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common, you are attacking a strawman. I am not against expertise. We seem to disagree in these points:
1) you need to struggle to understand Torah according to your ability, not just outsource your halakhic decisions to an expert.2) this especially concerns mitzvot bein adam l’havero and l’atzmo, as the answer depends on the person. So, if you don’t master some understanding, you’ll end up either asking shailos daily, or, more likely, applying right answers to wrong questions.
3) you need to be actually asking shailos- I don’t recall seeing here claiming they asked shailos about permission not to be careful during pandemic. or about permission to be careful if others are not.
coffee >> Sweden didn’t lock down and their deaths didn’t skyrocket
Sweden indeed has indeed death rate average per EU, a but also GDP decrease 5%, so their slow down is a little more than US. As you say in other threads “you have to be there” to analyze specific policies. for example, Swedish secondary class has 22 students, Israeli – 28. Israeli area per student seems to be also 50% less.
>> kumran teffilin
I understand that Qumran artifacts are by sectarians, so may not be representative of Rabbinical tradition. Say, someone digs up a Reform temple with scarf and pink tefillin and use it to argue on Mishna Berurah.
>> I, among many others, lost a job thanks to his terrible policies.
I don’t want to take your suffering likely, but the whole world is suffering. Israeli GDP for 2020 is -6% on par with other developed countries (Norway -3, Poland/US/Finland -4, Sweden/Turkey -5, Germany -6, UK/France/Italy/Greece -10, Spain -12). Given Israeli international connections, it is not bad.
2021 IMF forecast for Israel is +5, getting back to where you were. Out of all countries listed above, seems like only Poland will be +1 after 2 years. A couple of countries Norway, Turkey will be at 0, US and many others at -1. Those who were -10 in 2020, will be -3 to -5 after 2 years …
I know the numbers do not bring you food immediately and there are might be various social factors that can make life difficult, not reflected in GDP, but still you can see that Bibi did not mismanage the economy.
Order R Pliskin’s book “Marriage” and you will get hundreds of real-life examples beating even the most ridiculous CR posts.
On limits to compromise: Kotzker asks why Hashem threw Emes to the ground (rather than Sholom) when there was a 2 against 2 machloket for creating a man? Witohut Emes, easy to do Sholom. Does not apply to home, I think, as the wife is always emes.
MadeAliyah – I understood exactly what you are saying. And I am pointing out your lack of appreciation. Whole world has 10-20% of the country vaccinated, where Israel is alsmot fully vaccinated. No, you are inconvenienced by lockdowns.
common, I agree with you on expertise. I am not sure whether we need to argue here. We seem to disagree though – you consider Torah learning akin to root canal. This is gross. I understand what you are saying that you want to ask hard question of someone more competent. I do not argue on that. This at the same time does take away your responsibility to understand the logic behind ruling, ask questions, and sometimes even to ask further. This is even true with the root canal. Your doctor should explain you the plan, answer your questions, and occasionally change it based on your input.
Syag,
thanks for you suggestion to ask someone else. I appreciate your concern. Do not worry, I did and do learn with people who are probably closer to your attitude of D.T. We all are doing fine.Common, jack of all trades – exactly.
>> how to educate my kids
I heard the names you are quoting, they do sound militant. This does not take away from possible problems in the community. As Hazon Ish mentioned to the Satmar Rebbe, that he is basing budding haredi system on the Rambam – that if one lives in a bad place, he needs to move, and if that is not possible – go to the desert. So, this successful desert community undoubtfully saved many people both in Israel and probably even more in USA. Still, being in the desert has negative sides, and we are well over 40 years at this point.
Re: progressive taxation.
1894 US debate on income tax referred to Biblical source of 10% income tax, and after that used their testament to argue for progressive tax – exempting first $4,000 of income. In practical terms, it made tax very popular and easy to pass as most people were fully exempt. The opponents referred to “not stealing and Rehovoam excessive taxation.>> Israel’s Covid strategy – besides the vaccines which he deserves credit for – was simply put;
So, for those in US who feel slighted that Americans did not give Trump credit for vaccines, here is Bibi who vaccinated more than anyone in the world short of a Rock of Gibraltar – still not good enough for Israelis…
ujm >> presumably, you know the source for Emunas Chachamim.
In a Baraita in a list after Derech Eretz and a good heart? I would refer you to 2007 Essay by R Nachum Rabinowitch “What is “Emunat Ḥakhamim” where he defines Emunas Chachamim to include a very respectful attitude towards halakhic rulings, and a requirement to understand the reasoning behind them, as the individual himself remains responsible for his action (more so in divrei reshut, if I understand him correctly). Many people use Daas Torah somewhat differently. I am not learned enough to know whether Chasam Sofer meant that.
It is also not my intention to analyze Arizal, I’m busy understanding pshat to be so presumptuous to weigh on kabbalah. I thought you asked that question. Unless there are tw2o ujms here (maybe a sitra aherah?).
>> If someone has stock in a chametzdig corporation,
I see quotes By Dayan Shlomo Cohen from Igrot Moshe Even Ha’Ezer 1:7 that an insignificant ownership is not a problem (Rav Cohen’s estimate 3%), and Minhat Yitzhak, Vol. 3 1:11 that it is but be sold with your other hometz. The latter opinion makes investment in treif, shabbat violations, forbidden interest. Badatz offers kosher stocks.
On a lighter nbote, I hope you do not hold HMZ and HMTZ stocks (looks like some Metals and a Russian Chemical plant, but they just do not sound right!)
>> no progressive income tax.
here are a couple of principles I can glean from Bava Basra –
1) taxes should preferably be allocated according to the benefit: paying for the wall may be according to number of people, level of danger, etc. That is, when possible, use “user fees”. For example, gasoline tax or turnpike fees look better than income tax – as long as they pay for the roads themselves.2) apply wisdom, if possible, and use majority if not. A case of a guild who limited competition and then cut the skins of those who broke the rules. They are told that they should go to a Talmid Chacham in their city. If there is none, they are ok to follow majority.
>> Divrei Chaim says sefard not to ashkenaz
I presume he means Chasidic nusach, not nusach Sefardim. I think we need to recognize this as it is – innovations, not supported by previous sources. It may or may not be obvious to the reader when sources are quoted in a line without times. MA (17th cent), Pri Megadim (18th), Diveri Chaim (19th).
Also, according to the summary of the letter in YWN a couple of years ago, Divrei Chaim seems to recommend the practice (a) for refined people, (b) trusting the gedolim of the generation
>> anyone whose soul is refined can rely on the leaders of the generation,Interesting, if we accept that Chasam Sofer was a major innovator of the notion of Daas Torah, then here Divrei Chaim is using DT to overturn Chasam Soifer stand on Tefilah (“with all due respect”, I mean Divrei Chaim to Chasam Soifer). “Refined souls” footnote seem to be forgotten also, as now it is nushach recommended to the whole community. Interestingly, I don’t think Sefardim proper, at least in our times. think that it is good for Ashkenazim to switch Nusach the way (some) Chasidim do.
Common, >> secular education down the throats… Satmar Rebbe Shilta sat side by side.
good example – does it mean they’ll tell everyone to not get secular education? Long ago, one person was invited by the Satmar Rebbe to be a doctor during a yom tov. When they had a minute to talk, he volunteered that he is not just a doctor, that he is getting a semicha soon … The response was – besser rofeh cholim mimatir asurim … Maybe the semicha was too modernishe, but still
Syag: you are missing the basics.
Syag, I asked you and others multiple times to explain your position, either in simple terms or in theory. I even suggested at the top of this thread several references to such controversial MO Rabbis as Vilna Gaon, Netziv, Ball HaTanya. You continue saying that I am not getting it right and not telling me what is right.You seemed appalled with some statements that sound non-controversial to me. To pick an example – that “Daas Torah” (if it exists) is a Democratic (or maybe more precisely, Republican) institution – there is a certain hierarchy with multiple branches up and everyone at each level makes selections whom to ask hard questions and this way Jewish community (hopefully) organizes around a Talmid Chacham. I am aware that Moshe Rabeinu was not selected this way. But this seems how things happen in our days. Is it different in your community? Do you follow a strict hereditary Rebbe – always to the oldest son?
Common: Imagine if Trump did that what ENS, AAQ, Charlie Hall and the rest would be saying
Common, your argument can be extended further: list all crimes that Trump was not proven of, despite everyone from NY to Peter Shtup investingating? With what we now know about NY gov, I presume he made a couple of calls encouraging such investigators. With the business and private life Trump had, you have to be a tzaddik gamur, not to have anything found in almost 6 years already. Latest I read in a lib rag that someone wants to compel son of Trump’s accountant to cooperate based on him not paying taxes when Trump let the guy live on his property for free.
I had to double-check whether the article was not about Jimmy Carter or Mother TeresaTOI >> The gemara says
you meant “gemOra” because Sephardi GemArah is apparently OK with the vertical.
And stop disturbing shalom in Reb Eliezer’s home! from his description of his family, he is doing _something_ right! maybe it is a proof that his 22.5 degree mezuzah is working
>> Tur and Shulchan Aruch long preceded Chasidus.
There are Chasidim all over Gemorah. It is like “liberals” and old-time “Liberals”….Even then, they did not always lived to the name. The one in Bava Basra 7b built a gate house and poor would not come to him (your theme, Charlie!), so Eliahu stopped coming.
by the way, could someone help me answer a basic question about this – did not the Chasid realize that he was wrong after Eliahu stopped coming?! If yes, did not he take the gate house down?! If yes, sounds like Eliahu still did not come back?! Does it mean that the character flaw of not thinking what could happen is that great?
charlie >>Well I wish we did have Netanyahu as the US head of government
Charlie, you understand, of course, that were you to live in Israel and have similar political views to the ones you have now – you would be cursing Bibi left and right and explaining why he did not do anything to get vaccines, they appeared by themselves. Maybe thinking this over could make you think about hidden biases that diminish our thinking abilities.
>> much more generous welfare state.
Not always. It is somewhat hard to compare policies across mutiple times and income levels, but again we have arguments for being generous and for having limits:
We have an argument that even a poor person has to have Pesach wine EVEN MIN hatamhui! usually, a person is eligible for public food if he does not have food for 2 meals. [similar to medicaid requirement to have no more than $2,000 or something like that]. At other times, a person “should make his shabbat like chol” but not ask for support. At the swame time, we are supposed to maintain a rich person at his level (this sounds like a distinction between unemployment and welfare).THere are several agadot, I think in Bava Kamma, about poor people asking for “stuffed chicken”, one does not get it, is offered same beans as Rav (?) himself is eating and dies fromn it. In the other case, Rav(?)’s sister arrives at that very moment from far away and brings a “stuffed chicken” with her.
I thin this is “complicated”
Charlie: They inderstood 1500 years ago that markets are imperfect
Maybe I was too brief – R’ Huna’s solution was specifically to combine charity with market power. The market was “imperfect” before his intervention, he enabled/”made the market” (same thing that midrash mentions about Yaakov): R’ Huna waited till the end of the market to buy leftovers. Farmers, who would know R’Huna would buy leftovers, would not hesitate to bring a little more perishables, thus lowering the prices to benefit poor people. Furthermore, he will _not_ distribute food he bought. If he were, the poor will not buy on the market and wait for his charity. Question was asked – how could he waste that food? answer – “throwing down the river” means people in other places (not connected to this market) will pick it up. Similar to USDA buying extra food from US farmers and donating overseas.
It shows that it is possible to pursue both goals – economic activity and charity. You may have to do trade-offs some time, but you need to keep both in mind.
I obviously don’t know who the author is, but if his occupation is Toirah Learning (as implied by “bein hazmanim” reference), then where did the minhag of taking vacations start? I understand that bein hazmanim in Gemorah referred to a need to go home and work the field.
Netziv was convinced by family and doctors to take a vacation on Lithuanian lakes. He ran away back home from boredom. Rav Salanter did go to the “waters”, but did not eat mehadrin on the way because he was using OPM (other people’s money). This would not apply if you earn your own money, of course.
They would not call him אשכנזי for no reason! you would not be called a “New Yorker”, if everyone around you were New Yorkers …. But he definitely was not a Litvak or a Galitzianer!
Charlie >> Regarding business conduct the Torah is arguably to the left of Bernie Sanders
This is an interesting topic. You can find both pro-business and pro-worker laws in the Torah. Obviously, and Can we be more specific with the claims?
for example, we have a Gemora how Talmidei Chachamim tried to ban yetzer hara when coming back from Bavel (Sanhedrin 64)- and caused a chicken recession. We see here that yes we want people to not follow their own interest and desires, but economy is not working without it. A pro-business President Coolidge said something similar to his wife, but this is a family website.Rav Huna had some ideas about helping poor (Taanit 20b): he would break dangerous walls. If the owner could afford it, he would have to rebuild himself. If not, R Huna would (not sure, whether it means as his private charity or community funds). More interesting is his approach to an imperfect market where farmers bring food into the city. He did not buy food to feed the poor so they would not rely on him. Instead, he would pay farmers for left-over food and send it down the river. That is, farmers are not afraid to bring more food and, thus, there will be more competition and poor will get cheaper food. So, he worried about helping poor, keeping them independent, and making economy better.
Common end haverav – you are not providing any positive explanations – what did you ask, what was the answer you got, and, hopefully, an explanation why this course of action is better than the other.
Explanation may help us understand to whom your ruling would be applicable.And you are continue confusing me – so public pronouncements by Roshei Yeshivot are not of interest to anyone? Nobody follows Roshei Yeshivot but instead ask their own Rav? Do Roshei Yeshivot not have students? I am very confused by your claims.
Common, you are right, I probably last been in Lakewood when R Wachtfogel Z’L was alive. I do keep us with the new. but in this case seeing is probably better than hearing indeed. So, thanks for assuring me that these were not yeshiva-connected people who did not listen to Roshei Yeshivot, but some Brooklyn transplants.
Syag, Common, I am trying to learn from people here how they use daas Torah, and so far, I am coming empty-handed. I may have missed some posts, but I did not see anyone confirming that they personally asked a shaila and what kind of an answer they got. If you asked but were sworn to secrecy, just say so, I’ll respect that.
Syag > You cannot apply global statistics to a specific area.
While this is a great truth in general, and an area of my study and parnasah in particular, I think you are using this notion to support your denial. Are you saying that people in your area are great tzadikim have better outcomes than others? I think it is generally not recommended to draw on your zehuyot in this world. It could be that you are defining your community too narrow, so that you are randomly lucky. As an illustration, there is research showing that death rate in nursing homes is 50% higher when they are located near universities, with COVID unwittingly brought there by nurses who are also enrolled in school, despite them being careful. Would an individual nurse or a college student observe that connection? No.
MadeAliya > Interesting idea, but I personally prefer to be open about my bias.
Agree. This is 2nd best thing to trying to question your bias.
> Israeli right-wing parties are conservative but not libertarian.
Also, agree. Bibi is probably the first pro-business PM, previous Likudniks were on the right politically
but still reasonably pro-government on economics.Don’t make Arizal responsible for Jews in Ukraine or Belorussia changing their minhagim. They made their own decisions.
Syag: unless you literally cut yourself off from all living beings, you probably got it somewhere in the following 12 months. Stop thinking everyone who got covid was negligent or ignorant
I am absolutely not claiming that everyone who got sick is at fault. And it is obvious that people have different circumstances – some taking care of patients or relatives, some send kids to grandparents because there is nowhere else to go, etc. At the same time, I am rejecting your fatalism that if it is dangerous out there, then we should give up on precautions. If I understand your description, you people are not very careful, then some of the sick people are due to your being not careful. You semi-acknowledge that those in your area who were slightly more careful got it a year later. This is, of course, already a great thing, as you are saying – as medical treatment now is better, about half of people getting sick a year later will pass away.. it is a big difference.
common >> @AAQ, how about I was in Lakewood and saw it first hand the purim went on as normal
I did not use google to tell me what happens in Lakewood on Purim. I used it to find Rabonim asking for precautions. It would be sad if you are right and all these youngeles did not hear or did not listen … I wish they were able to go to a yeshiva that teaches them to respect their elders.
I am still thinking that things are not as bad as you are saying. It is a matter of perception – we see people out and about and do not see those who are sitting at home. When I read YWN article about Ponevezh Rosh Yeshiva having a first public shiur in a year, and only to vaccinated students, I thought I never saw mentioned that he was not in public. Probably, there are other like that. So, I acknowledge your personal observation but refuse to believe lashon hara that noone listens to Rabbis at Lakewood.
Emes>> As the Republican party refuses to deal with climate change
What is your position on green nuclear energy? It should be able to save the world.
AJ – interesting note. Indeed, seems like the groups that abruptly changed minhagim (to be fair – mostly towards Jewish minhagim from other groups), are now the most militant in holding to them …Could one use this as a reason to return to previous minhagim? On one hand, the new minhag is a multi-generation neder. On the other hand, someone might say that he is shocked to discover that his great-grand-father was a Litvak and, were his ancestors more aware of this fact and how the matzo balls taste, they would surely have eaten it!
PS The slippery part of this logic is that Chassidim might have tasted matzo balls on the 8th day, but one can argue that they lost the art or that matzo balls taste special on the first day of Pesach
RebE: between Rashi and Tosfas whether to place the mezuza horizantialy or verticaly
your compromise is that you have a mezuza at the angle that nobody likes. We just put 2 mezuzot. Or you can have 2 entrances and multiple rooms with mezuzot at random angles. Or no mezuzot, as shalom bais is a bigger segulah than mezuzah.
CTLawyer: ‘uninvolve’ your families
There is another wise advice – let (mothers)-in-laws take a position to support the other side of the family in the dispute.
One old book on ethnic psychology in the chapter on Jews says that the Jewish families differ as, instead of each person following advise given to him specifically, start all discussing roles of everyone else. Like this room.
common – I just googled that Lakewood Rabbonim called for various safety measures and reduced fesitivities. Are you saying that people disregarded that? I presume you simply saw people who came and did not see people who did not come. And those who came are not careful all the time, so half were already immune. Where I live, there is a pretty representative group of people from Lakewood, some recent arrivals, and while a larger number of them walking maskless is larger than in other populations, there are a lot who are complying with government and Rabbi’s orders.
common, how do you know it is “in spite” and not because many were careful? Also, with elderly people getting vaccinated, b’ezrat Hashem, there will be less visible signs
MadeAliya, I am the center. Everyone on the right of me is a Nazi, everyone on the left of me – a Commie. Try using this attitude, it really works! Common is mistaking mask wearing for left-of-centre.
Seriously speaking, there are multiple dimensions in politics – economic, social, international. For example, Israeli haredi parties are on the right are on the right socially, but on the left economically. US 2-party system forces people into two large camps, which has a lot of benefits, but clarity of mind is not one of them.
RebE >> The rich use more government infrastructure, so they need to pay more taxes.
I agree, this is a great way to estimate. Well, rich would pay more in taxes even without progressive taxation, just as a percentage of their higher income. What do we want from the government? some protection is per person – and that should be a “hetzi shekel”, same amount for everyone. Life has the same value. Other protection is for property – and that should be progressive: the more property someone has, the more he benefits from the government.
A medical observation: there are several esteemed CR mebers who have enormous erudition and chesed in some aspects – some in Midrashim, others in Science, but then fall to pretty generic unsupported statements when Pres Trump’s shadow appears in the topic. We should stop worrying about long COVID and start worrying about, lo aleinu, long TDS. Refuah Shleimah.
MadeAliyah: Trump haters spew easily debunked ‘motzi shem ra’ too.
Why don’t we all stop? This is a Jewish forum, after all. I don’t think halakha allows being first in lying or second. I suggest making genuine arguments, rather then repeating what you saw on another channel.
em, not sure where your partner is holding, but right now you can go through Pesach – from Hagada to cleaning and product kashrus. Use zoom/whatsapp to review the labels, matza quality and maybe even search for missed hametz 🙂
Gadol,
2017 tax law had specific goals. It was, after all, a _tax_ law. You may disagree with them. fine.
Current is the “covid relief” bill that incorporates numerous policy items. News items discuss checks to taxpayers, leaving the policy almost unmentioned. That is my objection here. I am not discussing policy preferences.RebE,
according to my quick test, you can cram 25K bills into a cubic ft. You can re-test at home using your stimulus funds.I don’t usually get payoffs in egg boxes, what is the size used by meir’s generous donors?
PS shoebox dollar carrying capacity was litigated in Brooklyn District Court in 2005 during Gotti trial.
CTLawyer, you are right – some states won, some lost, with -0.4% on average accordin to today’s WSJ. Here is their list from the bottom up to -2%: several big R- states among quite some of D-s:).
Alaska Oregon Hawaii North Dakota Nevada (-9) Florida (-8) Texas (-7) Montana Louisiana Oklahoma (-4) West Virginia Minnesota Connecticut (-2) New Hampshire Pennsylvania New York
here is the top down to +3%, not overwhelmingly D- or R-:
Arizona (-40) Nebraska (-12) Rhode Island Vermont Alabama Colorado South Dakota Utah IdahoI am not sure what is a fair way to help out several bottom states, maybe by supporting their struggling industries, looks like hospitality and oil?, or by indeed giving all states some reasonable amounts. Total US state revenue is $2.1T, local is $1.6T. So, $400B would be 10% of their total budget. This seems out of proportion of the problem – there are only 7 states with this type of reduction.
RebE: The rich do not grow the economy, if they don’t do capital investment to provide jobs.
Agreed. And, presumably, that is what they do. You are quoting someone who tries to convince you that “at this moment”, rich are not using their money productively (buybacks?!) – and thus we should take it from them and do better. I know Hashem decides who is rich, but I don’t think he delegated this to the federal government.
Either this is “partially correct” information – do we fully know where money goes – or, for some reason, investors temporarily are not investing. Maybe they feel that it is too risky or there is less incentive due to anticipated taxes, or there are less taxes in other countries. Either way, it is either a temporary rational decision, or something that can be fixed by better economic policies. For example, Obama was threatening companies that moved headquarters from US with no effect, Trump reduced corp taxes and companies came back.
akuperma, interesting comparison w/ Reagan.
Reagan had very specific ideas that he was able to articulate and lead others with that.
Biden lacks these, although, I would agree that he has some principles that he was able to articulate and can use to guide his positions even if he is not fully there.But someone would need to keep him in check. This is a favor that media does to Republicans, but not always to Democrats. Obama would have benefited from having his policies discussed in the open. His intuition for a beer summit was a good one.
MadeAliya is asking a good question – where is the boundary for risk? What does Gemora mean by “saving one life = saving the whole world”. I understand halakhic guidelines as what is seen as normal in daily activity. This is, of course, relative. There were times during human history where COVID would not be considered much comparing with damage by other illnesses and by people to each other ….
But before doing a cut-off, we need to first order threats according to their danger and describe costs of preventing them, and then apply some limits based on danger and costs. Naturally, Jewish considerations might be different from US government .. for example, there is an issue of your own decision in a famous case where you are at the wheel of a train that is going to hit 5 people, are you allowed to turn to the different track where you will hit “just” 1 person…
but, back to basics:
it seems that current COVID dangers are way over car crashes and flu. So, it is worth paying attention to before addressing flu.
what about costs – many here listed mental, learning, societal costs. Ok, so let’s list what we can do to address COVID sorting from those that are easy on people. At the same time, some might be machmir especially on themselves if they value their Yiddishkeit.Some simple ideas, tell me whether you are doing them or are they high maintenance?
– open windows in shul and school
– not flying for vacation
– ordering delivery from the store instead of going there
– learning with your child for one day a week, or forming a small group with neighbors, instead of sending to a crowded school
– going one time less to shul, or not talking there, or not staying for kiddushSome of this may require a small effort or even cots, but, I think, not more than shlepping to buy shmurah matza or buying an esrog mehadrin. Presumably, those who are not machmir in this, simply do not consider this a mitzvah, but just a consideration that they can entertain lightly “how about the flu”, rather than asking shailos and learning tosafos.