sechel83

@avaira funny you bring in sh”u harav, yes medrash, look at any maamer chassidus, thats what it is usually, an explanation on medrash. (and pilpul/raid – comes later according to sh”u)

the previous lubavitcher rebbe said, (not quoting exactly) although there is no measurement, but earlier chassidim said when they leaned a maamer 10-15 times, then contemplated on it 20-30 times, they felt a chayus penimi.
point it chassidus chabad needs to be learned in depth and contemplated many times to see the results.

if anyone wants to understand why chabad says that the rebbe is moshiach, and not previous tzadikim, and wants a makor in rambam igeres techiyas hamasim that moshiach can be from the dead, why some chabad says the rebbe is still alive, and what that means, and more… search “the rebbe shlita melech hamoshiach” on you tube. there is a series of shiurim from a litvak – rabbi yosef gavriel bechhover – on this topic.

b”h i grew up chabad, and beleive the rebbe is moshe rabainu of the generation, and a navi, etc. etc.
cuz if i grew up in any other community, i would be really confused, not know who to follow,
i encourage all to start learning chassidus and you wont feel the need anymore to fight or hate in order to feel fulfilled in life, you’ll live for something higher.
im not saying its 123 easy, it takes time and effort but its worth it.
finding faults in others is like spoken out against in almost every perek in shas, etc, you say it countless times in davening, etc

In the month of elul , the king – g-d comes to the field and is available to be approached – get closer to him, ask their needs- more than the rest of the year, when more preparation is needed. We say ברכנו אבינו כלנו כאחד, and many similar ideas say in torah that hashem likes when his children are one and love each other, and he blesses them, answers their requests etc .
A simple example: when your child comes to you and asks to buy him a toy, so if he’s coming straight from beeting up his brother and calling him derogatory names, you may not be as exited to fulfill his request vs if he is acting nicely with his brother and helping him out, giving him compliments and also inside really looking at the good in him and loving him
Just reminding everyone of the famous Torah of the baal shem tov (mentioned in בעל שם טוב על התורה פרשת מצורע ובכ”מ) that any bad one sees in another, hes just looking at a miror – himself)
P.s. as i wrote before, i backed off of this stupid argument. So im not answering any attacks. This post i feel is better.

Ill try to make a summary of the past 14 pages:
Disclaimer im just doing this for fun, im not trying to convince anyone, and i think about 99% of rabbonim today consider 99% of chabad totally frum yiden.
Basically some claim its a christian idea to beleive moshiach can come from the dead, the ramban writes about this, and others answered its a gemara, abarbanel, sdai chedem etc, so at most its a machlokes
Some argued that a lot of chabad prays to the rebbe and think he’s g-d, and others simply say its hallucination
Some referred to a sicha where they claim the rebbe says that the previous rebbe was g-d and therefore one can pray to him
Others answered that they simply twisted the words, the rebbe is talking about asking for brachos and tikunim (which when the rebbe said this sicha in 1950, it was not as accepted as now to ask for brachos from a tzadik, some considered this a ממוצע), and the rebbe says that all jews are one with g-d (zahar) and also chassidim and the rebbe are one thing, so it comes out there is no ממוצע because its atzmus umehus how he enclothed himself in a body and brings a zohar and yerushalmi to compare it to, so 1) its not even clear to me that the body the rebbe is referring to is the previous rebbe, in fact the rebbe was speaking after the frierdiker rebbe passed away 2) the rebbe clearly compares it too a zohar and yerushalmi and clearly wants it to be understood the same as you would understand those sources. (the sicha is printed in likutai sichos vol 2 page 509 and on)
They also brought many other sources niglah and kabala that say this same idea,
The anti chabad continued to argue that the niglah and kabbalah seforim dont mean it literally but the rebbe meant it literally, and for that reason one should not learn kabala.
Chabad answered: well first why do you assume the rebbe meant it different then all the other seforim? 2) one of the things chassidus came to do was to explain kabala so everyone can learn it (including this idea is explained at length in many places in chassidus), and its not only kabbalah, its also niglah as mentioned, in fast one reading chumash sees the idea of a body terms for hashem which you end up with the same issue to explain. 3) if so, how come almost all the gedolim didn’t talk out against it, the sicha was said in 1950, printed in 1962, and it took decades for (all the big gedolim to pass away) someone (a professor) to come out against it (he did get some endorsement from a few real misnagdishe rabbanim)
The anti chabad say, that none of the gedolim ever heard of this sicha, if they would have, they would have definitely came out against the rebbe. And really many gedolim even who endorsed the rebbe only did it to be more accepted, they wrote things they didn’t mean, but told one person what they really held.
chabad answered: i see how much you hold of your gedolim, such a big problem happening in the world that chabad is openly serving a”z ch”v and bringing more and more jews to do so, and none of the gedolim cared, spoke up? Look in gemerah shabbos about the churban that the gedolim were punished for not speaking up. It also talks there about chanifa, how bad it is, so i would make a machaa for accusing reb moshe of that and also writing sheker.
Sorry if i missed any important issues, i didn’t have so much time to look thru everything, but i think i covered the main points.
I will add that i myself IF i would see anyone referring to the rebbe as g-d or praying to him, i would consider him to be serving a”z, but i to date (living in chabad communities all my life, learning in 770 for yrs, going to many many shluchim) never heard of this idea till i heard it from litvaks

Ok how many circles do you want to go in. The Rebbe quotes a Zohar very simple, some accuse the Rebbe of explaining the Zohar in a way that they consider a”z. To me the Rebbe is very clearly just saying the same thing that it says in Zohar, anyone who says otherwise is motzi shem ra, choshed bichsharim, etc. etc.
The Rebbe never said g-d is inclothed in a body, maybe berger said that.
He never said you can pray to the Rebbe.
Simply never happened. People who can’t read, or maybe have schizophrenia say thats what the Rebbe said.
I was just trying to explain to their schizophreniac mind that they will also run into questioning all the other gedolim according to their hallucination

@5783 smart comment. Rav shach was against learning rambam for this reason, people read it, don’t learn the mekoros,and think they know everything , and can pasken

@qwerty613, that’s exactly my point, that reb Moshe and all the rest of the gedolim didn’t have an issue with the statement because they knew Gemara , Zohar etc, so from 1962 (when it was printed) no one had an issue till some am haaratzim that don’t know the above seforim saw the sicha and think it’s a”z ch”v

@qwerty if you know what rav Moshe would say, why don’t you take his place as a gadol hador. You’re trying to say that rav Moshe being the “unquestioned gadol hador” till he passed away would let such a big movement as chabad start serving a”z and be mikarev thousands and thousands of Jews to this beleife, and he was afraid to speak up? He didn’t know of the sicha? He definitely knew about it, there were misnagdim then also who spoke about it and definitely people brought it to him. And if not well being the gadol hador, it’s definitely his achrayos to know what’s going on in chabad. So my conclusion is that he knew and had no issue (cuz as the Rebbe brings it’s a clear yerushalmi and a Zohar) and later on people like berger who don’t know yerushalmi and Zohar decided it’s kefira. Btw even today who even accepts the anti chabad movement, seems like it’s only some talmidim of rav shach, and even those, it doesn’t seem like they really care because if they thought chabad was a”z, they have a mitzvah to uproot it, I think it’s just politics.

@Qwerty. To reemphasize my question, some claim that there is an issue ch”v with the rebbe’s statement, it was already mentioned that the same statement exists in Gemara, Zohar, rishonim, kabala, kedushas Levi etc.
Some still claim there is a difference,
So my question is that if it’s a”z why were all the gedolim of the privious generation quiet. I would assume reb Moshe would speak out if he thought it was an issue, but we see that he kept encouraging the rebbe’s mivtzoim etc.

What about using this forum on internet, pretty sure all gedolim came out against using internet unless litzorech parnasa, besides for chabad

@yankel berel. I have no issue with the history of the Rebbe. I think the only people who think that book speaks negative about the Rebbe are the people who only read the introduction and as one of his own conclusions, there isn’t any negative history there, I think everyone should read it (but I think chaim millers book is much more researched.)
It’s hard for people like us to calculate the level of depth in the rebbe’s Torah. But one thing is seems to everyone clear is the Rebbe was Baki in basically every Sefer printed before the war. To as and I’m not trying to say that there weren’t others, but it’s a chutzpah for people to disrespect the Rebbe, that’s all

the difference between chabad’s view on chabad and the rebbe, and the misnagdim is this:
chabad: look at over 200 volumes of the rebbes torah, videos, audio, first hand stories of open ruach hakodesh and miracles (even many stories you can see the actual miracle or ruach hakodesh on video), we have nothing to hide, if you dont see the gadlus, well you must be beyond stupid.
misnaged: my freind in 9th grade told me that rav .. said this, rav .. said this. even though rav moshe and every other litvishe gadolim respected chabad (as documented) but that was before…, i heard that he didn’t really mean it, my rebbi told me that …, professor berger (i guess the latest gadol) wrote … etc…
vda”l
pretty crazy how people can deny such obvious facts.
this is what it says in ikvosa dimshicha

(i forgot) on my post about the rebbe being a navi, i brought up the point that nisbatel nevuah, and i asked you back that the gemara says that yiras chait and anava were also, so will you attack someone who claims your rosh yeshiva or godol has yiras chait or anava?
so stop hacking and learn the sugya, menachem already quoted the sicha, and a rambam to learn.

@mdd thats my point, because we learn chassidus at length and in depth we understand it correctly (look in derech mitzvosecha, shoresh mitzvas hatfilah) the people who dont learn chassidus, see one line out of context and go crazy. and then scream at us for learning kabala cuz they thnk we understand it the same way they do. so whats your pshat?

@arso one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows
הרינו קובעים בזה פסק הלכה על-פי דין תורתנו הקדושה – מבוסס על ההלכה שברמב”ם פרק ז’ הלכות יסודי התורה הלכה א’, פרק ט’ הלכה ב’ ופרק י’ הלכה א’ – שכבוד קדושת אדמו”ר מלך המשיח יש לו דין נביא ומפורש בשיחותיו הקדושות שמרמז על עצמו שהוא נביא ומובן משיחותיו הקדושות שהוא הוא המלך המשיח, וכן עודד שירת “יחי אדוננו מורנו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד”, וכבר אמר לעיני כל ישראל ולעיני כל העולם דברים העתידים להיות ובאו דבריו ונתקיימו במילואם ב’מלחמת ששת הימים’ וב’מלחמת המפרץ’ ועוד ועוד.
ועל כן מחויבים אנו לשמוע לכל אשר יאמר לנו מגדר החיוב לשמוע לדברי הנביא, ובכלל זה – שהוא המלך המשיח ויתגלה אלינו מיד ממש
so if you know any chazal (which from your last attack, it seems not so) you will ask from sotah, well then you will have the same question on anava and yiras chait.
so learn the whole sicha inside, and you wont have questions.

@qwerty613. someone asked a simililar question to the rebbe, the answer is printed in אגרות קודש חלק א אגרת פה, its a long answer with many sources, fascinating answer.

seforim which say that a neshama is a חלק אלקה ממעל
חדושי אגדות מהרש”א (שבת לב, א חלק אלקה בלי תיבת ממעל) פני יהושע ב”מ נח ב, מלבי”ם ישעי’ נ, א (ובכמה מקומות בספרו) העמק דבר ואתחנן ז, י ובכמה מקומות בספרו. ועוד
רמ”ק בספר הפרדס ריש שער לב, ראשית חכמה שער האהבה פ”א ופ”ב ובכ”מ שם. האריז”ל בשער רוח הקודש דף ל”ט ע”א בהוצאת ירושלים – צויין בהערות על תניא ולקוטי תורה פ’ בראשית. שפע טל (למקובל ר’ שבתי שעפטל הורוויץ, תלמיד הרמ”ק) בהקדמה ובארוכה בספרו נשמת שבתי הלוי (שער ד ואילך). של”ה בבית חכמה בסופו (ובכ”מ בספרו) יושר לבב (לבעל משנת חסידים) בית א חדר ד פ”ב. יערות דבש ח”א דרוש א. אור החיים ר”פ בראשית ועוד
it that enough sources? so whoever has an issue with the sicha, 1) they will need to answer all these sources 2) they will need to answer tanya perek 2 (which i understand today, no one has an isse with the baal hatanya, and as time goes on the same will be with the rebbe. (even today almost no one has issues with the rebbe (alot of litvaks say that r shach went against chabad mainly for saying the rebbe is moshiach cuz he weas worried that if it dosent happen, chabad will go off the derech, well now were almost 30 yrs later))).

to much to read today. so ill answer and explain a little for now:
disclaimer this (and any of my other posts)
is my own personal opinion, i dont speak for chabad
my beleif that the rebbe is moshiach has 2 aspects.
1) based on what chassidus is, which is penimius hatorah, its the deepest level of torah called yechida. it reveals סתים דקוב”ה סתים דאורייתא סתים דישראל. and how these three are all one (answers the other attach someone had on עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף) and how nothing else exists in the world – אחדות ה. now what a rebbe means is the leader of the generation who has the neshama called yechida haklalis and he reveals by everyone in the generation their yechida shebinefesh to some extent in galus, this will be complete when moshiach comes. (based mainly on קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות) so obviously i beleive the rebbe is moshiach (chassidim always beleived this about their rebbe)
2) the rambam is writing according to halacha how we can tell if someone is moshiach. so the rambam writes ואם יעמד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו. כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה. ויכף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה. וילחם מלחמות ה’. הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח. (אם עשה והצליח ובנה מקדש במקומו וקבץ נדחי ישראל הרי זה משיח בודאי.
so in this aspect to me it seems clear thar the rebbe fit chezkas moshiach and so many rabbonim paskend too. the rebbe never finished and came moshiach vadai.
now (according to my understanding of the rambam) the rambam says that if this person who is bichezkas moshiach dies then he’s not moshiach, but that just means that from a halachik look, you may have thought he was moshiach, you only saw in him chezkas moshiach so now since he died, he’s not. but this is all in #2, meaning if im a simple jew who never learned chassidus, and only understands technical things so i have no reason to say the rebbe is moshiach now, (my whole reason when he was alive would be because i saw he fit the rambam) but since i learned chassidus b”h, and i have a deeper understanding on what moshiach is so the rebbe is prosumingly still moshiach (this does not contradict the rambam like i explained)
disclaimer; obviouly the rambam knew all this, but he wrote his sefer for every jew – כקטן כגדול – like he writes in the hakdama.
i hope i was clear enough – but see קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות and likutai sichos vol 27 parshas bechukosai

@emunas one: #1 read above.
#2 thanks for the source, but its talking about the idea that the Christians say moshiach already came and is was yoshke, nothing to do with this discussion, i don’t say moshiach already came. and the fact the the ramban published it, well the gemarah was also published. and back to the same question what about the gemarah? and find me a better source that the ramban said moshiach cant come from the dead!

@no mesorah. see tanya אגרת הקדשׁ כו
dont know how to figured that, see קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות
(if chassidus is musar of kabala, i might agree with you, but i learned more than a few pages and realized it has nothing to do with either)

@emunas did you even learn exactly what the rebbe said or you just saw it in the dumb book of kefira written by a sonei yisroel?
dumb questions, but im still waiting for a source about theses debates with Christians.
and if you have one, well there are many more reasons why yashke cant be moshiach, and you will still need to answer the gemarah, but first lets start with the source,
2) we find in gemarah many times when goyim asked yidden questions and they just gave them an answer to push them away, its not a source, see i.e sanhedrin beginning of perek chelek, meseches tamid

@qwerty613
i realized recently that litvaks and others too look ar judaism as groups. everyone of each group needs to do the same thing in your opinion, and if you see soome random lubavitcher do something obviously he speaks for the whole lubavitch.
so ill educate you: if you want to know chabad beleifs – learn chabad seforim from the lubavitcher rebbe’s. to know chabad minhagim: – shulchan aruch of the alter rebbe, sh”ut tzemach tzedek, sefer haminhagim chabad. sharai halacha uminhag, shulchan menachem. (main sources of things we may do different than others)
anything else – not from one of the chabad rebbes – doesn’t talk for the whole chabad. and we should judge everyone lkaf schus even if we think he is doing something wrong or has a wrong beleif, and we should look at ourselves maybe we have the same issue, and fix ourselves. (so says the baal shem tov) and especially if i dont even know the halachos of the thing im judging him for, if i just have my mesorah, well maybe he has a different mesorah.