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please, evil man, tell me more about people who died to save us….
Someone asked a gut shailoh on the front page – when it comes to missiles and hostages, some say – learning protects, no hishtadlus is required. Why not apply same logic to a threat of losing funding or army recruitment? Don’t waste your time on demonstrations, apply your learning to protect the yeshivos. Has veshalom, lo aleichem, everyone is at the demonstration, and Hashem will allow knesset to vote against your interest at themoment nobody is learning?
I have been reading the wicked comments of HaKatan and UJM
for more than two years, and I noticed that they *** NEVER ***
criticize the Nazis or the Arabs or the Muslims,
and they *** NEVER *** blame the Nazis or the Arabs or the Muslims
for *** ANY *** problem.Instead, they blame “The Zionists” for 100% of the problems, 100% of the time.
This false version of History is disgusting anti-Semitic Victim Blaming,
and it is the symptom of minds that are very sick and very dangerous to Jews.There are good reasons why I suspect HaKatan and UJM
of being paid agents of Hamas or Hezbollah or Iran.@aaq
thats not a ‘gutte shailo’ at all
this is based on a simple lack of understanding
.no one in his right mind says that re missiles and hostages, no hishtadlut is required —
what they are saying is : the ‘hishtadlut’ which is specifically requested , i.e.
enrollment of our precious and impressionable youth [who will end up being the fathers and educators of the subsequent generation] into the army
will 1] make no material positive difference in the lot of the missiles and hostages anyway
and 2] will make an enormous negative difference in the essence of our precious youth in 99.999 % of the draftees
so —
even though it is true that hishtadlut in general , is required re missiles and hostages , nevertheless
said particular hishtadlut is not required by said particular youth
so —
as a result , using the general and overarching principle in yahadut , that
whenever hishtadlut by this particular person is not permitted , not possible, or not required , for whatever reason —
that person should suffice with the following – rely on, and hope for , and pray to HKBH for a speedy salvation
—
whereas in the case of stopping the immoral gzera of forced enlistment , said hishtadlut , sometimes – depending on the circumstances, is permitted
therefore as a result , again , using the general and overarching principle in yahadut , that
whenever hishtadlut by this particular person is permitted , or required ,
that person is obligated to do both —
also
rely on, and hope for , and pray to HKBH for a speedy salvation
and also
put in the required hishtadlut
.
.
this is not a contradiction at alljust two age old principles of yahadut , put into practice , in two totally different circumstances
.
.
.by the way – re funding – as far as I am aware , the demonstrations are not against the funding
they are only against the illegal kidnapping of innocent people
at the behest of biased crooks masquerading as legal experts …
.
.simcha is not an evil man .
people who died to save the community in the IDF are on the level of harugei lud .
thats the written opinion of rav chaim shmulevits zatsal.
.
.AAQ – Someone asked a gut shailoh on the front page – when it comes to missiles and hostages, some say – learning protects, no hishtadlus is required. Why not apply same logic to a threat of losing funding or army recruitment?
No one ever said that we are holding at a level where “hishtadlus” is not required. However, “hishtadlus” doesn’t override the many issurim involved in participating in the IDF. Even Pikuach Nefesh doesn’t override Gilui Arayos. In a situation where the IDF has an agenda to deliberately be מכשיל Chareidi soldiers in Chilul Shabbos and other issurim, then Pikuach Nefesh doesn’t override that either. That is the actual point of conflict here, not whether “hishtadlus” is necessary. Everyone involved here in Israel, on both sides of the fence, understands that. It’s just that the Chareidim can’t say out loud that they won’t serve altogether, and the Left can’t say out loud that they want to make Chareidim go OTD, so both sides use code words and dog whistles.
I don’t know what is the point of posting all of these articles. As if anyone disputes that there are reshaim in the Israeli government. The argument here isn’t about giving a hezkat kashrut to the government. It’s simply the idea that the country is controlled by a Jewish establishment, and that is a good thing for the Jewish nation. It isn’t the first time in history that Jewish leaders are currupt and not following the Torah. But the fact that we have an establishment in “our” control is a springboard to where we ultimately are looking to be. The fact that Medinat Yisrael is a step towards the geula is undisputable to anyone who has any sense of the concept of hashgaha. Maybe how it came about wasn’t lechtehila, but now that we are where we are it’s clear that this is the path Hashem chose for us. If you think otherwise you may fall into the category of an angry person who’s anger is tantamount to Avoda Zara. You simply don’t agree with that which Hashem has done. It’s absurd to think that backtracking our current position, giving control of israel to anyone else will be any better for Haredim. Which government is going to support Jews learning Torah? The tiny percentage of Jews in the US who taking advantage of the system are totally under the radar. That would never work is Israel. So not only is Medinat Yisrael a step closer to the geula, there is no better alternative. And you’d have to be a total ignaramous to suggest mass yerida. This whole argument is nonsensical. A bunch of statements about “zionists” and a mesora. Quoting these statements is a lot of noise at best. Not practical whatsoever. And again, not Torah misinai. Hating another Jew because they “support” the state of israel is an issur d’orayta. And spewing your hatred causing others to follow just compounds the transgression. Feel free to believe as you wish, but your hatred and name calling is despicable and anti Torah.
@ YYA
“Everyone involved here in Israel, on both sides of the fence, understands that. It’s just that the Chareidim can’t say out loud that they won’t serve altogether, and the Left can’t say out loud that they want to make Chareidim go OTD, so both sides use code words and dog whistles.”
Very well said. Especially since Hareidi units have been tried in the past. Given the above what do you think is the path forward? Should Hatzalh start a private militia?
Non Political – I don’t know. My guess, which I have mentioned before, is that if and when there will be a genuine operational need for Chareidim, for practical reasons, not for ideological reasons, then the IDF brass will have no choice but to sincerely engage with the Chareidim on terms acceptable to a majority of Gedolei Yisroel. In order for that to be possible, it will be necessary to break the stranglehold of the judicial junta dictatorship that de facto runs Israel. Hopefully the latter will precede the former, or even better the Geulah Hasheleimah will precede both.
YYA,> It’s just that the Chareidim can’t say out loud that they won’t serve altogether, and the Left can’t say out loud that they want to make Chareidim go OTD, so both sides use code words and dog whistles.
I am really skeptical about assigning intentions, especially nefarious, to groups of people. I am sure some are. But I presume that most people on the left (and center, and some on the right) feel charedi position is unfair and insulting to them. If they feel desire of making potential recruits “less charedi” probably means that they would like those charedim to be friendlier towards the rest of am yisroel.
And we discussed your complaints already. My suggestion is – be mentchen, develop a positive agenda and propose your own conditions instead of demonstrating against.
YYA > hat if and when there will be a genuine operational need for Chareidim, for practical reasons, not for ideological reasons, then the IDF brass will have no choice but to sincerely engage with the Chareidim on terms acceptable to a majority of Gedolei Yisroel.
the best way to make army really need charedim is to develop desirable skills. For example, cyber or EW skills.
AAQ – This isn’t about “complaints”, this is about life itself as Torah Jews. That is how Gedolei Yisroel of the Litvish, Chassidish, and Sephardim, as well as a few honest RZ leaders, all see this issue. Things have been tried, but the IDF doesn’t take the Chareidim seriously, and the SC does everything to prevent any solution. The IDF of 2025 is not the Haganah of 1948 (which wasn’t so great either), and is certainly no semblance of a real Jewish Army. If you still don’t get it, I can’t help you.
@AAQ
I fully concur with yaakov yosef’s post addressed to you .
.
.YYA> IDF doesn’t take the Chareidim seriously,
Then, work on being taken seriously instead of working so hard to alienated all other groups of Jews . Articulate conditions under which some of the community will do something for the country and continue discussing those conditions. You have enough politicians to do that.
AAQ – Been there done that. If this was left to the elected government that would be possible like it was until now. What is happening now is that the SC/AG/junta dictatorship is using this issue to make their last stand, after they failed to topple the government on every other issue they tried. From their perspective this really isn’t even about the Chareidim per se, so much as it is about maintaining their dictatorship. An elected government needs votes, and they are willing to compromise to get those votes.
AAQ is persisting in his naivete …..
.@always_ask_questions
what a silly statement! WE don’t want the IDF to “take us seriously”, we want them to go away and leave us alone! THEY – the zionists – happen to also be dishonest in their evil targeting of jews to their false religion. Like a Notzri missionary, the IDF doesn’t take our Judaism seriously. The answer isn’t, well maybe we should take THEM seriously!somejew > we want them to go away and leave us alone!
simply move outside of IDF-controlled area – to surya or mitzrayim. I suggested this before, but now it is even possible to survive under new Surian government. Why do people who do not like the government and the army insist on living under their protection?yankel> AAQ is persisting in his naivete …..
I noticed you repeat this sentence as if this can really convince me. You can do better, you often bring good arguments. Just presume that I have access to the library of alexandria and the whole internet, so not so naive, and answer on topic.@always_ask_questions
the kosher Jews lives here like we’ve always lived here, to be in Eretz Yisroel, to be near our families and other people we love.
The zionists came and forced their rule over the population of Palestine. now, you want us to leave because we don’t want your government?@aaq
you are persisting in your naivete
because … you really are
you can have access to all the books and material to be published from sheshet yemei breshit untill the very end of days
and you will still totally miss the point
as long as you do not take that one , most important point , into account
the same point all the so called peace makers in the middle east are missing
and that is …
REALITY !
instead of looking at reality from your own biased , distorted and rose colored glasses
and predicating your solutions on what you falsely perceive to the reality
you have to see reality as what it really is , instead of what you wish it to be
and only then start formulating your responses
as long as we don’t agree about the facts on the ground , meaning reality as it really is ,
we will be unable to move the discussions any further
and I will have to suffice with deploring your excessive [and willful ? ] naivete
.
.AAQ – Just looking at how the IDF, under the Military ‘Yoamashit’ Yemachshemit Antishemit, treat their ‘own’ secular and RZ soldiers, should help you attain some clarity on why the Chareidim (and a smaller but growing number of RZ) simply don’t trust the IDF brass any more.
somiejew > The zionists came and forced their rule over the population of Palestine. now, you want us to leave because we don’t want your government?
Is this your version of history? Jewish population in 1880s was 25,000. They were supported financially by Yidden around the world.
Most modern charedim came at the same time as other Jews and have as much claim to the country.yankel, your attack on my “naivete” – do you have a point? What you see as “naive” is mu humble attempt to argue an issue from the first principles – what is it about, instead of starting with stereotypes and slogans from any of the groups. It is a well-regarded approach, practiced by Avraham (Rambam’s version) and Socrates. If you would like to have your objections, gezunte heig – and you often do – byt simply ranting at me because I am not using cliches dear to your ear is silly and unbecoming.
The title of this thread is exceedingly gross. Better to start a new one just to stop seeing this disgusting title every day. BTW, it also doesn’t make sense. The first two “Reichs” weren’t antisemitic, and no other country except for Oestreich ever called it’s government by that name.
@AAQ
you do not live in EY
you are not familiar with the mindset there
I do not blame you that you are naive
because you have never ‘felt it on your own skin’ ….
but at least you could have shown some humility here and acknowledge that you do not know
after all , there exist ‘known unknowns’ and on top of that also ‘unknown unknowns’
these realities are in the latter category for you
.
.
there is no need to take offense at being accused of not knowing ‘unknown unknowns’because it cannot be helped , and
no such offense was ever intended
.
.YY is right – this title IS gross ….
.AAQ (and everybody else) – For and excellent, well sourced, and highly readable discussion of the role of the Chareidim in the early years of the “New Yishuv”, as well as the decades long campaign by the Labor Zionists to rewrite history in their own image and marginalize the Chareidi contribution, see the new book החרדים והארץ by Refael Refaelov.
ujm – I am aware of the origins of the term “Third Reich”. Everyone here understands what you mean by “Fourth Reich”. It’s just overkill and offensive and adds nothing meaningful to the discussion. It also doesn’t refer to a German or German speaking government, so it also technically makes no sense, if that even matters.
@ YB
“there is no need to take offense at being accused of not knowing ‘unknown unknowns ’because it cannot be helped , and no such offense was ever intended”
The kind of unknowns you where accusing him of are “should have known unknowns”, hence the use of the word naivete. Why are you backtracking from this? An olive branch?
@ AAQ
I’m a big fan of arguing a case from first principals (sometimes). I don’t see you doing that here. Your point of view on this subject requires accepting multiple propositions beyond first principals. You seem to be building your argument from what you perceive are, or ought to be, premises regarding which there is broad consensus. Clearly you see that this is not the case.
Yes, this thread absolutely needs to be shut down.
@non political
in principle I agree with you
but then again I do not have access to AAQ’s private details
I know that he regularly distorts hazal and disforms their message by adding his own ‘sevarot keres’ which are against clear torah hashkafot
but I still cannot judge him re how much is meizid , how much is shogeg , and how much is stam kalut daat
because of lack of personal knowledge as mentioned
was giving him the benefit of the doubt
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