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Mashiach Agent and Joseph,
Your opposition to life insurance is an indication of just how far you have sunk during the past few months… a shame now that we are in Elul!
Just a mere four months ago, you were extolling the virtues of dying al kiddush Hashem (see: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/being-niftar-al-kiddush-hashem), even to the point of implying that it is meritorious to daven for such a death.
And now here you are, denying the ability of Hashem to answer your tefillos for an early death at the hands of our enemies by refusing to purchase life insurance!
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/time-to-go-troll
popa_bar_abba,
What I wrote to you in this thread was way too harsh and unnecessary. I apologize.
Redleg,
You know, I sometimes think that, rather than offering chizuk and mussar to the CR, MA is really subtly mocking the feelings and ideas he offers with such seeming sincerity and, by extension, the other members of the CR that do, in fact, actually hold those views and attitudes.
Everything you wrote is correct, except for “subtly.”
WolfishMusings,
There are some days when I am so depressed, I question whether or not there is any good in anything that I do. When I that happens, I tend to think that there is no future s’char for me for the mitzvos (or anything else) that I do.
I get these feelings from time to time as well. I don’t think they are uncommon feelings. Persistent depression, however, should warrant a trip to the doctor. It’s not a sin to get a stomach virus and be unable to lay tefillin, and likewise it’s not a sin to have depression and be unable to experience meaningfulness in what you do. But if the symptoms are persistent, you owe it to yourself and to your family to get a checkup.
These feelings don’t actually stop me from doing the mitzvos
B”H!
I do it because it’s what I do, it’s what I was commanded to do, and that’s it.
And that, at its most basic level, is the point. Knowing that there is a “Commander” who has given you commands. All of us need a lot of building maintenance and repair, but you have a very solid foundation under yours.
Reward? Do I really deserve a reward for going to shul this morning and davening, especially if it’s just part of my normal morning routine?
Does a factory worker still deserve to be paid if he shows up and runs his machines all day because it’s his routine, not because he’s thinking about how he’s going to benefit the company?
Do I really deserve a reward for not eating seafood when the thought of eating crab disgusts me?
Do you avoid products with shellfish additives that wouldn’t be disgusting to you?
Does my not wearing sha’atnez make the world a better place in any conceivable way?
Yes.
I feel like I’m going to be told “so you did this things. Big whoop.
Compared to Hashem, anything any human does, no matter how strong, good, heroic, whatever, is a big whoop. But that’s ok. We are what we are.
Other people did them better than you did and under far more trying circumstances than you.”
I don’t think Hashem will be judging us in comparison to others.
However, when I have these feelings, I’m also reminded that someone who questions the concept of reward and punishment for the mitzvos has no portion in the World to Come. So, when I feel this way, I actually have no future reward waiting for me, because I’ve disqualified myself from it by having these feelings.
You don’t seem to be questioning the concept of reward or punishment, but rather your own personal worthiness. So of all the things to worry about, I don’t think this should be one of them.
Avi K,
Avram, actually according to a recent study most murders are executions. The murderer decided that the victim did something that makes him deserving of death.
“Actually” implies a contradiction to something I wrote. How does your statement or the statistics following it contradict anything I wrote? Deciding that someone “did something that makes him deserving of death” seems like a textbook example of impulsive thinking. So do murders arising from fights over property and domestic violence.
Ubiquitin, one can kill even more with explosives. Criminals can get either or make it without any problem.
Are hundreds of thousands of Americans injured and killed by explosives each year?
DaasYochid,
Your first example is not inherently true, but we do follow that approach in our weak dor.
Previous generations practiced taharas hamishpacha differently than ours?
Avi K,
Moreover, various and sundry implements can be used as weapons for both murder and suicide.
This is a variant of the old, “why bother putting up a fence along the bridge” argument. After all, someone bent on suicide would just find another way to do it if there were a fence blocking the way off the bridge. Research has shown, however, that that is not true. Suicide and many murders are impulsive acts, even if they are planned out over a period of time. A fence, a question like “how are you feeling today?” or waiting periods/background checks can be crucial to snap someone out of impulsive and reactive thinking.
Health,
Even if bought elsewhere, NYC laws apply!
Avi K and I were discussing criminals, not law abiding citizens. Please at least try to understand the flow of the conversation before hurling your insults.
zahavasdad,
The torah Rav Chaim learns is very important to this world, every second is precious and invaluable
Do you really believe this, or are you saying it because it’s what you think “Chareidim” believe?
You would interrupt his valuable learning to ask him your important shaila if you should buy a Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or a Chevy Malibu?
Would Rav Chaim interrupt his learning to perform a chessed? I would think so. Giving advice to a friend or talmid is a chessed. And where would you draw the line? Should Rav Chaim refuse to answer any shaila because it would interrupt his learning?
Is it silly to ask a shaila about whether to buy a Honda Accord vs. a Toyota Camry? Sure, I think so. But 1.) I have no evidence that there is a rampant problem of gedolim being pestered with automobile questions, and 2.) what does the fact that there are silly people in the world have to do with the debate regarding Daas Torah?
There is a story regarding Rav Moshe I once read, where a woman would call him frequently to ask very simple shailos, and would even call back to ask the same shaila again, or to double-confirm with him what his answer was. One of his attendants (or sons, I cannot remember) became angry because of the woman’s behavior, feeling it was disrespectful and a waste of the rav’s precious time. But Rav Moshe stopped him from rebuking the woman, and said that she was acting this way because she was a nervous and fearful person by nature, and could not act differently. In other words, to Rav Moshe, doing a chessed for this woman trumped his time.
anIsraeliYid,
one thing I heard many years ago is that one who does not shake a woman’s hand should say “I’m sorry, but for religious reasons, my wife doesn’t shake hands with men, and I don’t shake hands with women”. By phrasing it that way, you hopefully avoid insult by making it clear that the issue is not that you consider women unclean or beneath you – the restriction cuts both ways.
This is an extremely good point to think about when navigating this issue. I wonder what a good phrase would be for someone who isn’t married.
NYC has one of the strictest laws in the world but that never stopped criminals.
Despite parts of NYC being literal islands, NYC is not figuratively an island. In other words, NYC can put as many strict laws into place that it wants, but guns can always be brought in from outside of the city.
yet the murder rate is very low, especially when factoring out terrorism, underworld hits and “family honor” killings.
While murders and mass shootings get almost all of the media attention in the U.S., the large majority of gun deaths here are a result of suicides.
America has a huge population so statistically there will be more people who go nuts. Also the mentality regarding violence is very important.
Not just a huge population, but a huge quantity of guns. There are likely more guns than people in the U.S., and the U.S. population is almost 310 million.
Health,
How many would it reduce?
One way to determine that would be to examine the gun death rates in other Western countries that have more robust gun control laws. They are substantially lower than the U.S. rate. Of course the cultural makeup of the U.S. is different, so it’s impossible to have an apples to apples comparison, but I think it’s a safe bet that the gun death rate would substantially decrease.
I don’t think it would be a significant amount!
On what basis?
The DemonCrats solution is off-the-wall!
Who are the DemonCrats, and what is their solution?
Do you want to stop mass killings? Gun control is Not the answer!
So what’s your answer?
I like L. Graham’s video, that’s posted on YWN news.
He makes a lot of sense!
The vast, vast majority of gun violence in the U.S. is not perpetrated by people on the no-fly list. Sure it’s a good measure to take, but in terms of reducing gun violence, it’s like trying to cure a melanoma by wiping the skin with a cloth.
zahavasdad,
So is it Daas Torah if someone asks if they should buy a Honda, Toyota or a Chevy (People do ask such things incredibly) and you get an answer
Do you really think that there are rebbes out there who order their adherents to buy Toyota Siennas, threatening cherem to anyone seen driving a Honda Odyssey or G-d forbid a Kia Sedona?
One would certainly ask for a friend’s advice before making a big purchase if he thought the friend had some insight; why is it such a horrible thing to ask for your rav’s advice (or bracha), if he is your mentor and friend?
akuperma,
For example, the largest shooting incident in America (involving civilians being shot, and not part of a war) would not have been possible without gun control (several hundred recently disarmed civilians murdered at “Wounded Knee” just over a century ago – if they had guns the casulties would probably have been less).
Not to minimize the atrocity of Wounded Knee, but the shooting started during the disarming, not afterward, and between the Lakota and friendly fire, 25 soldiers died, and more were wounded. The Lakota were outnumbered and outgunned, so even if none had been disarmed and shooting started, their death toll probably wouldn’t have changed much – but the army’s death toll would have been higher.
zahavasdad,
Every Jew a 22
popa_bar_abba,
A .22 ain’t gonna stop anyone.
Fine. New slogan: Every Jew a F-22.
Joseph,
So if, say, Rav Belsky has a public psak halacha where he holds it assur to copy a friend’s music CDs, should a cautionary note be made when publicly relating said psak that the nuance may be lost, the information is hearsay and a private psak from him may differ?
1. The issue of copying CDs is intrinsically less complex and nuanced than the issue in this thread.
2. I’m certainly not advocating for cautionary labels on any posts discussing piskei halacha. Just an awareness that an actual conversation with a rav or attendance at a shiur will give one much more insight than posts in an Internet forum.
Would it eliminate gun deaths and crimes committed with guns? No. Would it reduce gun deaths in the U.S.? Yes.
Joseph,
Yet, dear aIY, you above commented that “I’m happy to share general Halachic discussions and “public” Piskei Halacha.” Surely you cannot fault others for, too, sharing public Piskei Halacha.
I’m not sure if anIsraeliYid would make the same distinction or not, but I’d think that something a rav said in a public shiur would be fine to bring up and discuss here, with the caution of course that much of the nuance may be lost, and the information is hearsay. Sharing a personal psak is something completely different, because it is something tailor made for the recipient, and is usually given in a private setting.
zahavasdad,
Companies caught doing such things pay a bigger price than what was saved.
This is not about being “caught”, and there would be no price paid whatsoever by Starbucks.
In the release you quoted, Starbucks labels this program a “service”, not a guarantee, promise, or even a policy. It’s no different than the “sugar in the raw” packets they provide as an alternative to the “regular” processed sugar packets for those who prefer natural foods. Unless they were guaranteeing cholov Yisroel milk, nobody would get in trouble if they switched it out, and they probably wouldn’t lose any business (this is an attempt to drum up business, not retain it). So I agree with DaasYochid. This is a very nice gesture on the part of Starbucks and a sign that they do research on their consumers, but it doesn’t really change the calculus as far as kashrus and CY go.
mw13,
Even if aIY did indeed get this psak from R’ Belsky (nothing personal, aIY – I just take everything I read on an anonymous internet forum with a grain of salt), it should be clear that this was an exception to R’ Belsky’s normal psak on the issue.
1. We don’t know what anIsraeliYid’s psak was, so there’s no way to comment one way or the other whether it was in accordance with Rav Belsky’s “normal” psak or not. In fairness to your assumption, anIsraeliYid does seem to be making a strongly implied juxtaposition, but he softens it with a parenthetical statement.
3. I agree 100% with anIsraeliYid that a personal psak should not be publicized, whether it is strict or lenient, and I feel uncomfortable with the entire exchange between him and Joseph.
charliehall,
I can’t see why this should be an issue.
Why what should be an issue?
I think The Wolf’s wife’s name is Eees, not Ees. Big difference.
gavra_at_work,
Better off to not start with it.
So it’s better to sacrifice the souls we have before us right now because of a potential down-the-road risk to future potential souls?
Joseph,
That comparison is off. The reasoning of the proponents of the idea I mentioned, as I understand it, is because in case of divorce of a non-religious couple they will likely not obtain a halachic get, thus causing much greater problems down the line.
If you tell a non-religious woman that tonight is Shabbos and to light, and she lights, then she knows that it is Shabbos. And any subsequent potential melachos done would carry a more serious penalty than if she did not remember it was Shabbos in the first place.
Joseph,
DY: I’ve heard some suggest that it is better for non-religious couples to not have a valid kiddushin. (I’m not suggesting this is a correct opinion.)
Should we then refrain, if given the opportunity, from helping a non-religious woman light Shabbos candles, because she might not keep the rest of Shabbos?
popa_bar_abba,
Also, who even cares. If she’ll never go again, why is there such an inyan do make her go before the wedding?
Are mitzvos so unimportant in your eyes that performing one even once is nothing to care about?
mw13,
Due to your posting on this thread, the probability that Popa’s Law is stupid has increased. Oops, this post is having the same effect.
Y.W. Editor,
How can I become a Mod?
I’ve heard that if one’s kids have two playdates with Joseph’s kids and still get invited back, he instantly becomes a Mod. Others say just one playdate with a re-invite.
nishtdayngesheft,
“Harambe died to save a child’s life.”
That is an inane comment. The Gorilla was killed because it was a threat to the child’s life.
RebYidd23 is a syntactic ambiguity troll, and you fell for it 🙂 Replace “died” with “was shot” to see the alternate meaning more clearly.
frumnotyeshivish,
One side follows what’s observed by the best experts to be best for public health while keeping the individual interests as an exceptionally high priority. The other side thinks they know better that the experts.
Uh huh, I see. Which side are you on? I can’t tell because of how balanced and fair your descriptions were. 🙂
You seem to be “poseach al shnei se’ifim.” From the vaccination conversations I’ve had with people, your stance seem uncommon.
I don’t think my stance is uncommon, but it seems that typically the louder the voice, the less nuanced the viewpoint.
newbee,
As for the millions of people throughout the world who were outraged by this AND his patients who willingly chose not to use him as a dentist, well I guess they are too dumb to see how smart you are.
I never said or implied that anyone upset by the killing of the lion is dumb. And on the contrary, if I found out that my dentist had a cruel streak, I’d probably seek another dentist myself.
My comments have primarily been directed at the venting of cruelty under the guise of protesting cruelty. Examples: one of the heads of PETA declared that the dentist should be hanged. The dentist’s children have received death threats. And I’ve commented on the extreme extent of the reaction – it seems rather disproportionate. And finally, I’ve commented when I perceived there to be mischaracterizations of what actually occurred, e.g., you claimed multiple times that the dentist tortured the lion for a week. Not once have I commented on intelligence, mine or anyone else’s.
Totally agree with Joseph here. Unless there’s a service charge stated up front (such as when the heating/cooling company charges $70 just to come to your house to look at the A/C), the general assumption is that estimates are a proposal for the cost of work, and are free.
Joseph,
Giving animals a name is a sick humanization of animals.
I think giving animals names is fine, but they should be obviously animal names as opposed to human names. For example, if I had a goat, I’d name it Lawnmower, or GrassBiter, or Hooves. My cat would be Paws, or Whiskers, or MouseDevourer. My dog would be named HydrantDisrespector, or StickCatcher.
Let animals be animals and treated like animals. Let humans be humans and treated humanely.
Agreed 100%. As the hysterical reactions to the gorilla and lion demonstrate, those who seek to treat animals like people run the risk of treating people like animals.
It’s the vaccine’s delivery vehicle that causes bleeding, not the vaccine. If the vaccine itself caused bleeding, that would be a big concern.
newbee,
I’m surprised that you called what the dentist did wrong and cruel and then say people cant point out that its wrong and cruel.
I certainly would not call the dentist’s experience as simply people pointing out that it’s wrong and cruel.
I will say publicly condemned instead of shamed, if that makes you feel better.
Then you would be wrong, because what happened to the dentist was far more than public condemnation of his behavior.
Behaviors that are bad and cruel (as YOU said they were) and lead to the further endangerment of species SHOULD be publicly condemned.
I agree, except that was not what happened to the dentist. And you’re conflating species conservation with animal cruelty – two very separate issues. Would you be less “outraged” if he had hunted a basset hound?
newbee,
Nothing wrong with shaming
Yes there is, especially when it explodes to a completely hysterical, disproportionate global scale. When it becomes not even about what the dentist did per se, but about others asserting their chest-thumping moral superiority and venting their own cruel impulses. And when it leads to destruction of property and outright harassment. I’m surprised that you get so bothered by what the dentist did, but condone shaming, which is one of the cruelest human practices, and is the root of crimes such as honor killings, witch burnings, and causes suicides.
One more question. You’ve stated or implied several times in this thread that Cecil was “tortured for a week”, like the dentist put him on the rack or something to make him talk. Yet in reality the lion was hit with an arrow, disappeared into the forest, and was found and shot 2 days later. Cruel? Yes. Torture for a week? No. Why the mischaracterization?
newbee,
Lions practice infanticide. If a challenging male succeeds in ousting or killing the head of a pride (e.g., by scratching, biting and wounding – oh the torture of it all!), subsequently he usually will kill the original male’s innocent cubs in a cold blooded, inhumane manner. Does this outrage you?
newbee,
Thank you. I don’t get why some people are against being outraged over animal cruelty.
I agree that what the dentist did was wrong and cruel. What I am against, however, is:
1. The use of “outrage” as a cover by some to exhibit their own cruelty – through social media shaming, death threats, and harassment.
2. The equation or even elevation of animal life over human life.
Health,
You’re not really answering the question. Hib is recommended for children under 5 years old, so your answer regarding 15 months of age makes no sense. Hib vaccines yield a weaker and shorter lasting immune response in infants than they do older children. That is the reason that multiple doses are needed in infancy and a final booster at ~15 months is given. And that is also why no further subsequent doses are needed after 15 months, even if the child didn’t receive the infant series. The immune response is more robust.
Joseph,
the reality is the dentist was within the law in his African hunting endeavor
True, but I think the organizers of his hunt were ultimately charged with criminal acts.
newbee,
I think you and I are on the same page with regards to the incident with the gorilla and young child at the zoo. As far as the dentist and the lion, I think that what the dentist did was wrong and was a crime, so some sort of penalty, e.g., fines, revocation of hunting license, etc. would be appropriate. What seems to have prompted this thread, however, was the absolutely insane reaction to the lion story, and now the child and gorilla story. What are your thoughts on that? Does the dentist deserve death threats and hanging? Should the child’s mother be tarred and feathered?
adocs,
I would really appreciate an answer to my question. What conspiracy theory in the vaccine thread specifically prompted this OP?
zahavasdad,
It was a Labruit meal,
Ok, so maybe it sailed through because it was a brand-name meal in a sealed container. When we’ve brought through food in Tupperware containers, we’ve been pulled aside and the containers opened and inspected. Still, a cramped airplane cabin at 38,000ft is quite different from an Amtrak sleeper/lounge/dining car.
zahavasdad,
I was once going to use one on a plane and the flight attendent stopped me from using it
A plane is a completely different animal from an Amtrak train. I’m surprised (and a little horrified) that your self-heating bag made it through the TSA security checkpoint with no problems. The trains on the other hand do not have a security checkpoint, and the range of activities permitted on a train is much larger than on a plane. I’d still ask the attendant in the train car first before using the self-heating MRE bag, but I’d be surprised based on my experience if the answer wasn’t “sure, go right ahead.”
frumnotyeshivish,
What defines the “sides” in your vaccine football game? What “side” do you consider me to be on?
Health,
The reason you don’t need so many shots when the kid is older, “fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older” is simply because Hemophilus bacteria is part of the normal flora!
So are strep and staph bacteria. What difference does that make?
zahavasdad,
Do NOT bring MRE’s onto the trains without asking. It might set off smoke alams or scare other passengers especially with the smoke
I agree that it’s a good idea to ask first, but I don’t think that self-heating MREs produce any smoke. They use a chemical reaction that heats the food to not much more than 100 degrees F. The kettle is much more problematic due to the required voltage and temperatures (but they don’t produce smoke either).
newbee,
Im pretty sure if someone had tortured to death a child for a week, and took a photo with its corpse there would have been outrage as well.
If you are attempting this as a comparison to the killing of Cecil the lion, well, that is just sick. Not to mention inaccurate.
RebYidd23,
Don’t call him a monkey! Respect his memory.
His memory? This seems as silly to me as the “mourners” bemoaning how the gorilla had just “celebrated” his 17th birthday. Really? He celebrated? I doubt the gorilla knew or cared that it was his birthday. So-called animal lovers anthropomorphize animals to absurd extents. And sometimes it is even harmful to animals. For example, most dog lovers hug their dogs, but most dogs do not like to be hugged, and exhibit non-verbal signs of stress. Hugging is a human way to show love, not a dog way. A more extreme example is the people who “rescued” a baby bison in 50-degree weather because “it was cold”, and the bison subsequently had to be put down because its herd rejected him.
Though the right decision was made, it is still sad that the zoo lost its gorilla.
Agreed.