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> invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim).
Eida Charedit (that is not the same as large number of current haredim) was located at a couple of places under Turks. They did not control the country.
And I am personally fine if you want to separate from the country as Neturei Karta and live under your own protection. As far as I know none of Roshei Yeshivos hold by this and reside in the areas covered by Iron Dome.coffee, thanks, but I am still reaching for the navi. There are a lot of features of tlamid chacham mentioned in the gemora that I view as a criteria – such as if you seem him posting an aveirah in the evening, you don’t have to remind them in the morning as he surely did teshuva. And, in Avodah Zara, you can presume to buy items that require trust from their family, as the chacham presumably taught his wife and househoild. I am not holding by these madregas yet! I did achieve the appropriate level of humility, though, so I stop here.
Chazit > There was always a core group sitting in learning and not heading to battle
That’s a good argument, not ignoring Moshe’s words! Now the question is – can one self-select himself as a shevet Levi? Maybe let’s not discuss shevet Levi of those times, but look at more appropriate models: say, Zevulun-Issahar, when one learns and one works and they share schar. It is a contract, signed by both parties.
Why not pair someone who learns with someone who goes to the army, where they both appreciate the value of learning? I presume DL community will be able to do that within their own families. Presuming you are a chareidi – could you find a soldier who will be willing to join you in this partnership? Maybe you can increase your ties – you can help deliver supplies ot the army and share some of your learning when you meet.
duvid > biggest enemy today is the Israeli Supreme Court
you are illustrating what was happening, say, in 1920s Poland – where Jews (and Poles also) were involved in fighting between different subgroups – while ignoring two evil superpowers on their borders.
As to the army run by secular politicians – you probably live in a democratic country where majority makes the rules, whether it is Israel or US. Alternatives to democracies exist, if you are willing to live in Iran/China/Russia/Saudi Arabia. If not, you need to follow halocha and follow the rules of the country. It is normal for every country to have an army to defend against the enemies. And it is up to you to vote the right politicians, convince other people in the country to vote same way as you do be seeing how righteous you are, and by making the army more religious, including the leaders.
reb mutche, this joke is old – before Litvakim encountered modern Arabs, unless this joke is from the time of the Tannaim.
.doe> The Tribes of Gad and Reuben both fought in the battles to conquer the land and even stayed an extra 7 years,
Exactly, whether their original statement was clumsy and they planned to go fight or whether they accepted tochacha from Moshe, they joined the rest of AM Israel, while keeping their pastures. So, it is not late for those sitting out now to join tzahal and then return to their studies.
Those who start immediately arguing about different matzav are right of course, but you need first to accept Moshe’s argument of responsibility for your brothers whatever other issues are out there.
Reb mutche, you got the joke: for a litvak, it is enough to separate the brain.
On thicker ties: yes. Mine is thin and sharp.
> The biggest supporter of Torah currently is actually the Russian President, not the Zionists
Lozada zechus, someone broke into the account and impersonated the poster.
Just visiting is in the right place. The shailoh is not about gartels, but about low self esteem that someone from one tradition wants to pickup a different tradition because, presumably, it look frummer.
Just visiting suggests other ways to enhance your religiosity. To my taste, this list is a little self centered, especially schlepping your own siddur and shtender. I prefer to use same shul siddur, especially old worn ones that people from previous generation used. You can also buy some shtenders for the shul if it needs them. Also try to attend a shul that is struggling with getting a minyan and come on days where problem is the biggest. Also, path legally near the shul and leave space for pedestrians to walk buy, do not stand in hot shul blocking cols air.
I am a Navi because I can predict how this discussion will end: everyone will stand firm at their original opinion.
Biggest death rates in ancient times were due to child mortality and maybe communicative diseases and hunger aftet that. Gemora Taanis suggests start davening when a pandemic of people or animals, even pigs, happens in areas connected to your city by trade routes.
And when pandemic reaches your city, then run away or go into lock down.
And due to child and hunger mortality, probably wealthy adults were stronger and healthier than some now.
As to overall effect, just notice billions of people on the planet with decreased birth rates and figure it out.
Garters separate the head from the lower part of the body, and some have thicker heads thsn others …. anyway, a tie fulfills the minimum requirement.
A bigger question is – if you have zechus to belong to a menorah focused on intellectual achievements – why do you suddenly care about adding a string around your waist? You don’t feel frum enough because someone else doing something you don’t? Maybe look up some minhagim of say Rav Salanter or Alter from Slobodka, I am sure you’ll find some middos you can still work on. But maybe a belt is an easier path to feeling frum.
none > why don’t you just allow men and woman meet naturally
There should be a balance somewhere. When the world shows great progress, say in building cars or medicine, we should pay attention. But there are no great advances in marriages, so why copy?
> The Agudah’s political/laymen departments do not always accurately reflect the beliefs and attitudes of the Gedolim on the Moetzes.
How could that be? you are saying a gadol will work for/with an organization that espouses different views? What next, teaching at YU?!
on holiday? maybe he was drafted or volunteered? Most likely, he is at the demonstrations.
There is a teshuva by R Ovadia Yosef that allows invalidating marriages in Israel done outside of Rabbanut on the logic that Rabbanut declared that all marriages in medinat Israel are supposed to be under their rules, and whoever does it outside is not following “dat moshe veisrael”. That means that R Ovadia halachically validates the political arrangement and also recognizes the border of the Medinah. That is, if one were to marry in Suria, presumably this will be ok.
Common, is he twisting the words? Most of the quotes I bothered reading sound reasonable. He might need to ask mechilah from people who need to look at screens and screens of repeated quotes in a strange format.
Toras Moshe, is it clear from the context what period Chazon Ish is mentioning or was it a figure of speech?
Taking it seriously – such a woman would be also executed by greeks and romans, because that woman would be presumably trying to sneak into some men-only symposia or sport events. So, it is unfair to compare something that is common in our times and was uncommon at those times. Next, you’ll tell me that Rambam will be aghast seeing people marrying and learning before getting a job.
Here is an example: IIRC, there was a takonah to allow tefilin in the bathroom after an incident where (supposedly?) a student left tefillin outside and some lady picked it up and then came to the yeshiva and asked – who forgot this in my house? And the student jumped off the roof … I don’t know how gemorah knows that accusation was wrong, and I don’t know whether this lady was wearing pants, but her occupation seems clear. Still, she was allowed to come in the yeshiva and seemingly was not arrested there.
Menachem > Ever heard of Twitter? Lol
I don’t understand this attitude. It is assimilation, and I don’t care how much fur is on your hat. How can one dare to deviate from the integrity of our tradition? Just because the world is talking like that? Do you know what was popular during Mishna times? read some of the popular greek literature at the time – some of it will not be allowed on internet ourdays… Did Tannaim use their style?
The most frequent offense against Jewish discussion seems to be the “Free speech” allowance for using any arguments you can to convince the other side. In that theory, free speech enables all information to come to the table and leads to better decisions overall. There is certainly value to that where it belongs – politics, science, but our tradition is pretty clear about it: Beis Hillel eventually won the argument because they were quoting both sides and quoting Beis Shammai’s opinion first. Anyone who comes to quote “all rabbis say X” and quoting only some of them is in obvious violation.
coffee > fed their kids and that made their kids entitled
I agree, and many others. Someone reported one of the gedolim talking in Boro Park saying “what is a luxury for you – is a necessity for the kids”.
none2 > I don’t think you’ll hear them arguing
Be gentle here, most of them (in my experience) do not even know why their places of worship are called “temples”.
> Jewish courts enforced
yes, there is a case in gemorah when someone takes off red scarf from a lady and she turns out to be persian, so the rav gets fined by persian court but says it was worth the money.
But not always. Sanhedrin moved out of lishkat hagazit when there were too many murders. I imagine, head coverings were not up to your standards also when murders were popular.
There is also a question whether courts would enforce all midrabanans.
ExCTL, this makes sense. Other Ds, I understand. MD/PhD is also a thing for doing medical research.
BTW, the joke “is this reservation for a PhD or for a _real_ doctor” that was hanging around the department where I was doing it is incorrect:
original doktors were PhDs, medical doctors were stam barbers who did not pretend to do it scientifically.somejew > Arab world want to mass murder all Jews while conveniently ignoring the clear truth that this fear is a direct explicit result of Zionist political activity in the region,
How is this reasonable? Middle East is full of fighting between different groups. They are killing their own brothers who happened to believe in a different version of the same religion. And if you truly belief that this is all Zionist fault, then you should simply put your group together and go talk to any of the tribes in the surrounding area and arrange to move into their territory. I am sure, at least one of those groups will be able to understand and honor your position. Let us know your new zip code!
ExCTL, you had me at the second doctorate! I can’t imagine going for the 2nd …
Maybe it is a yakkish thing – Herr Dr Dr …a PhD in USA is really a sign that you are able to do research in general, not just on the narrow topic of your thesis?
then what does the second one mean!? That the first one was not good enough?!I would do Latin to read Roman history in the original. Even reading english translations show things that we do not have in popular culture. for example, I thought that Roman republic ended when empire came. Not in the eyes of Romans – they simply considered it a republic with an emperor … Gemorah seems to be of the same opinion. Avoda Zara mentions that Roman heads of state (on the example of Antoninos) is not hereditary like in other countries. Antoninos asked R Yehuda – I can ask Senate for one favor – should I ask them to make my son emperor or should I ask to lower taxes for Jews? Answer: ask them for the son, and let the son ask for the Jews …
Szatmár was seemingly first called for some Zotmar, presumably some Hun idol worshipper, so he was no saint.
ExCTL, your knowledge of Latin notwithstanding, “yeshiva alumnus” makes as much sense as “Yale lamdan”, at least until yeshivos put Latin into their curricula.
ZSK, I would not go that far about “definitely” and “bad behavior”. I am sure there are some seminaries and girls that behave and fit each other. Some parents have easier access to such than others … In this case, all I am saying – if there is no good seminary plan, do not get that upset. And, yes, in my family also, Mrs AAQ is more negative on seminaries than I. Knowledge is grief 🙂
But based on feedback from friends of our daughters, they are mostly happy post-sem, but at the same time, I was not able to draw from them any unique Torah or middos that they acquired. They got some confidence and some teacher they feel comfortable calling regarding hashkofas, but this seems mostly because they did not discuss life seriously in high school and home.
with passing of time, I see the opposite in America – we have several generations of Yidden who are raised in peaceful environment (B’H). They have very remote connection to any Jewish idea of suffering and challenges. They feel entitled to all the benefits of free society while not feeling any obligations because they learned that they are following emes.
while correlation does not imply causation, it is usually a necessary condition. so, outside of ridiculous examples, you start by noticing correlation, and then you explore a possibility of causation. And a possibility that Hashem is sending you a message here.
So, don’t ignore correlations. Say, your kid is upset or saying something inappropriate after a class X or after seeing a friend Y, worth exploring what that teacher or friend are saying. In terms of effect of others, there was a great experiment during covid (excluding those who did not believe in it) – some of the behaviors and opinions of the kids that we thought were their personal quirk turned out to change when outside of their social environment.
> Chareidim (Yeshivish and Chasidim) are the religious-right whereas the Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionists are the religious-left.
You are supposed to turn from their words not right, not left … I get it that we live in the left-wing society in multiple dimensions and many of us (you and me included) rail against the “left”. I can assure you that if US will become one big Alabama, or you will go back to Middle Ages, you will feel oppressed by the “religious right”.
We are talking about religious disagreement: should we keep away from the society or should we interact with that. Would then Rashbi be charedi and Yosef HaTzaddik a modern-O?
One way is to add a mitzvah to the wedding – set up new couples at the wedding. Easiest way to do that is to allow mixed seating for singles and some forethinking of how to seat people. Can probably be done some other way for those who think that their tradition is to not allow that. As a result, you are now spending money not on yourself but doing mitzvah and also those new couples save thousands of dollars on middlepersons and restaurant meals.
qwerty > *Either you’re right or I’m right. If you’re right so I never got to eat shrimp. If I’m right you’re losing out on Olam Habo.
Pascal wager. Sad that none of the 4 people heard of that.
> that you felt were “too Jewish” or “too right-wing”
This is a self-delusion that
– a group of people who do not go to college and dress in Polish 18th century levush are “too Jewish”.
– group of people advocating for governments subsidizing their communities and voting for left-wing politicians when they do that – are “too right wing”none2> that’s delusional cuz that’s the parents job
When R Kotler opened his yeshiva, he had to convince parents to send kids to the yeshiva instead of college – and parents were able to pay. A couple of generations later, parents are unable to support next generation. The idea of yeshivos being responsible for the graduates is not mine. This is being discussed as a solution for college problem, where third parties/government are lending money with no controls: let colleges provide loans to students and then recover based on their earnings. I think, this is way more applicable to yeshivos, especially those that raised several generations of students. If they were confronted with the responsibility for future of their students, rabbonim will have more information about what they need to learn.
> That “baal teshuva” movement you mentioned was only needed because the Zionists shmaded almost all the Jews there to begin with!
I think this explains some of your deep feelings about this topic – and it is based on a false premise. Most European Jews who arrived to EY in 1920-50s were not religious and and many were anti-religious to begin with. They were not made anti-religious by Zionists, but rather by attractive theories of communism/bundism/cultural movements in Eastern Europe before that – and thanks to inability of rabbis to stop that movement. As frustrated R Salanter said at some point – I can have a discussion with a French professor who is already totally non-religious, but not with Lithuanian Jews who are going downhill. There are occasional episodes – like Tehran orphans who were saved from Russia in 1940s by Polish government in exile, or Teimanim, but this was not the case for majority. All these people were saved physically by choosing Zionism instead of Bundism and leaving Europe; and from gehinom by choosing to organize harmless kibutzim instead of soviet labor camps.
besalel > [muslim hadith] never return to the land of israel ever again.
As I understand, muslims also have a problem with losing territory that once was muslim. While the other major religion is concerned about saving souls, Muslims are looking to acquire countries where they establish the law. So, losing countries is a setback. Two such major countries are: Israeli and Spain.
none2> low-fat diets may be associated with increased levels of depression
of course, but correlation is not causation – overweight leads to under-date to depression to diet.
Katan> the preference is to run away, not to fight.
This is exactly what Zionists did. So many Jews stayed in Europe fighting for “better future” against the Czar and everyone else – and did not survive. Zionists wisely escaped the continent on fire and enables survival of millions of Yidden. To what degree they did it with ruach hakodesh, or with wrong intentions that Hashem turned around to good – we can argue about. The “better” run away options were to run to America (that Rabbis warned against) or Uganda that was voted down.
fake > what relevance is there to whether the corporation is Jewish?
of course, it does. We have commandments and we are also enabling kiddush/hillul Hashem by our actions. Now, if you are a CEO of a public corporation, then you have a contract with the shareholder to maximize their value. So, if you want to be meshurat hadin, you would need agreement of the Board.
There was, I think, a textile factory in the 1990s with a frum owner that paid his workers for many months after his factory burnt and also rebuilt the factory – that generated a lot of kiddush Hashem with the press. All Jews in business are observed by others, sometimes with ayn tov, sometimes rah.
NP> R’ Moshe holds that Today that we have Kollelim, learning in Kollel is a profession.
Well, not “today”, but 2-3 generations back.
1) does R Moshe approve of taking government funds that are allocated for people who are not able to work?
2) what would R Moshe say about situation after leaving kollel, when the person is not able to find a comfortable job, as recommended at the end of Kiddushin?
This problem actually has a solution: yeshiva should be responsible for the well-being of the graduates. If the student later on has job (and because of that) shidduch or marital problems, then yeshiva pays from their direct budget expenses for unemployment; for retraining; for marital counseling; for tuition and apartments for children. As Alter from Navordok said when someone suggested that he will donate a share of his olam haba to someone ilvolved in public mitzvos – how about donating some of your share in olam haze?NP, on Kiddushin – Gemorah gives us ideas here, not necessarily final answers that may depend on social conditions. You can see it in the gemora itself. For example, they learned and then married in Israel and opposite in Bavel – because they did not dorm in Israel.
So, when there is an opportunity to have reliable businesses without umanut – gezunte heig. This was during years of R Moshe, where one could have run a local store in Brooklyn and have an honest living. If you see now yeshiva graduates trying to outsell each other on Amazon selling same smartphones, then it is an issue if metziyt: is this working or not?
Same goes for the siyum of Kiddushin: R Nehorai dramatic statement is there for the siyum, but it follows multiple Rabbis going into details of what is a good profession. Some notice that he says “to my son”. As most people at that time went into professions, obviously, the other opinions were important.
And, again – it is matter of facts: if R Nehorai’s son would have parnosa or middos problems, he would surely change his approach. As R Aha Yaakov does in the original sugya: where he confirms that his son is learning worse than him, so he lives the kid to work in the field and goes to learn himself.
NP,
if looking at big picture, I think we live in unprecedented times for last 300 years, and we did not yet learn how to live with the society that changed so much. We know how many opinions existed at previous crises – Bavel, destruction of 2nd BM, encounters with Greeks, Romans, Christianity and Islam …Looking at last 80 years: we have chareidi yesshiva or chasidic, RZ, “modern O”, Chabad approaches, each having their own achievements and downsides. We need to look honestly at that. Charedi approach achieved tremendous successes in creating and keeping large communities from remnants of what existed in Eastern Europe. I very much understand R Kotler’s approach confronted with American Jews who were so excited with material success that their children would join “American dream” with many of those assimilating. On the other hand, I see several issues that charedi approach does not address:
1) there are multitudes of Jews outside of their area of influence. They are not evil just because they are not wearing black hats. They are same type of Jews that we had in other communities over centuries. The difference is that they now can exist outside of Jewish communities. It is a big challenge of modernity. They need to be cared of. Chabad does a lot here. This was immediate goal of R Soloveitchik in 1930s – create serious observant Rabbis who can run shuls for these people (many of whom lived in small towns at the time).
2) how do we address modernity in a long term? do we pretend it did not happen and live like before? do we address those issues? On one hand, I find R Soloveitchik compelling when he writes (in 1950s): if we claim to have Truth from Hashem, then we should be addressing the world with our solutions, not hiding in the caves. At some point, if we refuse to live in the world Hashem gave us _today_, then we are not witnesses of Hashem’s Torah to the world… On the other hand, at what speed? It does seem legitimate to proceed slowly. As R Steinsaltz used to say, ask us in 50 years about halochos of electricity, ask us in 100 years about what was the meaning of Shoah, we are an old religion that takes time to come to conclusions.
3) when you understand that there are multiple legitimate approaches, and we might not know yet which one is right, and most likely each one is partially right, then there is a way to see who is reasonable – the one who appreciate at least some value in other movements, when they are doing it l’shem shamayim. There are many who do, and there are many who just advocate for their own movement.
yankel berel, what now strikes me is the lack of direct communications from Chofetz Chaim on this burning topic. He had an opportunity to publish multiple articles in the papers to publicize his opinion. He was very outspoken on many topics.
This seems more significant than competing quotes from people who heard something in private. It seems that Chofetz Chaim wanted to be the posek for all observant Jews and did not want to be part of the machlokes. How do we interpret this?
hakatan > you’re stating that, by Yiftach, the only “daas Torah” was after the war, not on his appointment as leader and general before the war?
interesting question. From peshat, it seems that same people who previously mistreated Yiftach, now called for his help. I don’t know whether that group consulted daas Torah. Do you have any meforshim on this topic?