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PBA: See, that’s where I might disagree. Depending on the situation, it would not at all be inappropriate to refuse. If accepting would build closer personal feelings, then it would probably not be so appropriate. But if it just builds gratitude or goodwill in general that anyone is willing to be so nice, I see no problem at all (and, once again, what type of feelings it will cause probably depends on what the communities were like that each of them grew up in and live in).
PBA: No. Miami, Chicago, LA, Baltimore are not like that. Though to be fair, you are right. This is about much more than Good Shabbos. Good Shabbos might be okay even in places where being friendlier is not. And being friendlier might not be okay even in places where Good Shabbos is.
PBA: Because sometimes it’s necessary to keep Yiddishkeit alive. People can’t stay alone in a bubble and be happy. I will not relate the whole story (it probably wouldn’t get past the mods), but something shockingly close (not inappropriate though) happened between a close friend of mine and a girl he knew. When I asked them how that was at all okay, they both responded, in unison, “He’s like my brohter” and “She’s like my sister”. The two were two of 7 Frum kids in the tiny Midwestern community where they grew up. Close communities there are how Yahadus (or any community) survives. And I don’t know “friends” per se, but people are certainly very friendly, even with members of the opposite gender (though obviously the guys are better friends with the guys and the girls better friends with the girls).
Englishman: Also, your mistranslation implies a Heter that R’ Moshe never said. Kishrei Re’us should not be translated as “close friendship”. R’ Moshe would Asser even a friendship that would be qualified as “friendly”, not just a close friendship..
Englishman: And how is “close friendships” relevant to saying “Good Shabbos” to someone you walk by on the street? I worded my response very carefully and it is accurate.
Dash: If the wife was unfaithful (and she admits to it or the Rav says that it is a situation where we believe it and that they must get divorced) why is a Frum couple seeing a therapist in the first place?
Englishman: I have. Trust me. I’m sure I know it better than you. It has no direct bearing on whether or not one can say “Good Shabbos” to a girl though.
PBA: Communal norms come up for a reason. In small communities, especially, it is very hard to have friends without being friends with their spouses as well. I agree that something would be strange about a large community in New York having looser norms, and maybe that is something for the community to work on, but it’s very hard to dictate norms to communities. Every community has such different dynamics and relationships with the outside world and therefore has different standards. And, hopefully, those standards came about through Shomrei Torah Umitzvos doing what they felt necessary to ensure that they and future generations remained Shomrei Torah Umitzvos. So I really feel like in most cases it’s not so appropriate to try and dictate standards to communities unless the community’s standards are clear violations of Halachah.
PBA: Okay, tremendous might be an overstatement. But he still is well-respected as a speaker and a Talmid Chacham and should be treated with a higher level of respect than I feel that you gave.
PBA: Have a little more respect for a tremendous Talmid Chacham. Whether or not your sentiment is correct, that was not quite a proper way to say that you disagree.
Vochindik: I believe that’s what Rabbeinu Tam says, yes. If it’s not consensual then she is Muttar to her husband even if it’s a Jew (unless her husband is a Kohen).
PBA: See my first post in this thread. I said it depends on where you are and what is accepted. If it’s a place where it’s accepted, then it would be rude not to. If you’re in a place where it’s not normally done, then by doing differently you are showing that you are doing something that is not considered standard decency where you are (a similar logic to R’ Moshe’s famous T’shuvah about being friends with a girl) and therefore you are being Over on a very Chamur Issur. I think that makes perfect sense. Do you disagree with that at all?
RebRY: Hair must be extremely long before it’s a Chatzitzah. Also, to be a Chatzitzah it has to be folded unnaturally. As long as it’s growing in its natural way, it probably isn’t a Chatzitzah according to many Rishonim (that’s how they answer how Shimshon wore T’fillin). And the Gemara says that it’s a good thing that the walls of the house never see the hair (well, sort of; it says that someone got rewarded for it-which usually teaches us that something is a good thing but almost never implies an obligation). But that’s a Kal V’chomer to all other M’komos that are Ervah. And the shaved head of a woman is an Ervah just like any other normally covered part. Thus, shaving the head to avoid the house “seeing” her hair doesn’t solve anything. The house can’t “see” her shaved head either.
But right now Turkey is a Modern Muslim country. Stop with the What-if scenarios. If we do our part and get Rid of the Medina and for some reason Turkey becomes another Islamic fascist State, then I’m sure Hashem will do his part and bring Moshiach.M/e>
I’m sorry Health, but that’s idiotic. Most of your ideas are sensible, even if I often think them incorrect. But your Turkey idea is incredibly foolish idealism at absolute best, and this post defending it is insane. You would be willing to risk millions of Jewish lives on you (not a major Kabbalist or Posek, but you yourself) being sure that giving Israel to Turkey will bring Mashiach?? That is idealistic negligence so severe that it’s genocidal. I know you liked the Turkey idea. But I think, at this point, even you have to admit that it’s wrong. And if you can find a better answer to rob’s point then fine. But this answer definitely doesn’t hold water.
Avhaben: It’s a Machlokes Rishonim whether she must be divorced if it’s with a Goy.
GAW: No. We don’t hold like Ben Azzai. The Chachamim censured him pretty strongly for it. (See, by the way, some of the explanations brought down for why he didn’t marry in Otzar Meforshim or Otzar Chachamim (I think that’s the name, it’s the giant Sefer that everyone uses but I’m blanking on the name right now) on Even Ha’ezer. Some of them are… interesting, to say the least.)
Avhaben: Wrong. That is not at all what I said. What I said was that you misunderstood Wolf’s point. Wolf’s point was that if you prohibit Stam talking with all Arayos (other than a mother/daughter) then you would not be allowed to have a conversation with a sister. Heck, you wouldn’t be allowed to say “Good Shabbos” to your wife when she’s a Niddah. This proves that there are exceptions to this “rule”. Now that Wolf had proven that, we can move on to trying to learn what women are prohibited to talk to and under what circumstances. (Note my first post on this thread, by the way.)
OVKTD: That Mechaber that says Harei Zeh Migasei Haruach is quoting a Gemara in Brachos, isn’t he?
Akuperma: It’s unlikely that very many people were ever killed by Beis Din with the necessity for Hasra’ah.
R’ Chaim Ozer was not such a fan of Chassidus, but the others on that list are all true as far as I know.
Avhaben: You miss his point. He’s attempting to prove that what you think of as Halachos can’t possibly be what the actual Halachah is.
Health: So on Erev Yom Kippur I am Mapkid to pick my feet up so water gets on the bottom of them, but I don’t have a Makor for that.
Avhaben: That comment came out of the blue. It’s not related to our thread at all. And why is your immediate family allowed? It should only be your wife or your daughter/mother. Your sister should be Assur too if you learn EH 21. That’s why everyone, at the very least to some extent, holds by the Rama at the end of that Siman.
Avhaben: No. As cherrybim said, that’s only for a man. Tumas Niddah required 40 S’ah. (Someone once told me that R’ Schachter once said that in theory a bath could work as a Mikvah for a woman, but something had to have been lost in the communication there.)
Shlishi: A greeting does not necessarily qualify as “Sh’eilas Shalom”.
Avhaben: Cherrybim is completely correct. It does not even have to be a long shower. And you do not have to be entirely immersed at once. You just have to make sure that over the course of the shower that 9 Kabim touch you (which will definitely happen) and that water hits everywhere. This is a Gemara in Brachos that Daf Yomi will get to in less than a week.
(If I recall correctly, some Achronim are Machmir that 9 Kabim was only for a Zaken or Choleh but that wasn’t what the majority of Rishonim held the Gemara’s Maskana was.)
Shlishi: See on the second page where we already discussed those. You presenting those sources as you are is quite possibly Halachically inaccurate and therefore misleading.
I still don’t get this. Even if it was just a joke, it’s not a terrible idea at all. Just because it hasn’t been done before doesn’t make it weird or abnormal. The first person to wear any glasses 200+ years ago was probably thought of as weird too. But he had the last laugh in the end. So too here. If these glasses exist and do not cause any long-term vision issues (which they probably would, but I’m sure that can be fixed) then they are not a bad idea at all. Why wouldn’t you avoid looking at Assur things as much as possible?
OVKTD: Yes, and that is a tremendous Z’chus for them. But there are a lot of things they do that are not so good for Frum Jews. Being a country where every law and decision affects Frum Jews magnifies everything. It means that every good choice does a ton of good for Jews, but every bad choice R”L does a lot of bad.
I also thought that was only for the Na’arah M’urasa (and I thought it was at the Sha’ar Ha’ir, but that I could easily be mistaken on).
Health: The Mitzvah of Yishuv Ha’aretz exists no matter what type of government there is. It existed under Roman, Christian, Muslim and British rule, even if we couldn’t do it then. And it applies now. The Medinah is Lo Ma’aleh V’lo Morid on whether there’s a Mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael.
Avhaben: No. You’re a Mazik in such a case.
PBA: There’s no Issur on marrying a Bas Niddah anyway. And we still believe in B’chirah Chofshis. Just because someone has more of a tendency towards Azus does not mean that they can’t overcome it or use it for good.
Vochindik: The case against opening most modern refrigerators is fairly weak. By nails in Sukkah, even if you assume like the way the Chazon Ish is read by everyone except R’ Schachter he’s still a pretty minority opinion. And glasses on Shabbos is only relevant where there’s no Eruv. The Minchas Elazar is also a minority opinion, especially nowadays where many, many people wear glasses all the time, which wasn’t true in his time.
Kozov: I think his point is that the Ba’al Hatanya’s son might have been Nogeya B’davar. But that’s irrelevant. RA”E is known to not have been an enemy of the Chassidim, though he never publicly endorsed them either. (There are stories that his son tore Kriya when R’ Leibele became a Chassid, but none of those are sourced anywhere near the actual Ma’aseh and were probably made up well after everyone involved had passed away.) But Feif’s point stands, even if RA”E is a poor example. Just replace him with the GR”A and the point is perfect.
Yitay: R’ Moshe says that we assume that.
More: All the Gemara says is that a Ben/Bas Niddah will be rude. Nothing about not keeping Halachah.
PBA: Are you trying to start another flame war? 🙂
Englishman: Popa’s joke is what your statement was reminiscent of. Now do you see how it came across incorrectly?
Vochindik: I will let the others on this thread who clearly know this Sugya far better than I do discuss the Halachic relevance of the Arizal’s Shittah (because his opinion that ties it to the Beis Hamikdash is clearly a minority one and we wouldn’t Pasken like the Arizal against a majority of Rishonim), but you can’t ask a question from a Gemara to an opinion? Have you ever learned before? Rishonim (and Achronim, though it’s rarer) reject Shittos in the Rishonim all the time because there are Gemaros against them. That’s how you learn. You ask Kashas and sometimes a Kasha is so strong that because of it you are Doche the Shittah from Halachah. R’ Hertzog and R’ Schachter (and the Radziner) are clearly on a level to do such a thing, even if people like you and I are not.
And about your list of Chumros to keep, some of them are very strange.
2) Dont eat chodosh
I honestly wouldn’t. It’s a Pele that we do. But to stop eating Chadash would be Motzi Laaz on dozens of generations who did. Pashtus is we (for whatever reason) hold like the Bach.
3) Dont let your wife wear transparent stockings
What’s the relevance of this? There is no Issur on transparent stockings. If you hold that ankles need to be covered, then of course transparent stockings above the ankle are not okay. If you hold the knee is the issue, then transparent stockings that show below the knee are for sure not okay. That’s not a Chumra. That’s explicit Halachah. (And forget transparent, even translucent ones would be problematic.)
4) Do Birkas Kohanim every day, even in Chutz Laaretz
The cities of Vilna and Pressburg almost burned down for trying to reinstitute Rirchas Kohanim. To quote the Aruch Hashulchan, “It’s as if it’s a G’zeirah from Shamayim” not to Duchan every day.
5) Do hagbaah before leining also
Why? This isn’t even a Din D’rabannan. It’s closer to a Minhag. So go with the way it’s Nahug. It’s certainly not something that belongs on a level with a possible Bittul Asei D’Oraisa and an Issur D’Oraisa of Bal Tigra.
6) Wash for a davar shetivulo b’mashkeh
Also explicit Halachah, and one which (by fruits) the Shulchan Aruch (and Gemara) say that one who follows is arrogant.
7) Specifically designate 2 witnesses by the badeken, like you do under the chupah
As far as I know the only Rav on earth who mandates this is a YU Rosh Yeshivah. It’s nice that you agree with him though. 🙂
9) Dont use nails to support the walls of your sukkah
Interestingly enough, R’ Schachter said that everyone misunderstands this Chazon Ish.
I feel like today’s Daf has a line relevant to this discussion.
Whatever day is most convenient. It’s all barely a Minhag. There are no Halachic obligations of the date.
Wolf: I actually think that’s what he meant (especially because of the parenthetical at the end), but I do agree that it came across disturbingly differently.
WIY: In the Siman of Negiyah. EH 21, if I recall correctly.
Shlishi: The gist of it, I believe, is that a minority shareholder who has no decision-making capabilities doesn’t count as an owner.
Chacham: I don’t remember it because I’ve never seen it. 🙂 I’ll go look it up now though.
Englishman: Okay. Deny Mekoros if you want. But the Rama seems to permit a whole lot more than just a brisk business handshake if you actually read him.
Shlishi: I believe R’ Moshe disagrees with that assertion.
Der Rav: And he still chose not to publicize this opinion against the other biggest Poskim in America today. That should tell you something as well.
R’ Moshe has T’shuvos about this, doesn’t he?
Greatest: Is the Rama not good enough for you? I think R’ Yaakov’s wording is perfect. A blanket leniency is impossible. Being lenient in any particular situation is very difficult. But there are situations that might warrant or necessitate it.