Ben Levi

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  • in reply to: What's wrong with the draft? #923899
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I think the question is phrased wrong.

    The real question is, Why are the Gedolei Yisroel opposed to the Draft?

    Phrasing the question that way would provide a simple ansewer.

    The Yeshiva Velt, which by and large are the students of the Gedolei Yisroel, oppose the draft as the Gdolim taught them.

    in reply to: Giving Tzedkah for Private Jets #920699
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    ZD

    I highly doubt that any Tzeddaka collector coming around after Shachris is collecting for the Fund to FLy the Satmer Rebbe.

    As for your comment about Rav Shach.

    You are quite mistaken, Rav Shach lived right near Yeshivas Ponovich and not a 2 hour bus ride from yeshiva, he usually walked the short distance.

    BTW there is probably no 2 hour bus ride in the entire Bnei Brak!

    in reply to: A Modern Orthodox Critique of Uri L'Tzedek #921187
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Charliehall,

    Actually I have learnt more then a few Chapters of Nezikin and if you take the economic principles advanced by liberalism which in a word is “fairness’ and compare them to the economic principals codified in the Torah they are amazingly at odds.

    Democaratic principals look askance at the idea of a Monopoly yet the Torah advocated the din of Hasogas Gvul which means that if a store is open cometition is not allowed to open in the area (of course this is the extremly basic law and a deeper understanding of Choshen Mishpat is needed to understand where and how it is applied.

    While legally if a borowwer defaults on a loan the lender can only collect from “ziburis’ the lowest class of land Chazal raised it to “beinunis” the middle and stated expressly that the reason is becuase in order to encourage lending the compenstation must be increased in acase of default.

    Now of course there is a fundemental idealogical difference between the Torah outlook and secular outlook.

    Liberals have attempted and contiue to attempt to legislate “fairness”.

    The Torah views “fairness’ as being the province of HKBH and man can only ensure, to the best of our abilities, that law ensures fairness of opportunity, quite similar to Conservative priciples in reality.

    in reply to: Tent City #917064
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Actually in the Public Meeting about the Tent City one person after another expressed concern with the plight of the homeless.

    However the solution is not for a “Tent City” to be put up right near families with little children.

    Not when people in the Tent City are not just homeless many of them are not mentally stable and the problems from the residents of the “Tet City” are quite dangerous.

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Sorry Shmendrick

    As you often point out you have a trained and well honed Gemarokup, as such you should be able to understand the “chiluk”

    The Gemora in Beitzah is giving a havtach to an individual, that individual should understand that he need not worry about his expenses on account of the money spent “L’Talmud Torah”.

    However the Yeshivos are the ones charging the money they must charge the person according to what they see.

    It so happens there is a “minhag” by some that they do not “bargain” over schar limud and the mekor for this minhag is the aforementioned Gemorah.

    A slight point however is that when a portion of the “Schar Limud” goes towards secular education, one must understand that presumably the Havtacha is not for that portion of the tuition.

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    If I undertand the OP correctly he is asking how can the reason that Reish Lakish prohibits Marital Relations be because of “Nosah B’ol im chaveiro” if the Tanna Kamma quite clearly permits it based on the number of children?

    If thats the question the snasewer is really quite simple.

    The question is whether or not the obligation of Pru U’revu which is a mitzvas aseh overrides the qobligation of taking part in the pain of the tzibur.

    Now If I recall correctly all the commentaries agree that the Gemora in question is discussing the obligation of “noseh b’ol im chaveiro” I do not recall a single source that states the arguement is over whether or not one can burden the “tzibur” with another mouth to feed.

    There of course are several indications that cannot be “pshat” One would be that if I recall correctly the Gemora after that centers around a lenthy discussion over how far the obligation of Noseh B”ol goes.

    Another point would be that when it comes to “education” the gemora in Meseches BEitzah says quite clearly that the money to provide ones son with a Talmudic Education is derived from HEaven and is not part of the ordinary allotment so it would be difficult to understand how the a trouble with parnossa would be a basis not to have children.

    in reply to: Is anyone buying Ami Magazine this week? #914740
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I actually thought the interview was done extremley well.

    I also am curious as to what the objections to it could be.

    Ami has already interviewd Charles Hynes for his side.

    They wrote a detailed “introduction” stating they are not taking sides and are simply on the advice of Rabbonim,seeking to ensure both sides of the story are heard.

    The Defense Attorney himself made frequent emphasis of the point that abusers must be prosecuted, however he astated that in this particular casse he believes his client is innocent.

    in reply to: Where is Rabbi Levin On CT Shooting?! #914458
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Rabbi Feivel Cohen the author of Badei HaShulach is one of the senior Poskim in AMerican and Senior Rov in Flatbush.

    Rabbi Hillel David is the same.

    Rabbi Yisroel Belsky shlita is A rosh Yeshiva in Torah V’das and Rov to many.

    They have all indicated quite firmly and clearly their “Conservative postions on who to vote for.

    Laws do make it hard for them to endorse from the podioum.

    in reply to: Where is Rabbi Levin On CT Shooting?! #914455
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Why oh why do I keep being accused of Being this person or that person.

    I post under one name ne one name only.

    Ben Levi.

    As for the ridiculus assumption that a person stating that Sandy Hook and Hurricane Sandy are different means Kefira in Bechira.

    That is ridiculus.

    And no we can not know for sure why something comes.

    But we do know for certain that if Hashem sends a punishment it is becuase of issurim and to issue a wake up call.

    Again as has been pointed out that is the Tochecha its pretty clear cut.

    And if we want to stop these tragedies from happening the most effective prevention is not listening to the Doofis in Chief Al Gore it’s rather by making a serious Din V”Cheshbon.

    And please dont slander Chareidim or Rabbonim by stating they are all in the Democrat voting machine.

    Lakewood voted by close to 80% for Christie specifically because of the Toeivva issue.

    Where there “askonim” who felt Corzine should be backed because he would extend a highway.

    Sure.

    The Kollel Youngeleit did not listen as beared out in the facts.

    Seems to some people their Torah Values trump Money even in todays day and age.

    And the Rabbonim in Queens followed it up by all backing the Republican in Congress again becuase of Toeiva (though people tried to spin it as Isreal, it wasn’t).

    Theres a famous line.

    Youre entitled to your own set of opinions but not your own set of facts.

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Well first of their is Shimshon HaGibor who was influenced for the bad by his wife.

    Then of course there is his parents who were the opposite and actually the Malach appeared to his mother not father at first to tell her Shimshon would be born.

    This is from memory so might be wrong.

    in reply to: Double Standard in the Coffee Room #914557
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Sorry clicked twice.

    in reply to: Double Standard in the Coffee Room #914556
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Far east,

    Have you ever studied what Torah U’Mada is?

    Have you ever tried to actually gpo out and read up on why a new term had to be invented when there was aperfectly good term out there called Torah im Derech Eretz?

    Please Dr. Norman Lamm’s “shittos are in the books he wrote.

    Go read them.

    They are”nt what you want them to be.

    in reply to: Double Standard in the Coffee Room #914550
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    The COfee Room is really a unique place in that it actually allows a no holds barred conversation that actually lead to people learning things they did’nt no before and relearning things they think they knew.

    Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam does not refer to the fact that through Talmud Torah one can be mekayim the entire Torah.

    The above statement is true but not what the aforementioned Mishna is referring to.

    The mishna is stating a simple fact that the LEarning of Torah is equal (Kneged” “all of them” all Mitzvos.

    The Vilna Gaon actually says an interesting thought based on that.

    The Gaon states that each word of Torah is equal to all 613 mitzvos.

    On Shabbos the Gaon writes each mitzva one does earns schar times 613 hence each word of Torah that one learns is 613 times 613.

    Pretty interesting, No?

    As for those that stae Modern Orthodoxy emphasis “Torah U’madda?

    What exactly is Torah U’Madda stating that secular knowledge is equal to Torah?

    Hate to break it to you.

    But Yes that is Kefira in the eyes of Torah Jewry which believe in the Torah of Hafuch Buh V’Hafuch Buh Dkuloh Bu. (Toil in it (Torah again and again for all is there).

    And please do not qoute “Chochmah Bgoyim Tamin” becuase all that says is that the Goyim do have chochmah not that that Chochmah is not found in Torah.

    And please do not start stating that RSRH believed in Torah U”mada what RSRH taught and wrote about was Torah im Derech Eretz.

    For a clear explanation on the vast differences between the two complete with a myriad of clear and outright demonstrations of the aforementioned differences, please see Rabbi Joseph Eliase’s brilliant and comprehensive commentary on The Nineteen Letters.

    And look Torah Judaisim has not changed their Hashkofas a bit, as evidenced by the fact that on this whole thread specific examples have been given of MO “changing” (thats being charitable) of Torah Law while not one single example can be given of Torah Judaisim changing Torah Law ch’v.

    And yes if you hold beliefs and have a sense of priorites that are not in line with the millenia old tradition of Torah Judaisim.

    Beliefs that go against Hlacha then Torah Jews will state that is Kefira.

    in reply to: Shocking Study of Modern Orthodox OTD Rate #941664
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Actualy the problem with Kastner was not really that he was a Zionist but rather that he was an accomplice to mass-murder as was basically proven in a court off law and transcribed in full by the the secular zionist BEn HEcht in his book Perfidy.

    So Satmar quite understandbly does not glorify a man that was for the most part a murderer who did one thing to “try and allow people to ignore his entire “resume” that so happened to save the Stmar Rebbe’s life.

    in reply to: The Power of a Gadol #914377
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    You can sya what you want however a close member of my family was told by Doctors that he would never walk again.

    Several Gedolei Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel were approached.

    They all said that the erson would recover and everything would be fine.

    Less then two weeks later the person started to walk.

    The irreligous Doctors stated it was a miracle.

    in reply to: Chinuch #913929
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    TLIK,

    So you seem to feel that the fact that Therapists do no thave veto ower over a Rebbi’s curriculum is a problem.

    You seem to admit that the problems now-a-days have gooten worse.

    You also admit that in schools nowadays there are trained therapists to assist or take care of children with issues.

    This was not the case 15 years ago.

    It is the case now.

    So the school structure has changed, and those responsible for certain parts of chinuch have changed.

    The change has meant the bringing in of out side secularly trained therapists.

    The problems have grown worse, many times worse then they ever were before.

    Incidentally the exact same trajectory has been seen before in the PS system,

    As for the Rabbonim you qoute.

    No I have not read most of them excluding Rav Shlomo Wolbe zt”l and I find it interesting that you qoute him.

    I suggest you look for a small soft covered volume of a bunch of Rav Wolbe zt”ls letters that were published in honor of his shloshim.

    One of the longest letters that Rav Wolbe writes is one where he goes through the basis of phsycology, it’s founders, his issues with two main “hashkofos” of phsycology (one of them being self esteem) writes that he beleives that physcology is responsible for the widespread KEfira in BEchira that is found today.

    He ends by writing that the “war” of our generation is to be “marchik”, to push away the “daas’ of phsycology from our camp as much as possibe!

    The letter is brilliantly written in the methodical crystal clear manner that anyone who has read of Rav Wolbe’s works is accustemed to so I would recomend you find the Sefer and learn it.

    In this letter he makes reference to a much longer piece on the topic which he included in a Journal in Eretz Yisroel.

    And by the way, yes, if my car is broken I bring it to a mechanic becuase mechanics have demonstrated they have the ability to fix cars.

    Phsycology has been around for decades and the only thing they have demonstrated is widespread failure everywhere its “teachings” have been adopted.

    in reply to: Chinuch #913927
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    TLTIK

    My Rabbonim consider things treif?

    You have no idea who my “Rabbonim” are,nor what they consider treif.

    To state that the “professionals” have not been allowed to influence our systemmeans that you are willfully ignoring facts.

    Which Litvish elemntary school does not have a full lineup of resources of proffesional therapisrts to deal with eny and everything?

    In Lakewood there are massive organizations that actually command a good portion of the school district budget providing thereapists for everything.

    Chinuch has not changed? Discipline is not a “last resort”?

    Maybe you got stuch in yesteryear, however in todays schools discipline has been virtually outlawed.

    If you wish to change what is facts on the ground at least don’t

    sound like a tape recorder.

    And about the role modeling.

    Yes that is 100% accurate.

    But guess what.

    Role Modeling begins at home.

    Rabbeim and teachers change each year.

    Parents don’t.

    And if the Parents don’t want to realize that they are the ones responsible to raise their children, they are the ones that must instill permanent valuesa in their children , well then there really is not much to do.

    in reply to: WAKE UP!! Our Yeshivas & Schools Are Open To The Public!! #913744
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Zdad,

    Actually if you are busy cleaning a counter with a bleach and someone attacks begins to verbally assualt you and get aggresive it’s pretty instinctive to throw what in your hand, in other words, the bleach at the person.

    And it’s also pretty universal that the way one shows disgust and revulsion at someone else is by spitting.

    in reply to: Chinuch #913925
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    TLTIK

    I fail to see what my “blind perceptions” are.

    I think I have made clear I acknowledge that there are problems in the community.

    In fact I have made the point that since around 15 years ago when the famous JO came out and certain practices, and proffessions were introduced to our communities since it was made clear that it was the lack of them that were causing these problems and the introduction of them would solve these “problems” these problems have gotten worse.

    You seem to be unable to ansewer that point.

    We were told they would get better instead they gor worse.

    I furthermore pointed out that Satmar is acommunity which successfully dealt and solved two of the biggest crisis that are facing the ORthodox Jewish Community.

    Tuition (in itself a problem) and the fact that children are not being allowed into school becuase of tuition.

    This was done by Rabbonim and without “proffesionals”.

    Secondly were the Chasunah Takonos which have undenioably been most succesfully implemented by Satmar.

    Again this was done without proffesionals.

    It was done by askonim working under the direct leadership of Rabbonim.

    A third crisis which I would mention is the ranging spread of technology in our community.

    The unfiltered access to the internet is recognized by everyone.

    I repeat everyone including non-jews to be dangerous (I beleive something like 20% of abuse starts through Social Media).

    To the best of my knowledge it once again is not proffesionals solving this crisis.

    It is Rabbonim and Youngeleit, that have made heavy inroads into stopping this and thereby arresting one of the greatest single causes of tragedies now-a-days.

    You have failed to address a single point.

    You have failed to explain how it is that the introduction of certain chinuch practices championed by “up to date” professionals and “marital training” techniques has led to the complete breakdown of the moral fabric of East Cost Society.

    You have failed to explain why in the 15 years since these practices have entered our communities, in the 15 years since these “professionals began to be treated somewhat seriously in our communities.

    Things have gotten worse.

    I believe I am making valid points.

    I further believe that I am asking valid questions.

    I do not see where you have even attempted to ansewer me.

    In my buisness I get a couple of years to set up shop.

    Sooner or later though you have to turn a profit if however you continue to lose money you go bankrupt and lose every investor.

    When does an entire field that has never once been able to show succcess on awidespread basis admit that they are wrong?

    When do we start to realize that there are problems and they have to be solved but the solutions we’ve tried are not working.

    They are making things worse, much worse.

    in reply to: Where is Rabbi Levin On CT Shooting?! #914432
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    HaKotan,

    Just to add to what you wrote.

    Chazal do state that the mabul came about as a result of Mishkav Zochor.

    in reply to: Chinuch #913923
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    TLTIK,

    T went through yeshivios my relatives went through yeshivos my friends went through yeshivos.

    To state that Yeshivos only focus on acedemics.

    Has not one single shred of truth to it.

    None.

    You honestly sound like you do not actually know what actually takes place in yeshivos?

    I am happy to tell you that you are seriously under informed.

    What do you think is discussed at the weekly “ethical lectures” i.e mussar shmuezzen, that take place in most yeshivos?

    Do you have any idea on the focus on charachter development that is made in most yeshivos?

    And you seem to have over looked my question.

    Rabbeim, Rabbonim and and Yeshivos as a whole can quite proudly point to the current not past ,

    Current success.

    The overwhelming majority of their graduates B”H have been able to build successful homes.

    Have complete families.

    The Divorce rate in the JEwish World is not 59%.

    There are B”h no examples of children going on shooting rampages in our schools.

    Are there problems.

    Of course.

    If there were no problems then Moshiach would be here.

    However the “therapist” model the Mental HEalth proffesion can point to no similar success rate.

    They can point to no successful communities.

    Each and every place they have been given the defference that you seem to be asking for the result has been disaster.

    In our communities they have unfortunatley been active for over a decade.

    They got in on the premise that they can make the problems better.

    Each and every single place they have been active has gotten worse.

    And sadly the communites that give the “professionals” the most sadly have gotten worse faster then anywhere else.

    You are right.

    in reply to: Chinuch #913920
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Wolf.

    You have a point, however then you have to also recognize that the family’s in which Rabbonim are asked to get involved are also in the same situation,

    So if you realize that then one must ask themselves if any Rov would fail to resolve problems his Kehilla brings to him over 50% of the time do you really think he would remain a Rov?

    And again with Rabbeiom in schools and or classes within schools that are geared towards children with difficulties. If the Rebbi or School failed over 50% of the time do you really think anyone would still be sending their child thier?

    Well if someone would then I suspect the real problem is the parent not the child.

    in reply to: The Weberman Trial By 5TJT Staff (this brought tears to my eyes) #913505
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    MM22,

    No the reason people are opposed to him is not because he is simply trying to “out” abusive behaviour.

    It is because of what he does (accuse people with no proof of anything) and use foul lanquage to embarrass an entire community in a public manner.

    Syog Lchochma

    B”h it seems you are extremly innocent, however please look up the “pre-scool exual abuse scandals” of the 1980’s.

    To state, basically, because his “victims” (who btw claimed to be a young teenager, not a child of 5 or 6, when the actions took place) he must be guiloty shows a pretty high level of ignorance.

    As for why I chose to believe he is innocent.

    Last I checked the Torah says “Dan L’Kaf Zchus.

    If a single person shows up in BEis Din to accuse someone of something and can not produce any evidence to show they are actually making a valid claim such as “Kula d’lo posuk” that person recieves malkus for being Motzi Shem Rah.

    I have been told of no evidence what so ever that this girl is doiing anything but setting about to destroy some ones life in an act of revenge and an attempt to get rich.

    And I admit, the court case and all those on her side have further covinced me since in article after article, post after post I have read people twisting every which way to “prove” his guilt but no one can produce a stitch of evidence.

    If so many people trying to find anything on him could find absolutley nothing thats a pretty good indicator to me of his innocence.

    Now as Health has written,should any real evidence be presented against him I would of course have to rethink my position. However I don’t see any of that.

    And BTW I am fully cognizant of the fact that there is real abuse cases out there.

    IMO it is real abuse victims that suffer the most here.

    There is a theory that the reason the “abuse” claim became so discredited for decades in the non-jewish world is becuase of what happened over the abuse scandals when the accusation was believed no matter what, a standard of proof was not required, a witch hunt atmosphere developed, and people went to jail even though they were innocent.

    Those people were eventually proven innocent and the “abuse” claim was discredited.

    That is what is scary.

    How many people now will no longer even listen when someone screams abuse precisley because of this trial?

    in reply to: The Weberman Trial By 5TJT Staff (this brought tears to my eyes) #913494
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Sorry,forget about a Al Pi Din, there is no court of law in which someone stating that four other anonyomous people approached me,

    I can’t tell you their names but trust me their their, would be admitted as evidence.

    Even in Webermans trial someone had to take the stand even the Non-Jewish court system recognizes the utter stupidity of even allowing such eveidence to be admissible.

    Especially considering this.

    Someone comes out says that someone else is guilty of a heinous crime.

    You’ll see the evidence will come out in trial.

    Well there was a trial.

    There was no evidence.

    One girls word against one mans word (and a whole bunch of others that vouch for him).

    Including women who do not exactly “toe the party line” to put it nicely.

    Then all of a sudden said person who was shouting from the roof tops the other persons guilt starts talking about “others” who have now come forward.

    Others who are anonymous (if they exist, which I doubt).

    Others who for years could not come forward even anonymously!

    Who only found our Rabbi Yackov Horowitz’s number now.

    Years after the actions they claim took place.

    These others who live in a community notorious for its rumour mill where reputations are broken with the snap of finger based on rumours, and yet the person in question was considered a man of upstanding charachter with not even a hint of impropriety mentioned about him.

    But now there are others.

    An entire investigative team could turn up absolutley zero evidence.

    Zero.

    The girls boyfriend was willing to take the stand and testify that she told him she would make up such a story.

    The girls 2 older sisters were “clients” of Weberman, they did stand back and allow their parents to send their sister to this “monster” without breathing a word?

    in reply to: Chinuch #913917
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Zdad

    I would think that Hashem is having Nachas.

    The Torah says one cannot believe Motzi Shem Rah and Satmar is simply stating we do not believe Motzi Shem especially after an exhaustiv investigation. Could turn up no proof what so ever.

    TLIK

    You are 100% right Satmar is unique in the way the schools are run and we all should learn from them and yes there are unique in their Chasunah Takonos we have tried to learn from them and failed.

    The point is that to state that Satmar does not fix whats wrong is ridiculus.

    They have demonstrated time and time again that they do learn from what is wrong and they do fix it.

    Meaning they fix it.

    Instead of having an endless crisis.

    They just have to feel there is an actual proven crisis that need a real solution and the solution must be better then what exists.

    The 90% stat btw sould be quite on target.

    I was in the school system before the famous JO on KIds-at-Risk came out.

    And yes 10% of children were for one reason or another “falling through the cracks”.

    If in the ensuing years when virtually all of the JO’s recommendations at the time were implemented things have gotten worse.

    Should’nt we be asking those that wrote in that issue and it’s follow up.

    “If you said things would get better if we listened to you then why are we worse off now?

    And if you were wrong then, why should we believe you now?”

    Furthermore to state that I do not know what is taught in the Mental Health field is quite ignorant.

    I have close reletives with “letters” after their names and have actually read textbooks on the subject in question.

    As for Rabbonim that don’t know “facts on the ground”.

    Well if they get heavily involved in something with out knowing facts on the ground then they are incompetent.

    Please make sure that if you ever need a Rov you find a competent one.

    B”H in my Kehilla as well as most Kehillos that I know of that chose their Rov they found one that is quite competent.

    Of course there are those out there that are not so.

    Always been like that always will be.

    Incidently considering 50% of couples that go for “marital counseling” by Mental Health proffesionals wind up divorced I would think that means a good portion of the proffesionals are incompetent.

    (The stat is qouted in the intro to 10 minutes a day to a better marriage by Rabbi Meir Wikler who Rabbi Chaim Pinchos Sheinberg zt”l says in his Hakdumah is to be relied on “depite the fact that he is proffesional, some haskomah)

    in reply to: The Weberman Trial By 5TJT Staff (this brought tears to my eyes) #913486
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Chalilchase.

    I am happy to be able to eduacate you since you seemingly are unaware of how things work in Satmar.

    Those who are part of the chassidus are quaranteed a place in school.

    If they cannot afford it the tab is picked up by others.

    Hence no tuition crisis.

    As for Chasunah Crisis.

    Are you unaware of the Chasunah Takanos in Stamar.

    They were made and enforce period.

    To detail them is pretty hard since it would take pages and pages as they literally cover everything.

    As for the Bleach Thrower.

    Considering it was in self-defense of the person why would they have to deal with it.

    As for the spitters.

    I don’t know of any, but if someone uses foul language to abuse the Rabbonim and Askonim that lead a community then in a public forum and seeks to publicly disparage the community that said spitters are very grateful to, then I would think he should be happy that spitting is all that happens to him.

    If he does not like his community feels that he knows better then them and feels his “children” are at risk.

    Why does he continue to live there?

    I actually think that it is a pretty remarkable display of restraint on the part of Satmar that he can live in the heart of a community that he publicly embaresses, curses and mocks in the most disgusting manner and all he can complain about is being “spat” at.

    Oh and I would think those that he alleges spit at him don’t exactly feel he is “protecting” their children, do they?

    in reply to: The Weberman Trial By 5TJT Staff (this brought tears to my eyes) #913483
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Chalilvchas,

    Satmars are unwilling to admit they have any imperfections.

    Are you really really serious?

    Lets take just one example.

    Lavish spending at weddings putting parents in debt.

    What has been Satmar’s response and what has been other communities responses?

    Who has been more effective?

    Or is it that you just do not like the Satmar community’s way of dealing with things.

    Meaning that they do not see a need to broadcast their problems on the front page of every newspaper and have endless “commitees’ and “professionals” that deal with it endlessly and are very satisfied that they can point to one success here and another there.

    Rather their Rabbonim and askonim meet behind close doors and come out with a community wide solution to address said crisis.

    But then we must feel left out when so many “crisis” that are in other communities that now wish to give Satmar advice just don’t exist in Satmar.

    Lets see.

    The see the “tuition crisis”

    Doesn’t exist in Satmar.

    The “Chasunah Spending Crisis”.

    Does not exist in Satmar.

    No fun at all, is it?

    in reply to: Chinuch #913914
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    ZDad,

    Would you mind showing a source for that?

    Somehow I never heard it.

    And Yes you are 100% percent if one is Mechallel Shabbos then one is oiver on Chillul Shabbos.

    In acuality to say that persons Chesed does not “count” is wrong.

    Each and every Mitzva that someone does “counts”.

    And they recieve reward for it.

    Just as each and every aviera “counts”. And one is punished for it.

    As for Chillul Hashem.

    You seem to misunderstand, so i’ll explain it.

    No one is justifying the actions this man is accussed of what so ever.

    Period.

    That means No One.

    However what his community is saying.

    Including many women who were counseled by him and did allow thier names to be used is that he is innocent.

    Let me repeat it nice and slow.

    They are saying he is innocent.

    Now since the numerous secular sources brought their entire investigative resources to bear.

    An entire trial was conducted.

    And not one shred of evidence was produced other then this girls word against his.

    Combined with the fact that as far as I am aware her Boyfriend at the time is willing to testify that she said she would make the story up, a fact no one is disputing, (though for some weird reason he was not allowed to testify.

    I find zero reason to believe that this Man is guilty.

    And no two people saying all of a sudden that they were approached by others who are unwilling to come forth and state thier accustations does not constitute “proof”.

    in reply to: The Weberman Trial By 5TJT Staff (this brought tears to my eyes) #913481
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    What do you mean Health.

    The Willi bashing is quite understandable.

    Don’t you see any standard Shabbos in Williamsburg you can see how much less concerned they are with men and women acting friendly with each other then in the Five Towns.

    in reply to: Chinuch #913912
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    The Little that I know

    So lets pay attention to what you write.

    Outside appearances are the problem?

    Are you aware of the factr that the most stringent Chasunah Taknos were enacted successfuly by the Satmar Community to counter exactly what you wrote about?

    Hows about the 5TJT consult with them how to successfully implement what was considered impossible?

    Oh on including every child, do you know how Satmar runs their school system if someone does not have money to pay tuition ask a member of the Chassiudus how much they are asked to pay.

    You’ll be surprised at the ansewer. It’s about 15,000 dollars less thaen in the Five Towns.

    Real Chinuch?

    How come Stamar has managed to build a huge network of Bikur Cholim completley staffed by the women that are products of their school system.

    All volunteers, waiting in line for the chance to do chessed for Klal Yisroel.

    And don’t tell me about others.

    B”H all of Klal Yisroel does chesed.

    But Satmar takes it to another level and we all learnt from Satmar.

    I am litvish and I know it.

    And the people growing up to take roles in the tremendous chesed that defines that community have gone through their school system that infused their very essence with a snse of achruyus and

    caring to all of Klal Yisroel.

    Real caring.

    Not speeches about caring.

    I lived it when I was hospitalized and saw for weeks on end the work they do that frankly I would not have believed if I had not seen it with my own eyes.

    And no they don’t publicize it and they don’t want thanks.

    One of the Satmar Women replied when I said that you.

    In the zchus of the Chesed may Klal Yisroel not need it anymore.

    The chinuch that produced the hundreds of women that form the backbone of that orginazation is failed?

    How about the 5TJT ask them why the girls comning out of their school system are so different then the ones coming out of the Five Towns?

    And don’t ansewer with the minority.

    You and I both know there are exceptions.

    I chose to focus on the 90%.

    You can focus a=on the 10%.

    The educated Social Workers who consult?

    Educated by whom?

    Frum Ehrileche people or irrelegious proffesors that are for the the most part athiests?

    We need to change our foundations to listen to them?

    W

    here are there schools?

    Where are the successful marriages in their communities.

    Whats the Divorce rate in thier communities.

    Whats the birthrate in their communities?

    How many children in thier communities grew up in two parent

    households?

    How many children in America grow up in single parent hpousholds now?

    What is it about 70%?

    They should teach Satmar about chinuch? About Marriage?

    If we needed lessons about divorce we could learn from them, after all they do have experience.

    And how to care for cats and dogs they could teach us also.

    But about raising kids Al Tahros HaKodesh.

    I’ll trust the people that dedicate their lives to Torah first.

    in reply to: Y.U. Abuse Scandal and Cover-Up #913533
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    WIY

    In other words if someone clearly states that certain acts are reprehensible if proven to take palce.

    However said person also states that one cannot destroy a person and along with it his entire family, nor can they slander a whole community without any proof what so ever other then one persons word.

    Then that person is “covering up”

    In other words no longer is the slightest shred of proof needed.

    Or perhaps you mean that if a young attractive girl convinces 12 jurors in NYC that a middle aged religous man did unspeakable acts to her for a period of several years without her parents having a clue and she kept quiet for years out of “fear”, a fear that seemed not to have prevented her from doing anything else that she pleased whether her community approved of it or not.

    That constitues proof.

    Oh and the fact that millions of American citizens stated they viewed BO as more competent on the economy also is clear proof that he is.

    Just wait for the boom times they a’comin.

    in reply to: Muttar for a Rabbi to discuss the awful shooting on Shabbos? #913259
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I do not know what is wrong with someone stating that they are more concerned over Jewish tragedies.

    I view other Jewish people as extended family and I think it is natural for someone to feel more concern over members of their family then other people.

    Of course this does not mean that my heart does not go out to thos eparents suffering from this horror right now, however I do not view non-jewish people in the same way as I view Jewish people.

    Which I am sure is the same way vice-versa.

    Ex. Several years back during the Second Intifada I was in the car with a group of people in the the US.

    We got word there had been a bombing in a certain part of Israel.

    I asked urgently if it was in the Chareidi section of that city.

    Someone else blew up at me.

    How can you even ask that, and irreligous jews mmean nothing to you.

    I kept quiet rather then explain I have a vast number of reletives throughout Isreal.

    However the person who blew up at me came to understand it on his own.

    The next day I recieved word my first cousin was in the blast and her child was killed instantly R’L and she, and her husband sustained severe injuries (that have left their mark till today).

    My point is that we are naturally more concerned with our own then with others.

    Of course if someone would view themselves as an equal member of the non-jewish community this would not apply.

    in reply to: Y.U. Abuse Scandal and Cover-Up #913531
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    WIY

    No I am not iced.

    And I don’t have access to the Daily News nor would I beleive anything they wrote.

    In fact I did not know that there were people who did beleive what they wrote.

    And I was not aware that there was a heter to beleive a MOtzei Shem Rah on a whole community.

    in reply to: The Weberman Trial By 5TJT Staff (this brought tears to my eyes) #913475
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Is the 5TJT serious?

    First off they happen to be leaving apart of History out.

    The “gezeira” was for a specific qouta of Jewish children to be ponied up to the military.

    The rich people paid for poor peoples children to be kidnapped and used to fill the qouta so that theirs would not.

    I am in no way justifying what they did, it is horrible to say the least.

    But do not make it out as if they just set about doing evil to other peoples kids.

    That was not the case.

    They were faced with a horrible nisoyon (test), one that we can thankfully not imagine and many of them failed.

    They failed horribly.

    As for the part of the 5TJT that presumes to tell the Williamsburg community how they must “act” and what they must do.

    I hope they realize that is patently ridiculous.

    The community they refer to is by and large Chassidish and the particular one in focus is Satmar.

    I do not think that the Satmar Rabbonim are going to turn to the Five Towns community for advice on how to run their schools anytime soon.

    And if the authors of the article were smart they wouldn’t try to give it.

    How’s about the FTJT do a drop of research as to which community is actually more successful in passing down their chinuch to the next generation?

    As for the “culture” of punishing those that come foraward.

    Lets be clear about this.

    Never ever has a single Satmar Chossid or member of the community justified anything that this man is alleged to have done.

    They have not and would not justify it. As the very thought of it is repulsive.

    Heres the catch.

    They say he did not do it.

    Other women who let their names out and stood up on the witness stand. Said we attended therepy with him.

    He did not do it.

    The secular press has admitted there this is a “He said, She said” case. There is no evidence he did it.

    Two people now say that others have come forward.

    For years he practiced.

    He was sent this girls older sisters.

    No word, no rumours, nothing.

    All of a sudden out of the wood work comes two people saying others all of a sudden found out they could come forward anonmously.

    Can the 5TJT staff please write an editorial explaining what the halachic sources are that allow them to believe this girl over him are?

    And to beleive her so firmly that they are able to write an editorial slandering an entire community?

    If they should chose to write such an editorial it will probably take them awhile cause tit does not exist.

    BTW it actually is a machlokes whether Yichud is a Drabonon or not and the Tzitz Eliezer says according to the Mechaber it’s a Drabunan.

    According to everyone Kabbolas Motzi Shem Rah is an Issur Doiraisa.

    in reply to: Chinuch #913910
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    SJ and WM

    Will try to, sorry.

    in reply to: Y.U. Abuse Scandal and Cover-Up #913527
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Zdad

    To state that there is anyone in Satmar that supports a criminal is not just wrong it is deliberate LH on an entire Kehilla.

    And By thw way the “hallmark” of Satmar is the amazing Chesed they do for every single Yid regardless of what their BEliefs are.

    Chesed that I myself was a reciepient of.

    What Satmar says is that this man is innocent and they are vehemently opposed to the accusser who they feel is guilty of deliberatley destroying someone life.

    To state that Satmar tolerates the types of things that is allegged to have occured is absurd.

    If a man is found to attmpt doing such a thing in Satmar he would quite literally be beaten within an inch of his life.

    You know that, I know that, The entire world knows that.

    One need no further proof of this then the simple fact that it is unwise for a single girl to be on the streets late at night in the heart of the most “liberal” tolerant communities, yet such problems don’t exist B”H in the heart of Meah Shearim.

    However in Satmar someone can not just scream abuse tell a convincing story several years after something allegedly happened and thereby completley ruin a mans life.

    They want proof and proof does not mean someone else saying “I know others but they are afraid to say anything.

    in reply to: Chinuch #913907
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    SL

    I am not refering to individuals.

    I am referring to policies.

    And I am also refferring to the entire concept of seeking and bringing in certain “professions” to our “camp.

    Since the wholesale adoption of certain philosophies and practioners of those philosophies has taken place are we better or worse off.

    Is the Sholom Bayis in our communities better or worse then Fifteen years ago?

    Is the Divorce Rate higher or lower?

    Are there more children at risk or less.

    When the original JO came out discussing certain topics and offering certain solutions there were Rabbonim and Gedolim who were vehement in their opposition.

    They stated it would make more problems it would create problems and families and children would suffer.

    They were told they were “out of touch” and they had to face reality.

    Some of them have passed on, others now keep quiet.

    But 15 years later why does’nt anyone ask.

    You promised if we do certain things then we would be better of, that our children would be better off.

    How come things are now 10 times worse.

    Don’t our children deserve that we at least ask the question?

    in reply to: Chinuch #913905
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Thank you to those who responed to my post.

    It was pointed out that we allow therapists with no training in their.

    Yes we do.

    That is exactly what a Mashgiach is.

    And our therapists have a track record.

    It has worked. It continues to work.

    I personally can point to countless of these “untrained Thearapists that I owe my life successes to. I know many friends that can as well.

    I personally have seen the wisdom that these “untrained” therapists use when dealing with their clients and the dedication that fills to a point where they have the ability to ignore the insult of someone who has no children, has never taught a lick telling a Father, a Grandfather and successful Mechanech of Decaeds “I know better, I’ll educate you”.

    Wisdom they have learnt from the Torah they have spent years studying and from their Rabbeim that learnt from their Rabbeim how to be “mechanech”.

    Yes they are untrained.

    But no one ever asks the trained one’s.

    Where are you coming from?

    What do you base your knowledge on?

    How come each and every place where they have have insititued “training” based on their “expertise” and “Studies” and wisdom the results have been disaster?

    No, we do not have to compare today to yesterday.

    But we can look today at what has happened to those who have decided to implement the “chinuch” strategies that come from those upon whom we are commanded “U’bchukosachem Lo Tseileichu”.

    We can look at the heartbreak, the devastation, the human tragedy that exists today in the pllaces that weree chosen as the guinea pigs of these “experts”and ask ourselves.

    Is that what we want for our children?

    in reply to: Please ignore "iced" #983027
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Its Ben Levi with an I not a Y

    An sorry but I sure ain’t Joseph.

    Sorry to dissapoint.

    in reply to: Double Standard in the Coffee Room #914512
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    As for where it states what I said.

    Meshes Peah.

    As for “knowing the Torah” to fullfill it.

    If you acknowledge that you must learn the Torah to know it then you acknowledge that without learning the Torah you do not know.

    Results?

    If someone who is not knowledgebale it Torah comes and states “these are Torah values” and another person who is knowledgable in Torah who actually sits and studies the Torah for much of the day, states that Torah values are not in line with what that person states it is logical to believe the Second person.

    As for the “statement” made by Hillel to the mechutzaf.

    Lets see.

    Facts are the Torah Shel Ba’al Peh and Torah Shebiksav are huge (Tanach, Shisha Sidrei Mishna, Shas, Midrashim ect…) so how do we understand Hillel’s statement?

    Is’nt Shammai’s statement more logical?

    Of course I am not the first to raise this question the meforshim on that statement raise this question and explain exactly what Hillel meant Loo it up.

    And thank you for providing a perfect example of why intensive Torah study with all commentaries is needed and one cannot really base their opinions on a few random unconnected statments that they heard here and there.

    in reply to: Feif Un was right #912927
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    GAW

    I am a proud Litvak and you most certainly don’t speak for me.

    in reply to: Shocking Study of Modern Orthodox OTD Rate #941620
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    It’s true that Project YES is hard to get through to, that is something I find a drop troubling since it is headed by Rabbi Yackov Horowitz who is considered by some to be extremley active in OTD.

    However there are numerous other orginazations that are dedicated towards OTD though they are much lower profile even though they do amazing things.

    In Flatbush There is Rabbi Wallerstiens yeshivos which includes an Middle Elementary school specifiacally designed for kids who are “falling” through the cracks.

    I don’t know much about the school know as I do not live in Brooklyn anymore, however when I was in Yeshiva I had a friend who’s father was a Rebbi their and part of his job wass that each time he gave a test he had to make up an individual test tailored towards each kid.

    I believe the elementary was called Bircas Shmuel and the Beis Medrash was Ohr Yitzchok.

    At the time I was in Yeshiva in Brooklyn it was a known thing that all the Wallerstiens work was done under the direction of Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l.

    There is also Our Place.

    There is also the one man “storm” of action named Rabbi Mitch Mitnick who has dedicated his life towards OTD kids.

    Then in Lakewood there is Rabbi Yitzchok Abadi and his Yeshiva dedicated towards helping these children.

    There is also Progect Extreme with Rabbi AY Weinberg.

    However I will state that from what I have seen personally the most help comes from individual Rabbeim who put their heart and souls into doing everything they can for their talmidim.

    I personally stand in awe of what I have seen many Rabbeim do to help their students.

    However I am aware of the fact that many Rabbeim are increasingly curtailing their activities in these fields since the danger they are subjecting themselves to is sadly growing day by day.

    All they need is one child with emotianal problems or one distraught parent to accuse them of something and theyre entire lives and families lives can be destroyed.

    B”H Klal Yisroel still has Men and Women who are willing to risk it , however the risk grows and sadly many are deciding the risks are to great.

    And yes, I most definetly am deeply afraid of what will happen in the future.

    in reply to: Double Standard in the Coffee Room #914502
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I wonder why there are some people who feel that they can define Torah Judaisim as somethong other then what the Torah defines itself as and yet still be surprised when others make clear that their “feelings” are contrary to Torah.

    For example.

    The Torah states quite clearly “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.

    Talmud Torah (learning Torah) is equal to all other Mitzvos.

    Yet some people feel that they can disparage Torah and indicate there are other mitzvos greater then Torah Learning and still should be thought of as Torah Jews.

    in reply to: Throwing bleach at R' Nuchem Rosenberg to achieve justice? #912375
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Well since I would think that people realistically must realize that no chinuch system can have 100% success rather 85% to 90% is realistic.

    And we would equally realize that until say 15 years ago the Yeshiva system had a pretty impressive succes rate.

    The Yeshiva system rebuilt an entire culture that we were told after the War was gone forever.

    It turned out responsible Mothers and Fathers who could get married at a young age and stay married as well as raise children.

    Many terrible things that were rampant in PS were absent in Yeshivos (for the most part).

    Of course this began to change when “chinuch experts” pointed to the 10% of children that were unfortunatley falling through cracks and argued that that meant a wholesale change was need.

    We now had to use educational methods from “proven” “trained” experts that would solve the issue.

    Well sure they came to be.

    The experts had their way.

    But since the only place these “methods” and “proven” techniques had been implements were in PS, well believe it or not instead of solving an issue they made it ten times wors.

    So the same experts who claimed that the issue was a lack of “affection” from teachers a lack of “loving” every child (go back and read the JO on Kids at Risk and its follow up).

    were in a quandry.

    You see.

    They had their way.

    The old system has been discredited, and they had their ideas implemented.

    So why are things worse?

    Well it can’t be that they were wrong.

    It can’t be that Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbonim who were screaming NO! while they clucked and said “Ach them? they should stick to their Gemorah. they’re too old and out of touch, we’ll educate them”

    It can’t be those Rabbonim were right.

    No.

    It’s a new problem.

    Abuse!

    A child goes off they’ve been abused, a marriage breaks down? Abuse!

    We are not responsible for anything.

    Once agin we are the Paul Revere’s! We are are warning you listen to us and our 6 figure salaries and ten degrees.

    Ignore our results.

    Ignore the fact that each and every place our “warnings” have been implementd has wound up unrecognizable.

    If these “chinuch experts” want peace.

    Then tell them to back off.

    Tell them to get their hands off our schools and off our children.

    Tell them that our children are not their guinea pigs.

    Tell them they do not know better then the Torah.

    If they leave us alone then sure we’ll them alone in return.

    in reply to: Rebbes Affectionate with Children #1055887
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Morah Rach

    Sure things change but then again the Torah never promoted Men taking more then one wife as the “ideal” rather the ideal was always Adam and Chava a monogamous relationship. There are many sources for this ex. why were Rachel and Leah not buried together with Yackov in the Mearas HaMachpala.

    However the Torah on down through Chazal have promoted corporal punishment as an effective chinuch tool.

    Furthermore on a practical level we have seen that the more certain methods of chinuch are utilized and “old” methods of chinuch are thron out, the more blatant the collapse of chinuch becomes.

    Slowly as Public School methodologies are brought in to Yeshivos the results of PS are unfortunatley becoming rampant as well.

    in reply to: Philosophical Qs�NO KFIRAH #944138
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    ReadyNow,

    Yisroel V’Oraisa V’Kudsha Brich Hu Chad Hu.

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Just to clarify.

    I purposley dis not use the term “lie” in talking about accusotory children.

    There is aconsiderable evidence to the fact that children below a certain age do not lie about things in the way adults understand lie rather their perception of reality is different then an adults and hence when they say over a story in many instances they do not think they are lieing in the conventional sense.

    I don’t think this is news to any parent of small children.

    This is one reason why it’s quite disingenous when “experts” qoute studies showing “children don’t lie”.

    Yes they do not lie in many cases, however they are not telling the truth as we understand it to be.

    Again most parents of small children understand what I am saying as it’s pretty much self understood.

    But then again most of the “experts” that are the originators of most of these “studies” had very few children of their own and even if they did they spent very little time with them to know many of the things that many Jewish Parents who grew up in families with numerous siblings, cousins ect.. take for granted.

    So they had to spend millions of dollars and make numerous mistakes trying to find out a little bit of what we know.

    Sort of like President Barack Obama telling a buisnessman how to turn a profit, with equal results.

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    In cases of abuse I wonder if anyone here has read up about the “pre-school” cases of the 80’s where in a whole bunch of cases men (and in some instances women) were convicted of child abuse.

    In all these cases eventually it was proven that the accused were innocent, in many cases they had already benn sitting in Jail for years.

    In fact the near total exoneration of virtually all the accussed and the open demonstration of numerous cases where children did not say the actual truth plaid a real role in the child abuse accusation being laid to rest for a lon. long time.

    Look the cases up some of them are pretty famous.

    As for Halacha.

    There is something called “kula d’loh posuk” in such cases Beis Din has the ability to require that a “suspect” no longer deal with a specific women or children ect… as a precaution even though they may not punish since they do not have enough evidence to warrant a punishment.

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Zdad,

    You happen to be right there are those that state that a “road trip” with an unmarried girl above the age of 12 is assur becuase of Yichud.

    Therefore they contend that it is prohibited for Boys and girls to go out on dates.

    in reply to: Rebbes Affectionate with Children #1055865
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    ZDad,

    Have you ever looked up the stats on abuse?

    I mean the real stats at the source, not the ones qouted in articles by “chinuch experts” and expert “phsycologists”.

    You see there is a small secret that for some reason is glossed over in many articles by people interested in protecting children.

    The actual term Child Abuse refers to many different things. It’s kind of an umbrella term.

    Obviously it includes Child Sexual Abuse, Physical Child Abuse, as well as Abuse through Neglect.

    Now when these statistics are qouted for some reason this little fact is left out.

    Furthermore what’s left out is if you will go to any CPS breakdown on child abuse you will see that the most prevalent form of Child Abuse by far, and by far i mean by far, is Abuse through Neglect.

    Those are the facts, plain and simple.

    Child Sexual Abuse does’nt even compare to the amount of children that suffer from Neglect.

    Now the most effective “cure” for neglect is a Caring Teacher who is dedicated to the child, sees the child each and every day, spends time with the child, and is invested with the child.

    A teacher is the one who most simply can at least in some way provide the emotional support and warmth that the Parents cannot or will not provide in all too many cases.

    Why won’t the parents provide it?

    Well in some cases there are SB issues consuming them, in some cases they are physically exhausted from working themselves to the bone to provide for their children, in some cases they emotionally cannot for whatever reason.

    Whatever the case may be all to often the parents are not providing it and the kids suffer.

    Now you are right.

    Many Rabbeim now-a-days will not show the physical affection for their talmidim they once did becuase they are afraid for their own families in the case of a nutty parent or child.

    For some reason a Rebbe could have spent decades being underpaid and overworked dedicating his life towards other peoples children and literally putting his life and soul into them.

    But unfortunatley it’s not enough for people to even give them the slightest benefit of doubt when 1,2,3 parents or children out of hundreds literally will accuse them and they know every hug they gave a crying child will be held against them.

    So, yes a lot of Rabbeim stopped it.

    And yes more and more children go off.

    And for some reason no one stops to think for second.

    Hey, 25 years ago were there that many children going off the Derech left and right?

    Were there that many Children with real social isssues?

    Were there this many problems?

    Why now?

    And as we get more “enlightened” there are more problems.

    Anyone remember the famous JO about KIds-at-Risk?

    Has it got better or worse since then.

    Oh.

    Wait a second.

    The same “experts” telling us know how to treat our Rabbeim.

    How to treat our kids.

    What real “child raising” is.

    Are the exact same people that laid down the policies for Americas glorious Public School system.

    And yep slowly but surely our schools are looking exactly like Americas Glorious Public School system.

    Funny the coincedence.

    A bunch of people that have literally destroyed the American Moral Fabric, The American Social Fabric, the concept of families in America, and the Public School system in America are now on equal par with Rabbonim and Talmidei Chachomim when it comes to how to be mechanech our children.

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