☕ DaasYochid ☕

Thanks for the affirmation of my beliefs as normative Judaism. I really needed it:)
Do you really believe that ChabadShluchas (for example) beliefs are truly outside the pale of Yiddishkait?

She seems very nice, and very sincere, and it pains me to say it, but yes.

I’ll note that you asked about her, not about MoshiachChat. Are their beliefs different from each other (disregarding style of presentation)?

Yes, if you can question the Rebbes integrity, I can question Rav Shachs as well.

If you think it’s wrong, then you can’t. If you think since they’re two different people, you can, then why did you say it was a double standard?

You have a double standard for how you apply the definition of double standard.

I sniff a double standard here.

Oh, do you? You mean the fact that you went ballistic when you thought I was questioning the Lubavicher Rebbe’s integrity, but have no problem questioning Rav Schach’s?

You have a good sense of smell then.

Lubavitchers don’t use their own OK-D hechsher?

It’s not an official Chabad hechsher, and no, Lubavichers don’t eat it.

MoshiachChat, I honestly didn’t read what you quoted. What are you trying to convince me, that he called himself a navi, moshiach, and infallible?

Let’s say you convince me that he called himself all of the above. My conclusion would be the rational one – that he was a megalomaniac.

You’re trying to convince us that the Rebbe was a cult leader, yet you want us to accept your beliefs as normative Judaism. It’s not very reasonable to think that we will.

I can accept Seichal Hayoshor’s approach as within normative Judaism. He feels the Rebbe was a great man, but didn’t claim all these things about himself. Sure, my mesorah about how to approach Moshiach, kiruv, learning, and other inyanim are different, but that doesn’t mean that I think his are outside of Judaism.

Your nonsense is, though, and it appears that your attempts (and ChabadShluchah’s) have backfired, and instead of convincing people to accept your approach as legitimate, have convinced people who weren’t sure that it’s not.

Daas Why is it nonsense? Stop calling me names and being an argument like a normal human being

Because the Rebbe passed away, and Moshiach hasn’t come.

The Rebbe said he was a navi, not me.

I wouldn’t expect the Rebbe to call you a navi

FTR, I didn’t call him a navi sheker, because I didn’t call him a navi.

The story with the Gaon is hogwash. I don’t know who said it or didn’t say it, but it’s not a credit to anyone who made it up or repeats it.

that entail a possible pikuach nefesh situation regardless of which course of action is chosen?

I’m not sure what that means. Can you give examples?

NP: I found that letter. In a nutshell, I think he is saying that an elokist (why does he spell it with a kuf – isn’t it chol?) is an apikores (but we need not be choshesh about a stam Lubavicher chossid that he is one), a meshichist is not an apikores, but the process arrived at to be a meshichist is so flawed that a meshichist’s judgement cannot be trusted in halachah.

“אמר רב נחמן אי מן חייא הוא כגון אנא שנאמר (ירמיהו ל, כא) והיה אדירו ממנו ומושלו מקרבו יצא אמר רב אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש אי מן מתיא הוא כגון דניאל איש חמודות”
(Basis for the possibility of Moshiach min Hameisim)

Rashi (both pshatim) and the Rambam (discussed earlier) don’t learn that way. Which rishon/rishonim would this be based on?

“וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל שנשמותיהם הם בחי’ ראש ומוח לגבי נשמות ההמון וע”ה וכן נפשות לגבי נפשות כי כל נפש כלולה מנפש רוח ונשמה מכל מקום שרש כל הנפש רוח ונשמה כולם מראש כל המדריגות עד סוף כל דרגין המלובש בגוף עמי הארץ וקל שבקלים נמשך ממוח העליון שהיא חכמה עילאה כביכול”

Did you notice the לשון רבים there?

I have no intention of arguing here agains his greatness but I do take issue with the blanket statement.

Perhaps for the same reason you don’t wish to argue this out, others don’t wish to either.

the rebbe CAN be moshiach. Its not definite that he is, but then theres no reason that he isnt. Moshiach can be from the dead so thats not an issue.

No, that’s not possible. The Rambam clearly says if he failed, it’s known that he’s not moshiach.

He failed. He’s not moshiach.

Most communities ‘elect’ their leader. But a rebbe cannot be elected. Its who he is.

How did the Rebbe become Rebbe?

Gluten isn’t a real thing. It’s just a myth invented by the same people who gave me this stupid brown garbage can.

Oh, I thought the brown garbage cans was in NYC. I didn’t know they was in the Five Towns too.

I meant for example that there people are makpid to daven b’zman but not b’kava and b’toch koved rosh. That someone thinks rolling out of his bed into shachris and mumbling words for a short period of time is davening. That there are people who think the reason they were put in this world is to do mitzvos to get in to heaven. That there are people who are overly judgemental and scorn people who are not scholars. Etc.

But how did you answer the taynas about halachic violations becoming acceptable?

That is not what I said.

So let’s accept for argument’s sake that that’s not what you meant. After all, it’s ridiculous.

So, what did you mean?

I must say, WinnieThePooh, your posts are from the most well reasoned and well written posts on the CR.

And, if someone by chance learns one, they have to spin it around eg. “we daven with more kavanah than everyone else because we eat first and miss zman hatefilla”, “we’re careful to not sleep in the Sukkah”, etc….

It is an incontrovertible fact that chassidus came to correct mistaken things which had worked their way to in to common Jewish practice, belief, and behavior

So now davening b’zman, not eating before davening, sleeping in the succah etc. are mistaken behaviors which chassidus came to fix???

Also, I think the main argument would be whether Moshiach can be from the meisim or not, I’m sure most wouldn’t say he was Chezkas Moshiach.

Do the meshichists think he is definitely moshiach but not “chezkas moshiach”? How does that work?

Also, I think the main argument would be whether Moshiach can be from the meisim or not, I’m sure most wouldn’t say he was Chezkas Moshiach.

It’s quite clear that he can’t be dead.

This wasn’t a possibility before gimmel Tammuz, otherwise his death wouldn’t have been such a shock. After gimmel Tammuz, three quarters of Chabad rewrote the Rambam.

Yes, this is halachically problematic.

Why is Lubavitch big into pictures of the Rebbe? Everywhere they place, usually huge, pictures of the Rebbe. I don’t see such a custom by any other frum group.

I don’t know if this was as rampant before gimmel Tammuz; if it was l, my theory is wrong, but I might guess it’s their way of keeping him “alive”.

I’ve never done this or observed anyone doing this

I’m glad, because it seems dangerously close to a”z.

Had the Rebbe wanted the world to believe he’s Moshiach

I just want to point out that I was not saying he was trying to get the world to believe it, I only said it about his chassidim.