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Rabbiofberlin, I am touched by your concern for my (undeserved) kavod, and impressed by your your standing up for what you see as kavod haTorah.
I must point out, though, that I’m absolutely certain that popa’s comment was meant to be completely harmless.
First of all, b”H popa and I have a mutual respect which allows us to tease each other a bit without any bad feelings. Second, in context, when I just finished saying how someone who works can still be considered a “yoshev beis hamidrash”, I think it’s fair to say that he actually meant it as a compliment, layered in humor.
I must express my thanks for you, though, for coming to my defense, especially since we’ve had our share of disagreements.
Purim
Thank you.
(Would you let your son eat in my house?)
So let’s go a step further. Maybe it’s saying that it’s about the attitude the whole time.
The Ro”sh (Brachos 11b) says that it is sufficient to say Birchas HaTorah once a day even for someone who works, because he rushes to finish his work, and is mentally involved in his learning the whole time.
Surely such a person, although a “balabos”, would qualify as a “yoshev bais hamidrash”.
I see on the other thread you don’t appreciate that the editorial board here (what we call “the mods”) won’t allow external links.
That one I do understand, actually. They do allow hebrewbooks.org, though, for discussions in learning.
A tip: you can give a hint, and we can google.
The way you posted, is it surprising that your memory is fuzzy?
42,
Tehillim 55:2 “V’al tisalam”.
None whatsoever. Not at all.
??? ???? ???? ??? ????’ ???? ????, ??????, ??? ???? ???, ??? ??? ??? ???, ??????? ????? ????, ??? ???, ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???
Torah613’s comment about drinking.
No, of course I didn’t type the whole thing up.
Rosenjcb must be talking about this:
But it was the father who didn’t trust the bad influence, not the yeshiva which didn’t trust the kashrus.
Popa, is this what you’re talking about?
???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????: “????? ???? ??? ???? ?????” (????? ???? ?, ??). ???, ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????, ????? ??? ????? ???????, ??? ?????? ?? ?????. ???, ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? “??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????” (????? ??, ?), ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????, ???? ?????’ ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????: “?????? ?? ?? ????” (???? ?, ?), ?????, ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? “?? ??? ???” ???’. ??? ???? ???? ??? ????’ ???? ????, ??????, ??? ???? ???, ??? ??? ??? ???, ??????? ????? ????, ??? ???, ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????.
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They could have offered that alternative, but chose to be antagonistic instead.
Had there not been a need for a p’tur from the army (which is no place for a Jewish boy), I think the situation in EY would be much as it is today in Lakewood, where eventually, the vast majority do find employment, and as the economic situation demands, that includes secular education (although usually vocationally oriented, and undertaken well after marriage).
For political gain (and that’s being generous), Lapid decided to force charedim into the army. If he wanted them to join the work force, he could have exempted them from military service.
There was also a bill to ban discrimination against charedim in the work force, which didn’t pass. I think that says a lot.
while there were certainly people who got very, very drunk, the overall Mehalach while they were young was nothing like it is in Yeshivos today.
So now we’re not arguing over whether it’s a legitimate mehalach, or halacha l’maaseh, but rather, who, and in what situations, it should be done.
I definitely agree that it’s not for everyone or every situation, and I hope you’ll agree that it is for some people in some situations.
Gavra, that’s why I said, “in theory”. Some held like you (and I, I guess), such as R’ Chaim Shmuelevitz. I suppose those who disagree hold that the “hamon am” cannot be expressive of hakaras hatov while at the same time holding that they shouldn’t be doing what we’re having hakaras hatov for.
BTW, I do plan be”H to be in Manhattan on Sunday.
Sam, I don’t know where you get your information from, but the minhag in yeshivos was to get drunk.
TLIK, there are definitely those who use Purim as an excuse to do what they would like to do year round.
There are also those who have no desire to get drunk during the year but do so on Purim, for the mitzvah. The gedarim for the mitzvah are subject to machlokes, like much of halacha. Getting extremely drunk is one legitimate shittah, in fact, that of the Mechaber.
Anyone who deligitimizes that shittah “is creating halacha to fit his own desires”. How shameful.
Lulei d’mistafina that it’s ona’as devorim, I would say something much stronger about the second part of that post than what I will.
The reason the chachomim haven’t been moche against drinking on Purim is because it’s a mitzvah.
Nisht is correct. The term yeshivish, when describing a person, generally refers to a culture, rather than originating in Lithuania or any associated hashkafos.
The fact is, the S”A (I think it’s the S”A) says it best- echad hamarbeh ve’echad hamamit, rak sheyechavein libo lashamayim-
It’s not the Mechaber, who holds to drink a lot, it’s the R’ma, who seems to be legitimizing both shittos (which is why Sam’s chiddush in the p’tur in hezek is wrong, IMO)
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14166&st=&pgnum=323
Hence it is a chumrah.
It is a chumrah in Hilchos Purim, but a kulah in Hilchos Deios.
So I guess it is new.
Anyhow, if there is a snow den, achosid will be angry if it isn’t shoveled. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/list-the-houses-who-dont-shovel-here#post-512180
Okay, tell that to Lapid who wants to criminalize the choice to sit and learn.
What DaMoshe advocates was beginning to happen (at least the part about chareidim who aren’t learning joining nachal chareidi – I’m not sure about the rules being enforced better) until the new draft law was brought up.
This has little to do with DaMoshe’s first point about chareidim from EY theoretically coming here and continuing to stay out of the workforce.
Ah, that would explain why I got a series of invitations to LinkedIn from a relative of mine (with whom I don’t have a business relationship) and he says he didn’t send them.
?
Anyhow, I didn’t bring up the working/learning/army issue to rehash the argument about who’s right (see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dont-stop-arguing#post-512676), rather to assert that the situation might change if the same people who are now in yeshiva would be given an opportunity to work.
No, but I saw it.
Ever heard of Ben Gurion’s talmidei chachomim?
DaMoshe, the chareidim in the US work. The reason many in EY don’t is because they need the p’tur from the army.
It’s far from a sure thing that they wouldn’t come here to try and find jobs.
Don’t worry, popa, we can say ??? ??.
You can probably have your email account filter them out. Gmail created a category called “Social”, and I hardly ever look there (I am antisocial).)
jbaldy: Maybe it can be. I don’t think so, though.
Maybe it’s not for you, that’s fine, but jbaldy is correct that for many it is.
To quote a Rebbe of mine, “If you’re drunk enough that everyone sees your Pnimius, you’re not going to remember any of it anyway.”
That is simply not true.
Check out Hilchos Megillah 2:15 while you’re at it.
getting drunk on purim can be an extremely spiritually uplifting experience. if you dont feel that way then you obviously arent doing it right.
And therefore, the OP feels that since he can’t do it right, nobody should do it.
Gavra, I believe that feeling hakaras hatov is pretty much universal in theory. The issue is how to express it, and whether doing so, publicly, clouds the hashkafic differences.
It’s also much easier (from that perspective, not just yours) from here in chu”l.
Koldmamadaka, same disclaimer as to Sam; too little time to give the full answer you deserve, but briefly:
The requirements for army service has two pitfalls. 1) It takes away the prime years a bochur needs to develop as a ben Torah. 2) The Israeli military is run by people who believe in kochi v’otzem yodi, and soldiers are put in very compromising situations regarding giluy arayos (this is more what I had in mind by spiritual danger).
I haven’t directly addressed the fact that klal Yisroel needs the zchus of limud haTorah, especially in such a matzav where we’re surrounded by enemies, because, as Ben Levi put it, if you don’t agree, then we “have reached an ideological impasse”.
Financial support isn’t what this is about, though. This atzeres would never have been called had the choice to stay in the beis medrash rather than serve not been labelled criminal.
If it was there for years, it was a well kept secret. Classified information.
Good point, popa.
What if we get less drunk than a blazing skunk?
Sam,
Very little time for a proper response, but:
1) Often, bitulo zehu kiyumo
2) It’s not about kavana; I don’t know why Torah can’t be maigen when learned for any reason (except lekanter).
3) At what price – how many korbonos?
Fensterz, many Sefardim are hashkafically identical to many Ashkenazim. The OP has a son in BMG, and is looking in that direction for shidduchim. I don’t know why you bring up culture again when I already addressed it.
Popa, why would you need a car to get to to the restaurant which you’re already in?
Fensterz, the groups you mentioned are not only different in minhagim, they’re culturally and hashkafically different as well.
Popa, I thought you said something smart. Disregard.
Koldmamadaka, beautifully written post.
Not chatzuf, and not smart-alecky, but unfair, I believe.
There are two ways to approach the issue you address: logical, and emotional.
Regarding the former, it can be explained very well why chareidim feel that Torah learning should be chosen over army service, both from the perspective of the tremendous value of Torah, and from the perspective of the spiritual danger involved in military service in today’s reality.
If you argue emotionally about the fact that your son risks his life while others’ don’t, there is no way to counter that; it is true, and there is no way to convince you to be happy that you need to worry for his safety.
But the charedi approach is based in the former, reasoned approach, and your (and many others’) approach seems rooted in the faulty assumption that it’s based on not caring about your son’s safety, ch’v. That is why it’s an unfair argument.
I have stated that I feel strongly that everyone must feel hakaras hatov towards those who risk their lives to protect other Yidden. I should add, that I feel hakaras hatov towards the parents who send them, as well as sympathy for living with that “incessant dread”.
But that doesn’t mean I have to agree to the decision to send to the army, or make that decision for my son.
Let me again stress that I don’t either intend to be offensive. This is a very highly emotionally charged issue, and I in no way minimize the tremendous mesiras nefesh involved in sending a child to the army.
M, there’s a different thread for that:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-much-is-a-womans-torah-worth
I guess so.
Are they saying we can’t promote the happiness of bachelors?
That’s an interesting topic for discussion: does an organization serving the public have a right to limit who it serves. I think the answer is yes, but but it must be based on fair criteria.
A bikur cholim organization will often allocate funds towards local residents much sooner than to other patients requiring aid. They may even have specific types of expenses which they cover, but won’t cover other necessary expenses – not because they aren’t needed, just because limited resources force them to limit their operations. There are some specialty tzeddakos which discriminate in this way. I know of several; some examples are: an organization which covers cleaning help when parents are incapacitated, one which provides linen for needy chasanim and kallahs, one which pays for the jewelry, one which helps with gowns, etc.
As long as the Sefardim and Ashkenazim are considered to have, at least to some extent, different shidduchim pools, it’s fair for one to limit its activities to one or the other.
OTgeneration of the tzeddakos I mentioned would do such a thing, that would be wrong. If a hachansas kallah fund would only give to needy Ashkenazic kallos, or a bikur cholim would only cover expenses for Sefardic patients, my sensitivities would be offended, because for those needs, cultural differences are not a fair criterion.
The reason it’s changing shidduchim-wise, is because the cultural differences are becoming smaller with each subsequent generation, and I don’t think the difference in minhagim is enough of a factor itself to keep the shidduchim pools seperate.
Popa and DaMoshe are correct; the history of klal Yisroel in the times of the Megillah is irrelevant.
Look, I sympathize with you in your difficulties finding a shidduch for your daughter (I’m assuming). I think you’re being unfair to the shidduch organization(s), though. With limited resources, they’re going to focus on the demographics with which they will have the most success, and they obviously feel that they don’t have the resources to be successful with Sefardim.
There’s most definitely a perception that Ashkenazim have different cultural norms than Sefardim, although that will likely change over the next several generations.
As others have pointed out, you’re most likely to find success through a shadchan who knows your child and can suggest shidduchim based on his/her personality and level of frumkeit rather than a stereotype.
Hatzlocha, and may you soon post in the Mazel Tov! thread.
RF, the OP’s message does not come across as positive.
Forget about minhagim, Ashkenazim and Sefardim are often very different culturally. That does make it more difficult, although certainly not impossible,to make shidduchim between the two groups (and even their many subcategories).
Of course we all need to respect each other, and that probably includes not accusing each other, by implication, of racism.
Yeah, the insertion of a question mark is a bit interesting.
Maybe ????? ?????? better translates to “reduction of sins”.
Goq,