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My only experience is with the “Auto Train”, a long distance nonstop Amtrak route between northern Virginia (near DC) and central FL (near Orlando) where you can load your vehicles and bring them too. Kosher food was available for dinner in both the sleeper passengers’ dining car and the coach passengers’ dining car. The meals were frozen double-wrapped chicken and rice airline style meals heated in an oven before serving. Breakfast was also served in the dining cars the next morning, and consisted of Kellogs cereals (served with non-CY milk), fresh whole fruit, and orange juice. There were muffins that were not kosher, and the servers (seeing that we were frum) offered us heated bagels that came from a package bearing an OU, but since they were not in a sealed container (nor double wrapped when heated), we politely declined them. I would certainly recommend packing extra snacks, or even your own meal if you dislike plastic wrapped frozen dinners.
Make sure to let Amtrak know that you need kosher meals for your trip, so they can have them ready for you.
BTW – the train cars I traveled in had outlets, but not sure if they had enough juice to operate a kettle. I’d doubt that would even be allowed. It might be better to bring a small cooler with sandwiches.
Health,
Like I a fool, I looked at the site.
You obviously did not look at it very closely.
You obviously misunderstood what they’re saying!
Nope.
The whole reason why you give boosters is because immunity wanes! You just don’t have to start all over again because you still have some immunity left.
I gave Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b – row 4 of the table) as an example. Look at the fourth row of the table. The table displays the minimum age for dosing (column 2), and then the minimum spacing between doses (rest of the columns, depending on how many doses of each vaccine are given). If you look at row 4, column 3, it clearly states that if the first dose of the Hib vaccine is given after the baby is 15 months old, no further doses are needed. If the first dose was given between 12 and 14 months, you wait 8 weeks and then only one more dose is needed. If you go by the CDC schedule, the baby gets 4 Hib shots (3 before the first birthday, and then a final one after a year). So delaying Hib does result in fewer boosters.
Btw, how did you become such a know-it-all?!?
This is not rocket science.
Health,
But at least admit your post is false: “but if you spread them out enough you miss out on a couple of boosters and gain the same immunity.”
Not false.
Google “CDC Catch-up Immunization Schedule” and go to the first search result. For several immunizations (e.g., Hib), fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older.
adocs,
What conspiracy theory in the vaccine thread prompted your OP?
Health,
He handled what he thought was good for the child and what was good for his business!
He obviously doesn’t need your family’s business.
Another doctor in the practice actually stepped in and had a consult with us and said he would be fine with us spacing out the vaccinations more. Since there’s no guarantee in a group practice which doctor you’d see during a sick visit, however, we took our business elsewhere. And we’re happy with our new practice just like Gamanit.
Health,
And what would the Baker do with the recipe?
He’d put it in the suggestion box, aka the garbage!
He’d guard it like jewels and send thank you notes weekly.
you have the option of going elsewhere!
Why on Earth are you still repeating that point to me? Of course I do, and I already did. And I can also say that the previous doc handled things stupidly.
feivel,
This is the entire crux of the matter as far as I’m concerned.
The typical physicians view of his role vs the patients view of his role.
Absolutely. When the cards are down, it’s less about public safety and more about perceived slights of honor.
Health,
Would you go into a bakery and tell the Baker – that you have a better recipe than his Challah & they should change to yours’?
No that’s an unrealistic analogy. I wouldn’t give a bakery my wife’s recipe, but I might sell it to them. At a restaurant, however, I very well would ask for sauce on the side, substitute this side for that, and decline the free sodas that comes with my kids’ meals.
So how come the Anti -vaxxers think that they have the right to tell medical professionals what to do?!?
Wow, what a mindset. If I tell my doctor that I want to space out vaccinations, I am not overstepping any boundary whatsoever. I’m not telling the doctor what to do, the doctor is telling me what he thinks I should do, and I am responding to him. I am making decisions about my own family. And that is not only my right, it is my obligation.
How far do you take this deification of medical professionals? If I see a doctor about to make a medical mistake (wrong medication, about to saw off the wrong arm, whatever), do you think I should remain quiet, because I have no right to tell medical professionals what to do?!? Ridiculous.
If you don’t like what your doctor is doing – go somewhere else!
Good advice.
Joseph,
Avram, what would a middle ground constitute and how might someone taking a middle ground on this issue act on that position vis-a-vis vaccinating his children?
The extremes are narrow, but the middle is broad. And different families have different situations, needs, and concerns. For example, in the situation I described above about the infant having a scary reaction after vaccines – the doctor should discuss what happened with the parents in a compassionate and sympathetic way (and actually report the reaction), and make recommendations that take the parents’ concerns into consideration and are based on the actual risk/benefit ratio for that family at that time, not scare tactics. Better for the vaccinations to be spread out, or even one or two declined, than to demand the parents stick to the schedule and threaten to deny them medical care, which will potentially result in the kid not getting any more vaccinations (or checkups).
Some thought can go into this. If parents want to space out vaccinations and their child is in daycare, a doctor can recommend that it is a good idea to not delay vaccinations such as Hep-B and Pertussis. If the baby is at home all of the time, maybe those vaccinations can be done after the first birthday. Etc. etc.
feivel,
I see you weren’t disputing that point at all anyway. You just wanted health to explain how removing thimerosal weakened vaccines.
Thanks, I’m glad that you understand where I was coming from. I reread the posts too, and now I want a burrito.
catch yourself,
I don’t remember anyone asserting that vaccines were the sole, or even greatest, factor in all disease reduction and prevention.
I didn’t think that was ZD’s intention, either.
I believe it was asserted via zahavasdad’s rhetorical question. Otherwise, his post makes no sense in context.
Please don’t get off topic now with a specious discussion of statistics. For purposes of this discussion, it doesn’t really matter if a disease killed ten percent or fifty percent of children globally before a vaccine was developed.
I agree, it doesn’t matter in terms of whether the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks. In fact, the reality of 150 years ago really doesn’t factor into that calculus either. What matters to me is the promulgation of misinformation. If one wants to be on the side of science and reason, then he should make sure his statements and arguments are factual and correct.
This is a classic smoke-and-mirrors debate tactic.
More than smoke and mirrors, such mistakes provoke an argument to logic fallacy in response, where “anti-vaxxers” latch onto misinformation such as this and then claim that the conclusions of “pro-vaxxers” are also erroneous. If you read my posts, I am not trying to do that. In fact, my intention is the opposite – to correct such errors so that they are not used to muddy the conversation.
The main discussion is about whether the possible risks of vaccines outweigh the benefits, not about whether it was vaccines or improved hygiene which proved more beneficial overall.
The problem is, “pro-vaxxers” over-inflate the benefits (and risks of inaction), while “anti-vaxxers” over-inflate the risks and downplay the dangers of disease. This leads to a lack of a middle ground and flexibility.
zahavasdad,
200-300 years ago people’s,lifespans were much shorter. Many children didnt even live to adulthood.
Please explain how childhood diseases which once killed over 1/2 of children have become basically a non-event today
1. Better sanitation, indoor plumbing, safer water and food supplies reduced cholera, dysentery, food poisoning, and other similar diseases.
2. Antibiotics, which saves children from diseases such as scarlet fever, pneumonia, etc.
3. Better nutrition.
4. Expert medical care to treat injuries.
5. Vaccines
I’m not intending to downplay vaccines here, because they are an important cog in the wheel of disease prevention, but they were not the number 1 factor in reducing death rates, and trying to make that argument is furthering misinformation.
DaasYochid,
Your new doctor is a lousy doctor. If (s)he was any good, she’d have too many patients to have time to answer all the patients’ questions.
lol. The best part of this thread is the ironies.
Health,
That wasn’t your point. You asserted that the “government” weakened vaccines due to pressure from anti-vaccine people. I’m asking a direct question on that statement, and deflections in response won’t work”
And I responded to that! Why did the government remove Thymersal from vaccines? To please the anti-vaxx nuts. I wasn’t trying to prove that the government weakened the vaccines. This is common knowledge, whether you know it or Not!
No you did not. You have to explain how the removal of Thimerosal weakens vaccines. That is the off-the-wall part of your assertion. If the drug companies and government agreed to remove a preservative from vaccines that was concerning people, then good for them!
DaasYochid,
Avram, welcome to a world in which most physicians couldn’t make a living if they spent the amount of time with each patient that’s really needed.
Understood, though it doesn’t excuse a doctor treating a patient badly. And unfortunately, the world you are welcoming me to is also a world where trust in doctors is eroding and people use the Web as a source of information.
DaasYochid,
I’m glad they have the time to do that instead of treating patients. My pediatrician doesn’t. Maybe he does waste his time on this nonsense anyhow, at the expense of my kids or other patients; I don’t know.
Or maybe your pediatrician is over-scheduling patients to the point of shortchanging them. Nobody wants to be the one waiting for over an hour past the appointment time in the biologically hazardous waiting room, but if a practice is not budgeting at minimum 10 to 15 minutes of Q&A for each patient, then they are not doing their jobs well. Or, at the very least, they can say, “this is an extremely important issue that we should discuss further. Unfortunately, we are overbooked today, so I cannot take the time needed to thoroughly respond to all of your questions in a way that I think would be most helpful. Let’s schedule a consult in a week or two…” Patient leaves happy, doc gets two fees from one patient.
feivel,
I think you meant; “studies that did not find any significant side effects of vaccines.”
Not studies that prove vaccines are safe. No such studies exist.
That would be an impossible requirement. What is “safe”?
Health,
S/o posted previously that PCP’s aren’t interested in discussing vaccines, they already made up their minds.
This is even more true with the Anti – vaxxers!
Ok, so while the doctors are turned away on one side with their arms folded and saying harumph, and the “anti-vaxxers” are on the other side saying harumph, there have been increasing gaps in vaccination in the middle. What’s more important, saying harumph, or trying to change things?
ubiquitin,
you missed a few steps first the plumber says…
I think you are a good example of a doctor doing his job well. Please mentor your colleagues 🙂
As I stated above, there will always be conspiracy theorists who remain unconvinced even in the face of clearly explained facts. I think they are the minority of people going into doctors offices and asking questions about vaccines. There is a cottage industry of alternative medicine businesses they can patronize and work with like-minded people.
Rather, pediatricians are by and large addressing parents who care deeply for their children and honestly want to do what is best for them. Whether there is an emotional fear (it’s never easy to hold your kid while a stranger sticks them with a needle full of cold, uncomfortable stuff that makes them cry, then swell and sometimes get a fever, and sometimes taking action with a small risk is scarier than taking no action with a small risk. etc.), a concern (hey, my kid screamed non-stop for two hours after getting 5 vaccines at the last visit, and one of the injection sites swelled up huge. I’m worried he might have had a reaction to one of the vaccines, but he got so many, there’s no way to tell which one it was), or even misinformation (I read on the Internet that…), parents deserve to be treated with kindness, compassion, patience, and included as a part of their child’s care. Not seen as an enemy to be vanquished.
Health,
If the statistics change, all of a sudden, the Anti-vaxx guys aren’t going to change anything they do!
Their selfishness is going to cause harm to themselves!!!
I disagree. What happens when there is a measles outbreak? You see lines of people outside of high school gymnasiums waiting for vaccinations.
catch yourself,
For the record (this story had actually slipped my mind), when I brought my six year old to the pediatrician for her annual checkup, the doctor asked if she sits in a booster seat in the car (required up to age 8 where we live, believe it or not).
When I responded in the negative, I was given a rather stern talking to by the doctor.
When my friend brought his obese ten year old son for a checkup, the doctor (not the same one) read both the parents and the child the riot act, and gave them, in no uncertain terms, the prognosis for his condition.
Apparently, some physicians do take these issues seriously.
Glad that some physicians do take those issues seriously, since they hit at the top of the list of causes of childhood death and disease in the U.S., but it’s too bad that the doctors in your example responded to their patients so poorly. I’m sure that ten year old feels really good about himself and his doctor now.
Health,
Perhaps he was joking?
Mishlei 26:18-19 for such a doctor.
Rigidity – I agreed to in my previous post.
This isn’t bullying! He’s being factual, even if the guy didn’t like that!
To refuse a child medical care because the parents want to delay a vaccine is not only cutting off the nose to spite the face, it is downright bullying. It was not a statement of fact, but a threat intended to shut the parents up and let the doctor do what he wanted to do right then and there.
Health,
Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been? And that I’d have no knowledge of others’ experiences?”
Do you know the definition of”probably”? If not, ask Feivel.
Yes I do, and my response doesn’t change. Who cares if you made a definitive statement or a probabilistic one? Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been even to state what is likely or unlikely?
What? Don’t you think that I’ve been on the other side of the fence also?!?
Sure, but you brought up your many years of experience in the medical field, not your many years of experience as a patient!
I wasn’t talking about your personal experience!
And I’m talking about elephants and butterflies. Prove me wrong!!!
You obviously didn’t begin to understand my point!
I was pointing out that the removal was for the benefit of the Anti-vaxx nuts!
Who cares if doctors give out free burritos in their offices for the benefits of “anti-vaxx” nuts? That wasn’t your point. You asserted that the “government” weakened vaccines due to pressure from anti-vaccine people. I’m asking a direct question on that statement, and deflections in response won’t work.
DaasYochid,
Especially the part about my kid eating a candy bar not killing your kid,
Your kid is much more likely to squash my kid at the bottom of the slide than my kid is to give yours polio. Or even the unvaccinated kids down the street.
Seriously though, you can do a blood test to check for antibodies if you’re really concerned that your kids don’t have immunity to something.
and the part that even the minority of doctors who don’t have huge egos are also upset at the anti-vaxxers.
I don’t believe I have ever asserted that a majority of doctors are bad apples. That said, the ones I have met who don’t have huge egos patiently and tirelessly explain the benefits of vaccines, actually take a minute or two to sympathize and address the parents’ fears, and are flexible to scheduling vaccines as parents feel comfortable, even recommending which ones they feel are more important and should be done asap.
DaasYochid,
What a poor comparison. If the anti-vaxxers had their way, we’d have massive outbreaks of horrible diseases. It’s no wonder he gets visibly upset.
Thanks for the hyperventilation demonstration 🙂
Yes, there are off-the-wall knee-jerk “anti-vaxxers” who cannot distinguish between small and tiny probabilities (e.g., panicking over tiny risks in vaccines while poo-pooing orders of magnitude higher fatality rates in diseases), or who hold by pharmaceutical conspiracy theories, etc. I imagine that those types existed long before the infamous debunked autism study, and they will continue to exist, just like there will always be some people who refuse to evacuate the coast before a major hurricane.
I really think, however, that a large part of what we are dealing with in the recent increase of unvaccinated children is in big part due to a breakdown in doctor patient trust and communication.
yehudayona,
I saw the title and I thought it another thread about the presidential election.
LOL!
The anivaxxer movement is perhaps the only issue which can get him visibly upset.
Do you doubt his motivation to encourage vaccination?
No, not at all, but I wonder why the vaccine issue causes such hyperventilation among the medical community that many practitioners cannot dispassionately and compassionately explain the benefits of vaccines and the fallacies of the anti-vaccination advocates. Nor can many allow for alternate scheduling (which is what many parents want, yet they get painted as “anti-vaxxers”).
Do doctors get “visibly upset” when they see an obese child in their exam room eating a candy bar? Do they make sure the parents have a properly installed car seat, signal their turns, and don’t run red lights? That they don’t smoke? Do they ever mention keeping the handles of cooking pots turned away from the edge of the stove so little hands cannot grab them? Those are all much bigger health issues for kids right now than the vaccine brouhaha.
Rigidity – I’ll give you, but putdowns and fear mongering, you’ve found common?!?
A friend of mine wanted to have his kid receive all of the vaccinations, but wanted to space them out more than his pediatrician was recommending. The pediatrician declared, “so which deadly disease do you want your child to die from??” Fear mongering. Then the pediatrician stated that my friend’s kid would not be seen by that practice unless they kowtowed to their faster vaccination schedule. Rigidity and bullying. He also insulted my friend’s intelligence (not knowing that he is a statistician with a PHD) – putdowns. And this is hardly the only incident I have heard of from others (not to mention experienced myself, and not just in regards to vaccination).
Doctors are not getchkes.
Health,
You probably had one bad experience & then decided to generalize about medical practitioners.
Just laughed again, thanks. Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been? And that I’d have no knowledge of others’ experiences?
My experiences are from being in the medical field for many years.
Irrelevant. This is about the patient’s experience, not the provider’s.
For the most part, my posts are based on truth, not theory!
Yeah? Tell me more about my own experience and knowledge, despite not knowing who I am.
It’s a fact – that the government removed Thymersil [sic] from a lot of vaccines. WHY????
Thimerosal is a preservative containing a form of mercury that prevents bacteria or fungal growth in medicines for injection. Please explain exactly how its removal “weakens” a vaccine, or how its removal increased public avoidance of vaccination?
feivel,
Diphtheria no. Rare
…
Tetanus yes.
Pertussis depends on current situation.
Usually (at least around here) these three immunizations come together as the DTaP vaccine. Do you request separate Tetanus and/or Pertussis vaccines in order to avoid the Diphtheria one?
Health,
I hate to point out, but you’ve posted previously that you practiced medicine as an eye doc. So what do you know about vaccinations?!?
Are you a physician and immunologist?
DaasYochid,
Okay, so the anti-vax movement comes from lack of trust and comfort with physicians. That doesn’t make it right or any less dangerous.
Never argued that it did. But if the actual goal of the greater medical community is to increase vaccination rates, then perhaps they should do some soul searching and recalibrate their response to people… because it is clearly not working.
Health,
I just got a good laugh. Most of the practitioners that I know aren’t like your portrayal!
Glad you’ve had good experiences for the most part.
If yours’ is, how about going elsewhere?
We did.
The reason that the “anti-vax” movement is so popular, is because our government is liberal. They gave into them – like watering down the vaccines!
Now I just got a good laugh.
1. Opposition to vaccines is coming just as much from the extreme right as it is the extreme left. Some of the Republican presidential candidates even questioned vaccines.
2. You’re trying to refute anti-vaccine conspiracy theories with… conspiracy theories? Good luck with that.
If more physicians responded to their patients with patience, flexibility, compassion, and information rather than bullying, rigidity, putdowns, and fear mongering, then the so-called “anti-vax” movement would hardly be the problem it is today.
I’m guessing it means overseas.
He forgot to mention that he said “Baruch Shem” a bunch of times and then went to a later minyan that doesn’t say Hallel.
🙂
DaasYochid,
It is not inappropriate to say that he caused him to be a vehicle for K”H.
Yes it is.
No it isn’t.
Yes it is.
No it isn’t.
Yes it is.
No it isn’t.
There, I let you have the last word.
No you didn’t.
Oops.
WolfishMusings,
So, why don’t people do this?
Because I never thought about it. But hey, good idea.
Why do people make it harder for their tallis and tefillin to be properly returned to them if lost?
Because I’m a horrible person who doesn’t care about causing others inconvenience, apparently. >:-)
DaasYochid,
I’m not sure why you can’t see the distinction between causing his death and causing that he be a vehicle for kiddush Hashem.
I don’t think my problem is a failure to see that there is a distinction, but rather that I think it is inappropriate to say something like that whether or not there is a distinction.
Joseph,
Avram, is it not obvious the decision of Hashem’s “mind” was that Reb Elechonon should leave this world al kiddush Hashem?
Of course.
How does attributing Hashem’s decision to the Chofetz Chaim’s tefilos detract from his honor?
Because A: I don’t think the Chofetz Chaim would have appreciated such an attribution to his tefillos, and had such a statement been made during his lifetime, it would have caused him pain, and B: Who are we to make such attributions in the first place?
DaasYochid,
Question: Are we being selfish when we bentch someone that he should live ad meah v’esrim? Should we rather wish for him that he [R”L] be killed by terrorists for being Jewish?
Nobody claimed that someone did or should daven for someone to die.
No nobody did, however, the assertion was made that R’ Elchonon died al kiddush Hashem in his 60s because of the tefillos of the Chofetz Chaim. This is the Chofetz Chaim’s beloved talmid we are talking about, and surely the Chofetz Chaim davened for him to live a long life of Torah and sweet goodness, as follows from your answer to my question. If someone approached me and said that someone beloved to me was murdered by terrorists because of my tefillos for myself, I would be hurt tremendously, even though I know dying al kiddush Hashem is a tremendous zechus for the neshama. That’s why nobody in their right mind would ever say something like that to somebody. Do we not owe the holy Chofetz Chaim at least that same regard (even though he has passed away)??
Joseph,
From the beginning I think you have perceived the objection to mik5’s statement as being due to the concept of dying al kiddush Hashem vis a vis R’ Elchonon, and that assumption has largely driven the subsequent discussion. That’s not it for me. My objection is based on regard for the honor of the Chofetz Chaim, and asserting that we know the “mind” of Hashem.
Question: Are we being selfish when we bentch someone that he should live ad meah v’esrim? Should we rather wish for him that he [R”L] be killed by terrorists for being Jewish?
Joseph,
All he indicated was that he was zoche to die al kiddush Hashem.
Not quite. He indicated that Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman died al kiddush Hashem because of tefillos the Chofetz Chaim davened with regard to himself.
DaasYochid,
Would you rather assume that R’ Elchonon died before his time?
Rabbi Elchonon was in his 60s when he was murdered. I also think he personally saw his murder as a kappara for the Jewish people.
It’s not a matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying; it’s s matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying shelo al kiddush Hashem.
Is being brutally murdered by sonei Yisroel the only way to die al kiddush Hashem? What about having the opportunity to say vidui and Shema and demonstrate faith and trust in Hashem even under the shadow of death, as opposed to R”L passing suddenly and unexpectedly?
DaasYochid,
Why do you need to read it that way? Why not read it that his tefillos resulted in the z’chus, but that he died exactly when he was anyhow supposed to?
I don’t understand how dying al kiddush Hashem can be separated from dying. Also, I can understand the tefilla that, if/when it is my time, let it be meaningful, but that is different from coming in ex post facto and saying with authority what happened with someone and why.
Joseph,
Thank you for pointing out your response. I don’t think it was “up” for viewing when I wrote mine.
He suggested Reb Elchonon was zoche to die al kiddish Hashem when the time came for him to leave this world; not that Reb Elchonon was zoche to die.
I understand this point in theory, but isn’t it presumptuous for a human being to say whether another man died at his proper time? Or to assert with certitude what was in the Divine calculus when a gadol was murdered? It doesn’t sit right with me. And furthermore, such thoughts can CV”S lead to callousness. When Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel was murdered al kiddush Hashem before the eyes of Rabbi Yishmael the Kohen Gadol (which was actually Rabbi Shimon’s wish, because he did not want to witness the murder of the Kohen Gadol), did Rabbi Yishmael exclaim what a marvelous zechus it was that Rabbi Shimon received, or did he weep?
I have to agree with Sam2 and Syag Lchochma here. The disturbing part of mik5’s first post was not his comments about what Rabbi Akiva and the Chofetz Chaim davened for themselves, but rather his assertion that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefillos resulted in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s death.
Canola is a contraction of the words “Canada oil” (or “Canada oil low acid”), and comes from a specially bred variety of rapeseed that has low erucic acid. The plant is somewhat related to turnips.
ubiquitin,
sorry, I didnt mean that at all. I’m sorry if it cam out that way.
I meant it where the Lawyer was convinced the judge had it wrong. Much like IF a Rav where to say Chazir was kosher.
Ok, I get it now.
Witnesses in the case where foreing speaking. LEts say Swahili. There was aSwahili speaking indivdual in the group. He was cautioned not to pay attention to the Swahili speaking witnesses therby “translating” for himself. but rather to only listent o the translator’s translation of the witness.
Wow, crazy. I have served as a juror, and I know that sometimes something gets said that is objected to, and the jurors are later asked to disregard it, but to tell a juror that s/he must listen only to a translation seems extreme. I guess the opposing attorney can make sure there’s another Swahili speaker who can catch mistranslations and raise an objection.
RebYidd23,
Babies need at least two people watching them at a time.
Why?
They can’t spend all their time at home.
Carriers, strollers … ?
They don’t ask their caregiver before putting something in their mouths.
Ok?