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Menachem, thanks for an interesting article. It confirms that Rebbe opposed demonstrations – but he was not a daas Yachid as I posted (this is from memoirs of one of those students). The article uses, well, somewhat convoluted logic to prove that Rebbe’s quiet help was useful and demonstrations were not. It is probably convincing to those who only read DerHer … Comparing dealing w/ Soviets with French …
Note that the article write about a little later times when Israelis started talking about the issue. The memoirs was about a little earlier times, I think 1960s, when Israelis hoped to improve relationships with USSR and thus advised (lied to) R Soloveitchik. As he put it later: I asked them what is better for Soviet Jews, and they answered what is better for Israel itself. All other rebbeim were concerned, as the article said, that traditional shatdlanus is better and also that KGB could hurt those naive students.
This is absolutely not to disrespect legacy of Chabad in respect to USSR Jews – his father died there in exile, so I am sure he did not have any illusions about the regime, like some other more progressive leaders did.
PS the article is also funny substituting “eretz isroel” for “Israel” even when it is clearly about the state: Soviet Russia cut ties with Eretz Yisroel.
Maybe an editor did find/replace.YYA > Although in a genuine Torah Malchus, the King isn’t above the ‘constitution’ – i.e. the Torah, so Jewish מלכות is ‘constitutional’.
Indeed, and Achav example is pertinent – even a bad Jewish King is not ready to follow standard practices of goyishe ones. Probably something to keep in mind when judging Israeli politicians.
Still, Shmuel was not happy about Jews choosing monarchy. And Jewish system clearly has elements of separation of powers, to adifferent degree depending on time: king, kohanim, sanhedrin.
We are all in favor of David’s dynasty by now, but it does not mean that some elements of democracy are not appropriate. Gemora and especially Rishonim were during periods when monarchy was a natural state of things – democracy was discredited somehow by Greek and Roman experiences. But it is working, somewhat, in our days, so why can’t we retain elements of democracy?
none > Your literally saying we should all censure ourselves for you. Not say our opinions. Only think one way. Your ok?
what I mean is that when you are trying to convince someone of your opinion, you should present all info, including the one that contradicts your view; when you quote a Rav, try to see whether this Rav said other things; whether there are Rabonim who say it differently. A lot of discussions here are straight out of CNN war rooms, where each side shouts out their slogans in a hope than the other side will not bring relevant arguments. Beis Hillel was accepted because they always brought B Shammai opinion first.
keith > He returns the next day and asks “is it OK for me to learn Torah while I’m smoking?” “Of course!”
I heard an actual story about, I think, R Yaakov Kamenetsky. The student brought tea to the Rav while they were learning. The rav did not finish the tea by the time they finished learning. The student asked why the Rav is not drinking. Rav explained that they stopped learning. Student suggested to learn another blatt. Rav explained: I drink to learn. I do not learn to drink.
katan> Bruriah was obviously exceptional, even among daughters of tannaim.
There is a suggestion in Sanhedrin that a wife of a Talmid Chacham does not require a warning for a capital punishment (adultery?) because she knows the halokha. Presumably, her husband taught her or he married a daughter of T’Ch who taught her. So, it is not just Beruriah, it is a presumption about any wife of T’Ch.
I don’t think you guys appreciate how Trump’s suggestion of further negotiations worked to the benefit of the Israeli attack.
simcha > Which I understand to mean, you cannot impose learning on all women and girls. It can’t be a mandatory learning in the way it is for boys. But if you have someone who genuinely wants to expand her Torah knowledge, and she is smart enough to do so…
This sounds very reasonable.
coffee > Look at the story with bruriah
yes, she taught her husband to pray properly in regards to some gangsters, and he turned around and lured her into a trap. So, maybe men should not be learning Gemora because of what R Meir did? And as I mentioned ^, hundreds of teachers had no problem w/ teaching her and there is noone on record objecting. It is 300 tannaim against one coffee.
katan > As the Chofetz Chaim wrote, until that point, girls received their mesorah at home, and did not need formal schooling as provided by BYs.
where did he write this and what was the context? In 1920s, he clearly lamented that so many Jewish women in Poland do not know how to read and asks those who do to read halochos of niddah to them from his letter. No, he did not propose teaching them how to read. He did not think it is possible.
Zushy, a great idea – establish a frummer medinah between Nahariya and Beirut and leave their under protection of your learning. As Tzahal now holds some of those areas, maybe this should be part of the new law – if you refuse to join Tzahal, you are sent to the parts of EY that are outside of Medinah.
>>> “I can support the State of Israel, without supporting the apikorsis of many of its founders.”
wtsp> This is the most hypocritical sentence I’ve ever read.Wtsp, current leaders of Israel did not inherit power from their founders-fathers. They earned their position in an election. Thought experiment: R Sonnenfeld starts the medinah in 1910 (and why didn’t he?). It is all according to halocho but also a democracy. Then, war refugees and sephardim arrive and they vote in today’s parties. At the end, the matzav is the same. You need to deal with current state. Does it matter who started it.
This is not a new situation. We had a melech dragging bones of his father in public. Do we judge him being a bad melech because of his father, or do we judge him based on his actions?
lernt > Yet, when Menachem Begin asked for a bracha of success
indeed. R Schach also writes that Hashem induced Arabs to hate Zionists to prevent them form intermarrying. So, he clearly cared about their neshomos.
At the same time, when Begin offered full support for charedi schools, R Schach instructed to get usual percentage – so that the schools do not become fully dependent on government and then fail when the government changes. So, he was dealing with realistic expectations trying to build a healthy system.
Parenthetically, I do not understand when people selectively quote from someone they call a “gadol”. What greater disrespect you can have for someone than misrepresent his position and making him into a one-dimensional caricature.
crazy, just think what would Pres Biden or Pres Harris do at this point? Probably say – we will fully defend Israel BUT they need to stop immediately for world peace sake. And I know at least one person who agrees with that – Bibi. Otherwise, he would have started this op in January.
YYA > So, when we had a בית המקדש, people could be executed for some עבירות, even at age 13. Not now.
I agree w/ your general sentiment. I think things were similar back then. Gemora discusses all kind of reasons people can be off the hook for a korban – did not know this or that, were onus because they were mislead …
> Of course there is. Are all these chevrah so sure of their own tzidkus that they want to ‘wake up’ the מידת הדין ר״ל?
I think Hashem hardened their hearts for us to see how ridiculous such positions are when they are taken to the extreme – and so that we grow in our rachmonus and achdus.
> thank Hashem instead of thanking their army or America.
I don’t know about you, but I go through life usually thanking people for doing something for me, starting from my wife’s dinner to a driver who decided not to run me over. Are you freezing every time to decide whether this person deserves thanks or only Hashem does.
I guess I can see if someone clearly evil, a criminal, a terrorist, a mafiosi, does something for me, I might think about it. So maybe if people in your community are trained to consider Israeli government as evil, they need to view it this way.
Sam, De Nile is not just a river in Mitzrayim
Lernt > there is a need for hakaras hatov to someone for having a machshava tova even though the yeshuah would have been brought about in other ways.
indeed. Mordechai says that to Esther explicitly – we can be saved without you. Doesn’t diminish her zechuyos.
maybe not a direct answer, but R Steinsaltz in a small book that summarizes Talmud for newbies mentions this inter alia, noting that R Eliezer is known for extreme views. Rabbis had no problem with Beruriah learning and the fact that she learned 300 halochot from 300 teachers in one day, or something like that, is brought approvingly. That means that all 300 teachers did not mind her in the class. You decide whether there was a whole class of ladies, or she was in a co-ed class, or she was given class one-on-one.
As to other writings, they bring a clear rationale which is not so true today. Clearly, there are women in our times that are intellectually prepared. The rationale to teach them – they might be learning at advanced levels sciences and non-Jewish humanities. They can, and need to, understand Judaism at the same level to be able to answer people they interact with, and for their own sake.
Chofetz Chaim wanted women to know how to read – he asks those who know to read halochos of niddah from his letter to those who are not… He just did not know how to. When Mrs Schenirer started BY, she asked Yakkish ladies with PhDs to help her with the curriculum and this got approved. R Soloveitchik in 1950s suggested to have classes co-ed, otherwise classes for girls will be of inferior quality… He later led the first gemora class at Stern College, so maybe things changed.
Now, in my mind, I have 2 questions:
1) teach those who want to/capable or everyone (within the community that does it). I am skeptical whether an average girl is interested, and it is silly to force them. Many BY classes are silly as is, making girls memorize a lot of material in order to keep them off the streets. Maybe this is what R Eliezer warned about.2) what is “gemora”. The abstract meaning is – reasoning behind mitzvos (v. mishna that is just the laws, to include S’A etc). This is what these ladies need. But when gemora learning is understood in the narrow sense of struggling through dafim, figuring out every machlokes between Abaye and Rava – I don’t think they need it. In my own family, I have no problem teaching BY girls “gemora” in terms of explaining some great principles behind halocha, but they do not have interest in following the daf, figuring out – correctly – that it can create problems in shidduchim.
lernt > We pray for Moshiach to come and the replacement of the current state with a monarchy.
Are we 100% sure that Moschiach will run a monarchy? maybe a democracy with all Yidden voting for Torah-true laws? Or a constitutional democracy with Moschiach presiding and elected ministers running the government day-to-day? Rambam says there will be no difference except that Yidden will not be governed by others.
> Thinking we know better than Hashem is heresy.
ExactlySam,
do you know that it is just your country that counts days backwards? Are you suggesting, H’V, that Yidden in other countries, including Israel, have 136 mitzvos? OR is the message just for the Yidden of the USA?lernt > Didn’t the chareidi parties agree to a draft compromise? How do we understand that in light of this thread?
Maybe they did not read this thread yet. Or maybe gedolim want to take away passports from full time learners to take away yetzer hara from the learners to go on foreign trips.
Students planning demonstrations for soviet jews asked Lubavicher Rebbe and he advised them against out of fear for the students. They did and eventually helped mln of jews to be freed. So there are limits to prophetic vision… other rabbonim gave the same answer: r. Moshe and r Teitz for the same reason and r Soloveitchik because he got advice from Israeli politicians that it is better for soviet jews to keep quiet. When he realized that the advice was self serving and incorrect, he reversed his opinion. Chacham v Navi…
An interesting question whether every yid nowadays is a tinok shebnishba. Consider posters here. Regardless of which side of every argument you take, you would agree that half or more of the posters are confused in their learning. Even people who went to Jewish schools are not protected from misunderstanding of core concepts and aren’t even able to argue their point without misrepresenting what their opposition says. Gemora is ambiguous whether Yoav killed his teacher for a mistake in one pasuk. Can you imagine what he would do to the current educational system?!
> Example of the Rebbe’s nevuah is that no one will be killed from the skuds.
The real navis were American special forces and intelligence officers who were “seeing” where the scud launchers were. I don’t think they caught them but at least the launchers were always on a run.
Lernt > Every news article implies natural causes instead of Hashem. … But people only complain when it’s Israel doing the winning.
exactly. Nobody denies overall problems with modern culture. We are all assimilated in many aspects. It is not just using phones, internet, and now chatgpt … Look at how we debate here. Modern debate is based on free speech – all arguments are allowed – and then use Roman “caveat emptor” principle to figure out who is honest and who is not. If you are, on the other hand, raised on Talmudic discussions, you should learn how to make truth the center of your argument, respect your opponent, provide relevant information, investigate your own biases, etc.
So, how come we see here even most “anti-modern” posters having no problem presenting skewed information, crooked logic, and other non-Jewish methods of argument. I presume because we all got used to lies and exaggeration everywhere in the media…
some > Poskim have well dealt with these questions, and it’s obvious that such a minyan is not l’chatchilah and should be avoided. Some poskim reject such a minyan even b’dieved.
great, so we stumbled at a halachik discussion here. So, seems other than “some” poskim allow such minyanim.
There are clearly limits here – if ladies in pink dance in, we will not join them or their boyfriends. So, if you have someone at this minyan who is clearly Tzahal or clearly from a non-religious Kibutz – what is the range of opinions from poskim?
note to self and to my descendants: in the future, read the name of the country before settling there.
some > our obligation to completely rely on heaven to protect our nation in exile
With all due respect, this sounds like kefirah to me, maybe you are not expressing yourself well. Or, as I said before, you are holding at a level that is not possible for most other Yidden, but a tzaddik like that will have rachmonus on us, poshuteh yidden.
are you limiting this “completely rely” to golus? So, when Ramban was challenged to a debate – he should not have argued against their religion? Rambam should not have run away from Spain? Polish Jews were wrong forming vaad arba artzos? all medieval shtadlanim were wrong asking for kings’ protection?
or are you limiting it only to the issue of mass aliya to EY? So, you prefer non-religious Jews in 19-20th centuries who became communists to those who became Zionists?
ebrown > The alternative is to have an army run by Torah Jews, with only Chareidim in it.
a good idea. And how did IDF start – with several militias that were sometimes unhappy with each other. Nothing stopped R Zonnenfeld and Chazon Ish from starting their own units. At that time, there were religious Jews who were veterans of Russian and Polish armies who could have started. But it is not too late. Start small – maybe take on Huthis or some other small group.
wtsp > They aren’t problematic concepts in of themselves, but when you intertwine them with love for ארץ ישראל, it is extremely problematic.
…
> Don’t twist up the anti-Zionist view to sound worse than it is, and don’t twist up what Zionism truly means to make it sound better than the apikorsus it is.I appreciate your acknowledgements, but it is completely unclear what your target is. Your first senetence ^, for example, is a statement that hangs out there: you agree that the concepts you listed before are not problematic, but then they are problematic due to intertwining them. There is no explanation here. As you clearly said at the beginning – you selected a position first and now wonder about things that contradict your pre-selected position and trying to explain away all these data points to make sure they fit your position. You are not the only one bothered. See comments by various posters under multiple news articles, where instead of expressing relief when there is less danger to Yidden in EY, first words out of their mouths is – don’t thank the army … there is some psychological issue behind that. Imagine if your wife were to cook you a dinner and you would reply – I am thanking Hashem for this, not you?
wtsp > We are obligated to, and should naturally feel, appreciation and tremendous gratitude toward them for all they do. Yet we can’t appreciate them while failing to recognize that all their successes are straight from הקב”ה – He is the One we should be thanking first and foremost.
finally a statement that I think most here can agree with. Thanks for the post (and thanks Hashem for increasing shalom between Yidden).
wtsp,
I am not sure why POLITICAL MOVEMENT, STATEHOOD , SELF-DETERMINATION are problematic concepts in general, unless you make some additional assumptions?aguda is a POLITICAL MOVEMENT
STATEHOOD is every state in the world.
SELF-DETERMINATION is something Jews always pursued even within other states (Vaad Arba Artzos, Ghettos. R Shimshon Hirsh’s kehilla)> don’t make that worse by denying that of course Jews obviously go OTD in that shmad army.
is there any research on those charedim who already went to the army – what was their state of mind before and after the army?
LerntminTayrah> Chareidi parties agreed to allow bochurim to serve in the IDF before the Iran attacks began.
possibly, but it appears that the final moment was that Arye Deri was at the last moment told why this is not the right moment to bring the government down and that meant the end of the rebellion. Not sure – was Yuli Edelstein in the know? Maybe Bibi was killing 2 birds with 1 stone – create an impression that his government is going down to fool Persians and, l’havdil, forcing Shas to surrender. Maybe not just “forcing”. From my outsider POV, Shas always feels a need to compete with other charedim to be considered charedi, but they are happy to do what is right for the country as long as they have a solid excuse, so Bibi gave them that.
Another parallel in negotiations (in no way, I am considering the parties here, hope nobody is offended, we are just studying negotiation processes – and this should be on everyone’s list in Trump times!): Persian non-extremist side of the government would like to surrender but cannot in front of the extremists. So, when all their military will be bombed out, they can agree because there is nothing to surrender. Same might be (just a hypothesis) view of some of the Roshei Yeshivos – they might want to have their students tit and learn, and those who do not learn not to walk and around and smoke – so they might be willing to surrender here, but they cannot be seen surrendering.
Lernt > sin of the Zionists was taking people away from Torah. If dismantling the state is going to cause hundreds of thousands to stop learning, then dismantling the state is just Anti-Zionist Zionism.
This is an interesting conclusion, indeed! So, despite early anti-religious Z arguably were “taking people away”, the current matzav is that, Hashem somehow turned it around and the Zionists support so much of learning and other mitzvos also … is this “too big too fail” like with banks!?
PS As to “taking people away”, we talked about it earlier. I doubt that anti-rel Zs were _the_ major factor in people leaving Torah: if someone wants to be not religious per se, there were more comfortable pathways at the time – marry a goya, convert, go to Amerika, get admitted to university, etc. I think anti-rel Zs mostly recruited among those who were already not religious and they were more preferable than complete assimilation. So, these people benefited from going to EY instead of US or USSR.
> “naturallyu reduce” being code words for many starving and many going otd due to lack of money, and a lot of learning stopped. Who is taking achrayus for all the bittul Torah? I
This is not what I meant. I am saying that now the whole community claims that they are dedicated to learning despite everything. When people make claims, Hashem often sends challenges. So, presumably those who are not ready to learn in poverty and without rights, will move to other places or occupation. They don’t have to go OTD, they can move to England or Russia or Egypt, and work and learn there. I understand that any mitzva and learning are precious, but losing learning of those who claimed to be selfless but survived on someone else’s money. Sheker is not emes.
some > since the government claims itself to be fraudulently jewish,
current Israeli gov is based on a (qualified) democracy that includes non-Jews – both Arabs and non-halachik Jews. What is the problem with following rules of a democratic society? When Jews were drafted into Russian army, yes many tried to evade, but nobody called for a rebellion against the czar. Furthermore, the (religious) kahal was required to provide the soldiers and much corruption was happening, when poor and orphans were usually drafted. (one of my ancestors was). But the same seems to be happening now – heads of your community are negotiating who from your community will be drafted why trying to protect the rest. There is normal democratic process – as long as you do not lead into hatred towards other Jews because they are not voting your way.
some > I’m not claiming any levels. this discussion is about basics of being a yid and claiming membership in klal yisorel.
Minyanim at the kosel usually include all kind of yidden davening together. according to you, a “true charedi” would not be able to daven with all these other Jews. Mahbe all those charedim at the kosel not holding by your opinion? So, your choice is to either acknowledge that or put those charedim in the same cherem you put all non-charedim.
> . I’m sorry you zionism has taken you so far off
I do not consdier myself a zionist, so please take me off your misheberach list.> if you are attacking me personally here, please point out anywhere I have been anything but polite.
I did not try to trace specific personality. I just see the small cluster of anti-Z posters having very specific characteristics here – they do not bring a gut vort or a gut joke, or ask a good question. All quotes are about condemnation of Z. There is rarely concern about other Yidden, suggestions to say tehilim (as mentioned above – contrary to Satmar Rebbe). In short, there are many posters who bring some story and I, and maybe others, say – I’ve learned something or I’d like to emulate something this poster did. For example, there are chabad posters who defend positions that I find untenable, but I admire their passion in helping other Yidden and in focusing their learning on their Rebbe’s writings.
some> The kefira of zionism has nothing to do with it being “anti-religious”… this is explicit in the first paragraph of the subject of this post
I hear your point, but I think our statements that things changed still stand. The Rebbe’s first par seems to have two relevant statements:
(1) relying on ourselves (2) using force to leave exile.(1) is tied to being religious. Observant Jews acknowledge Hashem’s gifts and our limited role within it. At least, they should. If someone does not, he should be shown sefarim to read. You may project all kind of bad motives to RZ, but at minimum, we can say that RZ minimized this problem comparing with anti-RZ.
(2) is the past problem. Israel exists right now. If your position is correct, then presumably Jews were or will be punished for that in some way. Are we to “do teshuva” and leave EY in mass? any pre-20th century sources discussing what to do after “3 shevuos” are violated? For every mitzva, we usually have a warning, a punishment, and a way to do teshuva (when possible). Please bring these halochos and let’s discuss.
Notice that this is catch-22 – as leaving EY involves a lot of halachik problems, so given problems in two alternatives, you probably should sit and do nothing. And, again, why did Chazon Ish and everybody else were citizens of Israel and did not leave?
As to current situation, Israel is not involved in wars of conquest, but in defensive wars. So, it has nothing to do with any of your shevuos.
qwerty > I was in Shul this past Shabbos and the Rabbi pleaded with us not to speak any Loshon Hora and so I understand the gravity of the subject.
not about people you are talking, but I am wondering whether we are violating halocha by Chofetz Chaim not to praise someone who is not a complete tzaddik in public because you are triggering (my words, not his 🙂 someone to start saying negative things.
YYA> he Chazon Ish (who’s Litvish credentials can’t be challenged) said basically the same thing. Our job is to be Mekarev Yidden, not to judge them
A student asked Chazon Ish whether he is allowed to say kiddush in front of his parents (kibutznikim, and the mother not dressed appropriately). To what Chazon Ish replied: and you found a place for chumros when you are in front of your parents?
wtsp > The one and only thing I will openly express hatred toward is APIKORSUS, that which the Israeli government stands for and promotes.
government is a group of people. I don’t think you have problem with these specific people – they are similar to other people, I don’t think you hate everyone like them. As for them being in the government – they did not get there by force. They got elected by majority of citizens of Israel – same way as governments of other democratic countries (and I am not going to presume that you prefer Iran/Russia/China). Most governments we live in are far from perfect. We do not hate them, generally. We were for centuries saying brochos for even worse governments. So, it seems that the main frustration is due to the fact that the majority of those voters are Jewish – and they did not vote your way. I understand your feelings, and it is would be strange if a Jew did not feel any hesaron that exists in a Jewish country. So, the source of your frustration is, ironically, your own Zionism: you expect (justifiably) more from a Jewish country that from other countries you could live in.
One way to decrease your frustration: if you slightly increase your circle of acceptance who is amecha, you would realize that at this point observant and masorti Jews all together are probably a majority of Jewish Israelis – something that was not the case 80 years ago. So, if stop pushing them away, you might actually improve the matzav by purely democratic means.
> is that the ideology called “Zionism” is certainly kefira.
I think multiple people answered that what was anti-religious Zionism 100 years ago does not exist today. There is just nothing to argue then.
> escape exile through derech hateva “histadlis”
Not everyone is holding at high level of religiosity as you are. Shmuel was afraid to travel al pi Hashem being afraid of Saul and Hashem proposed him a way to lie his way through. Tanach and Gemora are full of people who were dealing with the matzav by fighting, negotiating, bribing, spying – and yes, praying too. So, feel free to stay at your madregah, but then
(1) do not expect others to subsidize your madregah,
(2) behave towards others according to the level you expect Hashem to grant you. Somehow, I see a lot of non-politeness coming from your camp. Satmar Rebbe was known for his sense of humor, maybe at least show that.LerntminTayrah> . Is the UN protectorate funding hundreds of thousands of chareidim in yeshivos and kolellim?
A good thought experiment. Under Turks, Old Yishuv consisted only of people who were ready to live in poor conditions supported by Yidden from other countries. So, the community would naturally reduce to the true number of tzadikim we actually have.
maybe we should stop feeding persian trolls right now?
YYA> The type of Zionism that ‘somejew’ and others are thinking of pretty much no longer exists.
Right. For sure this means that we need to look at things as they are now. But as for historical lesson, you can read it both ways – SR was right opposing it. Or R Kook was right that eventually Zionists will be more religious/traditional. Unfortunately, it is hard to learn lessons from history.
YYA > All noise to the contrary notwithstanding, on the person-to-person grassroots level, there is much more אחדות here than you may think.
I absolutely agree. I mentioned that in the thread on siyum hashas – most baalei batim I talked to would like to have everyone together.
Also, I know places where Rav is officially very charedi and proper, while somewhat sympathetic to others in his unofficial lashon. When he is not present, others might say tefilos for tzahal, medina, shevuyim instead of saying tehilim for unnamed reason as many places do.
user > The Israeli Government is simply a rebellious king
Israel is, more or less, a democracy with (too) frequent elections. So, the citizens are responsible for the government. So, if you think people are wrong, go and talk to them. Explain your positions, open schools, show with your behavior that yours is an honorable way to behave.
yankel > If they will – validly – point towards the many anti torah activities the state engages in . Then the answer should be al pi torah that we advocate for the cessation of those activities.
This may be a sign of … assimilation. Recent generations are growing up entitled to a lot of things from their parents and society in general. One American sociologist writes that recent sharp reduction in births in US is partly due to the “children” looking at how much their parents were doing for them – and realizing that they are not capable of the same, so they skip on the kids … So, here a cluster of population feels that society somehow “owes” them benefits and they are entitled to disregard their civil obligations because society is “not good enough for them”.
How bad the situation really is? Jews for centuries lived in societies that double-taxed us, limited jobs, murdered us once-in-while – and we continued being observant Jews. And most siddurim have brochos for the kings, czars, and kaisers and their families (by name – czarina, their children). Why suddenly, it is not possible to give a misheberach to a Jewish government and army? Maybe charedim are, in their hearts, biggest zionists after all – they expect that Zionists have to establish a halachik state, provide support to Torah learners (while still given them passports for occasional vacations) – and only then they’ll come out and join other Yidden.
What will happen when Moschach b’ Yosef comes and forms his army? Will he wait until yeshiva bochrim learn to operate the tanks or will he go with “the army we have” and the bochrim will be pleading to be taken in? start training now, if you don’t want to be on the sidelines.
yankel berel> Anyone honest , has to agree with this observation, notwithstanding his righteous anger at the real destruction Z has wrought upon religion .
I think there are social reasons here. B’H, most of those movements and threats you listed have disappeared or are not a big threat for us right now. So, who can work up energy to protest communists of yesteryear just because they put to prison your great-grandfather. Zionism, l’havdil, is present at least in RZ form, if not much in the original, and represents a threat if not to the Torah itself but to the guidelines charedi community lives in. So, more – and higher – gedorim are built up in order to “protect” the masses. See another recent threat where OP is wondering how come he is favorably looking at Israeli achievements while it is, supposedly, coming from sitra ahera. I don’t think this is sustainable in a long term. Charedim need to find a way to accept that there is value of what other Jews are doing. It should be easier in Israel than in US as the surrounding society is Jewish.