kitniyos on Pesach is more chamur than food on Y”K???
(chametz is muktzah on PEsach but not comparable as since it is assur behanaa it has no use)“we would be left to debating the virtues … the REALLY important issues facing klal yisroel ”
Again, I dont understand why does it bother you what other people discuss. there are (currently) 26,303 topics the odds that each of them will be a “REally important issue” are zero. This topic bores you you feel like you see “see variations of this debate year after year.” that is totally fine just scroll past the thread and roll your eyes. Why does it bother you that others discuss their “favorite Shabbos recipes for tofu-based chulent “?
Kj chusid
Yes I’m familiar with itIt is very inspiring . you dont have to convince us.
that said it isnt really a movie it is adocumentary nobody is “Acting” it isnt different thn a woman spekaing which while you amy not like it when women speak let alone become EMT’s., neither of those are “completely assur”2qwerty
“Most litvaks don’t avoid making kiddush from 6pm to 7pm.”Its a bit strong to call this halacha. And you probably dont mean 6pm to 7pm since that doesnt really make sense. 6pm to 7 pm worked prior to the advent of Standard time in the late 19th century. Since the advent of Standard time it remains 6-7 pm haalchic time or mean solar time which in NY is 5:56-6:56 (with DST it is 6:56-7:56). Admitdly not much of a difference but In Yerushalyim it is 5:39-6:39 See Yisroel Vehazmanim chapter 27 for details. (this is the most common way to calculate it the less common ways are to avoid during the first hour of shabbos regardless of what time is on the clock another way is to take the sixth hour after chatzos of that day (this is similar to the first more common method which takes 6 hours after the average chatzos )
A blanket 6-7 pm avoidance doesn’t really make senseI do like the bentching al kos example
There is no movie, nobody is acting
“if thats what you call it. ”
That is exactly what I call it. I for one quickly reviewed the relevant halacha to make sure I recalled correctly. Thank yu to the OP for bringing itup and Iacrisma for chalanging
You said, quoute “I see variations of this debate year after year. Is it really that difficult to forego kitniyos for another day or two after yom tov??”
It seems doubtful you were just amking small talk about difficulty of keeping kitniyos. It seemed clear particularly with your introductory ” “I see variations of this debate year after year” that you were in fact trying to shut down the conversation. I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.“Some posters are saying that yerusha isn’t done according to halachah is that in cases where people go to beis din?”
I didnt mean to say that Yerusha is not done according to halacha ch”v. What I meant was “spirit of the law” is generally not followed of course if a person didnt leave a will and a beis din was deciding they would follow al pi din and give say if two boys and a girl 2/3 to Bechor 1/3 to younger brother and nothing to sister. (I dont know about the legalities involved and leave that to CT lawyer whether the Beis din’s decision would be enforceable which I doubt)
But if a person asks a Rav what to do ahead of time, most poskim wil ladvise writing a halachic will and including the dauthger.
Joseph incorrectly says “the rabbonim do not recommend or encourage to not use the halachicly prescribed yerusha” I am hesitent t olist names as obviously anyone who disagrees with Joseph isnt among the “gedolei haPoskim” but R’ Dovid Feinstein said that the minhag Ashkenazim is to include girls in Yerusha. I have spoken to poskim chasidish and litvish who all said the same. I did not take a poll among “gedolei poskim” So I dont know what they advise I do know what ordinary poskim and at least one whom I would categorize as Gedolei Haposkim advise.
At any rate even if Gedolei haposkim protest, this cleary is an accepted practice among frumma yidden, thus making it an example of a mitzvah not (fully) kept)GH
“My point was rather simple…when in doubt, don’t. ”
That is a terrible approach. When in doubt ask.And even if you decide to be machmir due to a doubt or as an extra strigency of some sort, so you dont see the need to ask.. Using said doubt to try to stifle learning is an even worse approach than being needlessly “machmir” for yourself .
Joseph
“We absolutely do. The b’chor will as a general rule get a double portion.”
I dont know how to tell you this bt you are not correct, IVe spoken to several Rabbonim including chasidish and yeshivish ones and they all said the yadvise people who ask to write a shtar chatzi zachor, to give girls equal to boys and that the bechor does not get pi shanyim (though some said the bechor should get extra).
you are right, that it is a major shailah, and there are people who do it in ways that arent chal.
I do suppose yo ucan argue that the mitzvah isnt being “avoided” since generally a token sum of money is left to be divided up al pi torah. See Ig”m CM 2:50 where he requires $1000 to be divided al pit torah. See also Minchas Yitzchak 3:135 where he struggles to defend the prevelant minhag of “ignoring” dinei nachla and gving inheritence to daughters.“And Sephardim do Yibum.”
Are you sefardi? Neither am I. So WE do not do yibum. please stop hocking ah cheinek“You seem to be upset that Hilchos Yerusha haven’t been thrown out the window and they are still binding Halacha today.”
“When we say Shulchan Aruch we include the Rema in that terminology. ”
Yes and if not the Remah then the shach, if not the Remah and shach then minhag I get it. We follow everything in shulchan Aruch to the tee unless there is another shitah telling us not to. Profound.See the thread where a posek said kitnios kelim are assur on yom tov which is not a Rema (let alone MEchaber)
See Y”D 192 Shach s”k 4 says tody arent noheg like the Remah there (an admittedly random example, it is just the most recent one I encountered there are many, ok several.)What?
I’m not upset at all. the bottom line is hilchos yerusha are generally not practiced the the Torah proscribes.AY
Yes I’m familiar with your sources. I’m not saying there are no answers given, some being better than others. Kohanim Meyuchsin isnt quite satisfying, as you may know we allow these “non-meyichas” kohanim to make a beracha for duchaning, e give them Pidyon haben, it seems strange all of a sudden for this they arent meyuchas. I’m not rejecting the answer outright, I just dont find it satisfying, and Like R’ Akiva Eiger I find the question better than the answer.akuperma
“None of the examples cited are mitsvos.”
I have to assume you didnt read the thread properly. some of the examples include:tzaras- the PAsuk says “vehuva el hakoehin” There is a mitzvah asei if a person has a white spot to go to a kohein this is brought in chinuch 169. this is not practiced today.
Yibbum I’m not sure how you cna say this isnt a mitzvah
Yerusha – Mitzvah 400 “ish ki yamus uben ein lo vehavartem es nachalaso levito”
The Torah is quite clear how to pass on inheritence after a person dies. We generally do not follow this.BTW Joseph
When I referenced hilchos Yerusha. I dont mean like ZD said “If there is no will, then the State probate courts get invovled and it divides up the assets equally among the childre”I mean if a person is planning for achar meah veesrim and he askss his Rav what should I do, should I give my Bechor pi shanyim, my sons one portion and the girls nothing, or should I divide it “fairly”
(almost?) any Rav will say to give the girls as well and that the bechor doesn’t get pi shnayim. There are halachic ways to make this chal that have been developed over centuries. I dont understand how you can not view this as an example of a mitzvah that we dont follow.
“Ubi, here in Israel there is a hashgacha that specifies that it is kitniyot”
Yes but in the US there wasnt until recently the Star K has such a hashgacha called Star-S I’m not sure about the OU though. At nay rate 1) when this story took place the hechsher may not have existed 2) the product may not have been under Star-S making it “safek chametz.
Obviously I wsnt there Im just trying to make sense of what is reported in Rabbi Belsky’s name.
GH
“I see variations of this debate year after year. ”
Its first for me.” it really that difficult to forego kitniyos for another day or two after yom tov??”
1) Maybe
2) who says it is diffcult? We are discussing waht is muttar and assur. If it doesnt interest you, there is no need to comment, If someone is forcing you to comment blink so we know your in danger , we will send help“We certainly do follow Hilchos Yerusha. Especially when there was no will.”
Most Rabboniml encourage writing a will. and will encourage giving to girls even if there is no will. I know how much this must upset you
Joseph
” Do you think any Halachas that the Shulchan Aruch”sure. There are plenty. Though we may follow the Rema, or shach tc.
As to the OP the examples you list arent really “mitzvos”
Though thereare soem that we dont practice some have better answers than othersHilchos yerusha, we basically dont follow. that ist to say we dont follow halacha ch”v, its that we ignore the actual halacha, and instead use a shtar chatzi zachar give girls inheritence.
Tzaraas, is one that doesnt have a clear answer, as to why someone with a white spot, doesnt go to a Koehin, which is a mitzvah deoraysah.
PArah Adumah feels “bais hamikdashi” so we just assume that it is tied to the bais hamikdash, but it sint really“Based on this discussion among the CR poskim, why is that the suggested method?”
CR poskim? You mean like the Rema, Mishna Berura, Yechava daas?
Yes, it is better to avoid lechatchila using the same keilim. Tht ist the case you mentioned. Note: you accuratly quote the shemrias shabbos Kehilchaso as saying “one should TRY” ifnot practical there isn no problem whith using the same kli.
The part you left out is the footnote (181) where he writess that after 24 hours the kelim are mutar (without kashering)Are two movies coming out? The one I saw does known of the things you claimed it does.
“since Rav Belsky held that kitniyos is a safeik chametz.”
I’m not sure what that means. He held that corn was safek chametz? Or was the concern that a kitniyos product (like ketchup contianing corn syrup) since by definition it dindnt have PEsach supervision, so memeila there is a safek chametz. The latter is a possibility the former is not, though it wouldnt apply to putting corn in soup.
“please don’t overlook that things may not botul if they are B”EN, easily recognizable.”
There is no need to overlook that. You peek in scoop out the corn, and the rest is mutar and can be served at the seder. (again assuming it is batul note: brov not beshishim).Well it doesn’t HAVE to be from the toilet, but yeah thats the idea
” I can only guess that he was machmir for “bliyos” of kitniyos.”
Being “machmir” has to have some halachic basis. I i told you I tie my hand behind my back all of PEsach. Why? To be machmi, you woudl rightly question said “chumra”
Kitniyos is batal berov, the chicken soup was muttar to eat on Pesach (unless it was Rov corn, which is hard to imagine) and obviously the pot was muttar too. The Chavos daas says it can even be used ben yomo. but certainly the pot is fine after meis leis.
Obviously we dont lechatchila, add kitniyos to food even if will be batul, and arguably the woman in question had other soup available so even once added it was easy to eat other food. But that doesnt change the halacha that the soup and certainly the pot where muttar
Why would it be assur?
The Rema says “we dont eat”
The Mishna Berurua is more explicit “D’lo kiblu aleihen rak l’esor B’achilason” while he says this as opposed to having Hanaah which Remah says is muttar, it seems clear the issur is to eat it.\“The bottom line is, in reality, without recognition of an Absolute Authority, you have no right to impose your view of morality on me. ”
Except that your nice shtickel leads to the exact opposite conclusion. You correctly identify chazal:
““Ilmalei Moreh Malchus, Ish Es Rei-aihu Chayim B’lo’o.”
“If not for fear of The King, Men would completely swallow up their neighbors alive”.”Yes a leadership is necessary to create law and order. Note Chazal do NOT say “if not for religion men would completely swallow their neighbor alive” Because that just isnt true.
“Observant Jews recognize that the Torah is objectively TRUE.”
Yes , though that isnt the discussion.“The Torah view is that we only know that one is not allowed to kill, because Hashem says so in His Torah”
No that is YOUR view. The Torah view is the exact opposite. chazal Divide Mitzvos into categories: Eidos, chukim and Mishpatim. Mishpatim are those rules that we would determine on our own were reasonable, the classic example is murder (Yoma 67:. Thus Chazal explicitly tell us that there can (and should be) a measure of morality independent of the Torah ).“I’m not an expert maybe test the door knob for heat and if its very hot don;t open the door?”
You dont need to be an expert to know that. and As I said teaching fire safety is obviously important. The problem is during my home drills the door knobs are never hot let alone very hot. Are you suggesting heating up random knobs prior to the home drill? Otherwise how does that part of the drill work?
In schools do they heat up knobs prior to the drill so they can practice what a real emergency would be like ch”v? Of course not, that is because the point of a school fire drill is to “to get people out in a ordered manner, since people getting crushed by stampede can be as dangerous as fire.”
” what if g-d forbid they are not trained an open a door they should not and are met by a blast of fire?”
Ok i’ll bite
which door is the safe door and which is the “blast of fire door”
(spoiler alert my kids room only has one door…)I’m not saying teaching fire safety isnt important. I’m just not sure how a drill would work
I dont really understand the point.
If there is a fire ch”v get out of the house. period. end of drill.
you can throw in a safe place to meet, but that is about itA school with a large number of people needs to get people out in a ordered manner, since people getting crushed by stampede can be as dangerous as fire. but in a home with 5 even 10 people this concern just doesnt exist.
CA
“If same gender marriage (or partial birth abortion) is a law due to a non belief in Hashem then it’s a crazy law”1) It is hard to imagine that that is what was meant by
“these people are the greatest evildoers as they give reason for a lawless society.Without G-d,no conscience and a person can do whatever he wants.In that way he destroyed much more than the most infamous of despots.”2) I dont think partial birth abortions and same gender relationships are more common among atheists.
3)( borrowing off of another point made) the Taliban, crusaders, inquisition, islamic terrorists are all quite religious and all profess to believe in God do you believe that their Religious views led to an overall more moral society than that visioned by say Einstein or Hawking’s followers?
Todros
“I’m sorry ubiquitin, ”Absolutely no apology is necessary it is ok that you misunderstood the conversation at hand, I’m more than happy to explain.
“someone who denies Hashem’s existence is a criminal of the worst kind, and both a non-Jew or a Jew would get Missas Bais Din for it.”
Aside from that not technically being true. That isnt what limnos said , and is not what we are discussing. what he said was, and I quote “people are the greatest evildoers as they give reason for a lawless society”“It’s true that these criminals don’t hurt other people (directly),”
great, so we agree“but why is hurting Malchus Shmayim so small a sin in your eyes?”
It isnt” Isn’t that the ultimate purpose of the world’s creation?”
Its hard to keep up most of my rebeeieim have said learning Torah is the ultimate purpose, then the Gemara implies the point of learning is “shmevi lidei maaseh” Ive also heard being mikadesh shem shomayim among some other mitzvos though I have never heard that “hurting Malchus shomayim” is the “ultimate purpose of the world’s creation” at any rate I’m not sure what this has to do with anything“He,and all those with leadership positions who propose a G-dless world are well known by all.”
You live in a dream world if you think most criminals have heard of hawking. In fact I’d wager that there are far more criminals who profess to believe in God than there are criminals who are atheists .
As DY points out “We all know that some of the biggest atrocities have been committed in the name of G-d”
which is of course true (except for the “We all know” part).
Though “but without belief in Him, there’s nothing compelling morality.”
Histroy has proven that even with belief in Him there is nothing compelling morality either. and even without beleif in him social norms a desire to protect yourself ie. even if there is no afterlife r”l we are all better off if we all agree not to kill /steal/hurt each other.If I am wrong, I would love to see any evidence demonstrating increased lawlessness that in any way correlates with lack of belief in a Borei Olam.
“said that these people are the greatest evildoers as they give reason for a lawless society”
what a smart thing to say. Most criminals are without doubt students of theoretical physics , and of course history has shown us how until Hawking came along all of mankinnd was theistic which obviously means they were the noblest of people, not to mention Tanach is full of references to the utter lawfulness of polytheistic societies.
Truly a profound and obviously true statment. Thanks for sharing
Fantastic news!
I am offering service to make your Pesach more difficult!
I have three different packages:
the basic package we will hide 10 pieces of chametz for you making it very difficult to findwith our mehadrin package we will send someone to your house every day until Pesach to spread chametz in all the rooms you have already cleaned.
For the Mehadrin min hamehadrin package, t ensure nobody accuses you of chas vesholam having had an easy Pesach we will come by daily Make all your Pesach dishes chametz throw at any food you may have prepared.
Lets make Pesach hard again!the sad think is, I’m afraid I might get some customers
Again?
Ash
I’m not sure if you are still around, over Purim I thought of another example. (Inyanei deyoma)
The Yiddish word for drunk is שיקער this obviously stems from the Hebrew word שיכור (In yiddish would be pronounced shichor)
ודו”קThe most obvious answer is . In davening when we say plural “Refaeinu…” “zachreinu Lechaim..” it is obvious we are referring to “us” as in collective jewry. not “us” as is Jewish men if youre male and Jewish womenl if you are female. “Vetzivanu” like all such words refers to collective jewry who as a group were commanded in Tzitzis
Health
I need rethinking?
You said “Trump was misguided” you also said “Ok. Trump is right!”
Which is it?
Where there very fine people at the neo-nazi rally or not?“it’s known that Rabbi Tendler forged the teshuvah on brain death”
Is it known or suspected?
DovidBT
“An illogical statement. The facts are the facts, regardless of who else may be stating them”What fact? That Donald Trump’s comment was deplorable? I agree that that fact is the fact, but not all here do. And that fact is precisely what we are discussing.
I’ll bring you up to speed, you seem lost
We are discussing whether Donald Trump identifying some neo nazis as “very nice people” was an appropriate statement.
To me it seemed obvious that, that was beyond the pale.
Others disagreed. One fellow went so far to say that it was a bit to the left.To which I pointed out that David Duke, felt the comment was appropriate
So we are left with David Duke saying the PResident was on target, and a YWN comenter saying it was a bit leftist.To which I said ” when you are “more on the right” than David Duke it is probably time to rethink your position”
Please Let me know where I lost you.
Do you agree with Donald that some at the neo-nazi rally were “very fine people”?
IF not is that because you think it was a bit to far to he left?Health
“If I would comment – they’d be much more on the right!”
I love it
so David duke had this to say about Trump’s comments “Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa”
but our friend Health feels Trump was too far to the left.
Health, when you are “more on the right” than David Duke it is probably time to rethink your position
mentsch
“It is clear that the intent was to have an armed populace to counter a centralized standing army”Absolutely no argument there. I never argued that point. My argument is that today 230 years later practicly it doesn’t make sense
I would counter
1) Intent isnt quite as important as what is written (ask Scalia) it says “militia”Congress currently defines “militia as ” (Militia: Composition and Classes), paragraph (a) states: “The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard” (United States Code, Title 10 (Armed forces), section 246 )
Unless that definition is deemed unconstitutional a private citizen is not included in the 2nd amendment (although their intent may have been otherwise).
2) “And yes we have already rehashed the nuclear weapon and cannon question)”
We have , though I’m not clear why you believe those arent protected. (you said they arent but havent explained why not, and more importantly what right we have to ban them) and makes your postiion HARDER to sustain since clearly you agree that practicly speaking you dont actually want citizenry to beable to put down the government. So the relying on the “intent” is really a charade, as while true historically you clearly dont actually think that it is good practical policyYou also havent explained in practical terms how this intent carries out
who decides when the centralized army has become tyrannical?Is there any armed uprising in >230 years of US history that you support?
“Google “the week Hamilton solved America’s gun problem””
I’ve read that article and agree completely (those deemed unable of joining eg mental problems, criminalrecords lose their guns)“Who decided it when the south seceded ?”
The Southern States.
So yo u are saying they were right. and Lincoln was wrong in his for waging a war of Northern Aggression?Health
“It’s very simple in my mind. …
For the same reason! If the perp thinks he’ll/she’ll be killed because of their action – it’s a big deterrent!”Yes I get that. Though simple things arent always true.
and neither is born out by data.Also using your simplistic argument suicide bombings wouldnt exist. Of course the factors involved are quite different, but death isnt automatically a detterrent. IT isnt so simple
Mentsch
“t is clear from historical sources that the militia was to function as checks and balances against a tyrannical centralized army. ”Again, so how does this work. My friends and I oppose the tyrannical taxes opposed on us We are opening fire on the IRS. Are you in? This is our constitutional given right
In other words, who decides when the centralized army has become tyrannical?Is there any armed uprising in >230 years of US history that you support?
“What studies are you talking about?”
There are many
Here is the first hit on google:
DO EXECUTIONS LOWER HOMICIDE RATES?: THE VIEWS OF LEADING CRIMINOLOGISTS*
MICHAEL L. RADELET & TRACI L. LACOCK (caps are sic)“So why don’t you say Saudi Arabia is the Rule and Austraila is the Exception?!?”
What? Saudi Arabia llike Australia regulates guns (though not nearly to the same extent)lyou are confusing apples and oranges. This thread is about gun control. You argue that capital punishment is the best deterrence ok, and proof from Saudi Arabia. Fine.
Though now I’m thoroughly confused. If more guns deters crime, and capital punishment deters crime. The US should have one of the lowest crime rates of the Western World!? Yet it isnt so.
why not?