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I think you are all being motzi a bit of laaz. They claim it is all made with their mouths.
You can say it sounds so much like music that you don’t like to listen to it, but you should not claim that it is really music.
Not all the Rabbonim – Tendler is pushing the Gov. to do more.
He said gedolim. But Tendler is not even a rabbonim–he is a gadol’s son in law. A gadol who is certainly rolling in his grave to see the mesirah that his son in law is involved in.
Shkoyach DY. Excellent. Very fine posting there on my part too.
The two largest Orthodox synagogues in my neighborhood in the Bronx recite full Hallel, with a blessing, on Yom HaAtzmaut.
I am surprised. I did not know that HIR recited any blessings. I assume not to Hashem though?
Sam: Can you find us that please? All I found is this http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/touro-or-yu
and I don’t see me saying that, although, the second post on this thread is golden.
The Hasmoneans did much worse aveirot than the worst leftist would dream of doing (like slaughtering the Chachamim).
Yeah, I think I’ve heard things roughly that bad being advocated by some leftists.
Then there is also the small issue of Ben-Hecht’s accusations which, if true, are exactly that.
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(HT: Mod 42)
We say tachanun with a bracha.
Yitz: That isn’t how the virus works. I’ll quote from above.
See, something like 90% of people are infected with this virus. But it goes dormant and is not contagious except when you have active sores.
I sometimes tayna azoi:
I think the gemara says somewhere (you tell me where) that we only have to listen to doctors about external illnesses, but that they don’t know anything about internal illnesses.
I contrast that to today, where we generally do think they know what they are talking about–except about dermatology. Everyone is modeh in dermatology they are totally clueless and cannot diagnose or understand or heal anything. So it is the opposite!!
The teretz is that we only know they can’t fix skin conditions because we can see that it isn’t fixed. If we could see inside, we’d know that inside they are even worse!
Nowadays, though, it’s not true that it’s a medical necessity.
You should say: It isn’t known to be a medical necessity. There are no “truths” in medicine, since doctors understand nothing. There is only what we currently think, and what we used to think. And one day, what we currently think will become what we used to think.
??”?
? J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
The father doing it is reasonable, and it does not take any training (contra truthsharer’s rav).
But it doesn’t totally solve the problem.
See, something like 90% of people are infected with this virus. But it goes dormant and is not contagious except when you have active sores. So the father is just as likely to have the open sores.
I suppose the benefit is that the father will be more careful about it.
Sam: We can disagree about that. It’s a curious question.
Do you think a mohel should ask parents if theyd like MBP done?
So we are discussing the mohel’s personal ethical responsibility then.
Depends. If the mohel holds it is required min hadin, he should obviously not ask. If the mohel holds it is not required, then maybe he should.
Mostly, the parents should just ask him when they hire him. Unless they are idiots. And if they are idiots, then I don’t care anyway.
Yup. And those who hold it is M’akev will not care what to government says, which is why we end up where we are. Two groups of Torah Yidden not understanding each other, and accusing each other of being betraying their religion and being unreasonable.
I only see one group doing the accusing and the other group doing the betraying. But yes, that is the correct diagnosis of the problem and its reason.
Believe me: My rebbeim have said for many years to use a tube. I wouldn’t do MBP for my kids (except for a time like now, when I would davka do it to show support, and davka without a consent form). I just support the right of those who think it is necessary.
The same way I support the right of Catholics to not violate their religion by providing contraceptives. (And I submitted comments to that effect to HHS, and not a form one either–I wrote mine myself.)
ubiquitous: I don’t agree with anything you said. I cannot make my position clearer, sorry. And I cannot answer your question because the two choices as phrased do not properly contrast each other. Your first choice was a personal decision, while your second choice was a societal decision.
Small and significantly limited is still too much in the view of many, myself (and many Gedolim) included.
That is not an intelligent view. You cannot simply say “any danger is too much”, as I very finely argued above ad nauseum.
And no gadol ever has objected on these grounds. The gedolim who say not to do it are the ones who hold it isn’t halacha anyway. No gadol is telling the poskim who hold it is halacha that they should be mevatel daas to them for this reason.
And no, the rasha tendler is not a gadol. Blast that, he’s not even ???? ?????. (Hmm, can you be a gadol but not b’chlal amisecha? Was Acher a gadol? How about Yochanan Kohein Gadol? Is Kohen Gadol the same as Gadol?)
GAW:
Really? You’re attempting to prove from that passuk what is halachically required for a bris?
Methinks you’re being a bit ridiculous.
ubiquitin:
If you must be so ubiquitous:
I am opposed to this law because of number 1. I think it was made in bad faith and out of a disrespect of religion.
I am opposed to this law because of number 2. Your response is inadequate, everyone with a brain knows the studies are junk science. See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/163444/Study-Casts-Doubt-On-Claims-That-Metzitzah-B%27Peh-Leads-to-Herpes-in-Infants.html
I am opposed to this law because of number 3. I think it is bad public policy to regulate religious rituals.
If it had been passed in good faith, then number 1 would fall. If it was passed with good science, then number 2 would fall. Number 3 would not fall unless it was a very extreme circumstance such as human sacrifice .
Sam,
It appears to be true. I don’t know any sources.
Afsher, so like Pba you are not really opposed to the city, you are just
It isn’t nice to misrepresent what people say, right after they tell you that you are misrepresenting it.
I find it ironic that you think this is the stupidest thing PBA has ever said.
I don’t think he went that far. I’ve said some pretty stupid things.
He said “stupid” in reference to the reducto ad absurdum argument he was making. I’m ok with that.
Sam: Ok, and many poskim hold this is halachically necessary. My rebbeim don’t, and yours don’t, but many do.
Also, I don’t know what you mean the “risks are necessary”. What makes something necessary? You would take less risk if you only showered every other day–is taking a shower daily necessary? Is it necessary to not do a sonogram every day?
Pba, so beetzem you agree with the city you are just afraid of where it will lead
No, b’etzem what I said above.
I do know that Rav Yaakov wanted to see the Moon landing on TV and see if the Rambam was correct or not about the moon being a phyiscal place.
Yeah, the moon landing was probably faked anyway.
ubiquitin:
I have no problem with making parents aware of the risk. I do have a few problems with the city though:
1. Their public statements show a pretty bad intent. They basically see bris milah in general as medieval and barbaric, and certainly MBP, and would like to ban at least MBP entirely. I think they view this as a step in the process.
2. They overstate the risk to parents, and they base their findings on junk science. If it is really that important, set up a real scientific study and figure it out. A study of 6 kids is known as “anecdotal evidence”.
3. I think it is a dangerous step to begin regulating religious rituals. I am quite scared of where this can go. I do not think we are far from seeing bris outlawed entirely.
(And as an aside, seat belts have been shown to NOT reduce injuries and deaths from driving. People who don’t wear seatbelts drive slower to make up for the risk, and people who wear seatbelts adjust their risk by driving faster.)
Morah:
Some poskim do hold it is necessary, and some don’t. I don’t know who exactly does and doesn’t but that doesn’t really matter to me. There are large communities, especially chassidim who hold it is necessary.
On a quick side. To basically say that it’s fine because not enough babies are dying to cause concern PBA, I do not believe you actually agree with what you said.
It is not nice to tell someone they don’t agree with that they said. And I do agree with it, and I am beyond surprised that you do not.
As noted, every activity in the world carries some risk of death. Many more people die from taking a shower (and falling) than from MBP. And people die from bris milah itself even without MBP. People die from driving cars, crossing streets, and riding bicycles.
People die because our NOx standards at factories are set where they are, and are not set lower. People die because we allow some amount of pollutants into the ocean.
People die because we don’t do an MRI to everyone who goes into a hospital. People die because we don’t do every blood test in the world every time you go to the doctor. Babies die because we don’t do a sonogram every day during pregnancy. Babies die because we don’t keep them in the hospital for observation for a month.
Life is about balancing risk against cost. Unless life has infinite value, there will always be things that are worth more than some chance of dying. Driving cars is worth more than some chance of dying, saving money is worth more than some chance of babies dying from not doing endless sonograms, and performing a bris properly according to halacha is worth more than some chance of babies dying from it.
Of course, at some point the chance is too big, and we do sonograms sometimes, we drive below certain speeds, we limit NOx emissions somewhat, we do MRI’s sometimes, and we don’t do a bris if 3 brothers died from it.
To state therefore that “any chance is too much” puts infinite value on life and cannot be true. It is not true.
Sam, sorry, I missed your response before.
As DY notes, that is obviously not the halacha since everything in the world has some safek of causing death–and in fact most everyday things have a much higher risk than does MBP. And more on point, bris milah itself can cause death in some situations and we only don’t do it when there is chazaka from the brothers that (I think) 3 already died from bris.
That’s a nice trick. Qualifying as a moser or rodef because they espouse an opinion that is different than yours.
lol
You really are clueless, aren’t you.
You are all crazy! You’re not even supposed to TOUCH the other guys car.
In my opinion, this goes by the local minhag. In NYC, the minhag is to bump, because people park so close to each other that you need to. In most other communities, it is highly frowned upon.
I assumed we were talking NYC
Probably.
I’ve gone there a few times in the past. I was off-put by his way of twisting facts, when I was familiar with the subject matter.
Any attempt to portray any ritual as “Primitive” “icky” or “weird” is completly out of place and detracts from the real issue
Well really, it just belies that there are other reasons–bigoted ones–for his opinion.
First of all, DovBear is the second-most vile anti-Jewish “Frum” blogger out there and should never be quoted. Ever.
I’m guessing your number one is the failed blogger?
Sam: You need to quantify what you mean by sakanas nefashos.
If everyone was dying, then yes it would be clear sakanas nefashos and we know that bris is not yehareig v’al yaavor.
But the percentage dying are a very small percentage. Do you really think it is higher than the percentage of babies who used to die from bris before they had antiobiotics to treat any infections that came up? And before they knew to sterilize equipment? (Not that I am modeh if it is a higher percentage–I’d still like to know what percentage you require.)
one doesn’t have to do it with his mouth
In your opinion, and in the opinion of most poskim.
I hope you’ll accord your coreligionists the respect that if their poskim do require it by mouth–that you will not criticize their following them.
Health: Thank you for the medical advice. I hope you will defer to the relevant poskim of the relevant communities as regards the psak.
I’m serious: You talk of educating “communities”. If you think your information is relevant, why not just address it to their poskim. Haga atzmecha: If your posek, after hearing your info, told you to do it–wouldn’t you do it? So why does the community need the info? Why would they listen to you at all?