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MG, r u in the crescentwood area? Maybe you should have a chat with Rabbi Shmuly Altein about starting a new minyan?
Blanket statements might be fine for some issues. but each child is different, and each parent’s circumstances are different. Some people, in fact, have to make decisions for special needs children (at both ends of the spectrum) as well as to take into account their lack of resources.
My goodness. It is a frum elementary school! How does one see pritzus in tzniusdik 8 year olds? There is a hafganah going on right now across the street from my friend’s house in Sheinfeld. What have the shomrei torah umitzvos families who have lived in sheinfeld since it was built done to deserve this?
Boom…pfsst. That was the sound of elu voelu divrei elokim chayim falling to the ground and crumbling to dust. so sad.
To all those defending the rock throwing, child intimidating, rioters:
1. The frum school is in a frum neighborhood that has a long established MO/Chardal/RZ community. The rov in the community was a talmid of Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Lichtenstien. It is not pushing in to a chareidi neighborhood.
2. The group that is doing the violence and protest are the newcomers, having moved in to the edge of the neighborhood more recently, putting the school in question near their homes by their own choice.
3. The girls in question dress in a tzniusdik manner by all but the most over the top standards. The mothers also do, and cover their hair of course. The fathers wear velvet, suede, cloth, and srugah kippot, and some wear black hats.
4. The mayor of Bet Shemesh is acting in a craven weak and unworthy manner in not cracking down.
5. The activities of the rioters is a massive chilul hashem, and is doing much to harm relations between two communities that have much in common and should get along. I have BT friends who live on the street and they are appalled and upset at the rishus coming from those they are supposed to look to as exemplars of yiddishkeit.
6. The families sending their kids to this school include many, many people who work hard and learn Torah. They send their boys to the army, and some of their girls do sherut leumi in hospitals and schools. They are good, God fearing people, and they are the backbone of Israel. I am horrified that they are abused and disrespected in this manner.
The problem we have with defining Edom is that over time our gedolim began to use ethnic terms that had specific geographic and linguistic references for Imperial and religious meanings. For example, Edom came to be defined as the Roman Empire, and later the Catholic church. Ishmael came to be defined as Islam and Muslims, even though that religion only came into being 1350 years ago. So any actual ethnic reference that may have applied to Edom, which disappeared as a kingdom before Rome rose across the Mediterranean, no longer held much value. But if you are asking who the people who lived in the Negev/Jordan/Saudi area around the gulf of Aqaba and north and east of it most resemble in linguistic and genetic terms, it would be their cousins to the southeast.
Actually, You should read Jon Entine’s Abraham’s Children, about Jews and DNA. You know who the closest genetic relatives are to modern day Arabs (those on the Eastern shores of the Mediterranean, at least)? Yep. Us. You and Me, and every other Jewish community whose haplotypes were included in the studies he researched and quoted.
Persians are considered part of the Indo-Iranian group of ethnicities, and they migrated from Central Asia. They are linguistically distinct (speaking farsi/persian rather than Arabic, which is a lot closer to Hebrew). The Arabs originated in the Arabian peninsula, and are a distinct ethnic, linguistic, and genetic group.
North Africans are a different story. There are a few groups. In Egypt, there was and is a large ethnic subgroup that developed along the Nile, but it had a lot of interplay with Phoenicians, Hyksos, Nubian and other African groups, so there is less ethnic and genetic cohesion. In the Libya/Tunisia area, there is the remnant of the Carthaginian pepoples, who were related to the Phoenicians and the Greeks. Further West there was a larger Berber influence, which came from the Saharan interior. But overlaying all of this was the massive influx of Arabs in the 700’s, which radically changed the demographic makeup of North Africa.
I agree that North Africans by and large describe themselves as part of the Arab Ummah. The modern Persians definitely do not.
Sam2, I beg to differ. During the time of the gemara (200-700 CE by most accounts), the area was ruled by a number of groups, but mostly by Persians and Parthians, who shared ethnic and linguistic roots. Megilas Esther gives us, at an even earlier time, evidence of a distinct Persian ethnicity, not least in its use of Persian language, for example “Achashdarpanim” ” Pashos” which are clearly what we today call satraps and Pashas which are Persian terms, as well as “achashteranim”, and other words that had no equivalent in Lashon Hakodesh.
Until the rise of Islam in the mid 600’s, Arabs as a dominant ethnicity were confined to the Arabian peninsula and desert areas nearby, if they were nomadic beduin, as opposed to city dwellers. Given that we are told the Gemara was finished within 50-75 years of that time, and in the preceding 400 years the Jews lived in Persian dominated cities (for example, Pumpeditha, a Persian name) I think they knew who they lived among. Also, when the gemara wanted to, it identified the area (as opposed to the nation and the monarchy), as Bavel, a geographic term that hadn’t been applied to any ethnic group since the fall of the first beis hamikdash.
By the way, those North Africa Arabs? where do you think they came from? The second wave of Muslim conquest that swept them to the Atlantic. They originated in the Arabian peninsula too.
Lastly, and most importantly, The gemara in Yoma talks about the “end” coming when Edom will fight Paras.
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Edom is interesting, because before it began being identified with Rome and the church, it was originally identified with nomadic detert and hill dwelling tribes of the descendants of Esav who lived generally south and east of Eretz Yisroel. In other words, Arabs.
I was told that the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l used to ask a question of those who talked about their anticipation and preparedness for biyas hamoshiach. He asked – “If Ploni needed to borrow $1,000 from you and he would pay it back after one year, and you had it to lend, would you lend him the money?” The answer was invariably yes, of course. The Rebbe then asked, “And if Ploni needed to borrow $1000 from you and told you he would pay it back when Moshiach comes, would you lend him the money?” That was his benchmark for full emunah in biyas hamoshiach and anticipation bchol yom sheyavo.
Tums, If the sheva mitzvos bnei noach have to do with torah, then democracy fits in to #7. Let’s say it doesn’t though. Red lights have nothing to do with Torah either, but you stop at them anyways. Again, IF you live in and benefit from a country with a democratic system, you are obliged by your benefit to respect that system, including its freedoms, in the public realm.
You can choose to change that system and its standards, but to do so, unless you bring either rule at the point of a gun or an act of hakodosh boruch hu, you need to convince the others you share the country with. It has been done before, it’s not impossible. Unless you remove yourself from the environment and the society and its benefits, you don’t have much of a practical case.
Well, Tums, that’s the point. To determine what the standards are in a democracy you reap the benefits of, you need to influence those who set the standards. And guess what – in a democracy, the majority sets the standard. So reach out to the majority, and convince it, instead of expecting them to follow something they are not exposed to with love.
It might shock you, MDD, to find out that I am influenced by dealing with what exists in the here and now, not by what you think my political leaning is. First of all, you know nothing about me, and if you did, you would know that the New York Times and the mainstream media in general, and left wing politics in particular, are the opposite of my world view.
Quid pro quo in a democracy is a matter of simple menschlichkeit. People who live in liberal democracies take their freedoms for granted, and are often very quick to point out where someone else’s freedoms should end, thinking little about the cost/benefit analysis of their own participation.
I believe that you have to deal with the reality you live in, not act as if the one you imagine is already here. That means you have to deal with the democratic process if you live in a democracy. If you want to bring a Torah Hashkofah, like it or not you have to give the electorate a compelling reason to vote for it, and you have to honestly tell them, if you believe it to be so, that that is the last election they will ever have. Are you prepared to do that? Do you think you will get very far?
Lastly, Dina demalchusa dina applies, – especially for those who don’t look so kindly on the Medina, unless the Jews are being persecuted for being Jews (not asked to maintain their hashkofas and chumras without forcing them on others, but persecuted)and have no recourse to law or legislation.
Fix – There is a solution. remove yourself from the street, or live somewhere that does not give its citizens the choice to follow halacha, and chumras, or not. Chances are that kind of place is Iran, or Saudi Arabia. If you want the benefit of any public services, the protection of the army, the subsidization of schooling and health care, or the right to vote at all levels, you need to realize that those benefits come with a proviso that you cannot dictate how others will dress if they are not in your home or your beis medresh.
There is another solution. Israel is a democratic country. So you have the right to organize, create a constituency, and try to convince, with ahavas yisroel and convincing conversations, a majority of people to accept your views on tznius and legislate it into law. No one is stopping you from doing that. Just be aware that others have the right, in a democracy, to disagree with you, and to organize to opposite effect. Truthfully, though, most people have other things at the top of their legislative (not personal – those should have Torah at the top of the list) priorities, like putting food on the table, or ensuring that schools and yeshivos and hospitals run effectively, or protecting the country. You know, small, insignificant things like those.
Oh, one last solution. look away.
How about this one, my favorite quote from my favorite writer.
“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.”
Ronsr – Galileo on your earlier quote abt intellect.
If you want to understand atilla’s role in European history, you first need to recognize that the Western Europe his hordes swept through were in transition. During the third through seventh centuries, waves of Eastern tribes were being pushed by demographic, economic, and climatic factors west from the steppes of central Asia into Europe. The Goths, Vandals, and many other groups encountered settled tribes such as the Gauls in areas that had been part of the slowly disintegrating Roman Empire. What set the Huns apart, in the mid fifth century, was their immense numbers and their implacable military tactics. In short, they overwhelmed almost everyone they came in contact with as they moved through Eastern, Central, and finally Western Europe. The only way to stop them was to bring to bear enough force utilizing the Roman style of unified command and action (as they perfected in the organization and use of the legionary system) instead of the tribal approach of each heroic warrior fighting as an individual. The leader of the weakened Roman forces, Aetius, convinced the King of the Visigoths, Theodoric, to unite and confront Atilla’s forces near Chalons in the heartland of what is now France. Their efforts finally stopped the Westward advance of the Huns (Thought Theodoric died at Chalons) , and Atilla’s hordes turned back east, eventually dividing and being defeated after trying to conquer what is now Italy.
Over the course of his conquest, the lack of logistical organization and supply eventually caught up with the Huns, as they suffered in their Atilla’s last campaigns from disease and starvation. Atilla died less than 2 years after his defeat at Chalons.
Military historians have speculated that the seeds of modern Western modes of warfare were sown in the alliance that defeated Atilla. It was the first post-legionary campaign in which a smaller number defeated a much larger force because of the superiority of their tactics, weaponry, and organization.
Haleivi, I have it as a kaboloh from my father’s family, which is descended from both Yocheved and Miriam. Mnay of the numerous families descended from them (Shapira, Treves, Horowitz by marriage, etc etc) will have passed it on to their descendants, and that is why it is so persistent, and present especially among Chasidim, many of whose dynasties are descended/related to these families.
1. Not to do full kriah at Alenu in Musaf Rosh Hashonoh, only Yom Kippur (from Mateh Efrayim, hilchos yomim noroim, an ancestor of mine)
2. Having one arm out of the kittel under the chuppah (no idea how this one started)
3. Just kiddush before lunch on shmini atzeres in the sukkah, otherwise not in there on S’A at all. (minhag mishpachas Rashi)
I wish you were right YIT. Unfortunately I have heard the same people who depend on these women to do a tahara on their niftaros, and do it with skill and expertise and knowledge of halacha, say they can’t or won’t eat at the house of these women, some of whom were the founders of the schools, shuls or even communities they live in. To me, it smacks more of laziness than narrow mindedness. Balabatim who have serious issues with halacha in business dealings aren’t scrutinized, but since you can see if a woman is wearing a hat or not, you can presume on her kashrus observance or lack thereof.
What I am saying is that presumption – especially when we are talking about marbitzos torah, or gmilei chesed, or the like – is a real shame, and the resulting embarrassment, which I have seen with my own eyes, is, we are told, like murder.
If it is permitted I would like to shift the discussion a tiny bit. It is clear that from almost all halachic perspectives some kind of hair covering is an obligation. Whether it is a wig, a hat, a kerchief, that is detail. Hair covering is incumbent. Like many other mitzvos, many of us are or were less than perfect in observance of it.
What I don’t get is the perspective derived from this that says if a married woman doesn’t cover her hair all the time she isn’t to be considered frum, her kashrus is not to be trusted, her kids are not to be played with, and her contributions to the wellbeing of the community are to be diminished, downplayed, or ignored.
Unfortunately, I have seen this happen. Women who have been the pillars and foundations of local chevra kadishas – for all, from the frummest to the least observant – for decades; women who have been moser nefesh for yeshivas and social services within the frum and broader Jewish community; women who have founded and run chesed organizations with no expectation of reward or recognition – these women have been marginalized in recent years because, in large part, they have not always covered their hair.
I have to ask – do we do this kind of cheshbon on those who are less than perfect in observing other mitzvos, in business, in bein odom lechaveiro? DO we investigate whether those we interact with observe shatnez k’das v’din, an issur gomur mideoraiso?
Can we recognize these women for the pillars of many communities that they are, even if they don’t measure up to halachic standards on this issue?
C’mon, Aries. Tell us how you really feel. 🙂
Anyone remember Gibbers resort and the Olympic hotel?
Wolf – some of the readers/posters here have a hashkafic problem with leading and educating by personal example rather than by assering, prohibiting, and ostracizing.
WIY – really? chewing gum in the street is modernish? I could understand if you said something like listening to an ipod, or texting, (on weekdays :)) or even ch’v talking to boys. That would make sense. But chewing gum?
please keep in mind, mdd, that in the mishna the halacha most often went according to Rav Meir. Many tannoim disagreed with him on many issues though. It is befeirushe there too. That didn’t make them apikorsim.
The source of anti-Semitism is that Hakodosh boruch hu brought morality and ethics to the world through his Torah and his people, and the world has resented these limitations since then. On a more immediate note, the reason Christianity and Islam have fundamental problems with the continued existence, success, and sovereignty of Jews is that our presence in the world is a constant proof and reminder that their supercessionist religions are simply wrong.
ZD, maybe you would have liked our July. temperatures hovered around 100 Farenheit, little rain, and not a polar bear in sight. Yesterday was about 88 F.
TOI, I suppose the modesty issue is the same as it is anywhere in the summertime. Unfortunately that is today’s reality.
I think there can be little doubt that even one who learns but doesn’t become a Rov or posek, as long as he is doing it lishmo, is indeed doing something for klal yisroel, in fact for the entire world. It isn’t a matter of IF something is being accomplished, but HOW MUCH. And what is the opportunity cost? Could this person accomplish more by learning part time and working part time? Could he then be able to give more tzedokoh, or end up supporting someone who would become a rov or a posek?? Could he take some of the burden off of his wife, and make a more cheindik environment for his kids to grow up in, thereby bringing the potential for a gadol from his own family in the future? These are the questions which demand answers, and I don’t think asking them is apikorsus, If it is, then you would be calling the Rambam an apikorus.
Ed Mirvish passed away in 2007. What some may not know is that he was a big baal tzedakah, and was friendly with many in the frum community in Toronto.
Depending on the time of year, Yorkville at Bay and Bloor is a nice place for a walk, as is the area known as “The Beaches” east of downtown along Queen St. and the boardwalk.
There are a number of nice kosher restaurants in the city, but unfortunately, the classiest one, 398 West, recently closed its doors. Try Marron or Bistro Grande on Eglinton.
Zahavasdad – please recall the provenance of Yiddish – it is a language of golus, composed more than 75% of German words. Not exactly loshon hakodesh either. Kind of strange that some yeshivos would see it as purer than english.
Itchesrulik, Even among the Ancient Near East etymologists there is a big question mark whether the language that we might consider loshson hakodesh as well as the precursor language to ancient hebrew, phoenician, minoan and eventually greek transited west to east or east to west.
I think the evidence of Torah dictates east to west. That being said, the geography and demography of the Mediterranean basin made the spread of these related languages quicker and broader once seafarers began to use it across a larger area, so it might look like it spread from Crete, Greece, etc.
Also, the OP doesn’t know or realize that during the time when Yosef was in Mitzrayim (as he quotes the Ramban, I think about Yosef) Lower Egypt (the northern part) was being invaded and ruled by the Hyksos, a nation that came from the area of modern day Syria. They spoke a language that was related to early Hebrew and Phoenician.
As I said, the kedusha of a language depends on who is speaking or writing and what is being said. Think about this. Amalek, yemach shemom, lived not far from E’Y, were related by ancestry to us, and were also nomadic. Do you think they spoke a language related to Chinese? Finnish? Or was it something like all the other Edomite tribes spoke – which sounded a lot like what our ancestors spoke?
People – Akkadian was a language spoken and written in the land (called for a time Akkad) between the Tigris and Euphrates, near where Avrohom Avinu came from originally.
The Torah (and archaeology for that matter) shows us that there were settled cities, culture, and kingdoms quite early on – when there were pretty much only nomadic tribes and a few walled towns in E’Y. Here’s a radical thought – Loshon Hakodesh was literally that – the language that holy men, like Avrohom Avinu, spoke. And he spoke the language of the people where he lived. As the family of Avrohom grew, so did the language it transplanted into the land of the K’nanim, with the geographic shifts (for example, words relating to seas and coasts, which Akkad didn’t have, being land-bound) and other words describing new phenomenon (much like the gemara uses words like traklin, pruzbul, achsanya, that didn’t come from Lashon Hakodesh or from Aramaic).
The written language we know as loshon hakodesh continues to evolve, all you need to do is look at the inscriptions on the rimon found in Yerushalayim from the Bayis rishon, then look at the dead sea scrolls (even within those, there is a range of slight differences over the 200 year period within which they were written – you can see a frum point of view on this from Professor Lawrence Shiffman) and then look at the cairo gnizah materials and then look at our modern writing – slow but clear changes in the writing, evolving, as all languages do. It doesn’t take anything away from the kedusha of what is written or spoken.
The OP asks – why is evil striking us? It is striking us because it is the will of HKBH. Period. If six months ago we had a responsibility to demonstrate more ahavas Yisroel, we still have it. If a year ago we had a need to speak less loshon Horoh, we still need to do so.
But I would say this. HKBH often acts bmidoh kneged midoh. As we have seen acts of one Jew against another, it speaks to the persistent issue that we have been grappling with for years. Not Kashrus, or Tzniyus, or what kind of concert is acceptable. No. on those bein odom l’mokom issues we have boruch hashem such guidance and such gedorim for those who want them. What we have not dealt with is the lack of ahavas chinom. the lack of respect for one another, and I mean both within and beyond the chareidi community. How can we bring a geuloh for an Am when we dont act like an Am? We strive for individual accomplishment of mitzvos and we ignore our responsibilities as a nation. If you want to read something in to recent events, let that be it. midoh kneged midoh.
Reading this thread, I have to ask, as I have on other topics – have we no confidence in the mosdos that two generations of gedolim were moser nefesh to create to revive torah after the Shoah? Are we to assume with a geder like this that we and our children have learned nothing in the yeshivos and seminaries we built and sent them to? Do we assume our investment of time and money and tears and sweat in their education was a waste of time? Because assuming that people will not draw upon the temimus and yashrus we infuse their lives with through their teachers and rebbeim is just that. An assumption it is all for naught.. And I reject that. I have too much respect for those who built our mosdos. I have too much respect for parents who were moser nefesh and always provided a good example for their children. If one want’s to make a personal cheshbon hanefesh that he or she cannot handle the situation – then make the decision for yourself, and then ask a rov to guide you to a point where you can safely participate in your community friends, and family life without worry. But consider the efforts of all kinds that went in to making you a ben or bas Torah. Do you really believe they were of no use at all?
I can’t think of a more effective geder than distance and anonymity that still allows frum Jews to discuss halocho in a constructive way, while including everyone in the discussion who is nogeah b’dovor.
Not surprising that there is a Litvishe Haavoroh and some crossover with the non-chassidish velt among the Bostoner Horowitzes. Its is somewhat of a family tradition, going back to Rav Pinchos the Hafloh and his brother Rav Shmuel Shmelke Mi’nikolsberg. Both were illuyim and inheritors of the Horowitz mantle of leadership and chochma from their ancestors, and both were Rabonim of their Kehilos and R’ Pinchos was an expert in Pilpul while R’Shmuel was also a Rosh Yeshiva. They were also among the earliest proponents/allies of chassidus, talmidim muvhokim of the Maggid Mimezeritch. This caused both of them, especially Rav Shmuel Shmelke, much trouble in their kehilos among those who were opposed to Chassidus.
The Bostoner dynasty are descended from Rav Shmuel Shmelke Horowitz. My family’s minhogim too are often chassidish, but have elements of a non-chassidish taam in them, as R’ Pinchos the Hafloh was my 7th great grandfather.
Last time I was in Paris was 15 years ago. I stayed at a hotel called the Windsor Opera. 3 star, relatively near (within a 15 minute walk of the major Jewish area near the Rue de la Victoire shul and 4 blocks from the kosher restaurants around Rue Richer and a few smaller shuls. At the time it had key locks and a front desk to leave them at, rather than a card entry (good for shabbos) Not a Jewish owned hotel, but the proprietor was very nice. It is still around and has its own website. google it.
Morah Reyna – five words with the same letter? That’s in Az Yashir., in Parshas Beshalach
-Amar- Oyev -Erdof -Asig -Achalek Shallal
On The ball –
Yaakov employed by Lavan as a shepherd (Rachel, Leah)
Moshe employed by Yisro to tend his flock Shemos 3:1 (Tziporah)
David Hamelech Employed by Shaul Hamelech as a musician and a Warrior Shmuel Alef, 18:20(Michal)
First, I’d be much more likely to take them to a library than a bookstore. I spent a lot of time in the public library – I inhaled books, my mother a’h used to say. So too did most of the yeshivishe and frum velt in my neighborhood. at the time, it was not only considered appropriate, it was encouraged. Not too many people had televisions, and of the homes that did, responsible parents didn’t let their kids watch much at all. Movies were a rarity, and kids played outside. (I’m not talking about the 40,s, I’m talking about the 70’s).
I’m certain that the quality of some of the books in the library has declined, in both appropriateness and simple style, but the vast majority of materials available for kids, taken by a parent who can scan books before they are taken out, is still quite good.
Bookstores, especially the big chains like B&N, cater to a broader market, and carry what sells. If inappropriate sells, they will carry it. So I’d be very careful, and maybe go if you need to without the kids.
HOWEVER, let’s not make the assumption that every thing that is not heilige is evil, as some posters here have explicitly stated. There is a huge amount of knowledge in the world that is neither pure nor evil. Is there something evil about calculus? trigonometry? chemistry? instrumental classical music? landscape paintings? a children’s story about a big red dog? Of course not.
We do not live in a dualistic world, like the Zoroastrians or the Gnostics believe. We live within the creation of the Aibishter, who is the source of everything, and he gave us the knowledge to distinguish between the heilige, the evil, and everything in between that we have to use our seichel, our judgement, and our Torah education to assess and determine its worthiness.
It exists in Canada, with even stricter guidelines than the USDA and the principal machshirim in Canada support it.
Dina Demalchusa Dina applies only in a country where the laws are neither arbitrary nor cruel, like they were in post-reconquista Spain, and that it does not apply to yaharog veal yaavor mitzvos, like bowing to a cross.
You also posted an encouragement to lie to a judge in a country where the government is neither cruel nor arbitrary. If you did so b’meizid, it is a clear aveirah, a violation of dina demalchusa dina, among other issurim.
Pac Man, MDD, perhaps it is the shitah of the Arizal that they didn’t dance, but chazal say they did in gemoro Tannis daf lamed alef omud alef.
Both in the mishna and in the gemoro, neither Rashi nor Tosefos brings any indication that the young women of Jerusalem were doing anything other than dancing. (I just looked to be sure).
I’ve learned the Meiri’s interpretation of this in the past, and he doesn’t indicate it was anything other than dancing either. In fact, if I recall correctly, he says they would dance and call out to the prospective husbands ‘kfi ma shemargishos beotzman’ according to how they felt about themselves in that situation.
The Chasam Sofer in Toras Moshe on Parshas Veyeilech also indicates they were dancing, as the gemoro says.
Some say that because of the nearness to the deprivation of Tisha B’av, there was little chashash of losing self control. (Brought in Sefer Hatodo’oh).
So – we have mishna, gemoro, rishonim and achronim indicating that they were indeed dancing. Now, I’m not going to say this means that everyone should interpret it that all simcha dancing should happen without a mechitzah – obviously. But I will point out the clear kal vechomer that if seeing women dance was permitted for the purpose of shiduchin, seeing them eat would seem to be obviously mutar.
Edited
We are having a discussion about general politics and standing for election and voting, and no one has brought in the applicability of Dina Demalchusa Dina? If a country that governs with intended yashrus instead of arbitrariness and cruelty permits, encourages, and expects women to vote and run for public office, and the position is not specifically for a Jewish woman as head of a kehila or a shul, where is the strength of the argument not to allow it?
Here are a few more questions, though, beyond the DMD issue.
If a shul or kehila has acute challenges, and the best possible candidate to lead them through these challenges was a woman with the professional and personal qualifications and experience to save the kehila or shul, would you let it fail or would you find a way for her to lead?
Rabbi Cohen, with all due respect, your understanding of responsibility and authority is not very deep. B’dieved “allowing” women to vote? Anyone voted into office works FOR the electorate, and thus the electorate is in a much higher position of authority. Who controls a thing? He (or she) who has the power to destroy it. The electorate makes or breaks political careers, so the responsibility of voting, which the Rabonim matired for women, is a much higher level of leadership.
mdd, please consider first that the Ramban (I think he mentions this in his explanation of hanistarim in parshas Netzavim). distinguished between a “transgression” of which the perpetrator was totally unaware, and a shogeg, which was done intentionally without knowing the seriousness or even if it was assur.
Also, for a different take, see this post by Chaim B. from the Divrei Chaim Blog, from last November.
“lav she’ain bo ma’aseh b’shogeg
Not pashut that she was a shogeg.
Shlishi, really, she is sinning? She had no idea it had even happened. Not even a shogeg, and certainly not a meizid. And really, Shlishi, why use a christian concept like “sin”? When a Jew is oiver a Lo Taase, it is a transgression, not a sin. One is an action and the other is a state of being that is foreign to Judaism. And the person who saw it? Sinning? He turned away and considered a way to help the person without being oiver Hamalbin pnei chaveiro brabim. Transgressing would have been ch’v continuing to look. And no, before you suggest it, wearing a burka is not a k’dai alternative for Jewish women.
First: I am not a public school teacher. I have in the past taught in chareidi schools, consulted in public schools, catholic schools, M.O schools, and other Jewish schools. I’ve supervised educational staff working in small Jewish communities. And tell me, please. Does a public elementary school in, say, rural Nebraska in the middle of the bible belt have a gang problem? Because you said it did by tarring all with the same brush.
Next, I am not a hired union pr thug – in fact I will state very clearly for the record that my politics are conservative and I am not a fan of unions in general and teachers unions in particular.
I’m writing what I know and have seen in this forum davka because I’d rather share it with people who are nogeah b’dovor and might recognize the reality – and then do something about it (not loshon horah, not only because I didn’t identify what schools, when or where, but also because it is given over in a spirit of tikun) than make a mockery of the whole yeshiva system befarhesia, as you, Grandmaster, do of the public system. There are many excellent yeshivos, but there are also too many which desperately need guidance, chizuk, and tikun.
Next, I mirrored your comments. You denigrated a system serving a population of 330 million in the US alone, by referencing serious problems that apply to a small fraction of the schools in the US. I gave examples from what I know. I stood at the desk of the kid who was terrified, and watched him shrink away from me in dread when I asked him to answer a question on the board. This particular incident happened 21 years ago, but I still remember his name and his face, the haunted eyes and the bent glasses, and his unfortunate story which I learned from other teachers who had taught him before. How dare you call his pain sheker!
I also know that the very best, most respectful, most cheindik student I ever encountered was at the same school. He wasn’t a genius, but he always worked hard, always was the first to help, always treated his teachers and his peers with respect, and always had a smile on his face. I know his parents, and he is cut from the wonderful cloth that represents all that is beautiful about Chareidi communities.
Metro, you are absolutely right about my use of the word systemic. I was writing so fast that I used a word I was thinking of to describe the problems yeshivos must address (systemic) instead of one describing this boy’s modus operandi (systematic). Thank you for the correction. By the way, To show you and any other reader that I’m not saying the whole system is completely rotten, the bochur who was bullying eventually got older and wiser, changed his behavior, and became a real ben torah. Someone got through to him within the yeshiva world. Sorry for the cadence of my words, if it was distracting. I tend to write that way when I’m passionate about the subject.
Finally, I don’t intend to conflate my discussion about being am hanivchar with criticism of some problems in the yeshiva world.
I may not cause you to change your mind, and that is your prerogative, grandmaster. But perhaps there are those reading who might look at the discussion as an opportunity to reflect on what the eibishter expects of us AS an am hanivchar, rather than using the term as a mark of aristocracy.
You have demonstrated a complete inability to address a single issue I raised by referencing personal experience, statistics, or the experience of someone else who has worked in the system. You insist on ad hominem accusations of lying. Do you even get the point of a coffee room like this?
Nothing disingenuous. And, by the way, i responded to Grandmaster’s comments, not the other way around. I’m just sick and tired of hearing that things are OK, great, no problem, and by the way the andere are behaymes, when in fact we have real issues and in fact some of those andere are doing a good job of educating their children.
Ask an honest yeshiva administrator – better yet a retired one who doesn’t have to worry about losing a job – about the issues I raised, or best, a woman who has worked as a secretary in one of our yeshivos. THey see everything that happens.
Wolf, Charlie, should I even bother to continue postiing in this thread? I know that agree or disagree, you actually read what people write. Am I wasting my time with grandmaster?