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taka
“Shtuyot. The plural is shtuyot.”
This isn’t correct. In Hebrew yes the plural is shtuyot but in Yiddish it is shtusim.
Same for Shabbosim
See Dovid Katz’s article “kapitlech in Yiddish” in the ALgemeiner Journal 2/12/2010.
Or ask any Yiddish speaker” I mentioned earlier that Medicare is generally for people aged 65 and older. People that age grew up in a different era where they took more responsibility for their health. Once you start including the younger generations the costs will spiral out of control.”
I dont think its an important point. I know young people careful about their health and old people that ignore it.
This is your go to for every example
elderly, Europeans All super careful about their health. dialysis patients, oh I guess they are too. You made an assertion, with out much to back it up
And no it wont spiral out of control. young people use much much less health dollars than those > 65“I don’t believe you’ve said that they should all be closed down.”
I don’t think you are reading my posts
Here are some verbatim quotes of mine” I don’t think health insurance should be a for profit industry.”
and
“Yes for a healthcare company to profit they have to deny healthcare. people need to suffer/die/go bankrupt. There is no other way.(you said this to me a few times as if I didnt get taht, I get it that is EXACTLY the problem with outr current system. IT CANNOT work for everyone)
The only way to have it work for everyone is for the government to step in”
and
“The truth is I don’t fault him or the company. that is their job they profit by denying healthcare that is there entire business model. I fault the business model.”
and
“You say it is a business. Yes I get that I don’t blame him. But I think it SHOULDN’T Be a business that is PRECISLEY my point. As I’ve been saying from the beginning. Business leads to morally wrong decisions and outcomes (as you agree). Healthcare as a business doesn’t work.”I don’t understand how you could have missed all these
“The massive salaries that the CEOs make can not pay for all the claims that are denied ”
Lets take one a t a time. Lets start with him, he’s a really nice guy“What part don’t you understand-”
I don’t understand why you keep repeatign this. Yes I know the WHY the ceo makes money. I know how. I dont think he should. I don’t think healthcare should be a for profit industry.
Your response to that has been “well the CEO deserves the profit”. He only deserves the high salary if you think healthcare should be a for profit industry. yes in a for profit healthcare world he desrves high slary. He helped guide thousands of denials! he shortned so man ylives saving the company millions. He definitely deserves his salary. But this is a premise I completely reject (again and again and again)“As mentioned previously, Medicare works because it’s for a more responsible part of the population”
Yes you mentioned that. I dont think you have any real data to bck that up.
And again i’ll bet the extra expense incurred by the young population that ignores there health is much less than the expenses incurred by the elderly that don’t.“When I used to take my kids to the doctor for an ear infection I would make sure to follow the doctors directions and pick up the medication right away-”
you get a gold star!
Some of my patients do some don’t I see no correlation based on their insurance“If they keep paying all the bills (with no cost to the patient) what’s going to discourage someone with a paper cut from going to the emergency room,”
The uninsured already do that . Providing them insurance would ease the pressure on emergency rooms, they can now go to their regular doctor“You need to explain why you think the same US Government could successfully run something of a much larger magnitude.”
Medicare works, here other countries manage. I see no reason why the US can’t manage soemthing similar.
The fact that something else was tried has nothing to do with this .Sure
No premiums. taxes go up. Government pays for health costs.
Easy peasy
Same as medicare just for everybody“I’ve said this point before and you haven’t addressed is so I’m going to repeat again- this is mostly due to the irresponsible culture here of people not caring about their health or taking responsibility for their wellbeing.”
I am nto sure what there is to address. But I’ll repeat it again so encourage people to care about their health.
“You still haven’t explained how a company will survive with a low paid CEO.”
for the 21st? Time they shouldn’t survive. that is my plan.
How on earth are you still not getting this?Take one day’s worth of the Ceo’s salary use it to pay my neighbor’s cancer treatment for 2 years (10,000 a month), the ceo will barely notice the missing money its not even a rounding wrror. And neighbor gets to live a few more years . I know I know “no sane person” would expect insurance company to shell out money just to gain few years (The rep practically told him that too) . and leshitascha I can’t blame them they have to make profit.
“CMS isn’t a private company- it’s a government agency.”
YES!!!! Exactly. so it can be done.
” typical company that acted like that would be out of business within a year…”
This is incorrect Medicare is very popular.
and by far the easiest company to deal with.“Obviously the shareholders and board which determines his compensation felt that that’s what he’s worth. If you feel that he’s overpaid start a mutual, not-for-profit company that’s owned by the policy holders, become the low paid CEO, pay all claims, charge lower premiums and if you can stay in business you can put them out of business- that’ll show them.”
what ? Seriously, What?
“CAN NOT work until people start taking more responsibility for their health. Can you please respond to that directly?”
Again?
Sure. so encourage people to take more responsibility. You got me. I’m in.“Uh- there was- the comparison to the public school that I just repeated again. Please explain why it’ll be different”
Sure.
firstly Medicare works so no reason to compare to ecucation which is less similar.
Second all the government will be doing is paying the bills. The Government is nt running anything You still go to your doctor and instead of him billing aetna he bills medicare. Just like he’ll do when you are 65 just does it earlier
And I’m not sure how you think private medical insurance makes sure their clients are listening to doctors any more than Medicare does. In fact Medicare (escpecially with dialysis) is MORE data driven deducting pay certain medical benchmarks arent made (like keeping hemoglobin in certain range, keeping out of hospital etc)“”You’re going to have to defend the ACA if you’re insisting that the government can come up with a single player system that’ll work after they failed miserably on something of a much smaller scale.”
I dont understand this.
I support one idea, why do I “have to” defend a different idea ?” Please explain though why any sane person (not in an extreme situation) would want to pay more for a lower quality healthcare system?”
I am advocating paying less for a higher quality system.
By any Benchmark the US pays MORE for healthcare. By most benchmarks we have worse outcomes.“The reason why we’re the only nation where this regularly happens is because we’re the only nation where it’s ingrained in people’s culture that life (their own or others) has little to no value. Change that culture and the number of mass shootings will go down.”
YES!!!!
complete agreement!
Same for healthcare. “Hey it works for me who cares about those it doesnt work for, that is just a necessary evil” (almost a verbatim quote)“At this point I’m getting pretty frustrated with this discussion”
same
1. … Can you show me (or explain how it’s possible) a health insurance company (public or private) that functions with a low paid CEO?
As I said (20 times?) I don’t think health insurance should be a for profit industry. So while you keep repeating this point over and over. It has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand . Ok so CEO wont be filthy rich. I’m fine with using that extra $$$ to approve more cancer treatments.
You say there is no CEO of a healthcare company that gets a reasonable salary. Yes I know, THAT is the problem The problem IS that health insurance IS a for profit venture. Yes Its hard to find a reasonably paid CEO, that is EXACTLY the problem. Have I really not said this ????But if you insist as far as I can tell Chiquita Brooks-Lasure the head of CMS (center for medicare and medicaid services) makes $249,723. In contrast Cigna CEO David Cordani took home more than $91 million in 2021 thats more than 364 times as much!!! put another way, he made her salary every single day of the year minus his birthday.
2. I opined that until people learn to take responsibility for themselves a…. Can you please explain why you disagree with that?
As I said over a month ago (February 2, 2023 5:35 pm) that is a technicality. If you want to increase taxes on smoking /sugary drinks etc to encourage good behavior. sure I can get on board. You want some sort of mandatory exercise program, I’m a bit squeamish but ok if thats what it takes I’m in
” and you don’t respond to many of the strong points that I make.”
My apologies I missed all of your “strong points”
Do you mind repeating themThere were no points in this last post that were strong nor that I didn’t previously reply to
“(I’m not familiar with kidney dialysis but does Mediare actually pay for all their expenses?)”
Yes!!!
IT is the one disease if a person gets it they automatically get government funded health insurance (after a waiting period)
Can thank Nixon ofr that of all people.
” Why aren’t you going to defend it [ACA]? If the government failed catastrophically at the ACA, why do you think they’re going to succeed at something that’s going to be much larger?… The last time they tried this (i.e. the ACA), they failed miserably.”
I’m not defending ACA because that is not my proposal. A single payer system was proposed but quickly shot down.
“I’m in the first category (as well as probably every sane person in the country who currently has health insurance)”
That hasn’t been my experience.
Most people I talk to who have had a medical expense (Cancer treatment denied, procedure denied both in the past week) do not think this is working. They are sane people, but whereas you “sympathize with them and wish something can be done” I know that something can be doneYou remind me of the Onion article that runs after every mass shooting “”‘No Way to Prevent This’, Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens”
I can hear it:
“No way to fix this says only country where medical bills is leading cause of bankruptcy” !
And “we have the best healthcare system in the world says the country with highest healthcare expenditure and lowest life expectancy of (almost) any western country”To sum up
Yes for a healthcare company to profit they have to deny healthcare. people need to suffer/die/go bankrupt. There is no other way.
(you said this to me a few times as if I didnt get taht, I get it that is EXACTLY the problem with outr current system. IT CANNOT work for everyone)
The only way to have it work for everyone is for the government to step in.
There are 2 reasons I can think of why someone would oppsoe this
1) Dont think it would work
2) don;t think governemtn should be involved even if would work.1- I don’t fully get. so make it work. It works for Medicare it works in other countries. It works for dialysis patients expand it to cancer expand the age for medicare.
2 I hear thats where we disagree(note this is what I said from my early post to you THIS is the point of argument
“If you maintain that it isn’t the Government’s job to get involved whether you worked out and saved (Mr A.) or didn’t (Mr. B) I understand that. I disagree (as to most people Even Trump running as a Republican promised to provide “the best healthcare plan” and Medicare is wildly popular )”
the rest eg do healthcare CEO’s make too much is fluff)
“It’s too late for that- health insurance companies have already been started, are going strong and are here to stay.”
Meh when there is a wil lthere is a way
“Sounds good to me, go find another way- one that’ll work though. Just because something isn’t functioning 100% doesn’t mean that you get rid of it for something that has a 0% chance of succeeding.”
Medicare already exists, its popular it works
all we need to do is expand it. We can lower age to 55 then 45 etc etcThe government tried that already with the COOPs (part of the ACA). … ”
I’m not defending the ACe, mentioned that earleir .“Again, just because the system isn’t functioning 100% of the time for 100% of the people- doesn’t mean that you get rid of it for something that has no chance of working.”
Again Medicare works. Other countries manage. We can do it! don;t give up so easily We are the best USA USA ! We put a man on the moon! We can do anything! Murica!!!
“disagree completely”
It would help if you would let me know what part of my comment you’re disagreeing on.Do you disagree that high paid CEOs are needed for health insurance companies to function?
YesIf you think it’s possible, go ahead and start a company that pays all claims- let’s see how long it lasts.
It wont last. I ve said this several times. for profit healthcare system CANNOT work. By design to profit they HAVE to deny care. people have to needlessly die/suffer. You said this.
now if you say the benmefit outweigh that. fien I hear. I disagree but Ihear.
But then you miz up your messages and tell me that healthcare companies need to make a profit.
YEs that is YOUR position not mine. I have said that a few times. I am not sure wh yyou keep repeating that.“Yes becasue of what yyou addmitted was “as unfortunate as it may be” If it is unfortunate, change it! It doesnt HAVE to be this way. We chose this.”
(Is kipped the next few paragrpahs since we are repeating a lot)
“YES! that is where we disagree. As I said from one of my first posts”
Finally! We agree on what we disagree on.No Not finally.
I said that from the begining when I pointed out that you hypothetical was illy.I knew this is where we disagreed. You insisted on a long back and forth. Ive had this conversation before this is where it lands . Thats why I started here .
Square
It isnt nice to gather up every silly thing some fellow has written and post them all here to embarrass him.
2scents
Agree Doctors should
Thats what I meant by “who should “win” when the patient and doctor disagree is a good question and one that potentially needs to be worked out” If patient wants a scan “just to be safe” but doctor doesnt think its necessary I think it shouldn’t be paid for by taxpayer“However, it’s important to realize that insurance companies may not be obligated to cover the cost of these treatments. Since their primary objective is to remain profitable and sustainable, they may reject claims and requests that may be seen as not necessary in order to reduce costs.c
Yes I realize that. I’ve said thst a few times. Thst is EXACTLY the problem putting profit above patient care
“In that world, there are often significant wait times for tests, and appointments can be months away.”
1. In my world I have that too
2. Waiting for a test thst will happen (ie get paid for) is better than an immediate test thst won’t happen (ie get paid for).(Its easy to say if so important just pay for it for many that’s not an option)
2scents
for sure I do it all the time.
I don’t think its a good system. that was all I was saying.“– In terms of payment or patient autonomy?”
I guess both. I’m saying if a Doctor thinks patient would benefit from a drug/scan etc the doctor should be able to prescribe it and the patietn get it.
I do not think a bureaucrat , RN etc should be able to deny treatment (I have a colleague who when on a peer to peer call, if the Insurance company says they do not think test or whatever is indicated, he asks them their name and if they are licensed to practice in NY, he explains he is putting them in the chart as a consultant who advised that the test is not necessary, he claims this always works). what I imagine is a world where if a doctor orders a test it is done and paid for. what I am less certain about is if doctor doesn’t think its indicated If by the book or guidelines Pt doesn’t need antibiotics Scan etc. but the patient begs so Its prescribed it anyway . In my perfect world should we all pay for that? I’m not sure. But this is a minor point I just threw in as an after thought2scents
Tried
a. didn’t work He had no symptoms.
IVe since hinted to patients to exaggerate their symptoms, Its easy to get a CT scan in ED, though I hope you appreciate the absurdity of this suggestion, Lie, commit insurance fraud to get Health care you have paid for alreadyb. It was more than 500, and no they didn’t have that much lying around. Though perhaps I should have pushed harder. Renal cell carcinoma does not tend to Grow quickly I was optomistic that they would eventually agree to pay for the scan (as they did). Maybe I should have told him to just pay and figth later to get reimbursed. I doubt it would have changed anything (as I mentioned earleir) but it is something I think about
C. Ultrasound was equivocal
CA
no its better for doctors and/or the patients to decideDrP
“We seem to agree that CEOs make lots of money in their positions and that high paid CEOs are needed for the health insurance companies to function.”
disagree completely” We also agree that (as unfortunate as it may be) CEOs (and companies) need to either be aggressive in denying claims (lawfully or unlawfully) to keep premiums down or they’ll either go bankrupt or put out of business by the competition. (It’s wrong, I know, but that’s the only way it can function.) ”
Agree but while you view that as a feature. To me hat is a bug. In other words yes That is the way it has to be to function this way. My reply is: It cant be that way there fore it shouldnt function this way. we need a new system. Period.
” We finally seem to agree that a physician should be doing everything for the best interest of a patient and setting aside how his / her decision will affect the bottom line of the company.”
Not sure that was ever in dispute. Though this seems to contradict your previous statement “…CEOs (and companies) need to either be aggressive in denying claims…”“What we seem to disagree on is who should be running the healthcare in this country.”
Yes becasue of what yyou addmitted was “as unfortunate as it may be” If it is unfortunate, change it! It doesnt HAVE to be this way. We chose this.
“Despite all the problems going on with corporations running healthcare as a business I still think it’s the lesser of the two evils. Just because there are decisions that are being made that are morally wrong doesn’t mean the alternative is better.”
YES! that is where we disagree. As I said from one of my first posts
Dr P longer response is pending
My reply to this paragraph is hard to follow so I’ll reword it
“We also agree that (as unfortunate as it may be) CEOs (and companies) need to either be aggressive in denying claims (lawfully or unlawfully) to keep premiums down or they’ll either go bankrupt or put out of business by the competition. (It’s wrong, I know, but that’s the only way it can function.) ”
Depends what we mean by agree. Put another way it depends on starting point . Yes for Insurance companies to make a profit They have to deny claims. I a gree with that. We both agree that this is an “unfortunate” situation.
You say too bad “that’s the only way it can function”
I say denying healthcare is a non starter if thats the only way it can function, then we need a different way. Period If that means Insurance will no longer be the lucrative field it is (one that MADE money during a pandemic!!!) and instead we a need a non-for profit system or Government run Ok so be it. But denying healthcare a patient and or doctor* deems neccesary is a non-starter for me* who should “win” when the patient and doctor disagree is a good question and one that potentially needs to be worked out. I’m not certain myself. but I am sure it shouldnt be a bureaucrat or nurse who glanced a t the chart
“In other words, Jean-Paul Sartre stated that anti-Semitism is NOT based on logic!”
I dont understand the point of this thread.
did you think there was some logic to anti-semitism?
Do you think an Anti-semite will say “Oh wait I didnt realize a “highly-respected” philosphper said my views were illogical; I guess Jews are ok after all”
I dont really get it
RE
I give up. How many?
1) I have never heard it with a cholam, maybe a sh’va na
2) “travesty” might be a bit much. its a song, I don’t hink there is any halachic requirment or even hiddur to pronounce the words correctly.
3) If the vowelezation bothers you wait until you find out the passuk doesnt say “Venahapach venahapahc venahapach venahapach venapachu hu…”complaining that there is nothing new is also something that gets rehashed again and again
spot
I assume you were talking to mentsch. while what he said was “so patently false” he was being sarcastic. He doesn’t really mean that this content if the height of maturity and not attention thinking.
Avira didnt say anything remotely false
Shimon
why would that be a question?
Why not?
Magen Avraham, Mishna Berura say drink is ok – obviously as one minOnly organisms and even them only organisms that are visible when born.
Gemra says it is mutar to kill a kinah on shabbos since it isnt born. Rishonim (eg Rashi) explain to mean they spontaneously generate though today the common interpretation is that as far as the eye can see (without microscopic aide) they seem spontaneously generate.
But certainly there is no issur to spray lysol although it is killing organisms or take antibiotics (as far as netilas neshama goes)“Since when is a rebbi off duty from being appropriate?”
Never!
Drinking on Purim though is not inappropriate. In fact it is entirely appropriate
Momma
you ask “Are you speaking of ALL Rabbeim? Do you know ALL Rabbeim???”
I completely agree with Avira.
While obviously he and I do not know “all Rabbeim” Ive visited enough on Purim (and I dont think Ive gone to the same yeshivos as Avira) . NEVER have any of the Rabbeim exhibited any unwanted behavior.
you ask “Imagine if you showed up to school drunk as a skunk? ” This is silly. surely you are familiar with Shlomo’ Hamelech’s L’kaol Zeman va’es Imagine if Rebbe showed up to yeshiva wearing slippers and then sat on the floor? Yet On Tisha’s baav that is what he does. There is a time for everything, yes being drunk on a random tuesday in school is very very inappropriate (bit of an understatement) , that has nothing to do wit h anything.What is a problem is underage drinking particularly when it gets out of hand. A teenager getting a shot from this Rebe and then a shot from that Rebbe. That can become a problem. But as for the Rabbeim themselves you are simply misinformed
UJM
I was literally going to say the same exact thing (though perhaps with a few typos)
SR
“Just because someone is married, that does not prove that he or she is “an expert”.”
for sure true. but that has nothing to dio with anything.
It would be weird for someone poor to give advice “how to become a millionaire” does that mean that EVERY millionaire can give such advice? Of course not some got lucky .
similarly it is weird for a old single bitter gut to give advice “how to get married” does that mean every married person has to what to offer on the subject? OF course not
Square
oy you have a low bar for “accomplishment”
Writing articles online? starting websites?You list as an accomplishment writing a book ” “How to Not Get Married: Break these rules and you have a chance”.” nu, so did the book work did he follow his advice?
now this point is better.
“Its hard to imagine an person with intelligence.”
Lol thats an admittedly funny “sentence”
MDG
I get that but it quickly turns into a long screed, with barely a coherent point.
Shidduch resumes are just a way to keep basic information about individuals straight. Nothing more nothing less. It is not reasonable to expect shadchanim to memorize where everyone who contacted them went to Yeshiva/seminary not to mention their phone numbers. So they are written down. that’s it . That’s all it is.
you don’t like it and want to only use people who know that stuff about you? no problem go for it. n o need to write over 3000 words about it.incidentally this was written in 2018. Presumably he followed his advice and got rid of his resume. did it help?
did A chatbot write this?
Its hard to imagine an person with intelligence.
I especially like complaining that we have shidduch resumes, but also that they are too short
Dr P
The bottom line is I don;t think free market could or should be in charge of healthcare
We have touched on many reasons here are a few:
1) Healthcare is largely not driven by supply and demand
2) The information asymmetry is close to insurmountable
3) When its an emergency you cant exactly price shop
4) Having a business decide who lives and who dies Is as you said “wrong, I agree”So If not the private sector who should run it?
t o that I say it should be the government.The response to that is one of two things:
A – Thats not the government’s role
B- A government run system wopuldnt workTo A I reply hear, I disagree but if you dont view it as the governments role. You favor “limited government” therefore havign a business run it even if it doesnt work because of the reaosns outlined above but “that’s how it needs to be ” I hear completely. disagree, but hear (though be prepared to explain why you give the government other roles like paying for education, roads defense etc I’m not saying you cant provide a difference you just need one)
To B my reply is well Private sector doesn’t work either. so lets make the government system work .
“This is morally wrong but he’s a businessman and makes business decisions. Had he approved all of the claims that were denied the company would either have gone out of business or had to raise premiums much higher than the competition and then gone out of business the next year. It’s wrong, I agree- but that’s how it needs to be in order for it to work.”
YES!!!!!
Though where we differ is if it is “morally wrong” as you agree then lets change it.
It doesnt “need to be” this way. Youve been tricked. It could and should be different.You say it is a business. Yes I get that I don’t blame him. But I think it SHOULDN’T Be a business that is PRECISLEY my point. As I’ve been saying from the beginning. Business leads to morally wrong decisions and outcomes (as you agree). Healthcare as a business doesn’t work.
The way you feel about the Physician who is doing his job same as the CEO. IS how I feel about both of them. Both of them are doing their jobs. Their job is to deny healthcare to people who need it .
“As I mentioned earlier, they cannot raise premiums at their whim and 80% or 85% of premiums must go to providers, any additional premiums collected are returned.”
Percentage alone isnt everything
The Ceo’s and Presidents of insurance companies get paid multiple millions of dollars At one Point Mark Bertoloni received almost 28 million dollars in one year. while running a company that denies claims that could have saved lives. That year I had spent months trying to get a CT scan approved for a patient wit ha suspicious lesion. Renal cell carcinoma is essentially curable if caught early enough before it spreads. by the time it was approved it had spread. (Admittedly there is no way to know for sure if it spread during that delay). The patient is dead now. the few thousand dollars his company should have spent in timely error is a rounding error in his salary. This is but one story I have dozens my colleagues have more.
The truth is I don’t fault him or the company. that is their job they profit by denying healthcare that is there entire business model. I fault the business model.
“As far as the story you mentioned is concerned- I hope that’s the exception and not the norm”
Thanks for reading it.
What I was most outraged about whas the physician who just rubber stamps what nurse had previously denied. what is the poitn of having a physician reviewer if he isnt actually reviewing it?You say you hope its the exception . It is a lot of exceptions close enough to being the norm . It is their business model . Yes they have t pay 85% that still leaves millions and million and millions for their top executives .
DrP
I’d like to apologize for accusing you of lying I did not mean to.
allow me to explain what I meant by backtracking.
With a lot of these “hot button” issues I think the main neukdas hamachlokes gets ignored in favor of more emotinal “fluff” points.
A great example of this is abortion. People get up in extreme cases of incest rape life in danger etc etc. The MAIN question is is fetus a life. Once that is settled most other points fall into place . Yet that point is often ignored, and peopel tend to jump to the extreme cases to make their point.wit hhealthcare the MAIN question in my opinion is what is the government’s role. Once that is settled we can discusss ways to make sure noone takes advantage. but the startign point is there. T ostart with a n extrem example of forcing Mr A to pay for Mr B is silly, Partly becasue that isnt a suggestion anyone is making and because it avoids the main question.
THAT was my point. (I get that you were intentionally starting with an extreme situation and planning to move it towards your specific situation.I didn’t want to leave yo uhanging so I answered your question that no MR A should not be forced to pay for MR B . you then asked abotu a thusand MR A’s paying for a Thousand Mr B’s
To which I replied (using my starting point) that I think EVERYBODY should pay for EVERYBODY. Even if it means raising taxes. Though a 10,000 tax increase was never going to happen.You said it did happen. But this was misleading. I did not call you a liar, but when yo usaid he did “exactly that” this was a mischaracterization The government under Obamacare DID NOT take over healthcare. They did not adopt what I think they should , a “Medicare for all plan” I have no interest in defending Obamacare. I realize that you were caught up on your specific point (which was about Mr. A and B) , and perhaps I was not clear. for that I apologize.
Before going though, please do read the stroy “UnitedHealthcare Tried to Deny Coverage to a Chronically Ill Patient. He Fought Back, Exposing the Insurer’s Inner Workings”
Its not just that it highlights “a few bad apples” it exposes as the title suggests the inner workings of one of the largest healthinsurance companies. Comlete with audio clips, depostions of the Medical directors who are in charge of denieg care (in this case for one, but generally for hundreds a week!!!)DrP
The only point I said wasn’t true was this
““no politiican would dream of raising taxes that much (for the average worker who didnt get a 10 fold increase in salary .”
Do you recall a former President named Barak Hussein Obama? He did exactly that…”That wasn’t true. He didnt Do “EXACTLY THAT”
As you acknowledged in your post. I didnt say you were a liar, becasue you knew what you were saying, I would characterize it as misleading more than lying. I pointed out that what you were saying was “not true” it wasnt and isnt” from my point of view this thread has run its course”
Yep along time ago“I didn’t read the story you mentioned but I’ll agree with you that there can be some bad apples out there just like there is in any industry, that doesn’t mean that the insurance industry is rotten to the core”
you should read it.
I deal with insurance companies multiple times weekly (more often as a provider) . rotten to the core is an understatement“My point was specifically regarding the catastrophic consequences on hard working families caused by the ACA and I explicitly mentioned that.”
Yes I know. I understand that is your point.
“If you were referring to a different point can I respectfully suggest that you mention that ”
Sure! in one of my first comments to you
here it is:
“To be clear I’m not arguing. I think reasonable people can disagree. Your examples though are designed to bias and not really to inform.
If you maintain that it isn’t the Government’s job to get involved whether you worked out and saved (Mr A.) or didn’t (Mr. B) I understand that. I disagree (as to most people Even Trump running as a Republican promised to provide “the best healthcare plan” and Medicare is wildly popular )
But again I think people can disagree as to the role of government…”I am not talking about ACA specifically
rather about general role of govt.“I feel bad for you, it’s definitely not a good situation, but it seems like this issue is caused by your employer and providers,”
Yep, not just me thats the way it is in this country. My employer chooses my plan #Freedom! And I guess I have high premiums, no its not a frum place. Is there anything I can do about it. Again, not really.
AAQ
“Competition is the “thing” that typically stops suppliers from raising prices. Econ 101.”
Problem is after Econ 101 you need to take more advanced courses.
Many basic tenets of Econ 101 do not apply to healthcare.
Take the most basic tenet, that of supply and demand . In Econ 101 you are taught if strawberries are too expensive then people will stop eating strawberries and buy blueberries forcing the price of Strawberries to come down.
If stents become expensive its not like the demand for them (ie Heart attacks) will go down. Furthermore if someone is having a heart attack they can’t exactly shop around for the cheapest care.
Even if it ISN’t an emergency shopping around is almost impossible,. This experiment has been done. One of the most frequent reasons people go to a hospital is for childbirth. OF course there are occasionally complications, but generlaly the stay is pretty routine and predictable. Furthermore you have a 9 month headstart to plan where to give birth. You would think finding he cheapest place is straightforward. Yet it is near impossible. There was an attempt to chaneg this with the Hospital Price Transparency Law signed by President Trump, but it is still near impossible to find this information.
Furthermore there is a Knowledge discrepancy between you and the healthcare system, underming basic economic principals (which assume a level playing field). Yo ucan easily dewtermine the difference between strawberries and blueberries. IT is much harder to determine the difference between getting a few stents vs bypass surgery
DRp
“Again- you’re purposely totally missing the point.”
no, I’m mising YOUR point. yo uare trying to make this about Obamacare and your specific circumstance (not that I blame you)
reread my comments, I am not discussing Obamacare.“Complain to your employer if they keep switching insurers or complain to your doctor if he / she isn’t in enough networks…”
I did but they don’t care. and there is not much I cna do about it other than quit. and a system where you have to quit to keep your doctor is even crzier than finding a new doctor in my opinion.
“Yes, that would get me on board.”
Great We agree then!
Medicare for all!!! Huzzah“If you can’t afford a chasunah, you should not be in shidduchim.”
It is impossible to beleive that a ben Avraham V’Yitzchak could say something so insane..
To say you shouldnt have a chasuna ie just get married in shul with a minyan is one thing (it would be wrong but not crazy) .
But not to be involved in shiddduchim ??? impossible that a frum Jew could suggest such a thing“but my health insurance costs skyrocketed by around $10,000 a year.”
Yes health insurance companies are greedy. I hate them too. Not sure why you blame that on Obama.
If you dont mind my asking what was the change in benefits? Why dd it go up so much?
“Do you recall a former President named Barak Hussein Obama? He did exactly that. It may not have been in income tax or sales tax but it was a forced tax on the hard working makers to pay the premiums for the lazy takers and yes, my salary remained relatively the same but my health insurance costs skyrocketed by around $10,000 a year.”
This is not true
The increase in tax was $695 that is ti . And it ONLY applied if you dindnt have health insurance .“Once you don’t get insurance through your employer you’re not in that same group anymore.”
right , a complelty insane system. so if I change jobs I may need a new doctor. If my employer gets a better deal I and chanegs companies I may need a new doctor it is crazy.
what on Earth does my insirance have to do with my employer“I’ll mention again what I’ve been writing all along. The government should be involved in health care … Not for lazy people who want society to do everything for them.”
Yes youve said that the problem is it isnt the just the “lazy” who get cancer . Read the recent Propublica story “UnitedHealthcare Tried to Deny Coverage to a Chronically Ill Patient. He Fought Back, Exposing the Insurer’s Inner Workings.” The fellow involved doesnt sound lazy.“Again, this will not work until people start taking responsibility for themselves and the ratio of avoidable medical expenses to unavoidable expenses gets flipped.”
and Again if it got you on board, Id support increased oversight on halthier diet/excerices increased regulations on smoking etc“There’s got to be a line drawn here as well. …Where do you draw the line?”
oh fur sure theres a line.
Though probably more of a percentage than a real number. MEaning
If a person makes 100,000 one year then 1,000,000 then next year yes his taxes should go up by > 100,000.you say “How about $10,000 – Possibly. How about $100,000 Definitely not…”
no politiican would dream of raising taxes that much (for the average worker who didnt get a 10 fold increase in salary .However as I mentioned before there is an easy solution
I pay > 11K in premiums my boss pays the same
My boss pays me that money I sto ppaing private company. My taxes go up by 20K I pocket the remaining `3 K win win winAgain. I f you dont think the government should be involved in health care this comment is crazy. As I said that is the starting point
…”the money needs to come from somewhere and we seem to disagree on where it should come from”
Exactly s Ive been saying I think it should be government run with the money coming from taxes, think of an expanded medicare
DrP
“Next question- could the government collect to the extent that a hard working family would lose their house?”
I have a pending answer
to be clear, this isn’t limited to Healthcare
The Government can raise taxes for los of things that fall into their purview. If the government feels they need to raise taxes to better arm Ukraine, even if I don’t care about Ukraine they can do that.
Same thing here IF (big IF, as I said this is THE key to all the other questions) it is the governments role to fund healthcare for all. then they can raise taxes even if an overextended few may lose their houses“Next question- could the government collect to the extent that a hard working family would lose their house?”
No
Though taxes will go up if as a result of that Their mortgage is too expensive then I guess yes.
Of course some would argue that Having gotten a mortgage that leaves Them so vulnerable to a tax increase is irresponsible behavior what we would expect from Mr. B not A. nonetheless even though some would call him irresponsible I still think he should have access to affordable health careDrP
Glad to hear things are doing better
To answer your question
Yes without question We should collect from the A’s (and the B’s) to fund the healthcare of the B’s (and the A’s).The reason for this is I don’t think there is any realistic way to ensure the B’s behave. Nor is there a real way to sepperate health costs based on “irresponsible choices” vs “bad luck” That said, As I mentioned I could be convinced to have more government oversight on behavior to ensure the B’s “behave” perhaps some financial penalty for smoking, not excercising , eating too much meat etc etc .
I cant say I love it, but if this would get you on board I’m in. Is that your suggestion?
DrP
first I’m sorry to hear about your hardship. ACA ws a while go, I hope things have improved .
I still think you are approaching this backwards. As I think the more FUNDAMENTAL question is one on the role of government. But Of course you can approach it the other way as well.
to answer your question, no, no one specific person whould be forced to support another specific person.
What was the next question going to be?
DRP
“..to admit that there are times when the govermnent shouldn’t step in (i.e. when Mr. A and his family would suffer the loss of their house and savings due to the shear utter irresponsibility of Mr. B).”
I don’t think anyone here has ever suggested anything like that. that you needed them to “admit” they wouldn’t support that. T ohave one neighbor “chosen” to sponsor his neighbor ? Thats a made up thing that doesnt happen in any socity and I dont think has ever ben seriously suggested to happen
UJM
Azoi vi di Rebbe hut geteichet: Ut bin ich greit!
DP
“I agree that the government is supposed to help the population”
Great so we fundamentally agree.
We can hammer out nitty gritty details another day, if you want the Government to deter people from smoking, deter people who don’t exercise or eat too much red meat, I can get behind that. It makes me a bit squeamish (I love government oversight but even I have my limits) but if that ‘s what it takes to get you on board, I can get behind increased government oversight on diet/exercise etcUJM
The post is what can be learnt from THIS scenario
“Huh? The child was already safe and sound with the mother before she called Shomrim and the police.”
Exactly thus my bringing up a what if is silly.
And in this case the accused abuser was already set free. Thus your bringing up the “what if..” is equally silly. IT was a crowded room there were witnesses. The system worked.
Again, does it always work? perhaps not. But THIS is a case where it did. This post is lessons learnt from THIS case. Not the collected musings of the artist formerly known as Joseph. THIS case is one that highlights going to the police first is the safest approach. Again is there another case that shows the opposite ? Probably but not this oneAnd what’s this business about you deciding not to ask a Rov since “the Rav didnt care”? You do things, in general, without asking since you don’t trust Rabbonim?”
If I don’t have a question of course! Why not?
AAQ
Happy to help
Explain to your kid that society needs certain things to function. roads is an easy example that he can see. We all need roads, to get to school, work fun places. Even someone how doesn’t have a car needs roads for the bus that he takes.
Even someone who says I’ll never take busses still needs roads for deliveries to his local store, and of course for emergencies like fire department.so how should we pay for roads? We can’t just hope everyone will on their own understand this. Many have trouble with this simple concept. so we have the government in charge they collect taxes from everybody and use that money to pay for things that we all need including roads.
S oalthough it feels free to use roads, they do in fact cost money, this is a cost that is paid by all of us
where it gets a little trickier is what “jobs” fall into the governments purview.
Many believe healthcare is such a thing. Just like we all pay taxes to be used for roads that we as a society need, regardless of how much you personally use the road. Same thing for healthcare we all pay taxes to fund healthcare that we as a society need.now before you get nervous that this would cause taxes to go up by a lot, keep in mind we already pay a ton for healthcare it isn’t “free” I pay 11,000 in premiums my employer (boss) pays the same for me. My taxes could go up by a bit over 20,000 dollars and I’d still end up ahead
hope this helps, Once your kid gets it have him explain it to you.