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re: Israeli matzos. Let’s not bad mouth it.
We should not confuse actual quality and market forces. I recall a story that some Americans used to sneer at Sifrei Torah imported from Europe – it was of low quality. European view was: where else can you sell a low-quality Sefer if not in America?!
RebE: It did not affect the economy to invest in capital enhancements by increasing jobs but used for stock buy back.
Look, I think we need to be humble here. I am not an economist, and possibly you are none also. And even if we were, “best of the economists to Gehinom” ^BS^BS, I mean, “predicted 10 out of last 5 recessions”. So, any smart economist can convince us with some magical thinking about “no inflation”, “just buying back stock”,”invest in the future”. We have no idea whether this arguments are true or they simply highlight one part of the picture, while ignoring another, on purpose or not.
So, I am always trying to look at simplest fundamentals: when you “tax the rich” in US, you forcibly take money from those who earned it, mostly thru business, rather than just inheritance, and give it to someone else who (a) needs it, (b) is not so productive. So, you want to take as little as possible and also give it to the right people who need it with right incentives.
With that said, Trump’s policies achieved improved employment for many disadvantaged groups – that is better help than welfare [omit nonsense that improvement was at the same rate as during Obama – Obama’s rate was from peak of unemployment to good economy 2 times longer than usual, and worse if you count broader measures due to many people going off-market, while Trump took it from nominally good employment to below “natural rate” of unemployment and into pockets of long-term minority unemployment. Just to illustrate the idea – decreasing unemployment from 10% to 8% is not very helpful, but from, say 2% to 0% would be a miracle].
So, now, government is taking a big chunk of money (and we’ll pay for that somehow, of course) and starts giving them away to all kind of interest groups, despite a diminished need for help. How is that good? Why would a long-term senator Biden is better in “investing” money than all businessmen he is taking them from. If he was “on the wrong side of every issue” in foreign policy (al pi Bob Gates), do you think he is better at domestic?
The way such bills are popular is well understood in theory: benefits are specific, while costs are diffused. One person sees $1,000 for people w/ children, great! Another – $1,000 for people w/out children, also great! Charlie is seducing us by $2B for private schools. Cool. At the same time, cost of each item is insignificant per tax-payer comparing with a visible benefit, and is also claimed to happen sometime later. This is how every avoda zara/yetzer hara works – shows you an immediate free miracle with the hidden cost later.
If someone, for some reason, wants to see his personal benefit, you can count whether you get to $6,000 per person, including children, that this bill costs. You might say, CTLawyer does not mind this bill. But then, consider whether CTLawyer could keep his money and spend on tzedokah himself.
Yt, I presume you did not do it in the South … I once left a purse on a ledge (not on Shabbat) in a building, came back 2 days later, it was still there.
Charlie, $2.7B in private school money from D-s is indeed remarkable
to compare, 2020 bill had $42B for schools,
of K-12, 70 percent went to public schools and 30 percent went to private or charter schoolshere are some items in the bill, as reported by covidmoneytracker:
Expand Child Tax Credit from $2,000 to $3,000 ($3,600 for children under age 6) and make it fully refundable for one year $110 billion
Expand Earned Income Tax Credit to childless adults for one year, tripling the credit, and include those aged 19-24 and over 65. Permanently allow recipients to have more investment income and expand the EITC in territories $23 billion
[ 2 policies above – for children for childless people, basicly to anyone]Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules $58 billion
Expand Affordable Care Act subsidies by reducing the maximum cost of insurance plans $34 billion
Increase base Medicaid match to states that newly expand Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act $16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years $9 billion [no breakdown between these 2 groups 🙂I am not sure who the President is right now, but the next President will be serving his second term anyway.
>> you care less about those who died of Influenza
My kids scored one win when talking with a friend with a non-mask father – the other kid ventured a thought that there are more people dying from car accidents than from COVID. When they jointly checked the numbers, that kid started going to shul in a mask next week and soon even father started wearing a turtleneck where he could hide his chin.
RebE, I am not denying that there is suffering, but the numbers are:
U6 unemployment 11.1% – same as in Jan 2015
U5 – 7.4% – same as in 2014
Appliances shipments are delayed due to high demand. Many people report inability to find repair and maintenance workers.I am all for helping those who are in need, including providing them with job opportunities, rather than using pandemic as an excuse to push socialist policies. As was mentioned here, $600B compromise bill had all help that was needed and got no interest. To compare $900B bill that was not targeted due to speed and confusion of last spring was good enough to support country through the year.
>> people who are more religious generally vote republican.
I don’t want to start another flame war, but calling one group of observant Jews “more religious” than another is not a good form. I do agree that majority of more conservative Jews vote Republican – despite benefitting from D- redistribution policies. At the same time, more “liberal” (in American sense, not in classical liberal) observant Jews are split about 50-50 – despite benefitting from R- pro-business and pro-Israel policies.
Marbim, a great quote, thanks a lot! And a great nick.
This fulfils my weekly quota of positives.
Pose a question or a topic that is possible for both you to research in advance of a call or zoom and then compare notes.
CTLawyer, NYT Mar 9,
By some measures, the states ended up collecting nearly as much revenue in 2020 as they did in 2019. A J.P. Morgan survey: revenues last year were down just 0.06 percent from 2019
Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center: total state revenues from April through December were down just 1.8 percent from the same period in 2019.their caveat: “We know that local governments are doing far worse than the states,” said Lucy Dadayan, a senior research associate at the Tax Policy Center.
Syag, I apologize if I misunderstood you.
We are telling you that it is not OK to have 90% of people infected (which I do not think is correct) and you seem to respond that we seem to live in small communities. I thought this is in response to my concern about your people, but it seems that it was unrelated.DY> I guess you are oblivious to the tremendous damage which was done by locking down
I am not oblivious. There are people for whom it is easier to be safer, there are others that not.
I am just saying that there are things each of us individually can do to improve things. I listed some options, and asked you to check whether they are possible. In response, I get inane generic statements.I see people in some shuls here disregarding rules also. In one place, apparently Rabbonim require masks inside. So, a bunch of them get out and take masks off and walk without them. The Rav goes back in a mask and sometimes someone even goes near him and continues talking to him without it. Talking about Maaseh Rav.
Latest example – non-haredi Israelis over 50 are now vaccinated/got infected at 98% rate, hareidi and Arab at 80+% (so your “90%” is not everywhere). What stops that community to go get a free vaccine, especially with being in greater risk and Rabbis approving it? You can’t resolve the problem unless you admit it first.
charlie – first COVID bill was smaller and it was during an actual emergency. It might have been better if it were targeted, but there was no time to do that. It achieved the goal. Current bill is developed after month of careful planning and the emergency is not there. You know that and post the opposite for some reason I can not fathom.
Syag>I’m guessing you and AAQ live in some relatively small jewish communities.
Syag, are you an anti-semite?! You are implying that a large Jewish community means disregard for human health and, accordingly, high infection rates. I reject this definition. Rahmanut is an identifying quality of Jewish people according to Gemorah. If you live in a place where it is lacking, then you live in a small Jewish community.
RebE – could you point me to where is a lack of demand?
shipments of many durable good are behind due to factories not being able to fulfil the orders.Some of the industries that are in distress – food, hospitality, education – partially restructured to deliveries, partially is healthy (literally – when people cook more at home), and I am on board with helping the rest of it.
I really do ont understand full accounting of this bill. Reports I saw try to combine items into innocent sounding categories. What do you think about $450b to states? states collected same taxes as last year. They may have higher expenses due to COVID, but they do not seem to try to change anything – they continue requiring all kind of paperwork as before, running schools under the same rules. For example, I inquired with my state senator whether they planned to increase enrollment into online public schools to compliment struggling local schools. He liked the idea, passed it on, and then sheepishly said “there is too much local opposition”.
Mathematically, changing clothes is just a humra on checking pockets – you change your pockets instead of checking them, and clothes are simply attached to pockets.
The cheapest and fool-proof method is to simply cut the pockets out. Now, every time you want to put something in your pockets, you will be reminded of Shabbos.
R Sacks Z’L spoke movingly about his teacher R Nachum Rabinowitz, who in turn had a semicha from Ner Isroel and PhD in statistics. (aside: R Rabinowitz writings on use of probabilities are breath-taking).
R Sacks is a universalist, most reminding of R Shimshon Hirsh. He is able to put Torah learning in terms that can be understood – and valued – by nations of the world, and explain to Jews how Torah relates to modern life and modern philosophies, something that this Coffee Room often concerns about.
common, I don’t think I disagree with you. I am pointing out that as a politician he needs to be held to a higher standard when he is using power of his office than people in private businesses. The difference is sometimes blurred.
ujm, DY, I hear you. I am talking about what we do now. Lakewood changed and now serves a different function, agreed.
The question is – do we now need a place where people can learn the way R’ Kotler envisioned. Maybe we don’t. Maybe we do not understand what and why he wanted, as we are satisfied with the new American way. Maybe there are other places now that provide hat function, the way Torah centers moved from Bavel to Europe. Soliciting your opinion.
smerel >> assuming the predictions of inflation and other problems this will cause don’t pan out
it does not matter what will be exact path that borrowed money take. The money has to come from somewhere.
Economy is a complicated thing, so it is easy to develop a magical view – yes, we can borrow, but then we have new means to control inflation, etc, etc. If there is a magical way to print money for nothing, then print this money to return them to the rightful owners (aka as tax cuts) or save this capability for the next “unexpected” event. If some insist on new or changing social programs – fine, just have a public discussion about it rather than running a candidate that does not say anything and then pretend it is “emergency spending”.
>> gedoilim have clearly pointed to … when the europeans closed the border rosh hashana time
I did not hear this dvar Toirah. Which gedolim pointed out this interesting connection?
Common, All I was asking you to describe what you saw. Just curious. Are you saying that the experience is such that it is impossible to describe? Would I also need to eat hazer to have an opinion whether it is kosher?
common, reya is indeed better. That is why I am asking for your precious testimony – what did you see. You just said “power trip”, but did not specify what exactly you saw, except when you personally had a mask one, you had no problem. I don’t see there is a lot of gray area, maybe except these:
1) nose under mask, but used to support the mask so that it increases non-filtered air access
2) occasional to longer eating
3) masks made out of materials that would not be considered tzanua if worn on the legDY> that was before the Verrazzano
Good point. Probably also better cars, cheaper gas, and more reckless driving. It was a great idea, too bad it failed.
What is the next place that could restore R’ Kotler’s dream of quality learning and still be within driving distance from NYC? Amish country? Rural CT? Or somewhere where flying with Spirit is affordable?
common, good news – if you are a female after college and before nursing home, or a male of any age, the governor will not be a threat to you!
when we look at behaviors of various celebrities, I think, we need to differentiate between those in private businesses and in public office. It is one thing to leverage your business skills or simply money (within legal limits), it is different to use power of the people and government monopoly on power and certain jobs. The latter is much bigger corruption of the society. CEOs of public companies is a case somewhat in between, and we can just hope that shareholders will do the right thing.
common – indeed. That proposal covered $600B, so at least $1.3T of the bill is partisan payout.
I wonder whether those who support these $1.3T for policy or political reasons are OK with the policy making via “emergency funding”. Anyone concerned about the integrity of the system? ends justify the means?
merG > how many egg boxes full of hundreds is a trillion dollars
and this is exactly why US does not print larger bills – to prevent cash fraud. EU has higher value bills for your convenience. Your gvir will soon hit with higher taxes and regulations. Your independent doctor already sold his business to the hospitals after Obamacare, so do not spend the tzedokah you get now in one shot.
RebE: could you define the limit for your theory that printing money makes everything grow? do you see downside at some point, or should US redistribute more?
at this point, there are narrowly defined segments of economy that are under pressure. Even many hospitality workers turned into delivery work.
Another example: states came out even on collected taxes in 2020 on average. What is then the point of giving federal money to states
I thought R’ Kotler positioned Lakewood so that it would be at respectable distance from NYC to enable learning without distractions.
follick2, so you will increase dependency of your community on welfare payments and hope that this will last?
Not exactly a direct comparison, but I see a lesson here: when a new PM Menachem Begin offered full subsidy to yeshivot, R Schach advised against taking it. His reasoning: yeshivot will come to fully rely on government funds, and when a new government comes and reduces subsidies, they will go bankrupt.
Similarly here, relying on government to support you because you are poor will keep you poor for the time being. People who could have paid your Rebbe directly will have less omney too. Then, when someone else’s money will run out, you will not be able to support yourself.
DY >> when you have a shul where 90% of the people have had Covid, and the other 10% are spread out
if you have 90% of people who were sick, you were doing something wrong.
>> claiming all these rabbonim are being fed
It is possible to be aware of information and still telling their followers not to take certain measures. Biggest motivation would be thinking that their community will be severely damaged by lack of shuls, schools, all institutions they spent years building. One Rav I heard early in Corona on focused his very emotional speech (on the phone) mostly about dangers of Internet. The extreme example of pursuing this protection was an official document that hinted that healthy people should go get tested to reduce the positivity rate, so that the government stops bothering us.
Still, this public position does not take responsibility away from individuals. If you think that you can survive some challenges, why wouldn’t you try to keep someone, including yourself and your family, safer? It seems like your [SAD] excuse might be that you live in such a community where everyone is getting positive anyway. If this is indeed so, and not rhetorical, you should all sit on the floor and discuss why you all let that happen.
Current Israeli numbers for over-50s: -80% of haredim and Arabs either recovered or vaccinated (at least once, I think), and 98% of the rest of the country. Almost all people currently in hospital are those who were not vaccinated (include younger ones)
So, this may be a forecast for similar numbers in some pockets of Israeli community – a minority of 20% has to be convincedCharlie:
[Adams] Furthermore the religious education you mentioned was Puritan. Had their been any Jews in Massachusetts back then, we would have had to pay taxes to support the Puritan religious schools, as were Christian minorities .. Adams would die in 1826 and Massachusetts would finally distablish its Puritan Church (by then, largely Unitarian in the eastern part of the state) in 1833.Their logic was that religion is required to teach morals. As you are saying, there was a machloket whether there should be only a public Puritan church, or others can register too. As you mentioned it was resolved… If we were to pay taxes to support Puritan ministers – and have a right to have our own, this would not be much different from current situation, where we pay taxes to support government schools, and then open our own.
>> The first Jewish religious congregation would not be started until 1842. Like every other Ashkenazi congreatation in existence in the US at that time that has survived, it is not orthodox.
Well, you are cancelling Sephardim, like Puritans were cancelling Catholics 🙂
The next line in Shabbat 12a talks about shaking clothes looking for lice at night on Shabbat. I am not a lice expert, but it seems if you just put on fresh clothes before shabbat, you would not need to take them off immediately.
In our days, many people wear what we would consider shabbos clothes the whole week. So, they have another problem – when they touch wine of havdala on their clothes, the bracha never gets to their work clothes.
CTLawyer,
>> My flying time on business is working time. Coach class on a budget airline does not have the space and quiet conducive to my work.yes, I do the same. Just in that case, it would involve staying overnight at the client’s expense and missing driving kids to school in the morning.
I once felt very guilty going on a redeye, while my wife was dealing with a newborn. I had to ask myself, do I really dare to enjoy several hours of sleep, and that made me feel even worse? Hashem took care of my guilt feeling. A Chinese father or grandfather was flying with a small baby and signing a very annoying “niggun” the whole flight again and again. I presume this was Eliahu, as I never saw anything like that again in my life.
maedaliyah> That either we never wear masks or we always do?
I agree. I would start with – whenever governor of your state mandates it, and when other people expect you to do it, such as in the stores, offices. It is also not an only choice. “wearing mask” became a short-hand for this madness. There are lots of other decisions you can make. for example, not too fly for a vacation on Spirit this year, limit other optional things and find appropriate, or even better, substitutes, such as learning Torah, gaining a profession, spending more time with yor spouse and kids. I would presume that, for example, Vilna Gaon, would not need to wear mask much, as he rarely ventured out of his house.
DY, so if your respected Rabonim do not object to people wearing masks, what stops people from wearing them.
I am sure there are some kids that need to be in school. At the same time, there are a lot who could benefit from being more with their parents. As a thought experiment – is there ONE class you’d like to learn together with your kids? Humash? Alef Beis? Science? Math? Gym?
Most of my kids switched to online schools pre-Corona. They are both at school and at home. They, as I, rarely wear masks.
There is a difference between online schools and regular schools trying to do online and hybrid. The former saw no changes except longer enrollment lines. The latter, yes, struggle sometimes despite best efforts, although CTLawyer seem to report that his family is doing fine, reporting progress, relative to in-person, similar to ours. The main mistake schools made when trying to be online is frantic attempts to replicate in-person experience with everyone hanging over magic zoom. the right way is to give students well-prepared work, with online tests, and teachers focusing on lectures and follow up with students.
I think the most frustrating thing for parents to see is when kids do not study or misbehave, but you need to realize that things were not better at school, it was simply out of your sight. Frankly, if you think, you have to be a very bad parent to match influence of tens of wild kids that your children are encountering daily.
>> @akuperma are you trolling?
He is, unfortunately, right in certain circumstances. In some corners of Jewish society, more than 50% of people are intermarried. Thus, having a non-Jewish last name increases a chance that the mother is Jewish (unless you are talking about several generations of intermarriage).
I presume this joke was posted here 4 years ago: what is the difference between Donald Trump and a Reform Jew? His grandchildren are Jewish.
>> “There are obviously enough people who are willing to and able to pay a huge premium for matzos they like better.”
> I am one of those peopleThat would only apply to people who do not get public assistance or tuition reduction beyond the full cost (not full price that may include subsidizing others)
At the time of Mishna, some people would have one set of clothes, including talit
DY,
you are saying that you observed someone not being careful. Not sure – not wearing mask? under what conditions? Does it mean you have to follow him?Ask your Rav if you are allowed to wear mask
Ask your Rav if you are allowed to make your minyan safer – mask, SD,
Ask your Rav if you are allowed to make your children and teachers safer by some days keeping them at home and teaching themEr>>The last thing we want is an efficient system of government like the right wing governments Germany and Italy had
Exactly. Italians seem to realize their mistake and they change their governments pretty often. Israelis are trying that too… Could you imagine if either of extreme Israeli parties were in the firm control of the government for 4 years?!
In American system, gridlock is, of course, part of the design. Only items that substantial groups agree to will pass. The danger is the Polish Seim experiment – each member had a veto power and eventually nothing passed, until the country declined and was partitioned by neighbors. Now, suddenly nobody had a vote …
Also, part of the frustration and fight for Presidency is atrophy of local and Congressional democracy. Why do we need feds to decide minimal wage and order of vaccination? Why do we need Presidents issuing EOs when Congress could make a law.
Re: position of Rabbis
I think you need to separate what the Rabbis prescribe as public policy and your personal responsibilities. The Rav may see that if people will stop going to a minyan and children will stop learning in a usual way, the community will disintegrate like happened with previous generations.
And he may be ready to risk his own life to continue teaching.Does it mean that you are not ALLOWED to do what you can to save life and health of people around you, including that Rav?! Let’s clarify that, see below. And if you are allowed, then why wouldn’t you?
Could someone please ask one of these shailos of Rabonim that are pro-opening their communities, or maybe you already asked:
– are you allowed NOT to fly to a Florida vacation?
– are you allowed to wear a mask at the minyan?
– are you allowed to keep windows open during the minyan? if shul would spend extra money on heat, are you allowed to give tzedokah for that amount?
– are you allowed to take one day a week off work and teach your children Torah instead of sending them to school?
etc, etcDY: These rabbonim are paskening that there is no chiyuv to wear a mask
did you hear this first hand? did you ask to clarify – where and under what conditions?
could you please ask the Rav you asked whether it is MUTAR to properly wear a mask under different conditions, such as in the airplane when required, in federal buildings, where it is required, in the offices, where you can be fired, in the stores, in the street, where people see that you are Jewish?
If not, this would mean that this ISSUR to wear a mask is comparable to ISSUR of avoda zara.
Maybe he meant only the masks that have avoda zora painted on them?I have to admit, I feel very bad reading this thread.
I am arguing for wearing masks and people are saying it is hard on them (or on some others). I don’t know how to respond, as I rarely wear a mask myself.
Dr Seuss and other gedolim of English anbd History are being taken out for a reason:
to make space for new programming. Public school programs add new diversified program into schools.As Dr. Seuss is for younger kids, that means that even elementary school is under attack. Expect new generation of AOC-like people growing up.
ISIS used a similar strategy in Syria and Iraq: several years they were allowed to run a quasi-country, they were taking young kids into their schools, teaching them a terrorist curriculum, and in 2-3 years they matured into well-trained young terrorists.
It looks like we are not capable of discussing politics in a kosher way, so maybe we can talk about baseball instead?!
A witness is pasul, if he lies in one aspect of the case, right? Most people here implicated themselves by throwing in false statements borrowed from some cable or newspaper rags. Based on that, we are all not to be believed.
And what is the point of repeating those sources anyway? Can we have a better conversation about this? This is, after all, being watched, recorded, indexed, and searched.