Always_Ask_Questions

First, it is very refreshing that anti z position here is defended by a small but determined group that is not very eloquent. I could have written better responses for them. It really indicates that wider thinking charedim do not hold by that.

Also, just heard in R Lebowitz kinos about baryonim who wanted to put spear in r Yochanan to verify that he is niftar: people with agenda will eventually go to great lengths in defending their position.

Thanks for explaining 5/24 rule. Still, I am not sure of the reaction of let them monitor fraud. A very goyishe attitude, Caveat emptor. Yiddishkeit seems to be based on our responsibility to be honest. Are you suggesting that it is OK to take advantage of someone as long as they let you? Is this actually popular?

none2, I am sure you are first noticing first people who make you feel uncomfortable – and let it indeed be kaparat avanot! They say that a verbal beating may be harder than a physical one, but, at the same time, it is a less hurtful way to have kaparat avanot. And having it done to an anonymous persona even sounds like cheating!

But also look at how many posters defend you, and – all those who did not post anything, they surely disagree with the OP!

none2 > “It’s not a human life before 40 days”

Almost every issue is not absolute and requires a definition of where the boundary is. Talmud is very good at recognizing that. Rav Yirmiyahu in Bava Basra questioned one of such, seemingly arbitrary, rules: if you find a dove/chicken less than 50 amot from the house, presume it belongs to the house. If > 50 amot – you can take it. So, he asked – what if the bird has one feet on one side of 50 amot, and the other – on the other side, and he was kicked out of the yeshiva! Later in Bava Basra, rabbis begged him to come back and resolve some of the issues they could not without him. Moshe Elon (Israeli supreme court judge who was interested in embedding halakha into modern law) explains: 50 amot rule allows a simple farmer to make an objective decision whether the bird can be taken without involving lawyers. Questioning that means questioning the whole system of practical halakha where we can make ehrliche decisions in our lives and this deserved the expulsion.

NP > The Dati Leumi community needs full time learners as well. Every Jewish community does. There are plenty of challenges that go along with that. No one is exempt from challenges in olam hazeh.

Right. It is an issue with “MO” in US – they have bright T’ch at the top and a great “middle class” of professionals who can understand the sugya, but not always long ranks of professional teachers .. We had here an exemplar of a charedi teacher in “MO” school, subtly re-educating students (and denying he was doing that). I presume DL has similar issues, maybe less. Would it be nice then that both groups strengthen each other instead of looking down?

NP > 1) Recognition of the vital role full time learning plays in the preservation of the Jewish Nation and taxation by a Torah True government to fund it.
2) Under a democratic government, political advocacy for financial allocations by constituents who recognize the same.
News flash. In a democracy you are “forced to pay” for lots of things you don’t personally agree with

Good points:
1) We will all be happy with the “Torah true” government (TTG). Hope, we will recognize it when we see it! What if this TTG decides to spend more on Iron dome, while allowing engineers two hours of learning after work? Similar to gemora Megilla discussion between Yehoshua and malach who says he came because the army neglected learning at night.

2) I am ok with a democracy and using all kind of procedures from toppling the government to appealing to supreme court. A hard question then is – are we allowed to use all manners of speech that are allowed in a democracy in order to achieve the vote and maintain public support. It is often ugly. If, according to you, the goal is simply to achieve more support for your group – are you allowed to claim that your opponents are like Nazis, etc.
We do not have a lot of halachik experience with democracy in history. One would be Poland and Lita in 1920s-30s. I read some of the Chofetz Chaim letters from that period. He is definitely using some strong language, especially during an election in Vilno, where it seems like non/anti-religious groups were on the verge of taking power away. I can’t vouch for the whole picture though. The book was of yeshivish edition, so they might have selected what to publish. So, this would definitely be a source to resolve what is allowed in elections.

But longer play in democracy – you want to bring more people to support your side, not just fight for money. And that seems to be missing. Shas seems to understand that. They support the rest of charedi parties when they have to, but clearly keep connection with wider public.

YYA > Many of the secularists themselves at the time were from Frum homes

right, and note that many became secular in those several generations based on what was going at the times in general, nothing specific to zionism. those who chose Zionism instead of communism had a way better chance to both survive themselves and not become murderers and gangsters. Note that the rabbis at the time did not have a good solution for these problems despite desperate attempts.

thanks for the letter. There is a comment there that says that it is well known that HaRav supports nachal chareidi. There were also neturei karta in London protesting a memorial for the Rav because of that support.

I don’t think I read the article but heard his interview about it, and it said that kids connected first (she came up to ask him a chemistry question, I think), but then R Moshe approached R Tendler. I presume
– she knew whom she is approaching (what is a chance of meeting a random guy in NYPL and have both fathers on the same beis din?!)
– she mentioned the name to her father in a subtle way.

Why wasn’t she interested in any of the R Moshe’s students? I don’t know. Maybe because R Moshe was not recommending college to them?

How is vadai of mechalel shabbos v. sofek of “becoming non-charedi”

Just note that Chofetz Chaim sent his son-in-law to get visas on shabbos in order to leave USSR, but even then he later regretted his decision, saying it was better to stay and help those Jews who remind behind the iron curtain. So, add this to your calculation.

funny to hear this from a MO (Muslim Orthodox).

> Do you have a realistic solution?

From what I heard, the current bill is that realistic solution – military service for those who are not f/t learning with strict verification of that fact. Same way as it was during early times of Israel where Mir Rosh Yeshiva was imploring his students – I am certifying that Torah is your occupation, please do not make me into a liar. If this works, hopefully both sides will see it and learn how to talk to each other.

NP > Full time Torah Learning is a Civic Contribution of the Highest Order.

We have various models for that in Judaism. One is Yissachar/Zevulun – that is a valid contract between two willing participants. There are, B’H people willing to support learning. Not when one of them forces the other to pay. Another is – live on bread and water. Another is – work and learn at night. Another – get a profession, work several hours a day and learn.

Maybe the sentiment that you present is based on (unsaid?) assumption that the Jewish state is valuable – and we expect more out of it. Then, the community should publicly acknowledge that they see other Israelis as brothers and conduct conversation accordingly.

One of the links to Jewish Action referred to a story that R Soloveichik encountered in 1935 a stalinist kibbutz with a kosher kitchen. Turns out that R kook had previously visited the kibbutz on a Shabbat, had some inspirational time with them, did not criticize any of their behaviors and before leaving said “I hope we can also eat together next time”. They kashered the kitchen next day.

simcha613> I was talking about an elective Gemara class for girls.

right. and my sources @ Stern tell me that only a small number of girls attend purely “gemora” classes and many of them are politically motivated to do that. At the same time, “regular” Judaic classes bring Gemorah or Rambam related to the topic of study.

NP > 2) Such initiatives will surely be highjacked by people with a Feminist agenda.
exactly, see above.

NP > After all, Beis Yaacov was also unprecedented. However, like Beis Yaacov, such an innovation should have broad support from Gedolei Yisroel to be considered legitimate.

BY also had opposition among gedolim of the time. Maybe the difference seems to be that BY is a mass movement, and Gemora learning is not (or at least should not be). So, it affects a certain segment of women, so some Rabbis have these issues and others – avoid.

Also, the main innovation of BY was not educating of girls – that was already done by German Jews, but somehow making it acceptable to the charedi communities. Maybe same has to happen with Gemora learning.

HaKatan > Obviously, they all live under whatever conditions the Zionist invaders provide, whether that is the Iron Dome or anything else.

I have an idea for you to demonstrate your principles. Iron Dome’s munitions are expensive – and Arrow (against larger missiles) are even more expensive.
So, the way system works – it evaluates where the missile is flying and if that area is empty, then no interceptors are sent out. So, you can simply make an agreement with the Tzahal that your areas should be considered a midbar (as Chazon Ish said) and not requiring protection by Iron Dome. You can post signs on the streets – under divine protection, no iron dome.

> and let them work like in every normal country

work a good start, I am glad we are coming to a common point. But draft is also a normal thing. US had draft after to the 1970s, and Jews were drafted, although college students had deferral. I don’t know whether BMG qualified. Did it? Is Tzahal kashrus below the standard of US Army?

GadolHadofi, thanks for an interesting article. There is a link at the bottom of the article that also describes views of R Zevin and R Frank. Of course, all of these need to be balanced to the anti-state views that are alluded in the articles but not described in detail.

But I think sincere confusion comes from the fact that for some posters, those quotes are totally unfamiliar. Their sincere reaction is to deny that these quoutes exist because – unfortunately – the seforim they read did not contain them. I am not sure whether they’ll try to verify those or just deny.

coffee> I never said you were a TALMID chachacham, i said you are a CHACHAM which anyone can be (חכמה בגוים תאמין) the saying חכם עינו בראשו doesn’t only apply to Torah

your definition of the chacham seems OK, but your definition of the “talmid” seems off. T’Ch is a lower madregah and many true T’Chim call themselves mostly T’Ch as if they did not finish learning.

I don’t recall the source, but I think there is an explicit comparison – T’Ch can answer shailohs on the masechet he is currently learning, while Ch’ can answer anywhere in the Torah.

Maybe you are confused because, as you quote, chacham often refers to general knowledge and sciences, while t’Ch often is referred with ability to answer shailohs and also proper behavior (not walking on your own at night, dressing up properly). Maybe T’Ch starts with memorizing one mashechet at a time (see above), while Chacham has thinking capabilities that include as well general knowledge.

Anyway, I modestly claimed only naviyut, so none of these categories apply to me. And the reason I did it – to divert this ugly stream of mutual accusations … BTW, after I examined myself before I modestly concluded that I am not a T’Ch, I found I have something in common with Alter Rebbe!
As he said – he was choosing between going to Vilna Gaon and Maggid of Mezirich: I knew something about learning torah but I knew NOTHING about davening. So, I am 50% there like alter Rebbe! Of course, after Alter Rebbe learned something about davening, he tried to see Gaon – but he did not have a prayer …

I think R Issr Zalman was even a member of some underground organization while in the yeshiva (Mir?)

HaKatan, I think we can understand that PR believed that all the construction done by Zionists will eventually be for the good. So, you can use his permission to be equally accommodating.

> and the like, as Rav Moshe Zatza”l noted
And your explanation for R Moshe’s granddaughter learning gemora is … She was raised by R Moshe’s daughter and his SIL whom he personally suggested to his daughter ….

> If women choose to do so on their own, that’s their business.

Good, so you permit something. Now, we simply need to define what is “on their own”. Beruriah attended classes by 300 teachers (in one day) as mentioned by Rabbi, I think. In my view and probably in yours, this qualifies as women learning on their own rather than father teaching her. So, the same in our times – I agree with you that having rigid programs where girls have to learn gemorah as part of graduation requirement either for high school or Jewish college is not appropriate, but giving them an opportunity to do so on their own decision is fine.

coffee, thanks, but I am still reaching for the navi. There are a lot of features of tlamid chacham mentioned in the gemora that I view as a criteria – such as if you seem him posting an aveirah in the evening, you don’t have to remind them in the morning as he surely did teshuva. And, in Avodah Zara, you can presume to buy items that require trust from their family, as the chacham presumably taught his wife and househoild. I am not holding by these madregas yet! I did achieve the appropriate level of humility, though, so I stop here.

duvid > biggest enemy today is the Israeli Supreme Court

you are illustrating what was happening, say, in 1920s Poland – where Jews (and Poles also) were involved in fighting between different subgroups – while ignoring two evil superpowers on their borders.

As to the army run by secular politicians – you probably live in a democratic country where majority makes the rules, whether it is Israel or US. Alternatives to democracies exist, if you are willing to live in Iran/China/Russia/Saudi Arabia. If not, you need to follow halocha and follow the rules of the country. It is normal for every country to have an army to defend against the enemies. And it is up to you to vote the right politicians, convince other people in the country to vote same way as you do be seeing how righteous you are, and by making the army more religious, including the leaders.

.doe> The Tribes of Gad and Reuben both fought in the battles to conquer the land and even stayed an extra 7 years,

Exactly, whether their original statement was clumsy and they planned to go fight or whether they accepted tochacha from Moshe, they joined the rest of AM Israel, while keeping their pastures. So, it is not late for those sitting out now to join tzahal and then return to their studies.

Those who start immediately arguing about different matzav are right of course, but you need first to accept Moshe’s argument of responsibility for your brothers whatever other issues are out there.

On thicker ties: yes. Mine is thin and sharp.