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“Obviously he shouldn’t have due to negia. ”
He held it wasnt derech chiba
“the video doesn’t show what she did before this clip starts.”
Ah, but it does show what they did before the clip starts namely block traffic.
And it makes it hard to justify their argument that they cant join the army since they sit and learn. If they have time to play in the street they have time to perform some form of civil serviceSholomBenYosef
Thanks for providing details. Obviously my general post doesnt necessarily apply to your case (in spite of some forced conclusions drawn by others) You arent really discussing abandoning your family’s mesora, rather are discussing abandoning one adopted by your father.
Though I would like to point out in regards to “but surely the Rashi/Rosh/MahaRam etc knew what they were talking about… ”
Of course they do! However they often argue so how do you decide whom to follow? Which is why MEsora is so important if people are free to choose any conclusion they want based on their own research /whim much of yidishkeit falls apartZD is right
Toasting a fresh bagel defeats the purpose! it is baal tashchis
If your going to toast get a bagguette or bialy or some other garbage. The beauty of a bagel is the texture which gets ruined by toastingiacisrmma,
There is a shift taking place in which transmission is being passed from parents to Roshei Yeshiva
As long as there is some form of mesora based on roshei yeshiva who are presumably talmidei chachamim , I think yidishekiet will survive (though I agree I dont like it either).It is people deciding on their own based on their own research that I think is dangerous. And can and has led to serious breaches.
Read Haim Soloveitchiks’ excellent “Rupture and reconstruction” for a fantastic piece on the shift taking (that has taken?) place
Toasting a fresh bagel is foolishness.
Though if bagel is day or so old, it may require toasting
(I thought I replied here is the gist again)
“Since it was said in response to the OP’s comment, that is the logical conclusion.”
No, the OP did not give much (any?) details .Which minhgaim? why does he beleive the “ashkenbazi” minhagim are mehudar?
I gave a very superficial, general response to a general question: Generally minhagim shouldnt be abandoned“it was clear that I meant that I don’t have a definite opinion regarding when a person should or should not follow their families’ minhag.”
that is all we are discussing, namely abandoning minhagim. IF you dont have an opinion, you dont have to comment. There is no need to say “Theres nothing wrong with abandoning minhagim, though mesora should be kept, though I dont have an opinion” (not a verbatim quote)
“This is because I don’t think I have a right to have a definite opinion, since it is not something that is a black-and-white halacha”
you have that backwards, if it was black and white halacha THEN you wouldnt have a right to an opinion, I assume youd follow halacha. Only that which is NOT black and white halacha can you have an opinion.
“Again, I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem for someone to not follow their father’s mesorah, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t respect mesorah.”
That might be the definition of not respecting mesora. (though you gave yourself the out, with “necessarily” much as I did)
And as far as halacha, you forgot to mention that depending on which minhagim, he may have to do hataras nedarim.
Look, the point is this: Generally speaking, should a person follow his family’s mesora/minhagim.
Yes or No?
(Again, As I said this isnt absolute, I am asking GENERALLY)“and an implication that one is never allowed to not follow his father’s minhag, even in the OP’s case.”
That is a strange conclusion to draw, as I was careful to point out that there are exceptions.
Did you think I meant if a persons father had a minhag of avoda zara he should continue following “Minhag avosihem beyedeihem”?“L’maaseh, I don’t have a definite opinion on the topic, ”
Nu, so dont comment, there is no law that says you have to comment on every thread particularly if you dont have a “defenite opinion”All I am saying is mesora should be respected and not discarded lightly.
You seem to agree. Great!
(except for this post in which you downplay keeping mesora, (though granted it is all relative)”I was surprised that the idea of changing minhagim was so controversial. …If a family has a very strong mesora, I guess that changing it would be a big deal. But I think that a lot of families don’t…” )I’m also surprised you didnt have the OP follow daas Torah which is usually one of your go to comments
“The big difference is,…”
Yes I understand the difference as I noted above.
Though you highlight my point. clearly groups chnaged over the years. Chassidim is amore recent chnage than the others you mention.
Are you sayiong that when a historian uncovers wh oand when the yekish mesauroh began he cna replace it by the older one?“Any changes in Tefilla or hanhogos in mitzvos which were initiated by the chassidim, were mainly, if not totally, al pi sod (Kabbalistic), and were not practiced by the tzibbur at the time of the rishonim ”
Obviouslyand Any changes in Tefilla or hanhogos in mitzvos which were initiated by the rishonim, were not practiced by the tzibbur at the time of the geonim
and Any changes in Tefilla or hanhogos in mitzvos which were initiated by the geonim, were not practiced by the tzibbur at the time of the Amoraimetc etc
How long does a mesora have to exist before youd feel queezy about chnaging it?
I admit I’m not sure of my answer either.
LU
You seem to change your mind a lot in your posts“I was surprised that the idea of changing minhagim was so controversial.”
and later
“I don’t think anyone’s disagreeing with [but mesora should be respected, and just discarding it is a dangerous game].”
“Obviously he didn’t do it so lightly and did find it a difficult move to make which is why he posted here ”
which is why I never said not to change. I said it was a dangerous game but in extenuating circumstances may be appropriate.
LU
no they are not the same, I definitely did not mena to imply they were. Of course kitniyos is different, the difference is it is older and more codified. Kitniyos is perhaps the oldest minhag we have (and Yom haatzmaut is a worse example)
thats isnt to say it is an absolute rule, their are times were we do make drastic changes or perhaps allow them to happen (as Ive pointed out to you many times.)
but mesora should be respected, and just disacrding it is a dangerous game.I’m genuinly surprised this view of mine is controversial.
iacisrmma
exactly my point.
“Bear in mind that anyone who has chassidish mesorah, it cannot be more than 250 years old”
Every minhag is “only” x number of years old.
With Pesach on the horizon, consider recent annual discussion over Kitniyos. It is only a millenia or so old. Why cant I just revert to earlier minhag (as implied in the gemara) that allowed kitnioyos?
I think changing mesora is dangerous
I believe strongly in following the minhagim of our parents (barring extenuating circumstances). Once we start uprooting MEsora because of what is “better” even if it is in fact better due to historical factors, or new changes in society it is opening pandoraas box
What is the difference between members and participants?
DY
This isnt appropriate distance?
what do you suggest?
I suggested ringing the bell and leaving anote. I dont understand leaving them there
Meno + 1
Syag
“But the HONEST truth is that very very few had a list that ONLY contained people they didn’t touch. Everyone with all these platonic relationships had at least one that wasn’t”
so that is two issurim: the touching, and the friendship see (Igeros Moshe) this thread is not about issurim. IT is about returning lost keys.
“Now i’m being accused of being misguided and over chumradik.”
I didnt mean to accuse you of anything. In fact I pointed out that you did not leave the lights on.
“NOBODY said not to return the keys,”
Feivel sounded that way, though again perhaps I misunderstood
“All feivel said was “you were wise to be cautious””
thats not all he said. He also said
“the picture redleg described is extremely superficial. between a man and a woman the slightest raise of an eyebrow or a hint of a smile can cause an earthquake of emotion in the other person. the next time you saw this boy you would already have begun a relationship. we may not be cognizant of this, but our Chochomim know.”
I admit I’m not sure which chazal he is referring to.
I’, also not sure what he meant by “the picture redleg described is extremely superficial” that seems like a good thing. Keep it superficial.
Again, Apologies if I misunderstood and as a result hijacked this thread
Joseph +1
note: “????” not completely.
“I did not feel comfortable knocking on his door…”
I wouldnt either. And as you say “i have no doubt i would have found another option.” Exactly! but you wouldnt (i hope) just leave his car with headlights on.
“Do I expect this to start a relationship, ch”v? No, I don’t.”
exactly!
what you are doing is adding a geder on top of a geder on top of a geder. Which is not wrong, but it is important to understand.
chazal knew what they were doing they assered yichud, they cautioned “aL TARBEH sicha im isha” They did not say DONT return lost items. The gemara brings the story of Bruriah who was asked “ezeh derech L’Lod” she scolded for not asking more directly “eizeh L’Lod (apologies if I missed a detail but that is the gist) a MINIMAL amount of interaction with members of other gender (directions, returning key, informing regarding lights) is wholly approriate. Arguably treating such benign exchanges as taboos that have know been violated is more dangerous than simply saying “Hi you left your lights on,”
“You know that isn’t what he said”
Unless he was being sarcastic I dont see how else to understand the comment. Im sorry Feivel if I misunderstood.
Someone clearly left keys you return it. Period. I dont understand why this is a question. you dont need to discuss anything but the keys you found. dont go in for coffee, dont discuss the weather
Redleg outlined it pretty well.
At the very least ring the bell and leave
Meno
I totally agree. As Joseph said I f I met a Gentile named “Yehoshua Eliyahu” I would most definitely do a double take, it is clearly not a common practice among Christians to say the least.
Akuperma I did not know that regarding James ,Betty
Thanks for sharing
“It would be disgusting and possibly a huge chilul Hashem to refrain from using those names for the reasons you mentioned.”
Im not sure that I agree.
Bringing karbanos on a bama and davening with arms stretched upwards were both presumably holy practices. Yet we stopped doing them becasue Goyim used it for avadoha zarah. IF they reffered to their deity by a “very holy name from Tanach” I dont think it would be wrong to refrain from using the name certainly when there is no “chiyuV” to use a particular name.
” but our Chochomim know”
Our chochamim told us not to return items lost by members of the opposite gender?
I believe R’ Moshe held a perutah is the smallest amount that has purhcasing pwer. In those days it was said to be a nickel, though perhaps now would be a dime or slightly more
Lol absolutely no argument!
I have this intense feeling of Deja Vu of having used that argument to you!
though perhaps I remember wrong. I’m sorry about that
though http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/2017-1#post-640299
Admittedly thats regarding year which his very different
Joseph
“Aren’t there shittas that Thanksgiving is muttar?”
sure! There is no issuer with “celebrating” Pi day.
I just recall you on several occasions saying there was no significance to a secular date (I cant find where, regarding birthdays? regarding 9/11?)
thus I am surprised that today you celebrate based on the Goyish date.
Joseph
IS it yud daled sivan? Or did you start using the goyish calendar?
LU
“I think we’re talking about a case where you have reason to suspect that you can’t trust the person’s kashrus.
Or that you don’t have a reason to assume that you can.”
These are 2 contradictory statements. The rest of your post is similarly riddled with the same mistake.
eid echad means you can eat other people’s food unless you have a reason not to. “The average Jew in America is not even Frum.” well that is a reason not to. So the line that follows doesnt make sense.
I think it is more kabilistic than halachic
Even chasidim have one hole on the tallis gadol.
does anyone know of any exceptions
Avi
If R’ Moshe wanted to “completely passel R’ Goren as a posek” what would he have to write?
ROB
“To answer your queries,”
I didnt ask any questions in this thread
Avi
Yes obviously they dont mean if R’ Goren said the Beracha on an apple is haetz everybody should make a shehakol..
DY (erlier I thoought it was Joseph) said “It’s not for nothing that the gedolim completely passeled Goren as a posek, including gedolim who otherwise generally stayed away from such controversies, such as R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and R’ Moshe Feinstein.” You said this wasnt true.
I demonstrated conclusively, at least regarding R” Moshe that it is true and pretty strongly regarding R’ Shlomo zalman
Freilichen Purim to you as well
Here’s my question dearest Health
1) do you agree that “Islamic terrorism” Is not necessarily a true representation of Islam?
(note: I am not really asking for your interpretation of Islam, Rather that the idea that all Muslims are automaticly terrorists is not necessarily the case). Earlier yo indicated that you agreed “No one argues on your first line!” but soemtimes you have trouble keeping up with your shifting views.
Avi
1. The letter signed y R’ Moshe in hapardes says “all”
see here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rabbi-shmuly#post-650934
“his pesakim” is obviously not just reffering to “one case” thoug h perhas they meant this and some other unidentified case.
2. Joseph had just mentioned R’ Moseh and R’ shlomo Zalman after you accused him of Motzi shem rah I just wanted to point out that this time he was right. I did not say any one elese dissagreed.
However, once you bring that up. In the same issue of JO Dec 1972 on pg 17 there is a letter signed by among others The stepiler, Rav Shach and Rav elyashiv z” l which says “all his judgements are batul and it is assur to rely on them”
3. Im well familiar with this
4. Ask Joseph
OK now that I’ve answered your question (again)
Your turn it’s a short question in my last post to you.
Focus try your best not to get distracted.
“Did Obama ever say the words Islamic radicalism or Islamic terrorism, or something like this, with only 2 or 3 words together?”
I’ve answered this several times
He (like bush before him) made an effort to avoid the phrase. Was he 100% succesful? I don’t know. he’s not perfect. He may have said it at some point. I can’t find a quote of him saying it so maybe he never said it in keeping with his (and dubya’s) policy.
Regardless of whether he said it or not. His policy was to avoid the term.
Why are you still stuck on this?
I think youll do better if we break it down into bite sized chunks..
simple questions try to keep response as short and to the point as possible and avoid getting sidetracked.
first question
1) do you agree that “Islamic terrorism” Is not necessarily a true representation of Islam?
(note: I am not really asking for your interpretation of Islam, Rather that the idea that all Muslims are automaticly terrorists is not necessarily the case). Earlier yo indicated that you agreed “No one argues on your first line!” but soemtimes you have trouble keeping up with your shifting views.
Health
you are missing the point and avoiding my question.
I did not mean to say bush NEVER used the term “Islamic terrorism” (though you have yet to provide an example where he does) I” grant that he did at some point. My point is Bush made a conscious point of avoiding the term for reason that I (and he) have explained. Obama had the same policy. Ok so Obama was better at sticking to this policy than bush was. what does that prove?
“Did Obama ever say the words Islamic radicalism or Islamic terrorism, or something like this, with only 2 or 3 words together?!?”
He probably did at some point. but he (like bush) tried to avoid it.
“Is that because you think that is no such thing as Islamic terrorism?!?”
Are you being serious right now?
no it is because… never mind see here where I link all the posts where I explain why he avoided the phrase:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-im-not-antisemitic/page/3#post-650815
Though sigh, you seemed to finally understand this point. I said “He specifically says he does not view it as true representation of Islam”
and you said “No one argues on your first line!”
I thought of it as an hour more. Since on the day of Purim the sun will set an hour later, so if you wake up on your old clock (out of habit) you get an extra hour.
(of course the overall time of Purim isnt actually changing and youd lose an hour of sleep)
“I dont live there so I cant say exactly…”
so dont say anything. Is there a law that requires comment if you dont know what you are talkign about?
“You need a letter of authorization from the Vaad of the 5 Towns. Otherwise, people will NOT give.”
I protest this motzei laz. On Purim the haalcha is “kol haposhtin yad nosnin lo” And this is generally practiced to the best of my knowledge. Yes with a letter you’ll get more, but go ahead knock on doors you will get something
Avi
search ” Jewish observer December 1972″
the very first link takes you to that issue on Agudah’s website.
If saying “his findings and decesuions are totoally invalid” or in the Hebrew provided in the link to Hapardes above signed by R’ Moshe “??? ????? ????????? ?????.” isnt disqualifying as a posek, I dont know what would be.
ROB
Joseph, isnt quite right on that point. IF you read the opposition to R’ Goren it stems primarily from critisicm regarding the way it was handled as put excelently by Beninugman.
Nobody claims he was “always” shomer Torah umitzvos ITs not like he was a kotzker chasid, however if he ever was, certainly in the beggining even if he later left, the heter still falls apart
“”Did Obama ever make this sort of distinction?!?””
what? yes every time he avoidied using the phrase he was making that distinction. I dont understand what you are getting at.
For example this was a response to a mom who asked him why he didnt use the phrase
“”There is no doubt, and I’ve said repeatedly, where we see terrorist organizations like al Qaeda or ISIL — They have perverted and distorted and tried to claim the mantle of Islam for an excuse for basically barbarism and death,…But what I have been careful about when I describe these issues is to make sure that we do not lump these murderers into the billion Muslims that exist around the world, including in this country, who are peaceful, who are responsible, who, in this country, are fellow troops and police officers and fire fighters and teachers and neighbors and friends.”
“I looked that up on the internet.”
ah but thanks to me! See thats 2 things youve learnt in this post alone.
and it is free
“No one argues on your first line!”
Earlier yo udid, but I’ll let it slide. youre learning greaT!
now the next step is to answer my question posed before
see here
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-im-not-antisemitic/page/3#post-650843
“He uses the term -“Islamic radicalism; others, militant Jihadism; still others, Islamo-fascism”.”
Lol he doesnt. read the speech he says “some call them…”
but at any rate even if he did on ocassion use the term, What does that have to do with anything
Avi
for the record, it turns out Joseph was right regarding R” Shlomo Zalman as well
” we hereby proclaim that his findings and decisions are totally invalid.”
Printed in JO December 1972 (pg 16)
Available on the Agudah’s website (!!! Ashreinu shezachinu lekach)
Lol health
Have ?I mentioned you are my favorite poster?
ddi you read the speech. It is available online given 10/5/05
Here is the actual quote from the speech you cite “Some call this evil Islamic radicalism; others, militant Jihadism; still others, Islamo-fascism. Whatever it’s called, this ideology is very different from the religion of Islam. This form of radicalism exploits Islam to serve a violent, political vision: the establishment, by terrorism and subversion and insurgency, of a totalitarian empire that denies all political and religious freedom. These extremists distort the idea of jihad into a call for terrorist murder against Christians and Jews and Hindus — and also against Muslims from other traditions, who they regard as heretics”
He specifically says he does not view it as true representation of Islam. And note: he does not use phrase “Islamic Terrorism” that you view as so critical to defeating them.
“Did Obama ever make this sort of distinction?!?”
I’m sorry what distinction?
Also, care to answer my question
thanks
No charge for the info about Dubya BTW.
Avi
“Your comment about Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Moshe is hotzaat shem ra.”
In joseph’s defense at least regarding R’ Moshe it is true
see here:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12319&st=&pgnum=2
My father learnt by R’ Moshe and said he never saw R’ Moshe as upset as during that time
“Which George Bush and quote him…”
dubya.
google it or for 2 million dollars i’ll tell you
…
Nah just kidding! I love imparting wisdom
Besides, I already provided a quote
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-im-not-antisemitic/page/2#post-650087
“I already told you – that has nothing to do with this topic!”
1) you did tell m that but like 99% of the things you said it is false. It is an example of avoiding labeling groups of people based on the actions of soem adherents.
did you really not understand the relevence?
2) Most of what you have replied in this thread was more and more off topic (the rest was repeating questions that I addressed several times). This is closer to our current topic (not labeling groups with labels they find offensive) Than how you “responded” to Trump’s inability to answer simple questions (hmmm sound familliar?) by mentioning Obama’s poor handling of terrorism
“Nowhere did you write what Obama said himself!”
Yep I did (though I didnt quote his exact words) the idea is the same.
“does Obama’s statement make any sense?!?”
Yes. and for the record George Bush had a similar policy didi it make sense then?.
I even asked you a question/offered an example to help explain it to you
Here it is again:
“Growing up several rebbeim taught that it was a mitzvah to avoid paying taxes. They explained how the Western world was built on “geganvet yidisheh gelt” and whatever taxes we avoided paying was simply “geratavet yidshe gelt” of course they cautioned us to make sure we would never get caught.
Assuming you view this “shitah” as an inaccurate portrayal of yidishkeit. How would you feel if when a person who had this view was arrested it was labeled “Jewish-tax-evasion” ?
“How do I find out if this is true?”
Repeat it enough, it becomes true.
Much like some of these stories
” One of the problems the Gedolim have with the date is the fact that it’s in Nissan when we are not allowed to mourn”
thats a pretend reason
If you think long and hard you will come up with a mourning period that takes place during Nissan commemorated by many members of Klal yisroel that lasts 33 day…
The real reason is WTP’s reason above. furthermore it is meant to lead in to yom ha’atzmaout which occurs a week later as a sort of Galus/geula contrast whcih of course the charedi world opposes.
“No, it doesn’t!
For all you know, the US had a personal problem with ISIS.”
Fantastic point! I do recall what A Bully ISIS was to the US in grade school
Serious question: Do you believe the things you write?
“Why did Obama and the rest of the DemonCrats have a problem saying this?!?”
Replied:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-im-not-antisemitic/page/2#post-649476
Among several others