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blinky – about 22 but she had been dating for a couple of years. Why?
My younger sister got married before me. It was extremely hard. But it never occurred to me that she should ask permission or mechila. She had her own life to live. Who wants the pressure and the responsibility on their heads that their sibling can not go out?
If the 2 siblings are very similar and any name that comes up is equally nogea for both, then I agree the older one should go out with him. But otherwise it’s crazy to wait, especially these days when shidduchim is so hard for girls. There are older single girls who are probably still single because they didn’t date during their prime dating age because they were waiting for an older sister.
aries2756, I’m not even talking about when it’s not best for the couple. I’m talking about the couple that wants it initially but are too stubborn to change direction when real life happens.
aries2756, I agree with your post except for the point anonymrs made.
The problem is that marriage today is a business deal. Before the couple even meet, the boy already has the promise that the girl and/or her parents will support for x amount of years. They don’t consider it something that is up for negotiations every so often. Both of them are not mature and realistic enough to realize that people change, circumstances change and no one knows in advance how they will handle pregnancy, being a working mom, etc. They don’t chap that they’re married to a person, not a laundry list, even if the person doesn’t keep their side of the “deal”. So even if the wife speaks to her husband about how hard it is, he’ll probably feel all bad for himself that his wife (who he only went out with in the first place cuz she promised to support) reneged on her promise.
I’m with yitayningwut and SJSinNYC. For every compelling proof there’s a compelling counterargument. We cannot rely on these so-called proofs alone. The kiruv orgs are doing a disservice by oversimplifying it like that. It makes things easier to say that those who aren’t satisfied by these proofs don’t want to believe, but that’s not intellectually honest.
SJS I actually do find the fact that antisemitism always existed and still exists today to be compelling, since it is not logical. Of course I wouldn’t call it proof in the sense of a mathematical proof.
happy girl, I don’t know the numbers, but the same thing happens to some girls too. In fact I would think it’s more likely to happen to a girl who is working out there in the non-Jewish world than her counterpart living in the yeshiva dorm.
Looks are extremely important in shidduchim.
I think what people mean when they say people are too picky about looks is that people decided beforehand that they need a certain type of look (example: blond, size 2) and won’t go out with people who don’t fit that look. A lot of boys would have no problem being attracted to a size 8 if they wouldn’t know beforehand what the size was. They also care about too much about what other people will say about their spouse’s looks. They not only want someone who they are attracted to, but they want everyone else to say they got an attractive spouse. Also, mothers of boys also want to love the way their daughter in law looks. It’s not enough for them that their son is attracted to the girl. So they have to check out the girl beforehand and there’s another reason why the shidduch might get nixed before it gets off the ground.
I don’t know…I live here in e”y and I see the seminary girls and I’m not particularly impressed. It seems like one long year of camp to me. With some studying, depending on the sem, but even that, while good, is not preparation for real life. Maybe for a very specific type of girl who is very attached to Mommy, it’s a good idea. The case you mentioned where someone got divorced is one case and extreme. I wouldn’t take an example from it. I’m not saying girls don’t gain and grow in seminary but not necessarily in ways that make them better wives or mothers. It’s very narrow to say that you wouldn’t consider a girl who didn’t go away for that reason. You could be rejecting a lot of good, independent girls. I went out of town for sem and I don’t feel it made a difference either way to my independence. So I learned how to do laundry. By the time I got married, I had forgotten already and it took me approx. 5 minutes to relearn.
I don’t know the percentage of girls who are are on a strict budget in seminary, but I don’t think most people have as little spending money as you described. There are ways to learn budgeting at home too. Parents can start very young with that if they want to.
One more thing: just because someone is homesick in sem doesn’t mean they will be homesick when they get married. It’s not the same type of situation.
havesomeseichel, you are majorly overgeneralizing. Independence has to do with a lot more than whether someone went away for a year. A lot of it is personality and how you were raised. I personally was always independent. B”h my parents raised me that way. I have also tried to be as financially independent as possible even when single.
As I heard a wise person say (actually I think it was a comment posted on this site or another one), who is more independent? A sem girl who’s living it up on her parents credit card for a year, shnorring shabbos meals from people, and calling home on her cell 2x a day, or a girl who’s going to sem at home while starting training for a career so her parents won’t have to support her as much when she gets married?
Traditionally, Jewish girls never went away from home for a year – this is not the criteria and should not be the criteria of who will be more capable of being a good wife and mother.
Bein hasdorim, I actually have heard the opposite. For example, it’s normal for a chassidish woman to walk around and even go out of the house in a turban and housecoat. While a lot of litvish women would never walk out of the house in a robe and snood and some of them not even in the house.
Also, I dont see why it’s more appropriate to joke about older singles than it is to joke about infertility or other misfortunes that people go through. You would not joke about it you knew the pain of these people who want to get married and have children but it’s just not happening. Part of the reason is that people think that the singles are more in control of their situation than the other cases, but many times that’s not true. I hope none of you jokers ever have to learn this from experience.
I hope you’re not serious, but either way, this is a typical condescending attitude that people have to older singles. I love how people who are happily married blame singles for not marrying the next guy that comes around. Believe me, if you went out with the people some of these girls are going out with, you would opt to remain single too.
Without going into the details, I had a few stories when I was single, where I was red someone who I had heard not such great things about, and then when I tried to inquire more, everyone tried to cover it up and backtrack what they said, or make me seem nuts for not ignoring what I heard. Maybe some singles are too picky, but most are not and you have to give them the respect they deserve from up on your comfortably married perch.
In any case, as AZ said, this method should prove once and for all whether or not there are more girls than boys. Or, instead of going through all the trouble, you can just believe the shadchanim who say that there are more girls than boys in their database.
To those who are seriously advocating polygamy (I don’t know if any of you are serious): I challenge you to find me 10 single women who would be willing to be someone’s second wife, even older singles. I challenge you to find me even 5 married women who are ok with their husband’s taking a second wife.
I don’t think anyone mentioned this, and I know this discussion isn’t fully serious, but no girl that I know would be willing to be someone’s second wife or let their husband take a second wife. There would be no special husband wife relationship as we know it today. Anyone who does this would have to be completely desperate and only be doing it so they won’t leave this world without children.
People complain that we’re influenced by Hollywood when we look for a spouse. This is the opposite extreme. Even people completely not influenced by hollywood wouldn’t be able to stomache this type of marriage.
smr, I don’t think you’re right about BJJ having a very yeshivish parent body. I get the impression that BJJ (and Bnos Sarah) have a much more diverse crowd than Hadar, and lots of the students don’t come from typical yeshivish backgrounds, as opposed to Hadar.
BJJ likes to accept girls from interesting backgrounds and places. They accept a percentage from all schools. So if someone applies from a very out of town place or from a more modern high school, they have a better chance of getting accepted than someone who applies from in town. From my grade in Lakewood, very few girls went to BJJ and lots of girls went to Hadar. This was a while ago, but it doesn’t sound like much has changed.
MaKesher, you answered your own question about how can someone just get up and leave. If my children have a 50% chance of being dropouts, then why would I take the chance? (I never heard that statistic before. I’m just quoting you. But I know that anglo kids have difficulties adjusting.)
In any case I’m glad it’s working out for you. Personally it’s just too much for me to live across the ocean from every single family member of mine and my husbands.
rwndk1, we live in e”y. Our kids are still young. There are a lot of advantages to living here, but since (among other reasons) we can’t see ourselves totally integrating into chareidi Israeli society, we don’t plan on staying here forever.
We ended up moving to a very chareidi place because of cheaper rent. It works for us now, but I don’t think I would have chosen to live here if I was looking for a place to live forever.
estherh, 2/3 of the points you mentioned are the boys being picky, and out of the 2 you mentioned for girls, I don’t believe the last one, because how many single boys write seforim? So why are people complaining that it’s the girls who are too picky? The boys are being much worse, just they get married anyway, so people blame the girls who are left.
Bein hasdorim,
kol hakavod that you are involved.
I can’t speak for anyone I don’t know, but when I was in shidduchim I was desperate to get married. I had a successful career but it was nothing to me. And my friends were the same way. Most girls want to get married. I’m not saying no one is ever too picky but usually at some point, the picky people get desperate and stop being as picky.
I didn’t say there are no 25+ year old single boys, but a very large percentage of bachurim in BMG get married before that. Ask AZ for exactly numbers. It’s large enough that I had a harder time getting dates once I hit the ripe old ages of 23 and 24.
Also want to mention that I had no problem with 30 year old guys. I wanted someone mature.
Bein hasdorim, I can’t believe you’re even asking the question after all the shidduhim threads. The reason they don’t have anyone to date is because there are much less older single guys than girls.
35 year old guys probably DO want to date girls in their 20s if they have a choice between that and 34 year old girls. But we don’t even have to come onto that reason, since there aren’t enough 35 year old guys to begin with.
I dated 30 year old guys when I was 23 and 24. Because even at that age it wasn’t so easy to get dates. Most guys in shidduchim are under 25, and by the time I got to 23 years old, I already had less dates than I did at 21/22. And this was more than 5 years ago when the crisis was not nearly as bad as it is now.
EDITED.
Well, when the older single girls can hardly get dates with normal people, then it’s not just a matter of waiting to find the right one. You can’t find the right one if there’s no one to go out with.
And if you don’t think it’s a crisis that girls will stay single all their lives, then I can’t help you.
I think Jothar makes a very important point about chassidish couples not expecting to be soulmates. And I wonder if that’s the way it was for everyone up until a few generations ago, and that’s why there were less divorces. Looking back at my grandparents, I don’t think either set was too blissfully married, but I don’t think divorce was ever considered as an option either. Marriage was looked at as a commitment for life, as it should be, except in extreme circumstances. Between wars, sickness and everything, I wonder if they didn’t even necessarily expect to be happily married. It was enough not to be completely miserable.
So I don’t know if we’re better off today when we expect our spouses to be our best friends. When it works out, it’s beautiful. But when it doesn’t, an entire family could be broken up if people don’t view marriage as a lifetime commitment.
This is my personal theory but I think there’s some truth to it.
hud, I had one sister who went to BJJ and one who went to Bnos Sara, and both brought friends with them to me for shabbos and meals. I got the impression that the Bnos Sara crowd was more diverse than BJJ. Bnos Sara is much more personalized. I would much rather send a daughter there than to BJJ which is very big and impersonal.
My sister went to Bnos Sara and loved that it was small and that she knew all the girls and all the staff. It sounds like most of the girls there also apply to BJJ, but I got the impression that it was much less of a “factory” than BJJ. That was 2 years ago when it was still newish, though. I don’t think they have so many tests, the main thing there is that they have 4-5 very hard reports throughout the year.
Starwolf, yes my husband has his share of household responsibilities. I never once did sponja or cleaned toilets since I am married. He often does the weekly shopping. Occasionally washes dishes. And watches the children daily.
As I said before, it’s just not possible to do everything. You must delegate, whether it’s to hired help, husband, or other children. Or to skip things altogether.
Thank goodness my cleaning lady just left, but you don’t want to know what my house looked like all week! Dishes literally piled up since Sunday morning. That is, whatever couldn’t be disposable. Which brings me to another tip: use disposable whenever possible. I’d love to be more considerate to the environment, but I’ll have to leave that for when I can afford to stop working.
I don’t have 5 kids yet, and I’m not up to the homework stage. I work full time, but don’t have the typical schedule. Without going into specifics about how I manage, because I’m not sure what exactly you are referring to when you say preparing for the next day, I will say that it is just not possible to do everything. Something has to go. As for me, I hardly do any housework and cleaning. I have a little bit cleaning help, but other than that I just live with a messy apartment. A lot of people wouldn’t be able to handle that, so you have to find something else to give up on or “outsource” if you can afford it. Make a list of things that need to get done in order of priority, with things like meals and laundry at the top, and find things at the bottom that you just have to give up on. Good luck, it’s not easy.
Joseph, of course it’s less radical. Ask anyone of marriagable age who grew up with the litvish mindset what they would prefer – to marriage someone close to their age, or to have an “arranged” chassidish shidduch.
artchill, I’m curious as to how many people you know who are in an abusive message directly as a result of the age gap awareness. As far as I know, people have always been getting into abusive marriages.
If, in fact, people are settling as a result of the crisis, that should be dealt with also, but the crisis shouldn’t be ignored.
You have realize that even without the age-gap awareness, girls were becoming desperate. Any girl in shidduchim, or anyone who knows girls in shidduchim doesn’t have to be a genious to see that something is very wrong for girls. A few years ago, I heard of an increase in broken engagements, supposedly because people rushed into engagements out of desperation. This was before the “hamon am” was made aware of the age gap.
Joseph, what changed in this generation? Until now it was always considered a necessity for the mother to be home at the expense of her husband’s full time learning.
artchill: can you be more specific about the “fallout” you keep on alluding to, and how many cases you’ve actually seen etc.?
Do you deny that there are so many terrific girls aged 28+ who can barely get dates?
AZ, I’m with you all the way. I just don’t post because I have nothing to add to what you say.
It bothers me immensely the way the people in the coffee room don’t take what you’re saying seriously and I have no explanation for it, since in real life, most people that I know do believe in the age gap problem.
What’s interesting is that the same people here who post in other contexts, “How dare we question the gedolim” and the like, are still mocking you after the letter with all the signatures.
Gourmet, very well said.
ModernOrthodox, doesn’t it say that the Jews were taken out of mitzraim because they didn’t change their dress, language etc? It sounds to me like we are supposed to stick out…
Health, not everyone wants to send their daughters to such a huge school. I went to BF when it was much smaller, but probably wouldn’t want to send my daughters for that reason.
Charlie Hall,
Can you explain the definition of empirical facts?
Were there ever empirical facts that were later disproven? Or is that a contradiction?
Thanks
oomis, he came to visit Israel, not us. He most certainly wasn’t a friend or relative.
I had a great experience with Eyewear Unlimited in Lakewood last year. The owner let my husband return a pair of glasses we didn’t like and exchange it for new frames at no extra cost (I don’t think he was able to use the same lenses). Not only that but since the new pair wasn’t ready on time before we left to e”y, he brought it to us when he came for a visit. All this for no charge.
Tzippi, I think your concerns about boys not being mature enough are valid, but if you would realize the magnitude of the shidduch crisis, you would realize that it’s a small concern compared to the alternative. If the trend becomes that boys start marrying earlier, eventually they will expect to get married earlier and be more ready for it (like the chassidim).
AZ I’m with you 100%. I just can’t understand why so many people on this site are in denial, and why they accuse you of having an agenda.
Just read through a bit more of this discussion and I want to make clear that I don’t agree with everything notpashut said (specifically regarding chumros), just about the part that MO look down on chareidim.
I don’t have time to read this whole discussion, but I agree with notpashut. I’ve been visting blogs and frum forums for years, and chareidi bashing seems to be the (sub)conscious agenda on the majority of them. Many people think that open mindedness goes one way. It’s PC to be open minded about anyone less religious or less machmir, but hatred and mocking of anything chareidi is perfectly acceptable. This is the general “mood” on the internet, and it even filters down to sites like Yeshivaworld, although to a lesser extent.
“It is the chareidei black hat olam that generaly say that there mehalach is the only one that can really be called Torah yiddishkeit NOT the other way around. “
Funny I should read this 5 minutes after reading a post on a different blog that stresses the importance of letting the world know that certain customs observed in certain chareidi communities are not normative Judaism.
I’m a girl (women) and I’m totally lost. I guess I’m naive but I didn’t know that people have their hair and nails done before every date. And these are same people who want to live a kollel life? And then someone else posts that that’s not enough, but manicures should done regularly? There’s something wrong if this is what yeshiva guys expect.
“Even if a guy is sitting in Kollel and not learning – at least he is in a good environment, not on teh filthy street….. “
Instead, his wife and/or father in law are on the filthy street to support him.
Totally agree.
Tzippi, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the concept either, but it is not done realistically at all. I was just responding to what you said about the American seminaries being the same as the Israeli ones in this respect.
bored@work, it sounds like your parents have no problem being able to afford sending you to seminary. In that case, I’m not saying that someone should davka not go. I’m just saying that it’s a luxury, not a necessity.
As far as coming back from seminary wanting to live in e”y after marriage, I don’t necessarily think that’s such a good thing. For one, the choice of where to live is not usually the wife’s. Secondly, if someone plans on supporting their husband in kollel, there aren’t any jobs to be found here that can even cover the rent. So they are essentially asking their parents to support them fully, which is about double the cost of one year in sem.
Tzippi, I went to Yavne and there was no type of lifestyle pushed on us at all as compared to the other seminaries. We learned tanach inside, the teachers were role models, and the only “hashkafa” class I remember was shaar habitachon. Kollel and similar topics were never discussed.
I don’t know about other seminaries in America. Not that there are too many other ones.
postsemgirl, to clarify a little bit more what I meant, I am not saying that you didn’t gain and that you didn’t change.
I will give one small example, and I can probably think of a lot more. Iy”h in a few years, when you’re spending every day of your life trying to get your toddler to stop picking on your baby, do you think your patience level will be different because you went to sem in e”y? If yes, then I say kol hakavod to your seminary.
Another example: I know so many people who would not have opted for a kollel life had they known what it would really entail. They only realize this after they are married for a few years. Which means they are not being prepared for real life.
postsemgirl, I don’t think you are in the position to tell until you are deep into real life. I would like to hear what you think in a few years.
bored@work and postsemgirl, you are the last people who are able to be objective about this topic. Of course your seminary experience was wonderful. The question was if it is necessary and worth the money. As someone who graduated from seminary about 10 years ago, I can honestly say that at this point, you cannot tell the difference between who went to sem in e”y and who didn’t. Someone I know who didn’t go to sem at all is now living in e”y and supporting her husband in kollel. I didn’t go sem in e”y but I live there now, and people ask me if I would’ve been more prepared to live here had I gone to sem. here and my answer is not at all. Sem. is nice and why not learn when you can, but I don’t think it really is preparation for real life. As far as being in e”y, you can get the same thing out of touring here for a few weeks.
Besides, I think that sem does a disservice by convincing the girls to marry a certain type of boy that there isn’t enough of on the “market”, and that they deserve to be supported by their parents.
Sem Tatty, wait ’til your daughter is looking for a shidduch. 20k will seem like nothing compared to what the boys will ask for. Speaking of shidduchim, I haven’t seen that where a girl went to seminary makes a difference.
My daughter is still a baby, but I do not plan on spending the money to send her to seminary in e”y. I can’t honestly say what I would do if all her friends were going, but I think it’s ridiculous.