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@emunas did you even learn exactly what the rebbe said or you just saw it in the dumb book of kefira written by a sonei yisroel?
dumb questions, but im still waiting for a source about theses debates with Christians.
and if you have one, well there are many more reasons why yashke cant be moshiach, and you will still need to answer the gemarah, but first lets start with the source,
2) we find in gemarah many times when goyim asked yidden questions and they just gave them an answer to push them away, its not a source, see i.e sanhedrin beginning of perek chelek, meseches tamidthere is actually a story that one of the rebbes said moshiach with be a misnaged because if he is a chosid, the misnagdim wont follow him.
i would definatlly accept the biggest misnaged as moshiach as long as he does what the rambam says moshiach will do. my point is only that al pi chassidus there is a deeper meaning in moshiach, and gemarah and lamdus dosent have anything to do with it, so if hashem desides obviously he can send who he chooses to be moshiach and teach chassidus (see keser shem tov siman 1, and many other places)@coffee addict: to answer your question, i believe the rebbe was a tzadik gamur like the tanya explains and i beleive moshiach will be a tzadik gamur. see derech mitzvosecha mitzvas מינוי מלך. i dont know what you mean by perfect.
@emunas 1: can you please explain what makes such a beleif wrong? does it controdict one of the 13 ikrim and why? (or is it just an argument in pshat of a gemara)@qwerty613
i realized recently that litvaks and others too look ar judaism as groups. everyone of each group needs to do the same thing in your opinion, and if you see soome random lubavitcher do something obviously he speaks for the whole lubavitch.
so ill educate you: if you want to know chabad beleifs – learn chabad seforim from the lubavitcher rebbe’s. to know chabad minhagim: – shulchan aruch of the alter rebbe, sh”ut tzemach tzedek, sefer haminhagim chabad. sharai halacha uminhag, shulchan menachem. (main sources of things we may do different than others)
anything else – not from one of the chabad rebbes – doesn’t talk for the whole chabad. and we should judge everyone lkaf schus even if we think he is doing something wrong or has a wrong beleif, and we should look at ourselves maybe we have the same issue, and fix ourselves. (so says the baal shem tov) and especially if i dont even know the halachos of the thing im judging him for, if i just have my mesorah, well maybe he has a different mesorah.i love how people give opinions about the what is ok about gedolim and what they did thats not ok, so basically these people think they know better than the gadol.
my opinion is i have my rebbe, and i accept him 100%.my point is that people think that a big gadol who knows alot of lamdus is likely to be moshiach, well
the rambam says that only halachos of torah will be forever, (not shaklah vitarya, (questions come from a concealment on g-dliness, and kelipa, when moshiach comes, there will be no more kelipa, or concealments on g-dliness))
my point it that some people dont begin to understand what moshiach is!@avaira. i agree its offensive, but its true. thats the fact, that what tanya calls a tzadik its much greater than a litvak can imagine. and in chabad we spend at least a few hours a day learning about gadlus hashem.
btw the ramban holds there will be everlasting psychical life after techiyas hamasim, chassidus explains this idea in depth, at length.anyone who says that moshiach can not come from tthe dead, is a kofer in torah. (he’s arguing with a clear gemarah)
@damoshe, my point is to make you think, if you have complaints about how moshiach can come from the dead, i ask back this question, time for these antagonist to open a gemarah sanhedrin, rambam hilchos melachim, hilchos teshuvah, etc. (and learn the rebbe’s sichos on moshiach, because simply he the only one who learned and spoke about these sugyos so much, check out the sefer dvar malchus)
my thoughts on some misnagdim who say some chabad says any g-dly terms about the rebbe.
apparently in chabad we have a much greater definition on what is a tzadik, and our understanding (the little we can) and beleif about hashem is also much greater.
so when a chabad says the rebbe lives forever, some litvaks claim “how can you say such a thing? only g-d is forever” (once i heard a misnagdishe rov speak about chabad for saying leolam voed about a person, apperently he dosent know tehillim – 22, suckah perek lulavv vaaravah)
and many claims like this, its the same idea.@someday: my point was to make you think, its a simple answer once you understand the sugya – likutai sichos vol 27 bichukosai. rav yerucham, mamash amazing chizuk vort but docent answer the question.
@american yeshivish kabala and chassidus are not the same. toras moshiach is not kabala its chassidus. you can argue if you want, im just pointing out what shitas hachassidus is. (and musar has nothing to do with chassidus, furthest thing from it)כל המיצר לישראל נעשה ראש גיטין נו
similar can be said about chabad, whoever stands up against chabad becomes a gadol, whoever becomes chabad – like r ezra shochat, r’ yosef avraham heller, r shlome zelig feldman all top bochurim of brisk, but when they became chabad, for some reason the litvaks dont care about their gadlus anymore.“but in the opinion of most of the Gedolim in Klal Yisroel, it absolutely happens and Chabad does nothing to discourage it” – i guess its a machlokes (bimtzius) of the gedolim whether it happens or not, some litvish gedolim think it happens, chabad and chassidish gedolim hold it dosent happen, and that answers simply why they dont do anything about it (the thing that dosent happen).
why would moshiach be someone who is alive? he will teach torah to moshe rabainu and the avos, who alive today is eligible for that?
@yserbius #motzi shem ra, choshed bichsharim.
if someone beleives the rebbe is alive sitting in his chair then what? which one of the 13 ikrim does this contradict. (learn igeres hatshuvah (tanya) #27, sefer chassidim about rebbi, gemarah kesubos 103 i think)im still waiting to see a sefer that says moshiach cant come from the dead? someone?
i love all misnagdim, im sorry if anyone gets offended by the term snag, its just short for misnagdimthats my point. people who never learned chassidus say that. other rebbes were against certain things in chabad for example voting in israel, satmer is against, so they are against lubavitch and ponovitch and many others. as well as many other examples. only one famous rosh yeshiva, was against everything chabad did and does.
can anyone please reference me one source that says clearly that moshiach can not be from the dead?
litvaks understand moshiach (and judaism) very gashmiusdik. a king will get up – maybe natanyahu – get rid of all the arabs from yerushalayim and eretz yisroel, build the bais hamikdash, bring all yidden to israel and they will learn gemara. chassidus explains much deeper, what a king really is, the giluy elokus that will be then, what a bais hamikdash is bepnimius, etc
@ yankel berel , and how do you define a apikores? look in gemarah, 2) so i can decide who is an apikores, cuz i heard lashon hara about him?
i think every chabadsker loves rav shach and all misnagdim. that dosent mean i need to follow him, or accept was he said, or think he was a tzadik (al pi tanya, obviously him and every other jew is a tzadim – veamach kulom tzadikim)
@ avira – so? ok the rebbe printed on the parsha, the rebbe is entitled to do different. (btw the rebbe asked his father in law the frierdiker rebbe why he dosent speak ideas in niglah, and he said its not his mission in the world, so apparently the rebbe wanted to do it this way even though he could have printed on rambam and shas and maybe attracted more litvaks (i doubt it, cuz i don’t believe thats the issue misnagdim have). there is a maase the alter rebbe said if he would have taken out certain world of tanya he would have another 100,000 chasidim, but chassidus demands emes.
im just saying that anyone honest to looks into the rebbe’s torah will see. (the rebbe is the only gadol that thousends of hours of his life is on video and audio, and it cant be denied his greatness.
the baba sali wrote to the rebbe the following (you can see it in non chabad sources)
לכבוד קודש הקודשים, עמוד העולם, אור ישראל ותורתו, שלא קם כמותו, שר התורה והוראה, אהוב בשמים ובארץ, מורנו ורבינו הרב מנחם מענדל מליובאוויטש, הנני עבדך הקטן ישראל,
עליתי ממרוקו לארץ ישראל, ואנשים כאן לא נתנוני השב רוחי, באים אלי בכל שעות היום והלילה, ונבצר ממני לעבוד את ה’ כאשר היתה באומנה עימי, ימים ולילות שלא ביטלתי מן התורה רגע אחד.
ועתה נפשי בשאלתי אם אוכל לבוא אליך לארצות הברית לגור על ידך בקרבת מקום, ואסתר מעיני כל איש.
קיבלתי עלי שמה שיורני מורנו הרב אעשה, כיון שהוא עמד העולם, וכך הכריזו עליו בשמים”.
and if there is no misnagdim today, great, that’s what the rebbe said, baruch hashemso the chofetz chayim promoted ahavas yisroel and being carefull about lashon hara. we should all be more carefull in that. yes chabad believes that hashem created the world to have a dirah bitachtonim, which we accomplish by every mitzvah we do, it will be completed when moshiach comes – see tanya perekim 36-37. actually this idea is the most in line with doing mitzvos only to fullfill the ratzon of hashem. too deep to explain. learn hemshach yom tov shel rosh hashana 5666 to understand at length (close to 1 thousend pages) or at least the first 100 pages or so to get an idea. one point, all the other reasons it says in gemara, medrash, zohar, are all reasons that are intellectual, נתאוה הקב”ה להיות לו דירה בתחתונים is only because hashem was נתאוה. there is no reason why hashem desires this. and no gain either to hashem or us. only hashem desires.
there is a place in torah it says its a mitzvah to hate someone – someone who sees his freind do an avaira, now in tanya perek 32, the alter rebbe explains a bit certain conditions for this, and says its also a mitzvah to love him.
sinas chinam means to hate someone for any other “valid” reason besides if you yourself saw him do the avaira etc with all the conditionsits funny, if the alter rebbe didm’t write the shulchan aruch, the misnagdim probobly would have said today that he wasn”t a talmid chacham, like some might say about the other chabad rebbe’s. the rogotchover gaon once spoke about the rebbe maharash that he was a great gaon, someone asked him how does he know being that he didn’t speak or print much niglah? the rogetchover answered that he can see from his maamarim chassidus. maybe others should follow his example, look at a maamer of the rebbe or previous chabad rabbaim, although its not a pilpul on a tosfos, but in one sefer maamarim is quoted from all over shas, rishonim, achronim. all medrashim, tons of sifrai kabala etc. thousends of m”m, seems like some are just blind. i dont understand how some can say such stupid things that about the rebbes.
somehow every chabad topic turns to moshiach.
b”h chabad taught the world to think about moshiach, i hope one day soon chabad’s love for every jew and acceptance, non judging of every jew will spread to the rest of the world, and we will great moshiach very soon.@yserbius: A very very Chareidi Rebbi? sounds like a person speaking lashon hara, apikorsos – the gemara says a apikores is someone who embarases a talmid chacham -, causing sinas chinam which the whole told was given to make shalom in the world. whats charidi about him?
square root: If mashiach-from-the-dead really is possible, then why did NOBODY in Chabad / Lubavich believe in mashiach-from-the-dead when Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was still alive and healthy?
actually before 3 tamuz many litvakts had that claim that moshiach cant be someone alive today cuz of the yeridas hadoros, moshiach must be from the dead. look in yated from those years, or Wikipedia.
but ok so you have a good question? now what? anyway before Lubavitch said the rebbe is moshiach, the world didn’t speak much about itlearn kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach. The Kuntres provides an in-depth analysis, into the topic of Moshiach from the maisim, as discussed by Chazal.
who was the gaon? just wondering? i hear people say it often, you mean the rogetzover gaon?
people kept on coming up with more and more things to attack chassidim with, first it was we want moshiach now, then how can chabad say their rebbe is moshiach (before 3 tamuz) , then after 3 tamuz it was how can moshiach be from the dead. just another accuse.
it seems some litvaks dont are scared of moshiach ?? dont know!!@yeshivaguy 45. its not a machlokes, the gemara is just saying “”If Moshiach is from those who are alive now, [then] surely he is Rabbeinu Hakadosh [Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi], who suffers sicknesses and is an absolute saint . . . If he is from those who have already died, [then] he is Daniel, the delightful one, who was condemned to suffer in the lions’ den and was an absolute saint” (rashi)
see the kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach
In-depth insights into the sugia of Moshiach min hamaisim from chazal and rishonim
(with haskamos from r’ yitzchok breitowitz, and others)i think from being around, the litvaks dont talk about it beetween themselves, but when they bump into chabad in camps or vacations, they – the teenagers and kids attack the chabad kids or teenagers, maybe they come back to school and mention to their friends what happened. b”h today the typical litvak respects chabad,
but just to mention, a regular litvak is not taught in school about chabad, so they just hear random stuf from their friends like they do kiruv, and mivtzoim, many young ones think that the chabad houses are there for them to have a minyan when they go on vecation.
its like in chabad we are not toaght about their gadol hador and many in chabad never heard of alot of things by them and may think its strang or even have things about them twisted.so i would assume most non chabadniks never learned too much about yechida haklalis and what it has to do with moshiach, rebbe, chassidus. you can learn about it in קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות. there you can also learn about what chassidus is.
another point people should realize is that when they see a chabadnik with a yechi yalmuka, and ask him if the rebbe is alive, well its a big chance he will say yes…… – his point is just go fly a kitelets say i would say yes, would i be a kofer or apikores or both? please explain why?
i believe the rebbe had the neshama of yechida haklolis and was the moshiach of the generation, now he can still be, but i believe there is someone alive today who can be moshiach. i beleive this is the comen belief in chabad meshichist which i have no clue how big this group isok avira so you brought another source that techiyas hamasim can be before moshiach comes. so what is the issue of moshiach from the dead?
Edited again
one can only know what a misnaged is if he knows what chassidus is. some say they are against chabad cuz …… did you ever learn keser shem tov from the baal shem tov or baal shem tov al hatorah?
baalai machshava and mikubalim? bring maarai mikomos! rambam? where?
zohar is זהר ח”א קלט, א. וראה גם כן שם קלד, א.
you want me to instead of just bringing one sicha in likutai sichos, to write all the 107 marai mikomos?
i dont see any valid questions on me, anything with a source?you can see it on otzar hachachma in the sefer ביקור שיקאגו which is the sichos the frierdike rebbe said in chicago in 5702 page 21
you can find ספר השיחות תשב there also but youll need to buy a subscription to see past the first 100 pages i don’t know why Hebrew books doesn’t have it.
(btw now you can attack me for writing 100 and not 150)
anyways i dont even know what were arguing about anymore. i just brought this up to point out – like even you just wrote – that the misnagdim were against the idea of “A major issue was the replacement or addition to the talmid chochom as the only leadership position of klal yisroel, with someone whose chief activities and notoriety was in the area of avodah and tzidkus. While integral to yiddishkeit, the idea of a leader being defined as a leader by anything else besides torah was objectionable.”
i was pointing out that today this is what we do in chabad, we have out talmid chachom – the rebbe – (anyone honest who looked into the rebbe knows he was a גאון עולם) and we give him major respect.sorry for your “misunderstanding” (i hope). i meant the zohar that says that techiyas hamasim, will be later, did you ever hear of this zohar honestly? can you bring me this zohar or another makor about when techiyas hamasim will be? i was just bringing out how some people on this forum dont know anything in this sugya, very clear.
the complaints are getting stupider and stupider. in chabad we have a clear derech on every aspect of life printed in sifrai chassidus, obviously we also have rabbonim, roshai yeshivos, mashpiim to answer questions. i wish we would have a living rebbe, but we cant sprinkel watar on someone to make him what a rebbe is – a neshima that is בבחינת ראש – tanya.
ok so litvaks also have a derech, im happy to hear.bh the teachings of the baal shem tov hakadosh are being spread more and more, and more and more people are following what he thought. אימתי קאתי מר לכשיפוצו מעינותיך חוצה. bh may it be very soon.
its so funny how some people just cought up by one line i mentioned and go crazy.
the idea of that misnagdim had those complaints, you can read about in sefer hasichos 5702, the debate in minsk, yes chabad sources, btw just find me letters etc from the above sources you wanted who write against chassidim at all maybe if you find letters from the time of the baal shem tov, you’ll find these reasons too. what do you claim the hisnagdus was all about?
anyway that was such a side point. but as i see, misnagdim just catch onto anything to harras chabad simple. (btw its basi ligani 5723 not 5729, typo)yserbius please tell me about this machlokes when techiyas hamasim will be.
ראה יומא ה,ב, based on that gemara some explain that tzadikim will have techiyas hamasim right when moshiach comes, but even without that: everyone agrees that there will be techiyas hamasim, can someone explain to me what is the sevara that moshiach cant be from the masim?
even according to the zohar (which probobly only chabad heard of) that techiyas hamasim will be later, explain to me the simple reason for it. if you cant explain it to me, then learn לקוטי שיחות חלק כז בחוקתי.again my point: the gemara says moshiach can be from the dead (according to one pirush in rashi)
also the abarbenel, sdai chemed, zohar. find me one sourse that says moshiach can not be from the dead!
(the point i was saying from rambam is that you cant bring a proof because he dosent mention techiyas hamasim there either, so will you say the rambam dosent hold of it?! (btw in hilchos teshuvah the raavad mentioned this) so obviously you didin’t learn this sugya at all.)
so lets say the rambam holds moshiach can not be from the dead, so its a machlokes with the abarbenel, sdai chamed, zohar and rashi.
who mentions that believing moshiach from the dead is kefira? and if you say that, youre also saying that the above opinions are kofrim c”v! simple.avaira, the point i was referring to in tanya was to explain what a tzadik is. perek bais explains the different levels of neshamos, a talmid chachon is a neshama diatzilus, if you want to understand a little what is means, look in the chabad biurim, or basi ligani 5729, or just take the words and have no clue what is means, 29 also takls about what a tzadik is.
keser shem tov was the first sefer printed of the teachings of the baal shem tov btw, you should learn the whole thing before criticize chabad, cuz youll see, its all there.learn about it in
לקוטי שיחות חלק כז פרשת בחוקתיyou can learn about it in לקוטי שיחות פרשת בחוקתי.
avira, according to your answer, why cant moshiach be one of the people which will have techiyas hamasim? also why dosent the rambam mention it at all there? basicly seems like you never learned the sugya, anything you guys call “hashkafa” you just make up bologna, dont bother learning agada, medrash, etc.
ya again because you didn’t understand what i was trying to bring out, you call the whole chabad kofrim?!
“moshiach coming from the dead is a chidush” why? answer simply: you said there are 2 mekoros that mention it, how many say it cant be? what about techiyas hamasim? according to you its not even a chidush in maseh braishis!edited
ראה כתר שם טוב קלב, הוספות צב, קלה,קלו,קלח,קמג,קנז, קנח
ראה תניא פרק ב, כט
ועוד ועוד