Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
LU – “My feeling in general on this topic is that everyone is different and everyone needs to do things the way that works for them, and people shouldn’t be so quick to judge the way others do things.”
+1
But I don’t think you’ll get much support on this from J et al. Tough crowd. And I include myself. I’m probably more tolerant than most around here and I still find myself occasionally being judgmental. We are products of our upbringing, for better and worse.
WTP, that’s a good question. I guess it depends on the context. If someone says “it’s night”, and I bring ample evidence that it is day, I am indeed invalidating his or her opinion, and I don’t feel it is wrong to do so. That doesn’t mean I should use harsh language, but presentation of the facts or evidence does sometimes invalidate an opposing view.
In the CR environment, there are so many absolutes tossed around, so many strident opinions and positions, that I think the more evidence based responses to these, the better.
On the other hand, there are many conversations here which depend on opinion or the opinion of another (a rav, an authority, a teacher or a posek) that aren’t expressed as supported by factual evidence, but rather by philosophy or world view and what logically follows from that world view. In that case, it’s my opinion that the argument against it shouldn’t be “that’s factually wrong”, it should rather be “that’s an opinion I don’t share, and here’s why.”
That’s certainly not how I structured my responses when I started here, but it is how I try to do so now.
Shopping 613, a real Jew has a Jewish mother or a halachic conversion. Period.
Beyond that, you get in to “my kind of Jewish practice is better, or more complete, or more ehrlich, or more strict, or more valued by HKBH” (which might carry some accuracy from a personal perspective) and therefore I am a real Jew and you are less so (which is simply false).
And that’s just between ostensibly frum or chariedi groups.
I don’t understand the need for measurement of any element of one’s Jewish life versus another Jew. Measure yourself against the goals and standards Hashem sets for you and that you take on the responsibility for. That is really the only measurement that matters. And the only judge is the one in shomayim. He knows who is a real Jew.
WTP, I mostly agree, and I do TRY in my own posts (thanks to DY pointing this out to me a long time ago) to distinguish between something that is my opinion (based on experience, education, assumption or even feeling) and something that I can assert as fact (based on evidence, statistical or otherwise).
In my opinion, in most cases, something backed up by evidence makes a stronger argument, particularly in the Coffee Room, than something that is not backed up by such, even if it challenges widespread assumptions.
DY Even within a Torah outlook there are elements to prioritize for optimal results. In this case of marriage, prioritizing communications and respect and being don lkaf zchus within a torah context will highlight the best possible way to have sholom bayis.
DY, please reread what I wrote and what you wrote.
“the numbers on divorce in the chareidi community are concurrent with any other community where social and religious conformity are prioritized. (Mormons, Amish, conservative Muslim, strict Catholic).”
To which you said you strongly disagree…..And then after I gave statistics, you wrote essentially the same thing.
???
The point is, DY, that what I think about the chareidi community’s abilities, what you think, what anyone thinks is less relevant to the discussion at hand than hard facts and statistics, if they are available. So, I did a bit of research.
a 2012 study in Israel concluded that the divorce rate of charedim was about 1/3 that of non charedim. (Greenberg, Buchbinder, Witzum)
Jewish divorce rates in general as reported in the US and Israel have fluctuated just above and below 30% in the last 20 years. So this would indicate a Chareidi divorce rate of around 10%, possibly a bit less.
From what I could find about the groups I mentioned, Amish divorce rates stand at about 0.3% (Barna) (do you think that chareidi rates are lower than that?)
Mormon Divorce rates were 6% in the late 90’s (Heaton, Goodman) so they could be a bit higher now. Still this is low and in line with what I wrote.
Muslim divorce rates (for all, not just conservative) were higher than 30% in the US but about 10% in countries like Egypt and Turkey, which while conservative, are not as much so as Saudi Arabia or Iran. Also in line with what I wrote.
Divorce among Catholic regular churchgoers was about 14%. Higher than the indicated Chareidi rate, but not incomparable.
So, DY, should I not believe my lyin eyes?
DY, given the absence of hard statistics and evidence here, and the overabundance of anecdotal assumptions, I will retain the perspective that the numbers on divorce in the chareidi community are concurrent with any other community where social and religious conformity are prioritized. (Mormons, Amish, conservative Muslim, strict Catholic). I’ll leave it to others to speculate as to why that would be.
No thanks, Karlbenmarx. I try to follow my ancestor the Mateh Efrayim. He was able to be a posek, support the learning of many, be an example to the holy community of Brody, AND build and run a very successful lumber business. He was able to make plenty of time to learn and to teach, but He never contemplated “not working too much” or thinking to “not overly work or exert ourselves”.
Ein somchin al hanes, neither in parnoso or in relationships.
Of course, ITFT I have negius. My point is that without negius the elements and assumptions that have been thrown around here are rank speculation. You might be able to overcome the hedge gazing, but you still won’t have a true understanding of the circumstances unless you (or a parent or child or sibling – and maybe not even then) has lived them.
Sorry, I respectfully reject your “and still…”.
Abba S – As I wrote, divorce is not a first choice. As I also wrote, communications is the key to a good marriage. I am convinced, though, that there are few circumstances if any where considerations of a higher standard of living or other considerations are more important than not living in a poisonous, warring, and unhappy home environment.
ITFD and ED, it seems clear from your posts that you are not speaking from experience, but rather from surmise, assumption, and confirmation bias.
I understand. That’s how most of us approach things we don’t understand. We reach back to opinions and perspectives that are self confirming.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that children DO NOT benefit from a couple staying together when there is a poisonous relationship between the parents. And even when it is less than poisonous, but still negative, the children see and hear and learn from what goes on. If you think staying married “for the sake of the children” is justified once steps have been taken to repair the marriage without success, please don’t involve yourself in any marriage issues. You’ll do more harm than good.
As for the notion that an external individual can accurately define abuse in a marriage, the notion is strange. Clearly there are legal definitions of physical abuse, psychological definitions, financial definitions, but there is also coercion, blackmail, badmouthing the other, intimidation, deception, abusive language, passive aggressive language, and a myriad of other elements that can potentially constitute abuse, depending on the context. AND NONE OF YOU KNOW THE CONTEXT UNLESS YOU HAVE LIVED IN IT.
As I have written here before, divorce is awful. If it can be avoided, if a marriage can be repaired, steps should be taken and counsel sought be it through a Rav, a therapist or a family member to save it.
But when it can’t be saved, even two good but imperfect people need to learn what can be learned, change themselves if they can, as no one else, no one, can change them externally, and they need to rebuild their lives, for their own benefit, and for their children. What the people gazing over their hedge or talking about them in shul or when picking up kids from school think about it is irrelevant, uninformed and either malicious or fearful.
Are you gazing over hedges?
I think that perhaps those who have experienced it have a good insight into it – from their personal perspective, but that is certainly of more significant value than rank speculation.
Though my experience was different than Health’s experience, and maybe we drew different conclusions, I respect his perspective on this, as he has the benefit of experience, as, unfortunately, I do. (Though I can’t say completely unfortunately. I have wonderful kids from my first marriage, and without the experience and personal growth I undertook after my divorce, I wouldn’t have met or had the tools, humility, and commitment that I brought to my relationship with my new Kallah.)
I don’t agree that people dafka give up because its now more socially acceptable. Plenty of people try for years to make it work, seek guidance from their Rav, seek therapy, and make positive change in their lives. It doesn’t always work.
To answer the OP, In my experience and that of peers who have also gone through divorce, the key element that was critical that led to almost all other problems was communication. Was it respectful or antagonistic? Was it constructive or destructive? Were all issues aired or was one party not communicating important or critical matters to the other with honesty and clarity? Was one dictating and expecting immediate acceptance? Was the other holding in things that ought to have been aired rather than fester? Were responsibilities clearly communicated to each other? Were both as parents on the same page and a united front when it came to dealing with the kids? Did they have each other’s backs when they were among others?
A secondary element related to communication is expectation. If expectations aren’t clearly communicated at the outset, someone will become disappointed and disillusioned very quickly. And even more important, if one spouse has an expectation that through their efforts the other will change without the other undertaking that responsibility for change for themselves, they will be disappointed.
This kind of photoshopping is a Pandora’s box. If revising the truth is OK in some circumstances, then it is OK in others. It is a slippery slope. Better not to publish a picture than to falsify it.
And its sloppy as well as slippery.
I once listened as one of the senior editors of a publishing company that puts out biographies (hagiographies) “history” and other writings about our past for the frum community (and which has been doing so quite successfully for decades) made three prima facie historical and geographical errors in a speech that was 7 minutes long, that anyone with basic knowledge of the time and place would know were impossible as described.
If “our” writers and publishers are going to assert a level of professionalism, they should maintain professional standards and the first of those is truth.
OP, you are NOT helpless. You cannot be passive, and expect things to happen.
If you rely on the shidduch system, be a meilitz for yourself to anyone who is in a position to help. Don’t expect they will know what you are thinking and feeling, or that they will even think about you at all, if you don’t approach them for help.
If you don’t rely on the shidduch system, you can still reach out to friends and acquaintances for ideas, introductions, or a place to stay for a shabbos or an event. If there’s someone who you know, or who has been suggested to you, you can PICK UP THE PHONE. It may not be what you’re used to, but its better than sitting alone wondering why you don’t have any prospects.
Hey, I’m still no fan of Trump, but from what I can tell most of what is being written about Bannon and his apparent anti-Semitism simply doesn’t stick. He may have other prejudices – he probably has – but to me he seems to be a smart opportunist who is leveraging anyone he can to advance a goal rather than a hateful ideologue.
Fair warning, though. My political acumen is questionable these days, as I was way way off last week. Who really knows?
LU, if you can even question that people and families associated with mosdos like Mercaz Harav, for example, and others like it are not a reflection of a genuine Torahdik outlook, I don’t have much else to add other than that I daven that your perspective becomes a reflection of ahavas chinom in this instance, as it so clearly has been in others.
Machon Maayan, Midreshet Harova. Darchei Bina a bit more right.
I daven that those who have taken the opportunity to post attacks on the genuine Torahdik outlooks of those they disagree with will have the hashpo’oh of respect for God fearing and Torah observing ahavas chinom swiftly, instead of the opposite currently displayed, r’l.
The Israel Source, Thornhill, Ask for Chuck
Israel’s, Thornhill
Pretty clear that the Rasha Yeshu in the Gemara lived generations before the one whose death was used by Paul to create a new religion.
Shiffman, Eisenmann, Golb, and several others can give a Jewish perspective on the historical Yeshu. Shiffman particularly comes from a halachic/rabbinic perspective.
Historically, it seems that he was possibly from one of the many families claiming descent from David (as every single leader of Zealot and other anti-Roman groups did). (I say claiming, not that he necessarily was, but its possible). It seems from some of the sources (questionable as they may be) which were not redacted by christian scholars leading up to the Council of Nicea that there’s a lot of charismatic but also political efforts in his purported actions. The Romans certainly saw him as a political threat – that’s why they used Crucifixion, not another form of execution. And the non-rabbinic Tzedokim also saw him as a threat.
It’s hard to see a real historical figure through the shadows and curtains of Pauline christianity. There are some primary sources such as the Nag Hammadi scrolls which didn’t get censored and redacted by the church and have a less obscured perspective.
In any case he DID arrogate leadership and DID assert a messianic claim (not the only one in the era to do so) without the support of any significant Rabbinic (Perushi) leader. Like the others, he did not fulfil the criteria of a Jewish messianic leader according to the conditions described in the Neviim. This made him a failed mashiach (like Bar Kochba, for example).
I don’t know of any rabbinic or halachic sources which tell us to honour failed messianic claimants, and to “honour” the manufactured man-god that Paul created for sure not, so I’d say its a pretty clear NO to participating in christmas (Which, until the 4th century, was a pagan holiday called Natalis Invictus, the birth of the invincible sun, anyways until the church decided it would be a good way to bring in pagans by conflating their holiday with Paul’s manufactured deity).
Health, I’m not going to respond to your insults with more insults.
It’s pointless. You can refer to me as a headlight or a chestnut tree. That doesn’t change the meaning of the world. And its not double talk. it reflects a complex reality. maybe you don’t live in one. Most of us do.
You ask about supporting a candidate who supports killing babies in the ninth month. Just because Donald Trump and his allies framed the discussion that way (effectively so – they got many voters to see it in their well crafted frame too) doesn’t mean it is accurate. Take the point in the second or third debate where Trump lambasted Hilary for supporting abortion until the last day of a pregnancy. She should have called out his absurdity.
An OB/GYN friend of mine told me “yeah, right. last day. We call that a C section.”
Here’s the thing. according to an AP poll in December of 2015, 40% of Republicans are pro choice. 40%. According to you, that makes them liberals. but according to stats from the election, 88% of declared Republicans voted for Trump. I guess they are liberals too.
Here’s another thing. Most people, especially politicians, who are Pro choice aren’t “pro” abortion. That’s a frame effectively painted by the Pro Life advocates. I don’t think they see it as a “good” choice in almost all circumstances, but rather a decision government shouldn’t be making. I’m sorry if that thinking is too complex for you.
So, MY frame for MYSELF is that yes, considering all of the elements that go into support for one candidate or another, I’d live with a candidate who says the government should not be making the difficult decision, the individual should bear the responsibility. And for myself, I choose life on a personal level, while on a social, constitutional level, I oppose abortion in principle as a form of lazy birth control. I support it when the mother’s life is endangered (as we know halacha does) or it is not viable. I have to say I am agnostic about it when the child is the product of an assault on the mother.
Oh, and I see Health that you had no response about actually DOING something to support a conservative cause. Like working on a campaign. I’ve actually had the courage of my convictions, and done something about the political perspective I believe in aside from pontificating about “liberals” and “a world long past”. Maybe you should try it sometime so you actually achieve some credibility in talking with those who HAVE done so.
Joseph – yes, I would have said the same thing about Bill Clinton.
Kfb, Health – I didn’t have the privilege of voting. I am neither a democrat supporter nor a fan of Hillary Clinton. Where I come from I have voted conservative in every election since 1991. But I felt she would have been better than him. We shall see. he won, he gets to prove us all right or wrong.
Health, I’ve actually gotten off of my chair and volunteered in seven elections for conservative candidates. Have you? If not, maybe that reluctance to actually do something for a conservative cause makes YOU a “liberal”.
If I had the vote and there was any other conservative/republican candidate than Trump, I would have voted for them. So, Health, you can throw around the word “liberal” as an insult at me or anyone else. It only reflects on your poor understanding of the political and linguistic antecedents of the word.
Kfb, I have a realistic expectation of politicians especially when it comes to Foreign policy. Its called Realpolitik and it is the foundation of understanding Political Science since the days of Bismarck. You should read up on it sometime. So I understand (but abhor) how someone could kiss Suha Arafat and take money for her foundation from Gulf states. I look to the bottom line of where her development and implementation of realistic policy was, and it was not objectively anti-Israel. It may not have been what an absolutist Israel supporter dreams of, but it compares well with many previous US administrations.
Health, it might help you to take a deep breath and actually read what is being written before responding. I wasn’t expressing concern for your kedusha. That’s your business. I simply said that all of the readers here had more of it in their lives than Trump, and so my expectations of them would be that they would reflect it more than him.
As for Gay marriage – I believe that the state ultimately protects the right and definition of religious marriage if it makes civil marriage defined and distinct. Frankly I don’t see that Judaism recognizes ANY marriage outside of our faith. of a man and a woman, a doorknob and a parakeet, or two people of the same gender. If it isn’t halachic it isn’t marriage. So as long as constitutional rights are maintained, call it what you want and don’t infringe on religious marriage.
Fair enough.
To the OP, it sounds challenging. I have had little regard for the President Elect since he was just a blowhard NYC developer and the fact that he doesn’t respect women, insults handicapped people, and wants to eliminate judges because of where their parents were born only cemented my estimation of him.
I thought he’d lose. I was wrong. A very wise person I know told me that more than being disappointed in the half of the voters who voted for trump, they were disappointed in themselves and the half who voted for Hilary for being so disconnected that they didn’t see the pain of those who voted for Trump. Very wise.
And in any case, he won, he’s the President, and he now has the opportunity he earned to do it right or not. It’s pointless to march and wail, and it disrespects the system that has preserved American democracy for so long.
I’m almost more disillusioned with the people here who supported him than I am with Trump himself. He didn’t grow up with the kedusha so many here have had in their lives.
This wise person also had one request of those – men specifically- who voted for Trump. sit down with your wives, your daughters, your mothers, your sisters, your grandmothers. Explain to them how you voted for a man who boasted of behaving disgustingly and assaulting women and feeling entitled to do it.
Tell the women in your life that you were comfortable enough with that to vote for him.
If you have the gumption to do so.
Yeah, mods, that’s what I figured. You might consider revising the offending 3 words and actually posting a deep, meaningful question.
If you knew they were offensive, you shouldn’t have posted it. Repost it yourself in a way appropriate for a website called “Yeshiva World”.
Hey, Joseph, don’t forget that a few weeks back you and I had a rare moment of agreement that we thought Clinton would win.
I know that I was wrong, and misunderstood the fervent desire for change after 8 years of Obama. I should have recognized it – its the same thing that brought Justin Trudeau to power after 10 years of Stephen Harper where I live.
The desire for change “trumped” other considerations, I think, and that is why he won.
Now, for those who are crushed, disappointed, saddened or afraid, take a day or two, and then get started working to achieve your political goals in an effective way. I think it all needs a huge rethink. You have four years to work on it. Get started.
Minyan Gal, still living in the great white north? good to hear from a lands(wo)man. hope all is well.
Unsocial, I have family members who dealt with the same issues. I don’t have an MD and I’m not a psychiatrist, but you are describing an anxiety disorder and one way of treating that is with individual or group therapy; another, for some, is with medication. So, if as it seems this is causing you distress, see your doctor and go from there. I wish you all the best in finding a solution.
Having tried to interact with her constructively, I concluded that she is a well intentioned person who could use some maturity and guidance. What she seems to have sought here was affirmation and confirmation of her perspectives and support regarding her insecurities. I do not recall seeing her take up any of the many constructive and purposeful suggestions that were made to her by several posters.
As is often the case, when someone doesn’t get what they want they leave and look for it elsewhere.
In any case I wish her hatzlocho in whatever endeavour and derech she chooses and that she gets (and listens to) the guidance that she needs.
I am going to try to keep from responding with anger or sarcasm; I hope that I succeed.
Mashiach Agent – If you are internet savvy enough to use this website, you are also knowledgeable enough to simply google and research before you make such rash pronouncements (twice!) not only questioning but disparaging the kashrus of God fearing, Torah observant people.
I don’t live near Niagara Falls or Toronto anymore, but I know the Chabad Rav Hamachshir; I know the caterer from Hamilton. I know very well the Rabonim, the board, and several mashgichim from the COR.
If you had bothered to look, you would have seen that the Niagara Restaurant had a COR hashgocho. And if you had bothered to do even a modicum of research, you would also know that the COR hashgocho has across the board acceptance in Toronto and the surrounding area. You would know it has the approval and cooperation of the OU and other authorities. You would know that Rabbi Felder, its Chair, and Rabbi Kerzner, its former Chair, have the confidence of the entire Frum community. You would know that its Rabbinic leadership holds the highest standards of practice. You would know that The Rav and leadership of Chabad are doing a magnificent job of outreach and have worked cooperatively with Kashrut authorities in tornot for at least the past 35 years.
Now, you may feel that if it doesn’t come from your neck of the woods, no hashgocho or protocol has any validity. And, it may not, for you. So be it, don’t eat there. But to have the temerity to be Motzi Shem Ra on Rabonim and frum businesspeople because you cant be bothered to do a google search, or becasue pas’t nisht for you in your isolation? Really?
I think the proprietors, the Rabonim hamachshirim, and the COR deserve your abject and complete apology.
First Zionists, Joseph? I thought they were the Jews who first sang Al Neharos Bavel, some 2700 years ago. Foolish me for not reading up on Satmar talking points. Chatosi Ovisi.
dovrosenbaum – he lost last night, and he could have at least had a draw. He was rambling and at times incoherent. He has no one to blame but himself.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he pulled out of the other debates. From his point of view, its not his chosen field of battle. The problem is, that he’ll continue to solidify his base, but that is at most 30% come-hell-or-high-water Republican voters. maybe he can convince another 10-12% mainly “independents”, but that still leaves him well short in popular vote and unless he gets Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and New York, which is very unlikely, he will get slaughtered in the electoral college vote.
If he doesn’t debate, he has a harder time reaching those he most has to convince. If he does debate, and he shows himself to be as underwhelming as last night, he doesn’t get those votes either.
Besides, he already agreed to the other debates. Pulling out now doesn’t reflect well on him with anyone.
He has put himself in a tough spot. The other bad candidate has surprisingly failed to capitalize on Trump’s ineptitude until last night. As esteemed Republican commentator Charles Krauthammer says, it’s a race to the bottom with these two.
OY
AY, I believe that there is a difference between stating a halachic argument on a halachic matter in dispute – where being a bar plugta is integral to the halachic process, as compared to objective recognition that advocating for people not to do what is necessary to save their families potentially contributed or led to their deaths are two different things. One speaks to halachic competence, and the other speaks to imperative influence.
I do not think one must be a bar plugta to recognize objective facts. And I do not think that recognition of objective facts disrespects or denigrates that Godol.
If a “godol” (or anyone else) were to advocate today that the sun revolved around the earth, Anyone with 11th grade physics could demonstrate the impossibility of that and hence have the “plaitzes” to disagree. On the other hand, making a halachic determination of significance and complexity isn’t something just anyone can figure out or even be taught – it demands years of experience and application as well as knowledge. And assuming that one has taken on that Gadol or Posek as their halachic determinant, arguing against them could be presumptuous, even if it isn’t quite disrespectful.
And I have to admit I’ve crossed that line myself. Though I don’t feel questioning the action or inaction or lack of communication of reasoning of a manhig ventures into the halachic realm, I could be wrong, and I’ve done my best to tone that down, though I won’t stop advocating for clarity, transparency, responsibility and no double standards. If I have argued halachic decisions and not brought support from a bar plugta, that’s also wrong.
Nothing I or anyone else does appropriately or inappropriately takes away from the fact that even the greatest gedolim are like us created betzelem elokim and are thank G-d human and fallible exemplars for us.
If Zionism is apikorsus, so is the doctrine of infallibility applied to our leadership that clearly comes from a tradition outside of ours.
Our greatest exemplars, Moshe Rabeinu and Dovid Hamelech, for example, made mistakes, even transgressed, and we are mandated to learn from their example. It doesn’t take anything away from their greatness.
Does it take anything away from the greatness of Rav Elchonon Wasserman to say that urging his followers to not go to the US or elsewhere if they could have escaped was a mistake? Absolutely not! He was a great bright flame burning brightly in a dark time and place. Saying that he, like others of his stature didn’t see the fullness of the coming tragedy takes nothing away from his lofty stature.
I don’t understand why people feel threatened by considering the notion that great people they esteem and respect are or were capable of making mistakes or of not addressing a changed circumstance with the keenness they displayed in almost every other circumstance. Each of us makes mistakes, transgresses, tries to overcome, and sometimes succeeds. I know I try and sometimes I succeed, sometimes not. We are all created from the same Tzelem Elokim. How could we really take these wonderful leaders as role models and exemplars if we didn’t regard them as human and fallible?
Ah, but Joseph, without getting into an argument about the halachic or hashkafic issues, If the governemnt funds the schools, it isn’t meddling when they have certain minimal expectations. Its ROI. Every publicly funded school system in the world works the same way.
Chareidi schools which don’t take a dime from the govt either above or under the table have a much better argument to make about setting their own curriculum.
Health, part of my work over the last 20 years has been in Jewish and Israel advocacy and in working with governments to safeguard Jewish communities in North America. I am at least as familiar with the threat posed by radical Islam as by anyone here. I know the real parameters of the threat. I think that both candidates do too, but the difference is in how they are prepared to leverage it to create fear or support their candidacy.
Rhetoric is important to win elections. Also, to whip up fear, to help win elections. But Terrorists, radical Islamic especially, aren’t beaten by a fearful or mob-mentality ruled populace. They are beaten by relentless pursuit, by the resilience of an uncowed, unbent, and unbeaten populace, and by an utterly ruthless policy of pursuing the terrorists wherever they are.
They aren’t beaten by telling Americans that there is a bomb inside every burka, or that all Muslims should be kept out. They also aren’t beaten by denying there’s a problem, or by giving in to the most terror promoting regime in the world.
Mr. Trump will deal with the threat to the extent that it attains or extends power for him.
Mrs. Clinton will deal with the threat as incrementally as possible because she is more comfortable with the status quo.
They are both wrong about it, but in different ways.
As I’ve said before, both are terrible. Still don’t think Trump will win. But do you know what’s worse than either of them? The craziness that’s taken hold of people. If you aren’t a trump supporter, you’re a “libtard”, and if you aren’t a Clinton supporter, you’re a “fascist”. The gullibility of people to fall for, and worse, pass on, the propaganda from both sides without using the brain HKBH gave them is astonishing. The proliferation of partisan websites and the click-bait they use, the fear-mongering they employ, and the ruthlessness of their persistence is actually frightening.
In decades past, I think that there would have been more rioting, more anger, and more violence than we have seen with this level of animosity. The only thing positive about the way this is being battled out on the internet is that it is acting like a pressure valve, and people are posting their anger rather than running out into the street with a baseball bat to pummel the opposition. And yes, there is ample precedence for and appetite for violence on both the right and the left.
Its not a pretty picture. And everyone will need to get along after this.
Reagan went through two cancer operations in office and had Alzheimer’s at the end. Churchill had a massive stroke and stayed on as PM for 2 more years. George Bush senior vomited on the Japanese PM, and the leader of the Canadian NDP ran an incredible campaign in 2011 where his party tripled its seats and became the leader of the opposition before succumbing to the Cancer he had been battling while running a successful campaign.
Not commenting on the positives or negatives of either candidate, but lets be serious about this episode.
BTW, uncharacteristically, Truump has been silent on this except to wish Clinton well. Either respect for 9/11, or smart politics, or both. Either way its a smart tactical move by someone who has shown tactical ineptitude with seeming opportunities like this.
Sparkly, I worked for them for 5 years in a senior management position. I posted detailed advice here and in another thread. Repeatedly.
Have you done what I suggested? If not, what exactly are you complaining about? What am I missing?
and yet, dovrosenbaum, in too many parts of our community, how many would be ok with a shidduch between their child and the most amazing BT or geir?
Support them but don’t ch’v marry them seems to be a common attitude. I’ve heard it, seen it, encountered it among my ffb communities, friends and family both in the chareidi and MO world.
What’s the point of half baked “support” if one is going to keep them at a distance?
Reuventree, shabbatons are just that, and participants may be without much knowledge of Yiddishkeit, but they are not naive. They don’t see the shabbaton havdallah kumzitz as the everyweek experience, but recognize that shabbat has a special quality that is heightened in a shabbaton environment In any case, No one at NCSY expects to accomplish kiruv only through a Shabbaton; it is a gateway to relationship building, Shabbat experiences in advisors and directors homes and shuls, more local group shabbat experiences, and Israel trips like their incredibly successful TJJ program.
Sparkly, I don’t know you but from what you’ve written here and in other threads it seems you have some things to figure out, some confidence to build, and some growing to do do. I wish you well in all of these. I advise you to DO, not just to think about doing. As it is, if you are shy, or not sure of your future, I think its best to hold off on the advising and the creating a kiruv environment around you until you have had more interaction with kiruv professionals in the real world. Only my opinion and I wish you the best.
Sparkly Please see my responses elsewhere. Call the city director or regional director and find out what you need. The CR obviously won’t have an answer to your local question.
Sparkly, as I’ve said before. Be proactive. asking for advice in the CR is useful to a point. You don’t have to deliberate it, or remain puzzled. You have to pick up a phone. Ask for the regional or city director. ask if you can talk with them or the appropriate staff member about being an advisor. Go and meet with them. Find out what is involved, and what they are looking for. Then you will know.
Being involved in kiruv and in Jewish life in general involves action. Go. Do. get answers.
I agree with DY. Sparkly does not seem to have the guidance of experienced kiruv professionals and mentors. These individuals are easily and readily accessible. Organizations like NCSY, AISH, NJOP, and, as seems most relevant to her, JLIC, are easy to find. Their local and regional directors are easy to talk to and a wealth of information and guidance. Moreover, these organizations already have resources, and structures, and capacity for growth that are beyond the means of most individuals. AISH has a global network of professionals, lay leaders and funders. NCSY and JLIC are funded by the OU, and have access to their immense resources, guides, and poskim. Why reinvent the wheel and waste community dollars trying to start something new to accomplish the same thing?
Sparkly, if you are interested in doing, not just aspiring, find the websites and emails for local representatives and directors of these orgs and make a call.
Sparkly, as I wrote on another thread which you resurrected earlier, Being an advisor for NCSY or starting a kiruv org is a great aspiration. But, and I say this with over a decade of volunteering with AISH and five years working in a senior position at NCSY, ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. Its about the individuals, be they OTD, or simply grown up frum but not motivated, or teens who are completely ignorant about Judaism but are interested in learning more. Its about either providing an avenue for motivated young Jews to become frum through learning, experience,and a welcoming frum environment, or its about reaching many young Jews with little background and providing them with the tools to make Jewish choices in their lives even if they don’t become frum.
It seems from your posts that you are also on a derech that you may not have found the end point to. That’s good! keep striving to find the best point FOR YOU on it. Rav Noach Weinberg, Zt’l who founded both Aish and Ohr Somayach once told me to convey that once a person learns something, they have an obligation to share it, to be a learner and a teacher at the same time. That may involve taking on more outward reflections of observance, or it may be an internal change that gives you more of a sense of completeness as a Jew. I wish you hatzlacha with that.
There’s a hebrew date app from an Israeli company called appstudio. They also have a downloadable megillah app and a brachos app. you can google them and download
LU, I don’t agree with several of your conclusions but almost all of your points have some merit and are made in an articulate manner without rancor. That’s pretty rare in the CR when talking about these subjects. Kol hakavod.
I do have two issues with what you wrote.
Considering the way that you describe Torah learning and army service as meritorious in their own rights, I imagine that one could find an ideal solution in a system not too dissimilar from the existing hesder system. There are indeed a few Yeshivot somewhat to the right of the usual dati tziyoni types which participate in such a modified program. I wonder, could there be any solution which would bring more achdus, more good hashpooh on Israeli society in general, more understanding than something like this?
My second issue is my only serious criticism of your post. You speak of a Secular Zionist government trying to destroy the chareidi world. Really? There are more chareidim, receiving significant government money and resources although not at the highest levels, commensurately proprtional to reductions elsewhere in Israeli budgets; more yeshivos in Israel (and significant public funding for many of them) and more people studying Torah in them than at any point since maamad har sinai; There are government funded streets, utilities, fire services, police, infrastructure, energy, water resources, insurance, pensions, public transportation, all of which the Chareidi tzibur makes use of every day. There is significant though incomplete observance of halacha regarding shabbos, kashrus and mikvaos, not to mention civil defense and disaster preparedness.
When one is out to “destroy” something, as you claim, it is absurd to do so by funding, protecting, supporting and facilitating it.
Moreover, your contention depends on a fundamental conceit, that there is intent to destroy and a rationale for doing so. Frankly, if you bother to speak to all but the most radical secular ideologues (who have been out of government for more than 20 years in any case), they are not motivated to hate or change or destroy the chareidi velt.
You think they stay up at night figuring out ways to harm chareidim? They have many other things to think about, some of which are important, like how to earn a living, how to afford an apartment, or how to be safe in a crazy region, how their children are doing or how they are going to pay to fix the air conditioner that just broke; some of which are not important but entertaining or amusing, like who won kochav nolad, how to get to the beach tomorrow, or what that new restaurant is like. They care about responsibilities and privileges that affect Chareidim and they feel should be equitable, and they care about their individual rights being respected and infringed, but beyond that they frankly think about you way less than you imagine. And the vast majority of secular Jews are simply not ideological.
The threatened existence or “destruction” of the Chareidi velt by “di andere”, the Tziyonim (most of whom these days are traditional or religious, BTW) or anyone else aside from those who threaten ALL Jews and Israelis is an artificial construct, a straw man. Why it is used and who benefits I will leave to you to determine for yourself.
Our direct expense to fundraising ratio where I currently work is about 12-13%. We work on a tight budget. We have a transparent process that is not only mandated to report to the CRA (our IRS) but also to the board and community members. When we need to spend money, we do, but no one is getting rich working here and we are always working to raise more to meet more needs.
One of the most ruchniyusdik people I know has been involved in Kiruv for over 40 years. He has smicha. He gives regular shiurim. I’ve never known him to say no to a request to participate in an event, a shabbaton, or an urgent need. He gives significant tzedokoh. He is a worldly, knowledgeable well known and beloved where he lives in Toronto, in New York, in Israel and around the world. He does tons of hidden chesed work. And he is always always looking for ways to share his elevated spiritual connection with HKBH.
And he runs a successful private investment fund, full time.
Provide for your family
Do acts of kindness and righteousness
Learn Torah within your capabilities
Be a true loving brother or sister to your fellow Jew, and a righteous example to the rest of the world
Seek and find fulfillment and joy in every mitzvah you have an opportunity to do
Make certain that your children value Torah Eretz Yisroel and am Yisroel
Recognize the Yad Hashem in your life and the ways of the world
Those are the ways to be “more ruchniyus”
Its not a competition or a hierarchy
All the rest is commentary
Mentsch – I’m not trying to convince you to hold my opinion. I’m also on the fence about it myself, as I said “might”.
I’m not defending orgs like you mentioned. The ones I worked on had haskamos and participation from some local Rabonim, were indeed elaborate and costly but not any more so than a top of the line fundraising dinner that is held in a banquet hall or shul hall like so many are, and most importantly I saw (and was responsible for budgeting) how the money raised was used and how it impacted Jewish life and Torah learning for individuals whose lives were changed.
I’ve never worked for an organization that outsourced fundraising to commissioned promoters.
As an aside, as to “gluttonous” fundraisers, Where I lived when working on these events, there is no charitable receipt for the portion of the event that constitutes a “value advantage” for the participant. This means that an event that charges $200 but costs $120 per person for food, drink, golf, fishing boat, etc. will generate an $80 charitable receipt.
Where I work and raise funds now, there is a significant proportion of the major givers who expect a certain level of recognition and stewardship that includes high end events once or twice a year. (And by high end I mean expensive but not ridiculous) The organization I work for is not in a position to jeopardize these gifts, but on the other hand we don’t use general funds to pay for them either. Either there is separate corporate sponsorship of the event, or the participants pay a couvert for the “value advantage” described above.
This seems to me to be appropriate.
Not my cup of tea. I might see the value if it was raising money for something, but it doesn’t seem to be. I’ve worked on events like Golf tournaments, Scotch and Steak nights, Fishing Trips where there was conspicuous consumption, but all of them were done for a program or organization I was proud to be a part of, doing good things in the Torah world and wider Jewish world. But stam parties for profit? I’d rather BBQ a steak and sip a single malt scotch in my own back yard, not on the Hudson on a party boat. So I’m not a fan.
That said, People have to take achrayus for themselves. The people putting this on, including a music producer who has done albums for several very well regarded Torahdik singers, will have to answer for it either to his commuity or to HKBH. The participants need to do a cheshbon hanefesh about the point and purpose, and if the $200 could have been better spent or given to tzedokoh. But they all need to make decisions as a sum of their education, upbringing and experience, and assume the consequences of their choices. If HKBH had wanted sheep, we’d all be in a herd eating grass. He wants his people to exercise free will, and that means sometimes they will err. The good thing about that is the opportunities it presents to make good choices and earn schar for that, or the opportunity to do tshuva over transgressive choices and grow closer to HKBH through that process.