Forum Replies Created
Furthermore of course the founding of the State was inextricably linked to Socialism.
The founding of the State was the main thrust of the Haskala movement which was inextricably linked to Socialism.
And of course the Gedolim did not object to Socialism per se.
They were busy fighting a war to rebuild Torah in the State that was being waged on virtually every front. The moral justice of the kibbutz was not exactly on the front burner.
You are 100% correct about Israel being a socialist country.
In fact Bibi’s claim to fame and the reason for his enduring popularity is the fact that he is one of the first Prime Ministers, perhaps the first, of the State who actually has an understanding of economics.
For most of the States history the Prime Minister was exclusively a security expert with no real economic experience unlike the MIT trained Bibi
As a result Bibi is actually credited with finally destroying many of the socialist components of the State and unshackling the Israeli economy.
Please pay attention to what I actually write,
I do not expect a non-jew who is not bound by the Torah, does not study the Torah, and does not live by the Torah to live a life personified by the Torah.
However let us say we have a promising young athlete who has begun basketball training. He can dribble, he can run he can play defense.
However his shooting is terrible he is consistently short.
So the suggestion is made by a young man to lower the basket, we will change the rules of the game so that from now on his shot is on the money and he can become the great basketball player he is capable of being.
One coach hears the suggestion and begins to laugh
Sonny, he says. You can’t just change the rules of the game. The game is not limited to this one field and this one league. It’s international. The only thing you will ever accomplish by changing the rules for this one bad offensive player is ensuring that no player who plays in this league will ever be able to really become good, because he will have no idea what the real rules are.
The example is crude but the point is sound.
Trump is morally bad so are most politicians.
But there is one party now that is advocating to change the rules of the game.
There is one party that is advocating to change our perception of morality.
There is one party that is advocating against what is accepted as right and just.
They are openly advocating to change the moral fabric of the country.
That is the Democrat party.
To vote for them to state that what they advocate for does not offend me.
I fail to see your point.
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole..
The socialist political movement includes a set of political philosophies that originated in the revolutionary movements of the mid-to-late 18th century and out of concern for the social problems that were associated with capitalism. By the late 19th century, after the work of Karl Marx and his collaborator Friedrich Engels, socialism had come to signify opposition to capitalism and advocacy for a post-capitalist system based on some form of social ownership of the means of production. By the 1920s, communism and social democracy had become the two dominant political tendencies within the international socialist movement, with socialism itself becoming the most influential secular movement of the 20th century. While the emergence of the Soviet Union as the world’s first nominally socialist state led to socialism’s widespread association with the Soviet economic model, some economists and intellectuals argued that in practice the model functioned as a form of state capitalism or a non-planned administrative or command economy. Socialist parties and ideas remain a political force with varying degrees of power and influence on all continents, heading national governments in many countries around the world. Today, many socialists have also adopted the causes of other social movements such as environmentalism, feminism and progressivism.
To state that the most licentious president since Kennedy is Trump when Clinton is a recent memory and with the full knowledge of what is going on with Bill Clinton right now is a new level of denial of reality.
To focus on the personal individual lifestyle of Trump affects the comparable to the very real legislative agenda of the modern day democratic party is further evidence of willful blindness to what is going on.
You have a very unique view of Socialism.
Because debating whether I have a right to the fruit of someone else’s labor is inherently implying that they do not intrinsically own the fruits of their labor.
I agree 100%
If an officer arrests an individual do not resist arrest.
If you do not do so 99% of the time any violence will be avoided.
If you do resist arrest the likelihood of violence goes up dramatically.
Since the person being arrested is creating a violent situation with an armed individual there is a great likelihood that person will come to physical harm.
This harm could have been avoided simply by not initiating violence.
I fail to see where I stated the Torah supports capitalism.
I did state that socialism is predicated on beliefs that anti fundamentals of Judaisim.
I fail to see how you disprove that.
Regarding Hilchos Aniyim.
First off the halochos of Hilchos Aniyim simply establish a obligation upon me to help out poor people it (probably) does not establish an ability for an individual poor person to demand from an individual support.
I do admit that this is subject to a dispute over whether it is mumon aniyim or not.
You are correct in respect that there is a moral obligation that derives from G-d but that does not ascribe itself to a a secular government,
Furthermore that obligation is predicated on my affording it.
Pray tell how does that translate into property taxes for school bills when I cannot afford tuition.
Secondly the Halochos of Charity establish many thing in direct contradiction to the secular ethics.
Again that is because the din of Hilchos Aniyim a requirement on me personally to help poor people no to give money to a third party which then does with it as they see fit.
If I have a job opening and a poor relative is capable of filling it I there is good Halachic grounds stating I am obligated to give to him.
And that obligation is for food and clothing how does that translate in Sesame Street on PBS?
Purposely taking President Trump out of context to try and attack him.
Socialism teach one that they the society i.e the government owes them certain tangible things i.e housing or healthcare.
These are not free they cost money and they require the services of others.
In other words if you are poor and I am wealthy you basic rights are that I am obligated to give you a portion of my work and you have the right to it.
( in other words your basic rights are the ability to steal from me)
As opposed to the founding philosophy which stated that my inherent rights are God given and the government cannot infringe upon them but the government is likewise not obligated to grant you them.
In actuality a central part of the philosophy of the founding of the United states was that basic rights were “inalienable”
The government could not infringe upon them because they were GOD given, and hence if they made rules against your inalienable rights they were inherently unjust.
Flowing from that is the concept of Capitalism, that it is not my skin color or creed that decides my success it is the “capitol” that I have and as long as I invest it the way I see fit the profits or losses belong to me.
You do not have a right to my work nor do I have a claim on yours.
The above PSA was brought to you free of charge.
Are you honestly suggesting that if someone attacks Police Officer he should respond with a “fist fight”?
I have a better one.
Do not attack men armed with guns.
It may be hazardous to your health.
Regardless of skin color.
if the cities were capable then they should do it.
As for whats going on in Portland.
Are you asking me to be a news service?
Psychologically speaking there’s a basic reason why socialists giver less charity the capitalists.
the basic philosophy of socialism is ingraining in someone their “rights” and everyone else’s obligations towards them.
So it’s really hard for them to feel personally “obligated towards giving of themselves towards others.
While capitalism teaches you the obligations you have.
So when you see someone in need you cannot push your obligation on others.
As for “jewish Values”
A bsic Jewish Value is that Jealousy is one of the things that remove you from this world.
Yes some people have more.
Deal with it.
Yes some people are smarter.
Deal with it.
Another basic Jewish value is that stealing is wrong.
You are not entitled to other peoples money.
No matter how much they have.
The “problem” is that we do not live in Utopia.
We live in the real world with real issues.
The world is comprised of human beings who are complicated each with their own set of issues.
Communisim/Socialismrefuses to recognize that.
I do not think that it takes learning from example to understand it’s unwise to send infected people back into old age homes.
It takes a modicum of common sense.
Nothing is bothering me.
Why do you ask?
I am also curious why do you state Florida & Texas while leaving out California?
New York had the most deaths by far.
I really hope that Texas & Florida does not learn from NY (Unless it’s what not to do)
Actually a prominent Rosh Yeshiva zt”l who grew up in Europe and saw the destruction socialism wreaked explained to me the following.
In Europe the level of :poorness” was something we could not understand people literally had barely enough to eat and had to work unbelievable hard for what they did have.
Communism/socialism came along and promised them from now on they would have what to eat and would no longer have to work so hard. Life would be good.
So he explained there was a tremendous Yetzer Horah,
Now in America when he explained we all have “breakfast like a king” and the Yetzer Horah of Socialism is much less.
What is sad to me is to think that we have become so spoiled from the wealth that the Capitalist system has created raising the American standard of living to untold heights that we have forgotten what suffering Communism/Socialism brings.
Again I fail to understand you.
a) No I am not a “conservative” to the core.
I am what Rabbi Gifter zt”l termed a Torah Jew.
My values are informed and shaped by the Torah which is timeless.
My morality is informed and shaped by the Torah which is timeless.
I understand that I am far from perfect or the ideal. That is the point of life. The struggle between the Yetzer Horah & the Yetzer Tov.
However I define what is moral based upon the teachings of the Torah.
I define what is right based upon the teachings of the Torah.
And as a member of the Jewish People who have been persecuted for millennia I look towards which political party is more safe for my people.
As such I currently identify with the Republican party. They are more in line with my values then the Democrats by a long shot & they are more safe for the Jewish people.
Actually they could
President Trump has offered Federal assistance more then once and the Mayors of Chicago, Atlanta, Portland, & New York have all turned it down in favor of continuing the vandalism.
Are you ignoring reality?
There is unrest now because democrat Mayors and politicians are actively stopping the police from enforcing the law.
Look if you want to criticize Trump do it.
When you devolve into stupid attacks with no basis in reality it becomes really immature.
Actually the reason I identify with Conservatives are many.
a) America has been a haven for the Jewish People because of the concept of “freedom” even though we were hated for most of the history of the USA, very little could actually be done against us on a legal level because the bedrock principle of the USA was that i have freedom to do what I wand as long as it does not affect you.
This principle is non-existent in Liberal circles.
b) I view it as a Chilul Hashem to vote for a party that is in open war on the concept of G-D
c) The modern day liberal democrat party has become home to open anti-semites and refuses to even attempt to condemn them.
d) the modern liberal democrat party has a history of failure and is for implementing policies with a proven history of failure.
So you are going back over half a century?
Here are Facts
In 2015 nenebers if the Senate Armed Services commitee urged Obama to grant lethal assitance to the Ukraine so they could defend themselves from Russia.
Trump did not.
Trump requested 17 billions dollars for the EDI (Europes defense initiative to protect them from Russia) with 17 billion dollars as opposed to Obama asking for 5 billion.
Infamously Obama responded to Assad, Russia’s client) crossing his own red line by gassing his own people with nothing.
Trump sent missiles.
But Trump is the Russian flunkie because CTLawyers daughter worked etc…
I am curious
Bid Chavez or Maduro state that he was trained in carrying out atrocities?
Perhaps Fidel Castro?
Are you trying to make sense?
Lets be clear why CT Lawyers taxes have increased.
Because Trump passed a Tax Bill that someone could only deduct a certain percentage of State Taxes from their Federal taxes.
He did this in order to lower taxes for the rest of Americans.
So taxes were raised on a small percentage of wealthy individuals and lowered on the rest of the USA.
And Libs are against it.
He has lost money by running for office and that is why he won’s show his taxes.
But somehow he is enriching himself through private office.
He supplied lethal weapons to the Ukraine, to aid them in their fight against Russia, something Obama refused to do.
Yet he is Russia’s stooge.
The Liberal Governor of New York forced nursing homes to accept sick patients during the height of COVID possibly killing up to 6000 individuals.
But Trump has “killed thousands”.
His daughter is a Jewish convert one of his closest advisors is an Orthodox Jew and happens to be his son-in-law.
But Trump is an anti-semite.
The Cities of New York, Chicago, Minneapolis are being turned into shooting gallery’s.
But Trump Does not care about “Black Lives”
And the Libs claims to be logical?
And Yes I am aware of marxism.
It is a theology that gave birth to some of the most terrible atrocities to have ever taken place.
I do not at all feel that President Trump gives a “pass” to racist speech.
I actually listened to the Mt. Rushmore speech where he quoted Martin Luther King and celebrated Black achievements.
I paid attention the State of the Union where again he made a point of celebrating Black heroes in this country.
I paid attention to him actually passing sentencing reform bills specifically aimed at mitigating the damage done by Biden to the Black community.
I have paid attention to his record that includes actual outreach to the Black community in ways never attempted by a Republican President.
And yes I am aware that the Liberal media is terrified by that. Because if he is actually successful in showing that the Democrats have produced nothing but misery for the Black community and it is the Republicans who are attempting to fix it up.
The democrats will lose a significant portion of their voting base.
So they must start a race war.
So let me get this straight.
That President Trump states Freedom of Speech regarding the Confederate Flag, alarms you.
That the founders of the BLM movement refer to themselves as trained Marxists does not.
Lenin’s Bolshevik government initially shared power with the Left Socialist Revolutionaries, elected soviets, and a multi-party Constituent Assembly, although by 1918 it had centralised power in the new Communist Party. Lenin’s administration redistributed land among the peasantry and nationalised banks and large-scale industry. It withdrew from the First World War by signing a treaty conceding territory to the Central Powers, and promoted world revolution through the Communist International. Opponents were suppressed in the Red Terror, a violent campaign administered by the state security services; tens of thousands were killed or interned in concentration camps. His administration defeated right and left-wing anti-Bolshevik armies in the Russian Civil War from 1917 to 1922 and oversaw the Polish–Soviet War of 1919–1921. Responding to wartime devastation, famine, and popular uprisings, in 1921 Lenin encouraged economic growth through the market-oriented New Economic Policy. Several non-Russian nations had secured independence from the Russian Empire after 1917, but three were re-united into the new Soviet Union in 1922. His health failing, Lenin died in Gorki, with Joseph Stalin succeeding him as the pre-eminent figure in the Soviet government.
By early 1918, many cities in western Russia faced famine as a result of chronic food shortages. Lenin blamed this on the kulaks, or wealthier peasants, who allegedly hoarded the grain that they had produced to increase its financial value. In May 1918, he issued a requisitioning order that established armed detachments to confiscate grain from kulaks for distribution in the cities, and in June called for the formation of Committees of Poor Peasants to aid in requisitioning. This policy resulted in vast social disorder and violence, as armed detachments often clashed with peasant groups, helping to set the stage for the civil war. A prominent example of Lenin’s views was his August 1918 telegram to the Bolsheviks of Penza, which called upon them to suppress a peasant insurrection by publicly hanging at least 100 “known kulaks, rich men, [and] bloodsuckers”.
Requisitioning disincentivised peasants from producing more grain than they could personally consume, and thus production slumped. A booming black market supplemented the official state-sanctioned economy, and Lenin called on speculators, black marketeers and looters to be shot. Both the Socialist Revolutionaries and Left Socialist Revolutionaries condemned the armed appropriations of grain at the Fifth All-Russian Congress of Soviets in July 1918. Realising that the Committees of the Poor Peasants were also persecuting peasants who were not kulaks and thus contributing to anti-government feeling among the peasantry, in December 1918 Lenin abolished them.
Lenin repeatedly emphasised the need for terror and violence in overthrowing the old order and ensuring the success of the revolution. Speaking to the All-Russian Central Executive Committee of the Soviets in November 1917, he declared that “the state is an institution built up for the sake of exercising violence. Previously, this violence was exercised by a handful of moneybags over the entire people; now we want … to organise violence in the interests of the people.” He strongly opposed suggestions to abolish capital punishment. Fearing anti-Bolshevik forces would overthrow his administration, in December 1917 Lenin ordered the establishment of the Emergency Commission for Combating Counter-Revolution and Sabotage, or Cheka, a political police force led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
Google Stalin’s works the first result results is for an archive of his works preserved by Marxists.
Glad I could educate you.
“Lenin caused a lot of trouble. But never even thought of political genocide.”
The figures of victims of Leninism, from November 1917 to January 1924
More than a million people murdered for political or religious reasons.
Between 300,000 and 500,000 Cossacks killed.
Hundreds of thousands of workers and peasants killed for striking.
240,000 killed in the suppression of the Tambov rebellion.
More than 50,000 white prisoners of war executed.
Between 3.9 million and 7.75 million deaths from famines among Russians, Kazakhs and Tatars’
in the summer of 1917 Lenin wrote a book, “The State and Revolution”
In the book, in addition, he already advanced with absolute frankness and before coming to power that violence would use it “both to crush the resistance of the exploiters and to direct the enormous mass of the population, the peasants, the petty bourgeoisie, to the semi-proletarians, in the work of “starting up” the socialist economy.” Years later, one of the closest collaborators of the communist dictator, Leon Trotsky, would write Lenin’s words to those who were reluctant to use terrorism: “Do you really believe that we can be victorious without using the most ruthless terror?”
Again glad I could educate you.
I assume that you state that you fullfill the chiyuv of Anim Mamin which codifies the obligation of each Jews to long for Moshiach?
I appreciate you stating “There is so much wrong in these comments”
Perhaps you can be specific?
Just top clarify what the “mainstream media” will not tell you about BLM
The following info is readily available from many sources,
“As Black Lives Matter activism continues to spread throughout the country—with demonstrators calling for the defunding of police departments and radical overhauls to significant portions of the United States—a video resurfaced this week in which one of the founders of the black activism group affirmed that she and her co-founder are “trained Marxists” who are well-versed in “ideological theories.”
Though it is ostensibly a group dedicated primarily to fighting and ending racism and police brutality in the United States, Black Lives Matter itself deals heavily in language and rhetoric steeped in left-wing ideology. The group states on its website that it is dedicated to “issues concerning racial injustice, police brutality, criminal justice reform, Black immigration, economic injustice, LGBTQIA+ and human rights, environmental injustice, access to healthcare, access to quality education, and voting rights and suppression.”
Those progressive fixations do not appear to be accidental. In a video interview from 2015, one of the group’s founders admitted that she and her fellow co-founder are dedicated to the ideology of Karl Marx, the father of “scientific socialism” and foundational figure of the international communist movement.
Patrisse Cullors, who founded the group with Alicia Garza and Opal Tometi in 2013, was interviewed by Morgan State University Professor Jared Ball in 2015 regarding the movement she helped to create. Ball in that interview asked Cullors about “critiques” of her group, ones that allege “a lack of perhaps ideological direction in Black Lives Matter that would allow it to be, to fizzle out.”
Responding to that question, Cullors said that the group “do[es] have an ideological frame.”
“Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories,” she said, adding that the group’s founders sought to “build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk.”
I am not referring to any “parve” statements.
I am referring to the stated goals of the founders and leaders of the BLM movement.
They have openly stated they are Marxist.
They have openly stated that they have studied the works of Marx,Lenin, & Stalin
3 of the most prolific mass -murders in History.
Men who murdered 10’s of millions and plunged millions more into poverty.
After 9/11 the inquiry stated that “they were at War with us but we were not at war with them”.
A good part of the reason is becuase even though they openly stated their goals. The West refused to beleive them.
I suggest we learn from History.
If they state they are Marxist. If they Have studied Marxism. Then how about we believe them?
As a Jew I would like to state openly and clearly I am fully comfortable with all that is written in the Torah.
And yes I realize that modern day “morality” is in conflict with portions of it.
That is why my version of reality is influenced more by Pirkei Avos then the NYT ethicist.
And I am fully aware that that means I find some of the “morals’ of the Liberal Left to be very immoral.
Your post does not seem to reflect a strong sense of history.
Can you elaborate on what you mean?
Regarding the President.
I wonder what would happen in Russia if respected media organs such as CNN of the NY TIMES tied writing about Putin the way they do PRes. Trump?
How about Iran or China?
You are being disingenuos.
I realize that you hate the President but the legal matters surrounding Mary’s book are complex.
And the tv shows interviewing a member of a family that is itching to get back at the whole family for perceived wrongs are making fools themselves.
Most decent sized families in America have one of those.
A person flying a swastika disgusts me personally.
But again flying a swastika is an expression of that persons freedom of speech.
If I were to take away that persons right because it offend me. And not just me but the majority of the USA (hopefully) then what is to be when wish to celebrate publicly my children learning Chumash?
As a minority we are simply foolish if we do not realize that suppressing and freedom of minority’s is only putting us in danger.
It is mind boggling to me how completely devoid of historical knowledge Liberal Jews seem to be.
the Jewish people have thousands of years of experience in exile. We have been kicked out of one country after another.
for the last couple of hundred years we have been fortunate enough to find refuge and prosperity in this “Medinah shel Chesed”
It was named that by our grandparents who lived through the horrors of the countries that we were in previously.
Do you think they came to a country that loved them?
That was free of Anti-Antisemitism?
If you know anything about the history of the United States you know that the History of the United States is replete with Anti Antisemitism at every level. Look up a synopsis of the video Gentlemens Agreement.
Yet still they moved here.
Still they prospered here.
Still we thrived here.
Because even though we were hated by many.
Even though Anti-Antisemitism was rife.
The founding bedrock of the United States was one thing.
You can have beliefs I believe are abhorrent,
You can hate me.
But as long as I don’t act on them.
As long as I do not try and force them on you .
You have Freedom.
Freedom to worship as you wish.
Freedom to talk as you wish.
Freedom to dress as you wish.
Freedom to live where you wish.
The second those freedoms are compromised.
We are all in danger.
We are a minute minority.
Do you really think that Liberals will stand up and defend our right to teach Chumash the way we wish?
Do you really think they do not find ideas in the Torah to be contrary to their belief system?
Do you really think the heads of the BLM movement who have expressed their intent to destroy the nuclear family to respect out family way of life?
The only thing that differentiates the USA from most of the Arab world where a Jew cannot live.
From England of old which banned Jews from living there.
From Spain, Portugal, & the rest which kicked out all who did not convert is simply Freedom.
And as Jews we should know that.
I fail to see why in the world someone who want control on borders and an orderly immigration process is against “immigration”.
No they are not.
Just as Trump who is actually married to an immigrant who speaks with a heavy accent cannot be “against” immigrants.
However being pro-immigrants does not mean having no border.
(And by the way I never referred to America as “my” country)