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Even threads like that are useful – they tell us more about posters and those they represent, rather than about what they write about. So many people profess their utter respect for Toirah and gedolim, and then go low when they think they have a license to do so.
yankel> by some satmar guy …
I don’t think any of people who love quoting Satmar Rebbe have anything to do with Satmar Chassidus. Nor are they learners of R Elchonon Torah. They only bring them to support their own opinion, That is, they would quote a Rav because the Rav happened to agree with them. Olam afuch.
YYA> The fact that about a century ago some people came along and decided they want to create עם חדש בארצו on their terms, and a few decades later they seemed to get their wish and called themselves ‘Israelis’, has nothing to do with us. … Our job is to keep the Torah = listen to the גדולי הדור.
Look, I am not a chosid of Ben Gurion. It may be a complicated historical discussion who did what and what it means. Most people in Israel now are not even descendants of those early Zionists – so many people came from Europe after WW2, from Sephardi countries, from Soviet golus, from USA …
We are mostly talking about how to relate to the current situation. Yonah learned from the kikayon that people in the city matter for Hashem. Surely, the same applies to citizens of Israel.
And as to “giving over”, we need to do it honestly. There are varying halachik opinions about modern life, and it is not really “giving over” when you present one of the position as unquestionable halakha. Beis Hillel would present position of B Shammai before theirs.
YYA> our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.
This is beautifully said. I don’t think we should not defend positions when this becomes possible. There is a story about R Salanter who encounter a free-thinker in an inn. He suggested to have a debate and the loser will take off his jacket (conservative v modern) and wear the other one. They sat down and R Salanter took off his jacket, preparing to either win or lose. His opponent refused to take his jacket off. The R Salanter refused to have an argument with someone who is not prepared to fight till they find emes … on the other hand, maybe you mean the other saying of R Salanter: you should always advocate for Yiddishkeit, sometimes even with words …
yankel > It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law. There have no legal power to nullify laws.
Notice your language is loaded – “unelected SC”. SC is a legal structure. Unelected is part of taht structure. I don’t take positions here. If they have “no legal power” that really means that at the end of the political process, they’ll lose. Israeli law is an amalgam of multiple legal traditions, so there might be things that allow different interpretation. Hopefully, it will done while keeping shalom between people.
coffee> Thanks for teaching me the Halacha
either I am not getting the irony or they did not discuss that in your cheder?! Or everyone was such a tzaddiq that this never came up?
And, according to your opinion, it is possible for a gadol to declare that going to the Army is equivalent to learning?
Then, I suggest 2 approaches:
1) follow RZ gedolim
2) respectfully approach your gadol and ask whether he is amendable for such declaration l’ darkei shalom. Maybe, just a tryout for a week before end of bein haazmanim.coffee > therefore it follows that what they were doing has the same benefits as learning Torah
you suggest transformation between different substances upon Rabbi’s decision?
When malach told Yehoshua that he came because Jews were not learning during the war – Yehoshua could just say that when I order the fight, it counts as learning?! Or why he did not designate bnei Levi to sit and learn?
Just Visiting > They have to understand that in our eyes we are sharing the burden.
I think in the current matzav, you also need to start understanding what others think. Your thinking is really extremely zionist – you would not dare make similar demands in a goyishe country, whether in US or i Czar’s Russia. You require that the country provides you with a mehadrin kitchen and a tzanua dress. Jewws were drafted into Czar’s army – did they refuse and said that they’ll rather die in the Siberian camps? No. It was a tragedy but those who could not get out, went to serve.
yuda > our personal opinion doesn’t matter we are doing what Gidolei Yisroel have
Don’t hold yourself so low. Of course, your opinion matters. You were either born into or chose to listen to a certain Rabbi. Or maybe you or your parents chose a local Rabbi and he follows a certain godol. But it is your original choice. After yoi did that, it is reasonable to follow him.
A less legit approach is used by some people who explicitly “choose” a gadol based on a specific opinion. for example, some are fond quoting Satmar Rebbe or R Wasserman. I don’t think all who quote are either Satmar Chassidim or follow all mussar following of R Elchanan. So, they essentially select their opinion first and then use a godol as an excuse. This is total disrespect to the godol – you are not respecting him, you are just using them.
yuda > and 2 pirkei tehillim after all tifilos
I see something similar here in US: more modern places say tehilim and explicit tefila and charedim say tehilim. Sephardim are in between – when the rav is there, it is tehilim. When the rav is not there, it is sometimes tefilos that seemingly everybody answer.
I do understand problem people have with the RZ tefilos, but I also do not think that avoiding saying what you are davening for also makes sense. It is like they are marranos, hiding their Zionism from themselves.
At some point, I explained to my kids that charedim say “EY” to avoid saying “Israel” as a medinah – even like “I took a flight to EY”. They first accused me of loshon horo, but eventually agreed and sometimes excitedly say that a certain teacher said “Israel” (when other teachers were not there).
You need to work to reconcile your heart and your mouth.
Just visiting > So why is the “learning protects” argument used so often?
For me, this sounds as a dishonest argument: talk about learning, but then refuse to send everyone. I understand that this is politics, but I am sadden that such a crooked argument is used in the name of Torah. It is in essence a self-defeating argument – if you are not honest when you claim that you represent Emes, you don’t get a positive response.
With this in mind, back to your question “why is it used so often”? I would not presume that those respectful figures who do this are doing something they see as halachically asur. So, my best guess is that they see that this issue is so important and that the opposition is an enemy, so we are allowed to deviate from Emes. If you have a better explanation, please share.
It gives me some hope that the pig will start chewing the cud when Moschiach comes! And presumably acquires 2-3 extra stomachs. Then, maybe some of the posters here will be able to change their minds.
Nechama Lifshitzeit,
yeshivaman > they don’t realize the value of the spiritual contribution the charedim are making.
you can’t force your spiritual contribution on others. You can join Yassachar/Zevulun partnership – with a willing partner. Maybe, you can think how to make non-charedim appreciate your contribution – either by teaching them, or extending chesed, or behaving in life so that parents look at you and tell their kids – you should be as nice as this yeshivaman.
It is actually a klal – people tend to worry about spiritual well-being of others and their own material well-being more. Halakha is actually opposite – you should do the opposite.
yeshivaman > every single one told me it was a significant yerida.
Look, gemora says that Mordechai reduced his rank in Sanhedrin after he got involved into politics. Did he make a mistake hanging around the palace instead of sitting in the yeshiva?!
All this talk about army not providing perfect environment might pass during (relatively) peaceful time, but when the war goes for months and months, I can see how Israelis are not relating to this argument, especially when you start nitpicking that army really does not use all soldiers, and there are other people avoiding. Maybe, you simply sincerely do not understand what others are thinking of you because everyone around you brings these arguments.
I suggest having a listening tour – go to a non-charedi commuity and ask them what they think about this issue – not confront them or argue, but simply listen to how they think and feel. Then, come back here and report.NP > t’s funny you say that. I was literally considering doing just that.
they really create a bad name – to a reasonably respectful position that give some food for thought. We can only conclude that really good anti-Zs are not yet venturing online. But I think many people, both historical figures we described as well as now – are ambiguous – finding different positives in various positions. As we should be – we do not always know where things are going. Even R Yochanan till the end of his life was not sure whether he was or was not correct asking just for a little but from Vespasian and was afraid of a possible punishment …
YYA, ok I agree on mutual influence. Same happened before between chassidim and misnagdim. A similar issue is discussed in how is better to learn – one place or rmany? General advice is – firest learn basics from one place to make sure you are not missing material and then go earn from multiple places to learn different methods.
HaKatan, would you mind helping us all out: file a reference to one of your opi magni and paste it in your posts instead of repeating same thing over and over? You’ll save yourself time in typing and save a lot of trees.
coffee, see CM 228:5
יזהר שלא לכנות שם רע לחבירו אע”פ שהוא רגיל באותו כנוי אם כוונתו לביישו אסור:
One must be careful not to give a negative nickname to another person. Even if the person is regularly called by that nickname, if your intention is to embarrass them, then it is prohibited.based on BM 58
Although the victim grew accustomed to being called that name in place of his name, and he is no longer humiliated by being called that name, since the intent was to insult him, the perpetrator’s punishment is severe.Mentch,
I think none2 clearly believes in Oral torah as he engages in the oral discussion about the Torah, expressing his opinions and listening to others. He is simply partly not familiar with the Oral Torah that is already written down or does not understand how it worked out. But this is ignorance or mis-education mixed with some skepticism due to weaknesses he observed in reading opinions of those who claim to believe in Oral Torah.Just look through this coffee room – I would count any post that ignores Jewish tradition of honest arguing is posted by a non-believer in Torah Shbaalpe.
katan > vadai shmad
One of my ancestors was a cantonist in the Russia Czar’s army, and came out Jewish.
How do they teach in your yeshivos if you are not able to survive an encounter with a bunch of young non-religious Jews?!Red Adair > I see it as no different than a store that offers a great sale on one item to entice customers –
thanks for the discussion. I see the difference here – 1) the offered sale brings people to the store physically 2) it is pretty hard to do that repeatedly given that a number of people come after limited number of physical objects 3) stores rarely sell with a true loss over their wholesale value
for the CC – it is easy to do multiple times in the virtual world, this is clearly not what the offer is for.
this is all trying to explain my gut feeling when I first heard of someone doing this, maybe the real test would be to ask random people on the street – what they consider yashar.
The fact that some people here know of such a little technical detail as 5/24 really scares me – how would a normal person encounter that? this is obviously from the experience in the community.
amom > opening and closing too many credit cards can strongly affect your credit score.
R Yohanan said – be afraid of King of Kings like you are afraid of an earthly king … so, credit score is scarier than inappropriate behavior?
nisht, I agree, but this is the closest I found so far. Let me know if you find something else.
YYA> do more for their Yiddishkeit, is מחזק the MO/RZ.
that might be. I see it mostly through Charedi teachers in MO schools. Maybe by some MO professionals coming to learn with kollelnikim. Mabe, some youngsters starting coming to a Charedi minyan feeling “frummer”. Otherwise, those in MO community who are serious about their observance and pretty self-sufficient. Those who are less serious, look up to those who are. When I mention an opinion of one of the Charedi rabbis in the community, some of MO people never met them and barely heard of them. Maybe it is different in other places.
> I didn’t understand what is the connection with the שיטה of R’ Moshe vs. R’ Yoshe Ber WRT entering non-Orthodox places of worship.
I meant that R Soloveitchik is stricter towards non-O because he, and his community, has more chances of interactions and it is both a more frequent issue and a need for more strictness. For Rav Moshe, it is a question whether you can enter for a funeral. For R Soloveitchik, a question from a student whether he can be a Rabbi in a shul with mixed seating; or an invitation for a shul opening dinner in honor of the Rabbi who is a personal friend; or an issue of listening to Shofar on R’H when there is no alternative (answer in all cases is “no”, the last one – “the easiest question I was ever asked”)
none2 > If you find 500 dollars in middle of nowhere it’s yours. Stop complicating things. If you want you can find the owner. That’s your choice but if it’s in middle of the street, it’s obviously hefker
exactly. So, if you find it near my home, you’ll go knock on my door, right? Or, in America/TX, you have a chance that I’ll shoot at you from my house and ask shailohs later. So, where does a middle of the road start? at the end of side walk? 4 amot after? I also need to know – so I know whether I can shoot at you. And your family needs to know – whether they can sue me after. See, how an idea of a strict rule prevents so much violence and bad blood between people.
This is not unique to Jewish law, American law has similar rules – there are codes that define distance from the house to property line, between your fence and property line. Jewish law simply is more careful enabling simple people to take advantage of this (for example, rules are sometimes simplified for slightly different cases – “lo plug”). This is not my idea, but Israeli SC Judge Moshe Elon.
ZZSK > Shas and the Gerrer Rebbe hold
From outside, it seems that Shas is always trying to be both Chareidi and Sephardi. Whenever Ashkenazi Charedim are announcing leaving government or such, Shas is kind of following to make sure “they are also charedim” but their heart is not there. Not randomly, right after 12-day war start, the first news out was that Shas was informed and stopped politics. Later on, I think, it turned out that Ashkenazi politicians were also in the loop, but did not have a need to advertise it.
I wonder why bnei Reuven and bnei Gad did not suggest to Moshe Rabbeinu – we will stay here and learn 24/7?! This is what malach says to Yehoshua – you are gonna be killed because you don’t learn at night. Would it be handy to point out to the yeshivos of Reuven & Gad?!
Granted, Simcha Bunim of Peshischa suggests that they stay to be close to their Rebbe – Moshe, and the kevurah.
YYA > Any meaningful efforts to change the IDF to an extent that would genuinely meet Chareidi standards
I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed. If you can start with the premise that a country needs an Army, and everyone should work towards the strength of the country (see thread title), you can then have specific discussions. Can you organize some services that can work in current environment? Any specialties that do not require inappropriate situations? Can charedim be involved in cybersecurity? man radar installations? drive trucks? fly airplanes? State specific conditions you want and, if not possible, let the other side say that they insist that one of the F-16 pilots has to be a girl.
yankel > draft for haredim was duly legislated and appeared on the books . It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law. There have no legal power to nullify laws. Which created the current anarchy.
Just be careful. Israeli legal system appears to be incomplete. So, it might be unclear how to resolve what SC can or cannot do. I don’t know the right answer, but Israeli politicians will go through the motions and come to some conclusions. It might be: “SC made an opinion, ow let them enforce it”. If this works, that means this is what the system was built for.
I am more familiar with US that has a little better defined structure, but still there are “unwritten” agreements that sometimes fall apart: senate filibuster, packing supreme court, state rights to secede … a typical solution for such issues is the strength of public opinion: FDR did not pack the court because it would not be supported. So, if overwhelming part of population will be for or against SC, that will be the result.
The worst solution, H’V, is when force or anarchy comes in. The whole goal of democracy is to prevent that.
And this might be the point to ponder: the goal of democracy is to resolve issues according to some fixed rules without getting to physical fights or breakups. It does not have to be best solution and it does not have to be the one supported by > 50% of population. As long as the system overall is supported by the population, this should be enough. As of now, it seems that SC role is seen opposite from opposite camps, and this is the source of political instability.
SQRT, a more effective:
a pre-nuptial agreement that specifies that both chasan and kallah read books about marriage, child rearing, anger management and passed an online test and a test in person on how to change a diaper.on your items:
– Halakha is surely against looking for mamzerim. In cases of doubt, rabbonim are going out of the way to find way to mattir. One rav told me that he came up with a list of ways to mattir in a very difficult case where there was a lot of confirmed information. When he called up a T’Ch to check and went through part of the list, the answer was “this is enough already”.
– ketubah arrangement evolved over time, see Ketubot – first it was $$$ held in the house, but then husband will be too quick to say “divorce” (like Muslims do 3 times?), hand over the money. After a couple of more options, the current one developed with a lien on husband’s property that might take a beis din to unwind. This points that changes are possible, but they should be done to balance all sides so that people continue getting married.> Zionist army is shmad. Period. It is expressly designed for that
The arguments we hear are always shifting. R Sorotzkin and many others often publicly talk about “full time learners”, then there are internal psakim that say “everyone who is charedi”. If you seriously hold by the thought above: come up with the structure that will work for your community and propose it, and negotiate around it. You have to see the facts: given the public opinion in Israel, you need to either show some good will or be prepared to be outvoted on the issues you care about. People who rejected reality were called: baryonim.
Happy NY, to clarify: learning as in applying our thinking to understanding Torah and world are as old as the Torah itself (they’ll say this nation is wise ..),
but not specific ways of thinking. Bavli has developed new methods of interpretation hat do not exist in Mishnah & Yerushalmi. R Akiva developed methods that did not exist before (he was like a poor person carefully organizing the little wheat he had – see None2’s frugal thread!)coffee > I highly doubt Joe is getting embarrassed by this thread his skin is too tough
Despite my own remark, I don’t think this is a halakhically valid argument. For example, you should not use a derogatory nickname even if the person does not get offended.
hakatan > Of course, the baryonim of today would be the Zionists.
You can see some comparison between non-rel Zs of yesteryear with baryonim, although not fully. For one difference, they did not go into a fight with a superpower burning their own supplies. For another, you’d like that – baryonim were not violating 3 shvuos, they were there already. This is worth a good discusssion, but it takes away from our core disagreement – about RZ that are mostly not like that. And I brought a counter-argument several times – all minorities in middle east suffered in last 100 years, was it possible to live peacefully there? I don’t think you answered that. This is some contrast with Roman Empire – they were brutal to those who rebelled as a preventive policy, but they were often benefitting those who submitted to them.
none2 > farmer was also given intellect discernment and his own brain to know what he needs to do.
You are idealizing farmers. Look at people in general, whether in our times, or in history – how much cruelty is out there. People who fight in our days for the Russian army are either convicts or those dear farmers from far-away villages. They drink/rape/kill in large numbers.
> If G-d already wrote the law simply that means it fits with reality exactly and we will be able to use that principle
right, so we are not talking about stum farmers, but Jewish ones. You can see explicitly in many mitzvot that there is a goal of training us to behave properly. It is a failure of Torah learning when a person puts energy in doing a “mitzva” when it is written down but then refuses to walk an old lady over the road or looks for ways to cheat someone. Gemora Beitza 25 proves explicitly that Hashem gave Torah to Jews to teach us patience, otherwise we will use our hutzpa against other peoples.
Now, dealing with new situation: if a situation is not simple, are you suggesting acting on “intuition”? Or apply your rational mind – that Hashem gave you – to solve it. And if the latter, is there anything wrong to think carefully, say, for an hour? or a day? or for several centuries, going logically through all options? Experiment and see what works? We have a number of description in gemora how different decisions were made over time, after many experiments – such as the system of public education. (Bava Batra)
> But getting your lifestyle to be bear bones actually gives you a form of control. And freedom.
I do agree in part. I knew one person who lived like that and he would answer “how are you” with “Bartuch Hashem! Nobody is envying me”
none2> hat you earn in easy living you give up in time.
right. That is why I suggested working “a couple of hours a week”. I frankly do not know many (any?) people who do the balance – people either work too much or too little. It kind of makes sense from community POV – if someone earns $500/hour, it makes sense for him to work and sponsor someone who is not working for $15. One way out is to do something actually meaningful – run a chesed organization, do heart surgery, build a next generation fighter – and also something that you like. Then, when you come home, you are in a good mood and you will easily share that mood and have time to deal with kids and learn.
> Bare minimum living is like a muscle. You become stronger. Withstand things better
This might work – sometimes, if you control the process. Many people in poverty do the opposite: worry about money, think of theft or ways to go around the rules and taxes … Some say that every person gets challenges that fits his nature. A poor person who insists on becoming rich may not be able to withstand challenge of being rich. And maybe other way around too. Do not create challenges for yourself, work seriously on those that you already have. Is it better for a rich person to become poor or it is better to figure out how to use the money you have.
This was very laudable in times passed. Many mussar giants lived this way. But does it really make sense in our times? For the effort to live this way, you can simply go to, say, law school, and then work several hours a week and have enough for modest living and learn, saven, or do chesed the rest of the time. I am sure baalei mussar spent more hours walking to pick up bread and water and wash their clothes than that. Chofetz Chaim surely spent more time selling his seforim and had enough time left to learn.
Or is there independent value in living in poverty even if it is so easy to avoid it? another way to ask same question – do we have many examples of Yidden who were rich and then gave it all away to live a life of poverty?
YYA> please their non-Orthodox and gentile neighbors … The main thing preventing them from doing so even more is that they see the example of the Chareidim.
I am sure this happens somewhere, but I do not see it in day-to-day MO community. I see, one one head, occasional clashes between some progressives that advocate for some feminist direction, making symmetric men and women sections, etc and opposite reaction from the rest. The reaction is principled, not because “satmar will stop davening by us”. Wherever there is a reason to participate in some activities with other groups, nobody looks at chareid reaction either.
And if you compare R Soloveitchik and R Moshe teshuvot on entering non-O places of worship, R Moshe comes a little more permissive, in my opinion.
yankel> I personally know people who were advised by r shlome zalman auerbach to enlist .
and what happened with them? Note that some rabbonim consider someone becoming a “non charedi” an aveirah.
Similarly, a Rav on today’s front page mentions discussing this topic with some who is “frum” but not “ben Torah”. This Rav also talks about those whose _only_ occupation is Torah. So, he obviously allows others to serve like R Sholmo Zalman.
Abba! I thought this issue is resolved already and all frum ladies already burned all their indian hair. And I don’t think they are tumah, “just” assur bhanaah. It is right in daf yomi Avoda Zara 40s. Maybe when they sell the hair, it means that they botel the AZ?
DaMoshe > Only after confronting the Rav with the opposing view, and he stands by what he said, are you required to listen.
There is even a halocha how you approach your teacher if you think he made a mistake – you ask him a polite question. You can’t have this halocha if the teacher is always right!
none2 > because I understand these arguments are sacred to all of you, so, I apologize, but that is such a stupid argument and waste of time and waste of moral principles. Hefker shouldn’t be so complicated.
I am with you that we should not forget looking at 10 commandments!
But this is about silly chickens. But it is not a waste of time. Think of a simple farmer who lives a town. He finds a chicken. It is like you finding $500 on the street. You seem to be a philosopher – are you going to just pass by thinking of bigger issues or would you like to pick it up? But how do you know that you are allowed to pick it up? Many of us would say – hm, this chicken looks dirty and his hairy is messy – I just _know_ he is homeless – and convince yourself that it is OK to steal it (see the thread on CC offers). Next day, the chicken owner loses faith in his fellow Yidden and now has to stand whole day watching his chicken instead of doing something ore productive. On 1-2 generations, the whole community loses it’s dignity.
Instead, halakha gives the farmer a simple rule that helps him keep himself in control. And so are many other rules like that. This is applied philosophy.
So, here is “do not steal”,”do not desire”, “bear a witness” thanks to this chicken.
amom, so you are talking a case where bonus requires actually charging large balances? Then, perhaps someone who does not necessarily have money to pay right away is legitimately using the CC. Maybe the test could be – would you consider taking this loan without an offer?
The people I heard it from had no cash flow problems as far as I know.so far, I did not find anything beyond R Goldberg’s article that is raising a similar general issue but probably the one that is more likely to be bad. So, it is not a proof for our case.
I found a 2014 article by R Efrem goldberg from Boca with a “duh” title “just-because-it-is-permissible-doesn-t-mean-it-is-right”
He is not talking about credit card offers but another behavior that is legal – issuing complaints and pressing companies to issue returns and offers because of that, or taking advantage of mistaken low offers.
Last month, the United States Supreme Court heard the case of a rabbi who was suing Delta airlines for revoking his Platinum Elite Status after he complained 24 times in 8 months and negotiated his way to $1,925 in travel credit vouchers, 78,500 extra bonus miles, a travel voucher for his son and $491 in cash reimbursements. The court has yet to render its decision but it was clear that the justices were less than impressed with the complaint.
…The Torah tells us (Devarim 6:17) “V’asisa hayashar v’hatov b’einei Hashem, Do what is right and good in the eyes of Hashem.” What does this generic statement mean? How do I fulfill this command? The Ramban explains:
“This is a great concept, for it is impossible to mention in the Torah all of the modes of behavior for a person to follow with his neighbors and acquaintances, and all of the details of his business dealings and all the regulations for the betterment of society and of states. However, after mentioning many of them such as don’t gossip, don’t take revenge…it goes on to say here in a general manner that one should do what is good and right in every situation.”
asd, there might be a difference here – taking introductory offer of 0% or 2% interest for 6 months v. taking cash. I am thinking taking 2% offer is ok. I know I am going to pay it back and I am, thus, a low risk (even of lender does not know), so he is getting reasonable if low profit. I am less sure about 0%. They would not give it to you if they knew you are going to quit – although I used it myself – usually from the CC that I already used and once in a while self-justifying that I paid late fees or interest. Maybe it is still OK especially if you are tight on money – because there is still a chance that you will not be able to pay on time, and that is all they expect – a fair chance.
asd > You’re not giving nothing in return.
We are not talking about not carrying interest – but about taking advantage of introductory offers: $500 airline points for signing up, then closing the card, and opening the new one.
happy > The first jewish “Tanach” was published around 800 CE
Bava Batra 14 discusses all books of Tanach and authors.