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Had the Rebbe wanted the world to believe he’s Moshiach, he would have said so in a very public way, with nothing to hide. The Rebbe stood for emes, not chas vesholom two faced deception.
Sorry, that doesn’t logically follow. He would have completely lost everyone had he gone public. It would not have been the “oifen hamiskabel/b’keilim d’tikkun”. You can’t learn a chamur from a kal.
And you did not answer why he didn’t publicly disclaim it.
These attacks on the Rebbes integrity
I didn’t attack his integrity. I don’t know that he ever denied he was moshiach, but perhaps he deflected as he felt necessary.
I don’t know your parents, and I never insinuated that they raised you to speak like that.
What, you think I was adopted?
You certainly seem to insinuate that chas vesholom the Rebbe was a devious, two faced, self aggrandizing person
There are other at least equally plausible explanations for the stiros. You might want to consider toning down the negativity.
Is it historically accurate to say that Lubavitch were the first in America to do a lot of kiruv
Yes.
and all the other groups were Johnny come lately’s who merely followed in Lubavitch’s way, and wouldn’t have gone where they did if not for Lubavitch?
That’s pure conjecture. The reason others didn’t do it as soon is because they didn’t feel they were ready.
I’ll note also that your response to me, insulting my parents, didn’t even make an attempt to dispute the very logical argument that the Rebbe caused his chassidim to believe that he was moshiach. I understand that you’re passionate, but you’re falling into the same trap as the meshichists allowing passion to overcome sensibility.
You should also note that I never challenged the Rebbe’s Torah knowledge, or accomplishments in spreading Yiddishkeit.
I never said that means it’s Halachically problematic to believe that he will rise from the meisim and become Moshiach.
I will rephrase what I wrote earlier – is it not halachically problematic to ignore/twist that Rambam?
What a disgusting piece of hyperbole. And bizayon to a true Tzaddik and Manhig of thousands.
Why don’t you say that to the meshichists who say the exact same thing?
Shame on the people who raised you to speak like that.
I’ll give you a chance to apologize for that before I comment on what that insult seems to say about you.
I heard it slightly differently, but it’s a similar statement.
Maybe your versions are more precise, but it’s pretty well known.
I challenged anyone to prove that these beliefs are “Halachically problematic” by giving a specific source in Shulchan Aruch.
No, you said Shulchan Aruch or Rambam, and the Rambam has already been quoted several times here, if I’m not mistaken by you as well.
He obviously did NOT ascribe, or claim to be Moshiach EVER.
The Brisker Rav, among others, disagrees with you.
“Can anyone, anyone, please quote the exact words (and source) of the Lubavitcher Rebbe saying he himself is Moshiach?”
Of course, he was smart enough not to say it explicitly. Yet, he managed to have (almost?) all of his chassidim convinced that he was, and perhaps made some disclaimers in private.
Haga atzm’cha; he knew they thought he’s moshiach (otherwise why the disclaimers) yet the same way we don’t find any explicit claims that he was moshiach (although Bosi L’gani is pretty close) we don’t either find any explicit public disclaimers.
One down.
Who’s next?Hmm?
I challenge you to prove based on a source that you can specify in Shulchan Aruch or Rambam why her beliefs are “Halachically problematic”.
You don’t think it’s halachically problematic to throw all known sources describing moshiach in the garbage based on a purely emotional need to believe your rebbe is moshiach?
If you dont have a Rav, how would you handle the following situation
I would ask a posek who wasn’t my rav.
Did you get the term tzaddik?
Sure, but nobody but the Rebbe and his chassidim considered him a tzaddik by that definition.
You Leviim are all alike.
Also “from what I’ve read so far the Lubavitch rebbes are the Moshe Rabbeinus of the dor because that’s what they said. Did I miss something here?”
Not to my knowledge, meaning I don’t know of another source that supports that, you obviously wouldn’t find it in gemara as it wasn’t applicable then, but I think any rational person who is looking for emes will count the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a reliable source.
That’s not at all rational. We accept people as gedolim because of the opinion of other gedolim, usually from the previous generation.
In this case, some considered the Lubavicher Rebbe to be a gadol, and some most definitely did not, but outside of Lubavich, I don’t think anyone considered him to be THE gadol hador.
We don’t accept someone’s greatness on their own say so. That’s silly.
If I told you that I see Eliyahu Hanavi every night, you would probably believe me – because, after all, would someone who has gilui Eliyahu lie to you?
I don’t think Daas yochid deserves to be attacked.
Thank you for that.
(BTW, I’m a man.)
I’ll put it this way, I’m young enough to be born after the Rebbes histalkus.
I hope what you seem to experience, focus on other things besides moshiach, is more prevalent than is my impression.
I’m puzzled by your use of the word “histalkus”. Why does it seem to me that even non meshichist Lubavichers can’t seem to directly acknowledge that the Rebbe passed away?
The normal term people use for this is “petirah”.
So many points to address… I’ll try to get to some of them.
Mitzvos are רצונו יתברך. I haven’t heard otherwise
I wouldn’t have expected you to, but the clear message I’ve gotten from the Lubavicher people I know is that their kavana when doing mitzvos is to please the Rebbe and bring Moshiach. Of course, if you would ask if it’s Hashem’s ratzon, the answer would be yes, but you seem to misunderstand my objection as being against moshiach, ch”v, buy it’s not; it’s against the unhealthy focus.
They are done to fulfill our obligation to care for another You, which hastens Moshiachs coming.
I don’t disagree with that per se; I disagree with the way the chinuch today is to do mitzvos for the Rebbe and for Moshiach. You’re supposed to do mitzvos for Hashem.
Have you understood from my posts that I believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?
No, you’re clearly trying to convey that you don’t (although according to the meshichists, you really do, but you won’t say it public because it’s not b’keilim d’tikkun/oifen hamiskabel).
OTOH, have I indicated that I don’t believe in Moshiach or think it shouldn’t be talked about, hoped for, prayed for?
Your are truly a fine specimen of a misnaged.
The term misnaged always meant someone who is against chsssidus. That, I’m not. Nor am I against Chabad Chassidus, only the modern perversion of it.
That anecdote doesn’t ring true.
Ah, but it is.
I attended many Chabad camps, and we had many different themes, not all based on Moshiach.
When was this? It wasn’t always this way.
is the innocence of a young girl who thinks that everyone else is like her so so terrible?
No, and that wasn’t at all the point.
On the contrary, we strengthen Yiddishkait all over the world, thereby hastening the coming of Moshiach.
Precisely. All those wonderful things you do should be for the sake of the mitzvah, not to hasten moshiach. Hopefully that will occur too.
I didn’t say he did, I clearly used the word argue, ie, for arguments sake.
You said “you can argue”. But you really can’t; it’s silly.
Finally, I’ll conclude with a Rambam:
וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו, או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו, לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבינו.The Rambam is referring to belief in Moshiach, not specifically belief that the Rebbe is moshiach.
ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה, ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה.
So far you can argue the Rebbe fulfilled.You’re kidding, right? The Rebbe forced all Yidden to follow the Torah? Could have fooled me.
He also wants us to fulfill the ultimate purpose of creation, Yemos Hamoshiach, when He will be revealed to all, and everyone will serve him, and all of Torah will be applicable.
That’s His job. Our job is to follow the Torah.
Of course the concept of Moshiach, and iur belief in his coming, is universal. The obsession with it isn’t.
My daughter was in camp, and met girls from a Chabad camp. They were discussing the camp themes for the summer. When my daughter told them what their theme was (I forgot what it was), the Chabad girls gave her a puzzled look and asked, “What does that have to do with Moshiach?”
So yes, we say Ani Ma’amin, and daven multiple times a day for Moshiach,band yearn for the day when umol’oh ha’aretz deoh es Hashem, but it’s not to the exclusion of everything else in Yiddishkeit the way it seems to be in Chabad.
If you think that level of obsession is universal, you need to see other Yidden more often.
Wow, someone made a screen name just for me. I’m honored.
🔫
@DaasYochid,
I’m sure you know that תכלית הבריאה is ימות המשיח??I know that the baal haTanya says it, but that doesn’t change the fact that our mission is to serve the Ribono Shel Olam, not to bring Moshiach, although that will certainly happen if we serve Him well enough.
But regardless of anyone’s personal views in light of the gimmel tammuz difficulties, this I think we can all agree on: the main thing is to do everything everything everything we can do to bring Moshiach!
If you mean all Lubavichers when you say, “we”, I have nothing to say…
If however you mean everyone, then no, we cannot agree that that’s the focus. Sure, we all daven and hope for Moshiach, but we do mitzvos and learn Torah not because it will bring Moshiach, but because that’s the ratzon and tzivui of Hashem.
Would anyone treat a Satmar this same way they are treating Chabad here
That is completely and utterly irelevant.
We are not questioning Chabad because they look different, or are classified as chassidim. This is not some sort of racism, so to speak. We are questioning their beliefs, and to some extent, actions, which are not at all shared by Satmar.
The Satmar Rov was not very fond of Chabad, and this was well before the messianism was so blatant.
The Satmar Rov was more of a rosh kehillah than a rebbe anyhow, and certainly never declared himself leader of the entire generation, so the issue I’d succession isn’t comparable either.
Please read the Rambam again, with an intellectually honest outlook, and you’ll see that the Rebbe wasn’t Chezkas Moshiach.
Of course. So why does such a high percentage of Chabad believe he is moshiach (with the prime disagreement being whether to be public about it – perhaps it’s not “Bkeilim dtikkun- in ways that are acceptable within this world”)?
I think if Chabad would place more of a focus on regular learning (the lack of which is lamented by many old time Lubavichers), they wouldn’t twist things to fit their emotional agenda.
And all it takes to qualify is sincere effort
So if I try, I’ll be moshiach?
I don’t know where you get these sheer and utter nonsensical statements from
Which statement are you referring to? Are you referring to my question (not statement) about erev YK?
There’s a video of him saying something which sounds like that; it is touted both by meshichists to prove he is moshiach, and by antis, to prove he was delusional.
I’m asking for CS’s take on it.
So in nun aleph, nun beis, when this Moshiach excitement was going on, along with the hints, every chossid, from what I hear, expected the Rebbe to reveal himself as Moshiach and lead all Yidden to eretz Yisrael.
Did he announce, on erev Yom Kippur in nun aleph, that moshiach had come and there’s no need to fast?
Hope that answers
Hope you realize that you deflected more than answered.
But go on.
It is therefore deeply troubling that R’ M.M. Schneersohn did not designate a successor.
He thought he was moshiach and didn’t need a succesor.
ואין מקרא יוצא מדי פשוטו
Can’t we just leave it at that?
However, we do have the old klal of the Rambam in sefer haMorah, that logic prevails over simple pshat.
Is there anything logical about saying that in every generation, there is a leader (or leaders) who essentially don’t have bechirah?
We’re the first generation of moshiach !
Do you think moshiach has arrived?
So basically, the Rebbe declared himself Moshiach from day one.
Again, I will try to give examples when I have a chance.
That would be helpful.
My feeling is that if anyone does not have sheilahs at least once a week, that is likely either because they don’t know enough to realize there is a sheilah, or they are extraordinarily well-versed in halacha, so they don’t need to ask.
One doesn’t need to be “extraordinarily” versed in halachah to not have shailos every week.
And each and every tzaddik has a piece of Moshe rabbeinus neshama just like us
Just like us? So this part is universal, not just tzadikim?
QUESTION: WHY IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE SHABSAI TZVI SAGA of the 1600s?
That’s what hopefully CS is getting to.
A tzaddik is someone who overcame his yetzer hats and never did a sin.
Chazal say there were three people who never did a sin.
Also, according to the way the Tanya is being quoted here, they don’t even have a yetzer hora.
Of course that is the pashut pshat in the pasuk. The Tanya is certainly not the simple and logic pshat.
So, I’m asking how he learns the פסוק.
Sechel Hayashar, I’m well aware of how stiros are answered. I don’t see how you are answering in way which fits the pasuk.
Essentially, you are reading it as follows:
(There are two types of tzadikim: those who don’t do aveiros, and those who do.) Of those tzadikim who do aveiros, none of them don’t do aveiros.
if they’re thinking ‘out of the the box” so isn’t that the same thing (or in other words “alike”)
What you’re saying it that there’s no such thing as out of the box; everyone thinks in a box, the only question is which one (and there are only two).
It’s the simple reading of the passuk, it has nothing to do with logic.
Perhaps that is how he will explain the above.. or its all relatively speaking.
אין צדיק means there isn’t a tzaddik (who doesn’t sin), not that a lower level tzaddik doesn’t sin.
I don’t. People have personal responsibility for their behavior.
Then why does a rov’s child going OTD r”l necessarily mean they don’t have expertise in chinuch, as you imply?
I have a question about your definition of tzaddik. How do you reconcile it with “אין צדיק בארץ אשר יעשה טוב ולא יחטא”?
And if they could not prevent such things from happening to their own, what precisely is their expertise to share with others?
Why do you assume that it’s within anyone’s power to prevent someone from making bad choices?