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RebE, could you clarify what your Rebbe said – was he concerned with learning material? grades? just general attitude? school overall test (I don’t think there was this pressure on schools at your times)
To the OP question: we have a definition that Torah is someone’s occupation meaning a person spending all available time off work in learning. So, if he comes home from work and watches TV for an hour, he is not. If he stayed an extra hour at work instead, then he is.
So, same for a student: if he is busy learning material relevant to parnosa, ensuring that he will not join listim, then he is a ben Torah. If he wastes time in some way, then he is showing that he is not.
> and anyways their wives do laundry
Ask your rov, but a psak from mine is that the husband should not let the wife to launder husband’s clothes. Maybe not everything is included, I did not ask to clarify.
We actually learned a chumra today – everyone is talking about the NYT “investigation” and we related that to Moris Ayn and how anything Jews do “can and will be used against us” (something I learned from my grandparents based on their old world experiences) and that we should be erliche and yashar in what we are doing. What chumras did your kids/grandkids learn today?!
Kiev Rus, I think, got swept by Mongols like everyone else up to Hungary. Moscow somehow emerged as a new player later on under Mongols – some say that Moscow centralization and cruelty are coming from their Mongol origins, this is not a fact, but an opinion that might come from their enemies as you are saying. But the fact that area of Moscow (probably a village at the time) was a remote part of Kievan state does not make Russians the owner of that. If you wish, this is like Canadian appointing a new King because they used to be part of the Empire… In fact, if you insist that there is a kesher, then Ukraine should be in charge of Moscow.
The analogy with Palestinians makes a lot of sense though. As my Israeli friend quipped about some peace negotiations: why do I want to be a cousin of people who kill their own brothers. Same, if Russians are claiming that Ukrainians are their brothers, then why do they send Chechens to kill 10,000s of the brothers, and now destroy power for millions. This is not the way we generally understand “achicha”.
I think some of you have perverse view of what is going in public schools, focusing on the most outrageous aspects. Not saying that the outrageous parts are not dangereous, but still. Just a random day today: high school world history, teaches various MidEastern cultures, including “ancient Israelites”, with their Torah being one of the influences on modern civilization. A table of 10 commandment confuses my kid: why do they say “4 commandments” about religion and 6 about society, when it should be 5 and 5!? So, turns out the chachamim took Catholic version of 10 comm – skipping first one, and dividing 10th into things and wife separately. So, we learned about that, pondered whether it is good or bad for non-Jews to know 10 comm, noticed that Shabbat became “day of rest” in English, losing connotation to a specific day of the week, etc. Plus couple of Naviim that were relevant to history. Granted, not every school day is a Jewish history day, and trains still need to get from A to B on most days.
Dems recently admit to encouraging extremists. They were recently paying for ads to ensure that more extreme Republicans win in primaries, while at the same time claiming that extreme Republicans are a danger for the country. So, they may be also using government actions as a tool to get Trump more active. for example, there is a “tradition” for the government not to do things that might affect elections a couple of months before. Mar-a-lago raid happened despite that and will probably continue through this period with not much protest…
Adaraba, they are getting precious chinuch in how to relate to chol subjects. They get to understand that only loser goyim can speak English and math & science are worthless and incomprehensible (admittedly, you can learn same lesson in many public schools also). As one Rav who happen to teach history for one year instead of limudei kodesh, introduced himself when we met (again): “Hi, I am a goyishe teacher” – in the words of his students, despite his kapota and untrimmed beard.
mdd1, very interesting. I googled Daniil Galickij. This is the confusion I mentioned:
They were “Rutenian”. This has nothing to do with modern “Russia”. Google “Moscow” – and see that Moscow kingdom started way after that and it will take centuries until it will get to western places, primarily through Ukrainian Khmelnitsky who rebelled against Poles (and Jews) and tried to “partner” with Moscovites and got rolled over, of course. After that, Russia went to fight Turkey and small nations to take over Crimea and other places in the South. At the end of WW2, Soviets expelled Crimean Tatars to the Gulag (with huge life loss, as usual), and populated it with Russian peasants. These re-populated peasants are now the “natives” that Russia is “protecting”. Please add this piece of history to your puzzle.For Polish _Lwow_ itself, 100 years ago, 20% of the city belonged to Ukrainian Catholics, 30% Jews, rest – Poles. 85% spoke Polish, 10% Ruthenian. This was typical for cities at that time – Poles and Jews were in the cities. Possibly, peasants around were more Ruthenian.
> Are you living off of $12,000 a year to maximize your learning? And since when did you get the authority to create shittos?
I did at some point, at exactly that amount actually for a couple of years. Right now, unfortunately, I do not stop at that. My business is such that my success is dependent on the totality of effort and supervision of others, so it is really hard to limit myself, especially as I enjoy what I am doing and, hopefully, bringing something useful to the world. I wonder whether I could work 2 hours a week as you are suggesting if I were in some per hour profession, like a lawyer, a plumber, or a surgeon?! I am afraid that I would not (and most other people are probably in the same position). Feel free to criticize me further or give me hizuk ideas.
re:authority. As with everyone, I get my masorah from my Parents and Teachers. Most of them encouraged independent thinking and asking questions. In a proper way, of course, they’ll correct me if I ask questions in a wrong way. R Steinsaltz z’l used to say that Arabs have 100 synonyms for sand, Eskimos for snow, and Jews – for the word “question”. R Shapiro z’l said that while it is normal for people to learn for many years and only then teach, but, when needed, it is a mitzva for one who learnt alef-beis or chumash or mishna, to teach that (and he actually pointed to a couple of people in the audience who were doing that).
Dim your screen.
For those who are not sure of the news, keep in mind that this terrible war is the most transparent war: it is happening with both sides having cellphones, speaking same language, being right in Europe, and with large armies marching in the full view of drones and satellites. Sides can blame atrocities on each other and argue about history and who is a bigger Nazis, but it is well documented where the troops are, what is being bombed, and where the mass murder victims are buried.
> city of Lemberg
this ain’t the only one. We were just learning in Ketubot about a miser who has property but asks for government subsidy, whether trying to cheat or out of insecurity. The answer is – we give it to him now, and then subtract from his estate.
Russia has the same insecurity – they own so much real estate and they still want someone else’s, even as they are barely managing the one they have. They even want real estate in the past, claiming that Ukraine is part of Russia … because original “Russia” was in Kyiv a 1,000 years ago. This is like some Arabians moving to EY, calling themselves “Palestinians” and then saying that they have yerusha as Philistines (and with the capital in Mecca).
> such as double parking on 13th Ave erev shabbos
R Avigdor Miller says that when Moschiach comes, beis din will punish double-parking with malkos! If you think this is extreme, this is a bad sign. Maybe you need to go back, learn some seforim until you align your thinking with the gadol. That is, I don’t think you might be lacking stam in halochos of sakono, I am sure you know what happens on the street, so there is a bigger hashkofo problem here.
> and going to a different school is not easy.
This is the problem. We need to have competition between schools or teachers. It is _literally_ the halakha.
It is business 101 for competitors to create differing products instead of competing on price. This works well for products you can not easily evaluate. So, if a mattress company creates a “unique” mattress (mostly by having a unique product name), they win. If consumers or government force a standard (such as USB, where U stands for Universal), then you can suddenly pay $1 for a disk that was previously $50 when each disk had a unique interface.
So, if we can several yeshivas, or just teachers, teaching stam Chumash and Gemorah and compete with each other, all Yidden will benefit.
thought experiment: what if the heilicke East Ramapo school board open an actual public school? They can hire teachers, control curriculum, establish dress code, expel for using bad language. Can they avoid coed? Maybe they can make limudei kodesh in the morning and chol in the afternoon. Imagine a kiddush Hashem when the next generation of Hispanic politicians, proud graduates of Monsey Elyon, in suits and hats, will speak Spanish with light Yiddish accent.
As RebE, you can pass GED. How much effort is really needed to pass _minimal_ requirements for an American high-schooler?! Maybe you can teach math and American history in Yiddish – or Aramaic? Bein Adams vehavero: Inyan of machlokes Yefferson ve’Adams vedrakei shalom. Vemetu b’yom ehad. Elu vElu …
We live in a complicated world; and no man is an island, even of they are an island like YU … You get some entanglements. Is a threat of some marginal club worse than some other monkey business currently in the news, like getting paid for transportation “regardless of distance to school” and transportation contracts that the state wants to oversee for some reason, according to some questionable reporting. You can’t have an absolutist position on one tiny issue. Need to look at benefits and shortcomings of the institution as a whole.
How about putting a dorm in Boro Park and see who stays.
RebE, I think, these are different organizations. Note that some other yeshivot register in a similar way, judging that they publish their graduation statistics as required by Ed. Dept, see another thread. So, theoretically, a similar club can be attempted, h’v, in other places, unless YU wins the case, BEH.
Gadol > I can’t recall the last time I needed a “pen”
Strange for a thinker and a traveler like you! Rogachover used to put a wet towel on his head to cool his thoughts down. I am using a pen and paper in my pocket to write down thoughts when travelling (you can recognize me this way). Maybe, you just post on YWN immediately and you need to keep your thoughts organized.
ujm > mdd, are you suggesting that we need to thank Stalin?
USSR murdered Jews – rabbis, businessmen, anyone who was against communists, introduced shmad in Russia, Ukraine. When they started WW2 together with Nazis, they did the same in Poland, Lita, Latvia, Bessorabia killing & arresting both Jews and non-Jews … Maybe Sara Rifka need to read or talk to those who survived (like R Feinstein, Menachem Begin, Mir Yeshiva, etc). A lot of people, including Rabonim, including did not talk publicly about it but their views are known. When they were consulted about activities to support Jews left in Russia, R Teitz, R Feinstein, Lubavicher Rebbe all favored secret activities or private agreements and were afraid of angering NKVD with public actions. As you see, so many people drink bad tea and fall from windows even in our days. Think, how this was probably happened when Stalin/USSR was in full power (Trotsky, for example).
In terms of improving things, I think having very large schools is a problem, leading to low responsiveness. I am not sure why we need such. Take a small group of kids of same age, hire 1-3 teachers and have a class in a house or a shul. Next year, you go to another teacher. This is how, for example, R Ruderman and R Kamenetsky learned in Lita. They did complain about one teacher who did not respect students enough, so presumably the rest were fine.
eddiee > I only question anyone’s right to demand that they change the way they operate.
This is an interesting point to discuss. While, yes, school is a private business, both American law and halakha treat education differently from food. In halakha, usual competition restrictions and neighbor rights are suspended, for example – you can open a new school right new the old, and you can have kids making noise in the yard. So, when a school becomes a community institutions, they become responsible to the good of the community and have to take kids’ interests into account. So, if you feel schools are under-performing in some aspects, you should have a right to (respectfully) voice your concerns both privately and publicly and deserve to hear an answer.
common, thanks, omen. I need to wrap my head around these multi-tier takonos. I guess it is due to our Rabonim not really having full jurisdiction over kehilos. I would go back ask the Rav who explained the system to me, maybe he meant that this is propagated in his sub-community.
Another thought on “top yeshivos” from another thread. In Europe, you did not have to learn in a particular yeshiva, you can just visit a Rav, he will examine you and give you a semicha. Maybe we need to ask Roshei Yeshivot to provide a similar service and/or have standardized Gemorah test that someone can pass. Anyone does it?
L’havdil, you can go to a 3rd rated college and then pass GRE or LSAT, and then even bar. So, even when you have credentials, you do not get full monopoly and corresponding side effects.
anon > is the lack of non commissioned officers.
This is not a bug, but a general feature of communist regimes, whether USSR, Norks or CCP: you are supposed to follow the party line. If you do something and it works, your bosses will own it (cf. Obama’s “you didn’t build it”. If you are wrong, you go to Siberia. No incentives to do anything unless told and then, only when forced to.
Ray > how is chasing away the mother for no tachlis showing mercy?
How is this mitzva is so special, as it is one of the 74 mitzvos in Ki Tetse. More effort is required to catch a girl in the war, raise a glutton kid, lo aleinu, hang stoned criminals, build a fence on the roof, get married and then tell lashon haro about her, then divorce her, and then not divorce her depending on circumstances, buy a portable toilet before a trip, get interest from non-Jews, do halitza and remember Amalek.
common > feel free to join the conversation
middos alert. Why not help educate me and others.
It is a business trivia – you can not improve what you do not measure. Thus, tests should be first step that will motivate to go further and free us from positive and negative biases.
Maybe Israeli school have some basic literacy tests in Hebrew and Chumash? Maybe those can be adjusted for generic observant public? I think every parent should get access to test results for his own kid and for the class in general, both in kodesh & chol, to make rationale decisions.. There is also research how to evaluate teacher quality using test results: you don’t look at just the class test as it is affected by who goes to that class, but you measure comparative improvement for each students from year to year.
anon, thanks, I guess my sources are too optimistic
common, you probably see from my questions that I am only planning to. On masechet Ketubot right now 🙂
are there any tests for Torah subjects that allow comparing schools and monitor student progress?
ymribiat, yes, these numbers require more to be analyzed. These are just the first I found.
yes it is 0-1 share.more from the same list.
SEMINAR L’MOROS BAIS YAAKOV 0.215
TALMUDICAL SEMINARY OHOLEI TORAH 0.336
UNITED TALMUDICAL SEMINARY 0.223a note o the term – “Secular” means unrelated to religion. I think this is coming from a different religion and is apikoirosus.
Hashem created the Newton’s apple and Mendel’s peas and taught us to count days. A legitimate discussion of whether we should spent time marveling at Hashem’s creation, finishing what he gave us l’asos, or just focus on the seforim that he gave is should not confuse us about the Creator of the World.
Yserbius, the changes in economy in last 100 years are such that rather than having a small number of business parnasim and lots of poor yidden, we have a large group of middle-class self-supporting people who are not ultra-rich, unless they are in high-tech or finance. More observant community kept more of the old structure. I don’t know what would be the totals. Census numbers might tell you some of the story.
Lost > it happen to a Shul nearby where every young family is working themselves into the ground trying to make ends meet
In my areas, there are schools where both modern professionals and Jewish professionals sent their kids. I presume about 40% of modern family tuition is paid to support the other group. Jewish professionals contribute by working as teachers for low salaries, and during summer – for camps.
Avira > i was there – go teach in satmar and find out
Right, but we need to learn to defend ourselves without experiencing everything ourselves. Your arguments are full of self-confidence, but YSerbius disagrees. Any possible way you can construct a verifiable argument?
Lost: A yeshiva with a staff for secular studies is twice the budget, or the MO dayschool model.
Your following description is similar to what I see in MO model. It is (also) not sustainable. Both parents exhausted working full time to pay for schools, kids seeing this are not so excited, and all other problems given that not all kids are observant in school …
As to the cost of general studies in schools, I think it can be gradually improved at limited cost, provided there is a will and recognition of the problem. Use computer-based classes, focus on those kids whose parents want to give them extra general studies, obtain government funds for general studies.
LostSpark> if there is a long game strategy to undermine the yeshivos that lay hidden behind the idea of compulsory education.
I doubt that. Idea of universal education arrived to US with Puritans and worked well (comparative to the alternative). I listened with kids to Ellis Island recordings of Jews saying how happy they were when they were able to go to a free high school (one girl’s father was saving for years for her high school back in Poland). Jewish schools in NY area were able to not be fully complaint due to their political efforts. When you rely on politics, there is always a political risk, especially when you are still a minority…
maybe we need a middarly in addition to grammarly: check your post for possible hurting words before you post.
common, b’H. I am confused though – takanot are supposed to be for everyone, how could you have halls “in all price ranges”. maybeyou mean that some cities have takanot and others do not.
Found an explanation for another point where I was confused whether there are work and income restrictions for various programs. Turns out I am behind the times … March 2020 Covid law included suspension of medicaid income and food stamp work requirements for the time of pandemic (even if states want them)
Also, on covid pandemic, as most people and businesses qualified, it is probably not even a gift but a tax refund, or just currency debasement leading to inflation. Not accepting it is like not accepting tax refund or accepting that your money is now worth 10% less. So, this becomes a matana from you to (mostly) non-Jews and this is questionable according to sources I quoted above.
An excuse that the recipient will do something for you is not applicable – do you expect IRS to pick up your phone call faster if you won’t accept the money!?
> yet wedding halls are booked solid for months,
in addition to B’H large number of eligible young people, maybe there is economics in play?
is this in takanah places? Maybe it is a side effect – any artificially reduced price leads to scarcity.
For example, many people from my area travel there for a wedding.> is there anything available from a man?
why would you want an inferior product?!
Women score better on English and Reading ACT.
Some estimate that women say 20K words a day, 3 times more than men. They are definitely bekiyot.I found an unbiased source that validates Jared’s work (biased the other way to be precise). Albert Bourla, Pfizer, wrote a book about vaccine development. His language overall shows that his thinking is generally center-left. He is careful not to bash people and is putting some praise and some blame on people, but not too much. He also makes a lot of lame excuses for moments when he did not do something possibly for partisan reasons.
He describes how Trump made a quick meeting of business people when Covid just started, says that while most people taked about drugs, his rep mentioned vaccines and Trump immediately supported that (B seemed to have an excuse to not come to the meeting). Then, he does not mention T until describing in detail T’s attempt to get test results before elections and mentioning that T was an only head of state that did not congratulate him on that. So, definitely, no love lost.
So, he mentions that (way after the election), he was having problems with some gov people buying additional vaccines late (despite B’s telling them before) and trying to get him into new contract negotiations and lose months on that. So, Jared heard about it and called him on his cell unprompted, asked to describe the issues, agreed that gov was not doing the right thing, and resolved the issue in several days.
Other tidbits from the book:
very positive on Bibi: Bibi called him during Israeli night without scheduling like all others; teleconned all lawyers and resolved problems on the spot; worried about B’s own taking vaccine; worked out a deal to get vaccines in exchange for being a “test country” by providing large-scale statistics. This data helped identify onset of Delta early in June 2021 and prove that efficacy against Delta falls with time, leading to immediate decision on boosters (Fauci first got angry about conclusions made without him, but then agreed). Bennett was also knowledgeable. B; has also a lame excuse that his 2nd vaccine (that he controlled timing of) was given too late to pass Israeli law – so he did not come to Israel before election that Bibi lost…– positive on Boris Johnson (also knowledgeable and pro-active), EU President von der Layen (she is now in trouble in EU for helping him go around EU long paperwork), Pence (called after election to thank, did not mention the late results after election).
– in love with Biden (2 pictures, Jill touched him once …) but does not mention any specific action.
Mentions several episodes when Biden’s team undermined him (agreeing with WHO to give away IP), but no attempt to work with Biden on these …– Kamala is mentioned only in 3rd person (unfortunately, some politicized the vaccine before the election …)
– stories about his Greek Jewish families escaping Shoah
– not only Bourla is Jewish, so is his head of product development (from Sweden), they both hesitated for a moment to use Israel as the test country, thinking that they can be accused of something here …> Which Acharonim allowed you to accept or use the non-Jewish cash sent to you by Uncle Sam during the Covid pandemic?
ujm, thanks for giving me an opportunity to review halochos of matonos (that is what it was, right?)
Sources below are from “Halachically speaking” v 16-1 by Kof-K R Moishe Dovid Lebovits. I did not review them yet, feel free to help review them.it is indeed praiseworthy not to accept gifts!
Rambam Hilchos Zichiyah V’matanah 12:17. Brachos 10b Rashi, Maharsha
S’A C.M. 249:5.
one who avoids presents will definitely avoid stealing
one who accepts presents will constantly want money. Furthermore, one will come to flatter those who give him gifts. If one sees a person who gave him gifts doing something wrong, he will not rebuke him.13 In addition, one who receives gifts thinks that he will live off the gifts and neglects to realize that everything is from Hashem
If one receives a present from a non-Jew, the first reason would not apply in this case since one may not flatter a non-Jew, but the others reasons may still apply. Many are lenient and say that it does not apply to a present from a non-Jew.Mishneh Halachos 15:215 If someone is lacking and does not have what to live on, he may accept gifts. This did not apply to me, but did presumably to those who lost jobs. Frankly, all jobs were uncertain at the time.
R Belsky (no specific page given): There is no issue with accepting WIC checks from the government as one pays taxes and this is not considered taking gifts. This should kal vehomer apply to Covid funds to those who pay more taxes than getting back.
OK to accept small gifts (Sifsei Chachamim, Bereishis 12:13, Mishneh Halachos 17:137). These checks were definitely way less that what I sent the government.
some other interesting halochos:
If one who is learning wishes to accept money from his parents in order for him to continue learning, there is no issue of soneh matanos.
Any gift a parent gives to a child is not included in soneh matanos. It is considered a mitzvah since giving gifts to one’s child brings the parent and child closer, positively impacting the child.
Even if a woman is careful and wishes not to accept presents during the year from her husband because she does not want to accustom herself to presents, in honor of Yom Tov she may accept presents
Others mention that when the Yevanim ruled over Eretz Yisrael, learning Torah was not allowed. When Klal Yisrael was victorious over them, the children were given money to entice them to learn. Therefore, the custom evolved to give out money on ChanukahOne is forbidden to give a non-Jew a gift. However, if one will benefit from giving the non-Jew a present, it is permitted. Based on this, it is customary to give one’s mailman a present during the non-Jewish holiday season
Additionally, the poskim say that if one has a personal relationship with the non-Jew he may give him a present even if he will not receive any benefit in return
> We need to think about the economic impact of Mashiach
Have bigger emunah than naarim ketanim who were upset that Elisha cured waters in Yericho and their jobs went away. There will be politicians who will argue that they are the true moschiach party and the blogs with insider information.
> They didn’t interview a single average chasidishe businessman – that’s where they mostly go. And they’re very, very successful in business. They’re also very creative;
This is true, but both sides – NYT and bloggers lack hard data in support of their position. Say, NYT quotes millions going to schools but do not divide it per student. Arguments here are similar baseless.
Maybe we can try producing some numbers that will show something that all sides can acknowledge?Standardized tests would be one. I don’t buy Avira’s argument about minhag of filling tests randomly. If they knew the material, they would fill it out. But maybe they were studying probability theory…. Some of the schools my kids went did state or private school tests but did not disclose results to parents, maybe others know.
There are also some zip codes that are mostly Jewish. We can look at census data: their average incomes, poverty rates, welfare rates – we would need to correct for age and family size. Anyone wants to start?
Also, a small number of yeshivos (that register as educational like YU?) report federally required data for colleges, here are several numbers – percentage of graduates that earn >= 28K/year 10 years afer, I think. Of course, kollel, motherhood, and undisclosed incomes might have effect, but at least these are known numbers:
for comparison:
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK 0.877
JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY 0.897
CUNY BROOKLYN COLLEGE 0.706
CUNY BRONX COMMUNITY COLLEGE 0.613YESHIVA UNIVERSITY 0.798 (500 out of 4,000)
LANDER UNIVERSITY 0.659
TOURO COLLEGE 0.531
BETH MEDRASH GOVOHA OF AMERICA 0.469CENTRAL YESHIVA TOMCHEI TMIMIM LUBAVITZ 0.407
RABBINICAL COLLEGE BOBOVER YESHIVA BNEI ZION 0.33
YESHIVA OF NITRA RABBINICAL COLLEGE 0.274
YESHIVA GEDOLAH IMREI YOSEF D’SPINKA 0.271
RABBINICAL COLLEGE OF OHR SHIMON YISROEL 0.156
YESHIVATH VIZNITZ 0.127 (out of 4,000 total colleges, there are 10 lower than this)Avira,
how many times I need to clarify my question: which acharonim allow using non-Jewish support system for poor people in order to learn – and not just for one person but for whole groups.As to indeed allowed taking of tzedoka, could you quote in more detail – is it for those of exceptional learning or for anyone; is it for those who can easily support themselves.
I really, really have no questions about self-sustaining learning communities, where some people support others who are learning. This may not be as ideal as having everyone learn and earn a little to sustain themselves, the way Chofetz Chaim did, but quite reasonable. Do we have communities like that? I don’t think it is difficult. A small town of Volozhin was able to sustain 400 students by eating days, without asking Czar for funding.
common, as the next generation says: LOL. You are quoting Haaretz to characterize R Burg. Do you have better sources? Who knows what was the story in that gymnasium.
Other quotes about him:
He arranged Jewish prayer services in private homes after German synagogues were burned, and worked underground to help Jews escape to Britain and the Netherlands. His mother and grandmother died in Nazi concentration camps. [1]
Also, Lados group included both Polish diplomats and Agudah people.