OK, mods, I’ll put it another way, without accusation. How can anyone see the manner in which HKBH has acted and used and blessed not just am yisroel but the world through the State of Israel and still consider it the wellspring of evil it has been accused of being here?

Thank you. That’s much better.

Please read Eim Habonim Semeichah for a chareidi perspective on this that is positive about Zionism and the creation of a Medinoh, written by Reb Yissochor Shlomo Teichtal HYD in the years and months before he was murdered by the Nazis YSh’vZ.

CG, while I agree with you that whatever it is, the Eidah and its allies are something more than microscopic, I must take issue with you on a number of levels. First, you talk of “typical Zionism”. Do you really think that there is no difference between the Zionism of yeshiva bochrim at Mercaz Harav and chiloni kibbutzniks in the Galil? Or between the Zionism of Orthodox officers like Palsar Nachal platoon commander Daniel Mandel HYD who gave his life capturing an Al Aksa terrorist in 2003 and the Zionism of the bartender at Mike’s Place in Tel Aviv? There is tremendous difference even though there are some commonalities.

One of those commonalities, and one that they share with millions of Jews around the world, frum and not frum, Zionist and not Zionist is not that they see the Edah as microscopic – it’s that they see the Edah as irrelevant to mainstream Jewish life and mainstream frum life except when they are seeking headlines by stoning cars, Police, and buses, or dressing their children up in stripes and yellow stars, or, occasionally, when they come to Diaspora cities as meshulochim. One cannot build a society and a reputation on cutting themselves off from the tzibur and then expect the tzibur to listen to them or be beholden to them. But they don’t seem to understand that. I spoke with one meshuloch who told me he can’t understand why he has fewer and fewer consistent givers in chutz laaretz, among the whole spectrum of the community, even from the very frum, even after being told that there is blowback from the actions of the Edah.

“be modeh al haemes”

In the last 2 days, mdd, you have repeatedly castigated me, my hashkafah, my direct reading of the pshat in both the Torah and the Gemara (without offering an alternative direct pshat, instead depending on inferences that support your position), you called a vort of the Netziv modernishe kabala, and you dismissed the entire possibility that someone who doesn’t share your hashkofo could possibly have an alternative point of view that has some justification.

You injected the description of Rav Adas actions as being motivated by the issue of modesty, but such a word or description is not there on the Daf, and as you conceded the meforshim don’t discuss the issue. I looked a fourth time this morning.

The emes is that your arguments are unconvincing. That’s OK. You are entitled to infer or interpret as suits you. As a side note, Rav Eliyahu Abergil, who heads the beis din in Beer Sheva, found sources (I’ve only seen a quote of his work, not the sources themselves) that describe a karbolta, the head covering worn by the woman in the Gemoro, as something associated with idol worship. Not an issue of tznius. In that case, IF she was thought to be a Jewish woman in public displaying the accoutrements of and thus encouraging avodoh zoroh, I understand better why he ripped it off of her head, and I can see it taken as the kind of example that needed action. Again, a Rav Ada or a Pinchas Hakohen is on a madrega to do such a thing.

I guess the words elu voelu divrei elokim chaim have no meaning to you. Well, they do to me. My g(x8) uncle R. Shmuel Shmelke of Nikolsburg encountered many angry Yidden who disparaged his hashkofo, and tried to run him out of town and his position through many of the same overbearing tactics. Didn’t work. And it won’t work.

MDD, The gemoro illustrates his readiness to stand up for what he perceived as kovod shomayim. It does not say that his action, his error in knocking the headdress off of a non Jew that cost 400 zuz in fines, was in and of itself praiseworthy. Rav Ada’s praiseworthiness is found in his actions listed in Gemoro Taanis.

Sorry, that’s daf chof omud beis.

Funny thing about the gemoro, MDD, you can look it up. Rav Ada Bar Achava ripped a red headdress off of a non Jewish woman, thinking she was a Jew. He was fined 400 zuzim for doing so. It doesn’t praise him or condemn him. I looked on the daf and the meforshim say nothing more about the matter.

But if you are such a chosid of Rav Ada Bar ahava, perhaps you will recall his argument with Rav Huna about if it is permissible to cut the peyos of a koton. He said yes it was, Rav Huna said no. When he found out Rav Huna’s wife cut their children’s peyos, he felt that was against Rav huna’s shitoh, and said something to the effect that she should be careful or she might end up burying her sons, and Tosefos says he didn’t mean to curse them, but they died young. Are you on his madreiga? even such a tzadik as Rav Ada said something he regretted. But really you should look at the gemoro in taanis, where he describes why he was zoche to live long. If you meet his criteria, my (red) hat is off to you and you can emulate him. If not, stick to Hillel. go and learn.

Wow, MDD, first time I’ve had a direct quote from the Torah called a modernishe zach. There’s a first time for everything I guess.

Even assuming your absurd notion that the Chofetz Chaim would have countenanced the abuse of an 8 year old frum girl, or the throwing of stones (on shabbos) at mechallelei shabbos who are avadeh tinokos shenishbu, or the screaming at a woman seated at the front of a bus, you outdo yourself with your kano-us. Don’t forget, there was more than one person or group called kanoim in our history. There was the kanous of Pinchas, which it would be total azus metzach to assume you are on the madreiga to emulate, and then there is the kanous of the zman churban bayis shaini, exemplifying the outcome of the sinas chinom that destroyed the beis hamikdosh. You may want to be a kanoi like Pinchas, but you sound like a kanoi from the time of the churban.

And BTW, you know that the person you are yelling at is sinning intentionally, how? Does this also apply to children, who have been yelled at as you paskened is mutar, if not always “wise” for months in Beit Shemesh? Are they even of age to be a meizid in anything? And is their parents “sin” appropriate to be moche because they don’t have the same daas Torah as you do? It keeps coming back to sectarianism. We don’t need to worry about the seculars or the reform or the reconstructionists, because before they can do their damage to klal Yisroel, you will have written off (and yelled at) the 75% or more of the orthodox world who holds by a different shitah than you.

You know, you talk about me inventing modernishe reasons. I’m talking about learning a 2000 year old lesson that you are willfully ignoring. Nothing modern about maaseh ovos simon libonim. Smart people, smart Jews, learn from their mistakes, or those of their forebears. You should try it some time.

And no, MDD, you aren’t going to browbeat me into silence like has been done to others on many threads when they seem too unlike you and your confederates in their thoughts and words. And I say this because I love you and every other Jew and it pains me to read words so full of anger and such readiness to pounce on another Jew’s perceived shortcomings. It is time to remember what Hillel hazoken said about Veohavto loreacho komocha. All the rest is commentary. Now go and learn.

smart, I had my family including four kids as well as in laws at a spacious townhouse with four bedrooms. also a private pool in the back but it was tiny. 10 days was abt $1000. less than a 10 minute drive from the gates back in 07. google windsor hills

shmoolik – that is what this is about. all of it, from the mehadrin bus lines to nachal chareidi to the internet to lipa shmeltzer to beit shemesh assaults on 8 year olds. it is ALL about control. Control may be a good thing, if you believe that ol malchus shomayim beins being tachas ol avreichei gedolim, or to be dan lcaf zchus tachas ol gedolai Torah themselves. And the reason so little has been said on these issues, especially the most recent terrible images, is that even though their means are violating Torah, the ends that the rioters want are exactly the same as Daas Torah, as it defines itself or is defined by its yoatzos, so how can they appear to be against outcomes they desire – those being control over the hearts and minds of the chareidi velt- even if the means are abhorrent? Truly there is no simple answer for them, as they see actions that are terrible to achieve outcomes they ultimately want.

Control may also be perceived as a bad thing, and those who want no control at all over any yetzer put themselves outside frumkeit.

My preference is l’chatchila SELF Control, as learned in the system of Torah values we cherish; when you need guidance, though, you must seek it, as the mishna says Asey Lecho Rov. The authority doesn’t appear from thin air – you make it. And it must suit YOU. The mishna doesn’t say Asey LOHEM Rov. Don’t tell others what is das vodin, unless they have taken on the same daas torah as you, and given up their choices to a guide who exercises control as you have done.

With all due respect to you, mdd, you may indeed know halocho better than oomis or me or anyone else. And, as a man, and as someone who has been in the parsha, you are right, sometimes a woman has a right to demand a get, and sometimes not. But that has nothing at all to do with the yashrus and the right choice of the man giving the get. He is either glach or he isn’t. But coming back to you, you may be a boki, or an illui, or both, but it has nothing to do with your gender.

My marriage recently ended, and at the outset of the separation things were pretty ugly. Nonetheless, and after working on reconciling for a number of months, and finally determining the marriage was over, I gave the get and would never have held it over her head, even if I had had to fight tooth and nail in beis din, court, or anywhere else for my rights (b’h didn’t work out that I had to). It is just wrong and flies in the face of everything that I believe about yashrus and treating a fellow human being, even one I couldn’t live with anymore, with respect. It would have been a terrible lesson to our children, who are old enough to understand the implications of withholding. My relationship with them and the respect I hope they will have for me is worth more than the leverage a get presents. I can see no valid reson for withholding a get. If there arte circumstances where the woman is acting in a cruel and manipulative way, there are other, better means to fight, that don’t compromise the conscience or dishonour the soul.

Galitzianer chassidishe minhag in my family, not to say. All the Litvishe and Yeshivishe and BT from Litvishe orgs notwithstanding, still do so, unless I am the Shliach tzibur in a place where they do say, in which case I do like the minhag of the tzibur

Moishy, Ironic it sounds more goyish – this year they did a cover of “Miracle” davka about chanukah, word for word, no need to change the lyrics, that was put out by Matisyahu (who may not be your flavour of frum, but davening, tzitzis wearing, shomer shabbos and kashrus, full of ahavas yisroel frum) last year. It is actually the most Jewish song they covered yet.

As someone with roots among the earliest proponents of chasidus, leaders who tried to integrate many of its principles into the kehilos they led (with mixed responses), I feel, RSRH, that you put it succinctly and beautifully. Popa, you are right as well, that sometimes these Hegelian movements within Yiddishkeit end up with a synthesis that is unacceptable…but sometimes they flower and enrich all of klal yisroel, like chasidus has done. Perhaps we are seeing a moment like that now, and our responsibility isn’t to stifle such a movement, but rather to influence it so that it stays within the boundaries of Halocho. That won’t be accomplished through denigration or calling it apikorsus or amaratzus or reform.

Derech, while I respect the way you stated your perspective (not, like some others here, determining that “the other” is worthy of denigration) even though you disagree with their actions, I think there is a fundamental issue at play here, and a serious one, that you illustrate. One perspective is that not only are the general structures and many pratim of our daily lives circumscribed and detailed to the smallest iota by our mesorah, but our thoughts, intentions, and expressions of joy within holocho are as well, down to the tiniest details. I accept that many people, many communities, see that as the only way to live their lives, and the best way, according to their understanding of the mesorah. I would ask, though, how does such an environment deal with change? I’ll take something simple. A heimishe family dpoesn’t often have the opportunity to eat out of the home, at a restaurant. For many of our families, being large, it is an impossibility. One of the ways in which our families have been able to afford this is the growth and popularity of pizza among heimishe communities. Now, you know and I know that pizza is and was completely foreign to the conveyors of our mesorah less than 100 years ago. You and I also know that there is plenty of detail in terms of holocho and minhag that guides what and how we eat in detail. And yet, it is a rare kehila or community indeed that bans pizza as minhag akum, or ‘past nisht”. I know, I know, this is a simplistic example. But truly, it speaks to the issue. It doesn’t violate holocho. Eventually, Rabonim got their heads around it to the point of making determinations of how many slices require a mezonos and how many a hamotzi. It didn’t need to be a michshol simply because it was a chidush. This leads to my point. As I wrote earlier, I got and aliyah, named my daughters, made a kiddush in shul. I have my own minhag which I am comfortable with. But if there is at least some precedent; if the activities are within the boundaries of halocho, even if they are different than some minhagim; if the event is done lesheim shomayim and with real hakoras hatov to HKBH; is it against halocho to do it? And further – what are we doing investing generations of time, money, resources and sweat creating mosdos and places where our kinderlach learn how to learn, learn how to find teshuvos, learn how to apply what they learn to their lives, if we are just going to tell them to as their LOR what colour shoelaces to wear, or which side of a table to sit down at? What was the point of all of that effort if we and our children won’t be expected to use our seichel and our capacity to find guidance in the massive canon of halocho to help us make decisions in our lives?

H mom,

Frum Mothers give brachos to their kids every Friday night – Yesimcho… Doing so in this environment you describe as outside of the parameters of Halocho…how, exactly?

My Rabbeim and Roshei Yeshiva never responded to this question saying there is no real choice and everything is predetermined. That would be an essentially pointless existence. HKBH has no need for robots, nor could the concept that the world was created for our pleasure in doing avodas haboreh, if we weren’t choosing to do so. Rather, one explanation which I found most understandable was that HKBH knows the outcome of every potential choice each of us makes – each alternate possible world that flows from each choice, but HKBH does not know which of those choices we will make until we do so. This fulfills the idea of omnipotence, in that all possible outcomes are known, but also allows for the critical element of bechira, because which of those potential outcomes will happen is not pre-known.

The Vancouver community has a JCC, and the dairy restaurant there is called Nava, and is under BCK Orthodox hashgacha. There is an excellent meat restaurant closer to downtown called Maple Grill, also under BCK. THere are a couple of others, including a pizza place, but these two are the best. The community high school, King David, is next to the JCC. There are 2 or 3 Chabad centres, including one downtown down the block from the Holiday Inn, and another chabad affiliated learning centre upstairs from Maple Grill. Congregation Schara Tzedek is the large Orthodox shul, MO mostly, which also has youth programs and NCSY. THe Rabbi is very welcoming, as is the whole congregation. There’s also an orthodox shul in Richmond, I think called Eitz Chaim.

The community is very nice. A couple of things to consider. Beyond the frum community there is a huge amount of assimilation and intermarriage. There is also alot of opportunity for kiruv.

The city itself is magnificent – one of the most beautiful cities in the Western Hemisphere. But for anyone considering living there, be aware that real estate prices – especially in areas where much of the frum community lives – are three times higher than comparable property in other Canadian cities like Toronto, and way, way more than in US cities where real estate has declined in the last 3 years.

When the word “tolerance” is considered nivul peh, this is the result. And to think of the mesiras nefesh those ethiopian Jewish families had to get even one child out through Sudan, or on Operation Solomon; to think that the Ethiopian community accepted the shitos of many rabonim who said they needed to undergo a geirus lechumra; to think that we haven’t had enough abuse thrown at us over the ages, we need to throw some at our own brothers and sisters. This is being an or lagoyim?

More of those with such an antagonism towards Zionism should read Eim Habonim Semeichah by Rav Yissachar Teichtal HYD. It’s not a modern orthodox perspective, its not a frei perspective, it is the work of a great, G-d fearing ehrliche Rov.

Health, I am in a very similar situation to you, though my ex is still maintaining some level of observance, and facilitates the kids doing so. But I have come to a completely different conclusion. It seems to me the factionalism and even elitism which you or I might understand, if not justify, contrasted with the open hearts and homes of those involved in kiruv, and the longer she lived in the frum world, the less she saw of the open hearts and the more of the less savory elements of frum society. It didn’t have a good hashpo’oh on her, and real problems can’t be conveniently explained away.

I believe in kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh means each and every Jew, and we cant pick and choose who we are going to “allow” to take on one, ten, or all mitzvos – because choosing to help or facilitate observance is in practical terms choosing to allow or not.

I’d suggest two pieces of research. For the science, read Jon Entine’s Abraham’s Children, which looks at the DNA of Jewish populations and presents some startling information, and some that we already knew, just confirmed. FOr a look at possibilities rather than certainties, I’d suggest Simcha Jacobovici’s film Quest for the Lost Tribes. Simcha is a good filmmaker, and is also Observant – I’d say on the liberal side of Orthodox.

Ahhh, didn’t realize we weren’t following kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh…

Wow, 600 kilo, the tziyonim are responsible for meshichist extremists now? What else? New Coke? The Roswell coverup? Global Warming?