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Whats real life?
What type of company?
A person who takes money to learn and goofs off is just as much a robber as an employee who goofs off.
Pay checks are for working, so if he goofs off, he’s a gazlan.
Kollel checks are s’char battalah, so it’s not gezeilah to goof off – he’s batteling!
Gavra’s right though that it’s bad for everyone else. It’s obviously wrong either way, but probably not technically gezel.
DY: In E”Y they certainly are.
Is that in answer to the thread title?
P.S. Ittisa reads the imamother threads, and from what she tells me, 2k a month for 5 years is considered normal even for below average guys who aleady plan on leaving after that time.
Tell her not to believe everything she reads on the internet.
If I win, I’ll ask popa for advice on how to set up my accounts.
I probably won’t win though, because
1) the odds are like one in ten gazillion
2) Ya gotta be in it to win it
BTW, kein yirbu, but I don’t think long term learners are a huge percentage of the frum population.
I have quite a few family members in Kollel, they are not in it for a year or to. They are in it for the long haul
How many, and how many family members not in long term kollel?
I haven’t heard of anyone being asked to leave kollel.
I have. I’m talking about well paying kollelim, not BMG.
Just FYI, from my own block alone and around the corner, there are sons on law who are already in kollel more than 5 years, a couple more than 10
How many, out of how many married kids? More importantly, are they for the most part b’nei Torah or fakers?
Why does it have to be monetary value?
Why do you assume that most kollel men are doing what you call “serious learning”?
I think many are in kollel for just a year or two. They feel it’s important to start marriage that way to set the tone for a home where Torah is central, but aren’t in it long term. These are the ones who are often (not always) less dedicated and learn fewer hours.
The other thread (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/being-in-kollel-but-not-a-ben-torah) is probably the place to discuss whether this is worthwhile. I think it is.
I’ve heard of it, but most of those guys aren’t in kollel for very long.
I agree that that is a casualty of our success.
As far as accountability, it depends on the kollel. Any decently paying kollel has some accountability – not necessarily what you suggest, but the rosh kollel knows who is being productive and who isn’t, and the ones who aren’t don’t last very long.
How long is the average kollel stay?
You think it’s okay for grad students because you see the value in what they are doing. If you would see the value in what kollel men are doing, you would probably think it’s okay as well.
So you’re saying that the system was designed so that lazy boys can get married?
I said I would be a psychiatry. She asked me why, and I said ’cause you people are crazy.
DY – Aderaba, Feivel (as you put it) is exactly my point.
Aderaba, feivel is describing b’nei Torah, your thread is about non b’nei Torah.
I’m baffled why you ask me to differentiate between EITC and EBT when I said they are the same to me.
I don’t think he’s referring to anything you said, just a sense he gets in general. See here, for example:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/bring-back-shame
Squeak, according to your stated reasoning, would he not be equally jealous of someone who inherited wealth or won the lottery? Yet, I don’t think anyone would sayvit smells bad.
I think you’re omitting a factor, that he’s receiving government assistance.
The system has been set up that boys end up in kollel if they want to get a good shidduch
Define “good shidduch”.
Interesting how you linked to feivel’s post, which brings up a point which hasn’t been brought up yet but should be: not call kollel men are cut from the same cloth. When discussing these issues, it needs to be clear about whom we are talking – the less serious, short term learners, or more serious l, longer term learners. Those two factors are heavily correlated, especially inasmuch as it’s not the norm (though it exists) that someone who is not being productive sticks it out for many years.
Hence, feivel describes wonderfully dedicated kollel men with large families, which means they’re long term learners.
The less serious, dedicated ones don’t usually stay until they have large families.
Why is the shver’s money running out an illustration that he’s not serious? Most kollel men leave to go to work when financial needs dictate.
Very little, unless you like to pass by churches and listen in.
They probably never thought of it.
The CR in a nutshell.
GAW, that is a very good question. It’s a good thing you don’t learn torah, or you’d think you don’t need to put on pants in the morning.
Do you know gavra? Maybe he doesn’t.
However, the secular authorities may execute murderers even on circumstantial evidence
But these are Jews, who have no right to act secular.
According to Faranak Margolese (“Off the Derech”) the main cause is negative experiences with religious figures.
I won’t say there’s no truth to that, but coming from OTD people, how much is it actually the cause rather than a justification?
I think we agree.
AFAIK, the only music which is actually assur (aside from inappropriate lyrics) is avodah zarah music.
Fair enough.
I still don’t know which situation you are referring to which is not illegal and assur, yet “smells bad”.
I thought Zochreini Na was from Dov Shurin.
Was the second half of your post directed at me? I don’t think I’ve ever made the case that a tune is tamei based purely on who composed it.
Nitpick: hasra’ah is warning. Assumption would be chazakah.
I am still confused. If the contract says the owner can’t be a relative, then presumably unless there’s been an oversight, if the owner is a relative, they won’t give you the benefit. If you manage to sneak it by them, it’s illegal (I’m not a lawyer, but can’t imagine taking program money on false pretenses isn’t theft) and gezel.
So what situation are we talking about that is not assur and illegal but “smells bad”? I’m not disagreeing with the concept, but what is the application here?
I also don’t know why you, ZD, apply this only to kollel people. Everyone should be honest.
They get dirty too quickly.
Switch yeshivos.
Sorry, I should have been clearer – I’m not disagreeing with your point, just saying that it has affected different communities differently.
If it brings one to an improper frame of mind.
Perhaps also on a supernatural level. Rav Moshe says about a tune which was originally used for avodah zarah that although not technically assur to listen to (with no words, in a secular context), it is nevertheless “m’chuar” – disgusting. That might also be true for music originally set to inappropriate lyrics.
Is it the tune itself that contains the “Tumah”, or is it the singer?
It could be either, both, or perhaps neither.
In some respects, the Internet has had more of an impact on yeshivish, chareidi and chassidish kids. Prior to the Internet, and with no TV in the house, it was much easier to limit access to materials deemed inappropriate. Even with filters, they now have access to those materials ( modern kids already had access books etc )
In other respects, it’s had more impact on modern homes, where access is much freer. See the article I referenced above by Rabbi Dr. Berman.
Until the 1800’s virtually all Jews were frum. By the end of the 1800’s most of Western European Jews and a large and growing number of Eastern European Jews were OTD. If I’m not mistaken, there was no Internet then
Why, how old is Al Gore?
Really, though, different generations have different nisyonos.
Yes.
Even using that definition, did he not intend his music for a wider audience?
On topic, we once had a non Jewish worker in the house who liked Regesh, and even went to a Judaics store to buy a CD.
ZD, I think you’ve gone off topic.
Yes.
I don’t think internet causes OTD, I think being unhappy and in pain, usually having been traumatized (specifically, abused), causes OTD. I agree that those who are suffering escape to places which are harmful, and that can be the nail in the coffin, so to speak, but the primary cause is pain.
This might not be the case in more permissive homes where internet is allowed, and children exposed to the idea that all types of ideologies are equal ch”v. This has been proposed by Rabbi Dr. Berman.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sunglasses-assur/page/2#post-580900
What’s with all the random bumping today?
True.
Thanks! How did you know?