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Source that tightness by arms is not allowed.
I was right. This WAS discussed last year. There was a thread that clocked almost 400 posts.
IIRC, I argued that the school (BYOBP) SHOULD close. There are plenty of schools in BP that could pick up the slack. So what if the Hashkafa is not exactly the same as what you want? We are all on the same team here!
Of course I could be wrong (as I don’t live near BP), and there may be no room in any of the other schools (including Chassidish schools). But I doubt it.
SJSinNYC:
If one has Nechasim, that one can pay back with them requires a source?
The better question is regarding lending without being able to pay back. I have a P’sak, I did not ask for the source. However…
It is Assur to take out a loan and not pay it back, and he is called a Rasha (Lov’e Rasha V’Lo Yeshalem).
Rambam Malve V’Loveh 1:4
? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???????, ???????? ??? ????? ??????, ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????, ?? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ??–??? ???, ????? “???? ???, ??? ????” (?????? ??,??). ????? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????.
As such, if you have no intent to use the money to earn more money, rather to lose it (or pay off other chovos) and not pay back the original loan, it seems that would be Assur.
I don’t think it would portray me as a tsniudik woman
Not that I disagree, but why not?
(I really don’t know the answer).
SJSinNYC:
She has Bitachon that she will be able to pay (she is not planning on not paying). That is enough for a yeshiva/sale. For a loan, you would be required to have means to pay back (I think).
Besides, she probably has assets that can be used to collect, if the school/creditors really needed to (C”V) do so.
And even if not, the school should still accept her children.
GAW: what do you mean by adding 10% more chairs 5x. that sounds interesting. how do you propose bringing that about?
It just means that incremental solutions are also good, even if they don’t “solve” the crisis, because it lessens the impact, which is also good.
how should I fund raise go and knock on peoples doors?
At least you are not saying “I can’t”, that is a powerful first step.
OK: We can 1: raise funds or 2: earn more or 3: spend less.
1: Raise funds: Organize an auction, sell raffle tickets. Sell cold water bottles in a traffic jam, or candy in the street. Bike-a-thon, swim-a-thon, run-athon. Get the students of the school involved! Explain why they should tell THEIR parents not to give to other tzedakos, and instead give to the school. And yes, you can knock on doors. (just a few ideas)
2: Earn more: Go back to school and become a nurse/OT/PT?stengrapher. Offer to babysit children when your husband is home (if you C”V don’t have one, then you are right to ask for communal funding, even though they might not be able to give it), or joint babysit your own children with others’. Sell on the internet (E-bay or other). Sell any silver/gold you may have in the house (they are at highs)(also just a few ideas).
3: Spend less: there is a website run by a frum woman called “pennyless parenting” (SJS has mentioned it). I have never been there (IIRC), but they probably have some ideas you can use. You can also cut back on meat expenses and buy more starches (just as a start).
Good luck.
The current economy is a factor, for sure. But even before the crisis, it was normal for only 40% of the parent body to pay full (from Yated Chinuch Roundtable), let alone the number of students.
Now of course, that is because tuition is way too high for anyone with a “normal” income + large family to pay. But you do choose to have a “normal” income (lets say high 5 figures) and choose to have a large family (Al Pi Halacha, no doubt).
There may be very good reasons for not paying in full, but it still does not solve (and even explains) the problem of the schools having no money.
And you are still refusing to make a very true statement in today’s economy, that Many full time hardworking people cannot afford to pay the full tuition. You’d rather blame them for all other “many’s” that you wrote in your previous comment, and MANY other times in the cr.
As I said, “but not close to all, and maybe not even Rov”.
Not true.
AZ:
I don’t have numbers on me, but do you think/know if there are more boys or girls going off/becoming less shomer mitzvos?
I can think of many older frum girls who need spouses (and not many girls who went off/less), but know many boys who would make good husbands, but they may not be “up to par” for the girls (for example, they may not be shomer negiyah, or may not daven with a minyan, or will not learn every day, or may not even keep shabbos).
Any stats there?
And I’m not disagreeing with the age gap. But the problem can also be solved incrementally, by (hypothetically) adding 10% more chairs 5 times, we have gotten 50% of the girls married.
says who:
I’m glad you are not upset.
I’m not judging anyone (I don’t think). I was the one who tried to explain why cleaning help may be needed by someone, even in dire straits.
I am tring to explain how Hashem gave us Bechira, and everyone has choices they need to make. In many scenarios with tuition (but not close to all, and maybe not even Rov), it is not by happenstance that one does not pay in full. Many times it is due to something more valuable on which the money is being spent. Many times it is due to the unwillingness to earn what is required. Many items fall in between, and you have to Cheshbon where your priorities are. To say “it can’t be done” is just not true, but to say “I choose not to do it because…” may be a good reason.
P.S. it was a minor edit.
Go be that fundraiser!
To paraphrase: Ask not what your school can do for you, ask what can you do for the school.
says who: I apologize, but I only said the truth and tried to open your mind. You can do with it whatever you feel is best; I would never not accept a child due to a parents choices.
EDITED
Rav Moshe specificly states in EH 4:62:1 that in a Makom that is Meyuchad for women, there is no problem of not being Tznius (thank you “Helpful” for pointing this out to me in the other thread).
Get a PHD and become a shrink.
Why else would someone go into psychology?
I’m not sure how a Shell can cover everthing required. Even if there are strings of shells, there will still be spots where the shells do not overlay and skin will show.
That must be the point of the OP.
(purposefully obtuse)
Feif Un:
That is why there are those of us who support Rabbi Bender’s Yeshiva liberally.
He deserves it, and he doesn’t reject children because of their “grouping”.
artchill
OK
Thank you for editing the post in the tuition thread.
G@W
The tuition is paid in order to BREAK THE CYCLE OF POVERTY.
Only in certain areas, not where it is expected that the child will never work anyway.
artchill:
How dare you suggest a child be rejected for a lack of money?
Where did I suggest this? I completely disagree and think everyone should be accepted to yeshiva regardless of their income. Children should not pay for the sins of parents (even if the parents spend their money incorrectly, they should still get their children in yeshiva).
However, eventually there will no money for the school. We will have to (and are in some locales) deal with it whaen the time comes.
I am only suggesting how one CAN avoid taking Tzedaka if they so desire. That has nothing to do with the Tzedaka being given or not.
That being said, even though I “pushed one of your buttons”, suggesting that my family will require tzedaka is completely out of line.
artchills post has since been edited
Ben Torah:
SJS amswered the second point. I will just add that it depends on your location (I would not send a child to public school in South Side, even if I was NOT Jewish), as well as the home. I would bet that most Klei Kodesh children would come out with strong Yiddishkeit, even if they went to public school (or the new “charter schools” that are popping up).
As far as the first, one of the parents should possibly be home so that they can homeschool, thereby not requiring tzedaka, instead of making a pittance and then requiring Tzedaka for babysitting & Yeshiva.
I am suggesting if both parents are working, the kids cannot be schooled at home (or even be at home unschooled).
Ben Torah:
Why are both parents working? Shouldn’t the mother be at home?
(Socratic)
Also going to public school does not preclude teaching poor children torah (as an afterschool program, for example)
Ben Torah:
Please quote the statement you are refering to, or at least mention the person you wish to answer. I am not sure if you are refering to me or someone else.
cantoresq
Good to see you in the CR.
So in response to your question- would you tell such a family to only eat bread and water even though they will save a lot of $ by doing so? Of course not.
Not me, Chazal:
Aseah Shabbatcha Chol V’Al Yitztarech L’Briyos.
Clearly as Torah Jews this will not, nor should it, interfere with parents right, if not obligation, to fulfill one of first mitzvos in the Torah of having children, as many times as possible.
Of course not.
However, Ezehu Chacham HaRoeh Es Hanolad.
And Kesubos 49B. (The community has the right to embarass anyone who does not support their children into supporting them).
Of course, as I posted above:
B”H, we are Rachmanim Benei Rachmanim and those with more are willing to support those with less. When they are not, those with less will have to find other methods of being Mechanech their children. (emphasis added)
GAW, it means that I can’t understand her position because I don’t have 8 kids.
Why not? One can not have eight children and pay full tuition?
Is it Assur or something else I didn’t know about?
I would like a source please.
“What can I say? I”H when you will have a large family, maybe you will understand. “
What does that mean?
On second thought, I don’t understand the question.
There is a halachic premise: Poel Yachol La’chazor B’Chatze Hayom. A worker can quit whenever they want. Of course, they will no longer get paid.
Since there are many possible “Rabbaiym” around in BMG or other kollelim, there is no problem of lost time to the employer.
is it right to strike
Much better question.
How about the Rabbayim offering to take over the school, so that they can get paid by whatever tuition comes in. If the admins aren’t willing, it is on their heads.
Like GM tried doing by giving the stock to the union.
Yes.
GAW, that website is really entertaining.
Ittisa asked me to point out that I don’t go myself onto that website.
I strongly disagree with the implication that someone who is poor should be kicked out of the city if he can’t afford tuition. Since when is it a midda of Yidden to throw people out of town if he is poor?? Even if there is cheaper places to live.
I agree with this statement. We don’t throw anyone out of the city.
However, the school is not Mechuyav to take anyone who does not pay the tuition they request from them.
B”H, we are Rachmanim Benei Rachmanim and those with more are willing to support those with less. When they are not, those with less will have to find other methods of being Mechanech their children.
Rav Moshe specificly states in EH 4:62:1 that in a Makom that is Meyuchad for women, there is no problem of not being Tznius (thank you “Helpful” for pointing this out to me in the other thread).
Ben Torah:
Interesting. My reading says that the issue Rav Moshe is worried about is Yichud, not Tznius. He specificly states that since it is a woman’s swimming pool there is no problem of tznius. His issue seems to be the Man’s issur and Yichud.
End story, ask your Rav. But this is not a source.
Clearly being untznius in front of a goy is 100% assur as it is “pritzus”. The only exception is a nochri lifeguard, since he is a life saver. See Igros Moshe EH 4:62:1.
Where does it say Nochri in the Teshuva?
It does not, BTW.
2: Rav Moshe says it is MUTAR not Assur. He says a Yaras Shomayim should not be there if/because she should be worried that the male lifeguard will follow the female home (which even Rav Moshe says is remote). He does not have a problem with the lifeguard per say.
Did you ever actually read the teshuva, or are you just quoting (like I have called out others (the same person?)).
Still looking for a source.
And what about just in general being able to afford the area. If you are living in a one bedroom with 5 people, clearly you can’t afford the neighborhood.
Disagree. There is nothing wrong with living poor, as long as you don’t attempt to “act rich” or take from others because of it, and your children don’t suffer because of it (granted that is difficult).
In the shtetel, we were all poor and lived in small homes much worse then someone in BP lives now.
Are you saying that if someone knows that along the road they will need cleaning help, and can’t afford it, and will need to take Tzedaka to do so, then they shouldn’t get married?
How about not needing the Tzedaka by at least attempting to earn enough (or marry someone who can) to pay for the cleaning help?
As if there aren’t many factors taken in to account when deciding where to live.
Of course there are. But where does paying for Talmud Torah rank?
GAW If I use the money for rent, How do I have extra money?
If you stay where you are yes. But if you move to Lakewood….
Which is a big reason why Lakewood is growing and other communities are shrinking.
So you are telling me to move to a cheaper place where I’ll be able to use the $220 for rent and I won’t need cleaning help and????
220 x 12 = 2640.
2640 / 4000 = 2/3 a lakewood tuition.
Dr. Pepper can check the numbers.
SJS:
On your “Jewish women’s website”, there was a discussion regarding husbands changing diapers. It is the same thought process.
And yes, there are some women who are incapable of having a home, should never have gotten married, but did so anyway. They do need the cleaning help. That is not to say they should get a tuition break, though.
I’m not planning on moving outside of my neighborhood.
So you CHOOSE not to leave your neighborhood, thereby CHOOSING not to pay full tuition.
I’m not saying that it is your fault, but it does explain why the schools have no money. You choose not to pay them when if you tried hard (or even somewhat) by moving, you might be able to do so (or at least more than you do now).
Of course you may have other reasons why staying where you are saves money, and then we can get back to my original point.
Baruch-1:
Bava Kamma 38a!
SJS:
I think you are making a mistake in judgement here.
YOU are capable of taking care of a home, working, taking care of children, and being there for your husband.
There are others who are just not as mentally capable as you are.
They are unable to hold a job AND take care of children, or buy food AND take care of the home. Their husbands are not any more capable, or are the type that are not Mevatel Torah to help in the home.
None the less, they got married and now have many children.
Post-fact, they need help.
says who:
Not at all. I would like you to think about why you have a “small” apartment. There is a point that circles back to tuition.
As a side point 220$ per month sounds like a large sum that would be able to get an rent upgrade anywhere outside Boro Park/Williamsburg/LES or LA. I know it would work where I live. I believe it would even work in Flatbush!
Do you choose to live in one of those areas (or another area where costs are similar)?
Anything by Rav Marcus Lehmann.
says who:
Let’s ask a silly question. Why do you live in such a “small” apartment?
gavra, I don’t see any contradictions. It isn’t saying its okay to prance around bare chested. But ipso facto if he already said kriyas shema like that, the shema was yotza.
I wish it would be that simple. The SA says Mutar Likros, meaning L’chatchila.
And it is clearly 100% assur for a woman to be untzniusdik in front of a goy or otherwise.
Source? And please don’t say shoshanas whatever that MR brought (or anything similar).
Not that I disagree. But I would like to see it inside a Real Sefer from a Posek.
Some ppl just dont have the money.
As I have posted before, relatives of mine have gotten calls from parents collecting for their own children’s minimum tuition requirements.
For failing schools, it is an idea.