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Sam, then I guess I won’t have to bring bodyguards.
One of the main Taanos on early Chassidim that many thought messed with Ikkarei Emunah was Aveirah Lishmah.
How about the role of the rebbe?
He’s showing that just because there were legitimate attacks by legitimate Gedolei Torah on early Chassidus doesn’t change how Chassidus is accepted today. He’s implying that the same logic should be applied in the “MO” thread.
What’s the difference between early MO and current MO?
If I ever meet you
Hmmm… When’s this year’s SOY seforim sale?
DaMoshe, Sam, I’ve never heard it from anyone normal. You can always find crazies.
The M”B quotes “HagRaz” all the time, and I often hear Litvishe R”Y quoting Chassidishe seforim.
I suppose those Litvaks you’re referring to make their own wine and grape juice.
DaMoshe
Member
Why would someone want to learn VaYoel Moshe? According to the Gra, chassidus is apikorsis! Why would I want to read the works of someone the Gra described as an apikores?
POSTED 35 MINUTES AGO #
DaasYochid
a singular mind
Why do you keep on erroneously insisting that the Gra’s objection to early Chassidim would hold true for later Chassidim?
POSTED 22 MINUTES AGO # EDIT
DaMoshe
Member
DaasYochid: Don’t chassidim claim they are following in the derech of the Besht?
POSTED 20 MINUTES AGO #
I don’t know that they admit to any of your claims.
What I do know is that today, even the staunchest Litvaks do not claim that Chassidim are apikorsim.
I’m taking it back to the other thread.
Why do you keep on erroneously insisting that the Gra’s objection to early Chassidim would hold true for later Chassidim?
DaMoshe, that made no sense.
No, I knew what it referred to, but the first statement says D’veykus is inherently better, and the second says Torah is, but isn’t practical.
I repeated multiple times that according to the greatest Torah sages that Zionism is A”Z.
Yet, not once have you explained why we don’t treat shomrei Torah umitzvos who believe in it as ovdei A”Z.
Early chassidim
Yes, the Gaon’s vehement objection was to early chassidus, not to how it evolved.
No, they taught that the ultimate way of connecting to Hashem is through D’veykus.
is a contradiction to:
They said that Torah learning wasn’t giving people the D’veykus they needed, so they should not do it
Sam, perhaps considering the matzav, bein hazmanim should have been cut short. It’s happened before.
Ubiquitin, I am aware that the issur of tumah could be a bias, but I have come to my position having considered that. If the balance of positives vs. negatives (even absent tumah) of any of the other m’komos you’ve mentioned were the same, I would take the same position regarding those. I don’t believe (or am at least unaware of the case being that) the balance is the same.
Flatbusher, not every rosh hayeshiva or chassidishe rebbe’s son becomes a rosh hayeshiva or rebbe.
Sam, are you claiming that R’ Moshe’s teshuvah was based on misinformation?
So you tell me being that DY did not answer
Nonsense. I don’t need to answer every case you throw at me; I laid out a very clear way of figuring out when to lay blame and when not to.
Avraham also had Yitzchak, who had Yaakov, and they were the ones who are Avos, not Yishmael and Eisav.
How does it differ from, say, Christianity
Huh? What on earth?
The correlation between the zman starting and the attacks abating is nice, but doesn’t “prove” that Torah protects us.
That Chaza”l say it protects us is what proves it.
Ubiquitin, it’s time to stop misrepresenting what I’m saying.
Avi Gordon, I’m not following. It’s okay for someone to follow his rabbi and incite the arabs, causing Jews to die, because rabbis make mistakes?
the 1929 Chebron massacre victims were yeshiva bochurim, who weren’t Zionists.
So?
Nor was there a state of Israel to “blame” for the Zionism
So? The push to make a state was already being made, angering the Arabs.
to assert that the State of Israel’s existence is the cause of Jewish bloodshed (I guess he’s a navi),
The Satmar Rebbe zt”l asserted that, and chacham adif minavi.
Yes, RebYidd23, especially when telling them to be kind to people.
Of course! Why, do you think popa would lie to us?
So if you would only have the common sense to realize that provoking and inciting our enemies unnecessarily is wrong, we could be in agreement.
Yes
So of course charge them less, but still, how much?
The schar from other mitzvos don’t?
How much do people charge their married kids to come for a Shabbos?
Cross-contamination.
Didn’t the Satmar Rebbe zt”l also say that there’s no point in relaying his shittah to Zionists?
Do you have a sefer Torah?
You are coming dangerously close to circular reasoning.
Well, sure, if you skip the part about weighing the positives against the negatives (which, agav, is how anything in life is decided).
Also, you avoided answering my question.
No, walking on Har Habayis is incorrect, aside from tumah (despite the false information some have given here), gufa because it incites the enemy, and there’s not sufficient benefit to justify that.
Please see my response to DY above (assuming it gets posted).
But, no, just because their wine is not ruled yayin nesech does not change the reality that the gedolim held that Zionism is A”Z
If they held it is A”Z, why does it not follow, without even asking your LOR (who surely isn’t as great as the gedolim you quote), that their wine is assur?
Why is it not clear to you, since you have stated that’s it’s a basic tenet?
I don’t understand – would you also ask your LOR if you could drink wine touched by a buddhist and say it was an excellent question?
I charge all of my kids rent. Most don’t have good jobs – for example, the two year old – but it’s all written down, and when they do get jobs, I’ll give them the bill.
For one thing, they insulate themselves from the secular world and culture more than traditional Orthodoxy does.
They also focus more on ruchniyus in ways other than learning, such as tefillah and nigun, with a focus on simcha and d’veykus, more than traditional Orthodoxy does.
They survived the haskalah much better than traditional Orthodox Jews did.
If you’re asking, you’re apparently not understanding “my shittah”, as spelled out here in numerous posts.
then why wasn’t it corrected once it was realized that there were errors in the transmission
When the gemara says to switch the names, the gemara is essentially correcting it, but we get to see the process by which it happened, which is also part of Torah.
No
Again, ubiquitin, I think you’re exaggerating my view, because presented accurately my view is completely sensible.
Saying they “take the blame” implies that they’re 100% responsible and that the terrorists are not. That’s far from true, and not what I’m saying.
Yes, the CH people were stupid for inciting Muslims, but that doesn’t absolve the terrorists one iota.
If someone walked through a high crime area at night wearing flashy jewelry at night and is mugged, is the mugger not responsible? Of course he is, but the victim, with his/her stupidity, takes some blame as well.
As far as your coworker is concerned, sometimes people are wrong simply because they’re wrong. If I told you the sky was pink with yellow polka dots, would I be correct because from my perspective it is?
BTW, I haven’t noticed you answer my question:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/har-habayis-revisited/page/4#post-583911
Should I be angry at someone for something he didn’t want to do? Is there a lesson not to do it again or that nobody else should do it? You’re making blame pointless when it isn’t.
No, blame is a wholly inappropriate term when someone does the correct thing.
Ubiquitin, think through the benefits vs. losses. You said yourself that your cases are impossible.
technically it could be anywhere, so art least we can throw out the kotel…that’s waaay too close.
See the teshuvah from R’ Moshe referred to above, where he says that in theory, there are parts of HH”B which are muttar, but we don’t know where they are (partially based on a machlokes Rishonim), and that would include the Kosel (because perhaps it’s an interior wall), except that we have a mesorah that the Kosel is muttar.