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From the best I can recall, I believe it has something to do with Chazal referring to lice in a halachic sense, and some people asking the question assuming they were referring to it in a scientific sense.
But what does that mean?
How are lice in the “halachic sense” different than lice in the “scientific sense?”
The Wolf
So, qa, what *is* the answer? How were they not wrong if they say that lice don’t come from eggs?
The Wolf
QA,
You’re missing the point here.
Chazal say that lice do not come from eggs.
However, we have actually seen lice come from eggs. This isn’t “theory” or “wishful thinking.” It has actually been observed.
That being the case, if you’re positing that one day Chazal will be proven correct, how will you explain all the observations that we have of lice actually hatching from eggs?
The Wolf
Rav Breil said it is certain that the rabbinic science is more accurate than the science of the scientists, and even if currently it appears one way, the rabbinic view will eventually be proven correct.
Volvie,
I’m curious how you reconcile this with areas where we *know* Chazal to have been wrong. The prime example, I suppose, is lice. Chazal say they don’t come from eggs, but lice has been observed to come from eggs. If, at some future point, Chazal are proven to be correct, how does that explain the observations that we have seen that lice do, in fact, come from eggs?
The Wolf
there is no point in “celebrating” mother’s day. do it on her birthday. this is totally chukas hagoy and has absolutely no meaning
What if it means something to her? Mother’s Day means something to my mother, and I made sure to see her (even though I see her quite often since she only lives two blocks from me).
Likewise, I know that Father’s Day means something to my father – and as such, even though I see him regularly during the year (he lives quite a bit further away than my mother does), I will make it a point to drive out and see him on Father’s Day.
The Wolf
Oomis,
Well said. I couldn’t agree more.
The Wolf
In my opinion there are 3 American holidays that Jews should observe: THanksgiving, Mother’s DAy, and FAther’s Day.
Grada,
Is there any reason your list did not include Independence Day, Memorial Day and Veterans Day?
I would think that we should have a great deal of HaKaras HaTov for the opportunity that we have here in the United States to live our lives according to the dictates of the Torah as, perhaps, never before in the long history of our exile.
And, likewise, I would think you would want to honor those who died to help secure that freedom for you and honor those living veterans who have worked towards those same goals.
The Wolf
Chazal recognized that it would not be healthy for us to be in constant state of mourning throughout the year and therefore designated a small period of time during which to express mourning (and many hold that they also confined all future communal mourning to be observed during this period). They established a specific day (or weeks, as it were) only to limit our mourning to a healthy amount of time.
Fine. Substitute Torah Learning and Shavous — Yom Kippur and repentence — Pesach and remembering the Exodus.
Same questions apply.
The Wolf
Many schools work with graduates to help with placement. Have you tried the alumni affairs office of your school?
The Wolf
Volvie,
Putting aside the Torah/Science issue (which I didn’t really want to get into anyway) perhaps we can get back to the subject at hand – Mother’s Day.
Specifically, I refer you back to the previous question…
You said:
You need to take your proverbial head out of the golus sand to see the light.
And I responded:
How is it that having a “Mother’s Day” is an excuse to “kick your mother to the curb” the other days of the year, but having Tisha B’Av is not an excuse to “kick mourning for the loss of the Bais HaMikdash to the curb?”
I await your reply.
The Wolf
Volvie,
So, once again, I ask you…
If Chazal tell us that treatments that will work on a non-Jew may not work on a Jew (or vice versa), do you make sure that your doctor knows this and only prescribes the treatments that work on Jews? Does he prescribe different treatments for Jews and non-Jews?
If (God forbid) you need to go to the ER, will you make sure to get a doctor who will give you the “right” treatment, rather than the one they learned in medical school for everyone else? Do you believe that Jews have died in ERs around the country solely because they were given medical treatments that would have otherwise worked on non-Jews?
Does you pharmacist believe that medications he prescribes for non-Jews might be harmful to you? Does your dentist?
The Wolf
and what if I’m looking for a position in Chinuch?
Ah, but you did not specify. There may not be corporate recruiters for Chinuch.
The Wolf
What you’re looking for is a headhunter. There are corporate recruiters in many fields who will match you with jobs for a fee (which is paid by the company, not the job searcher).
The Wolf
Wouldn’t 4 & 5 potentially run into the problem of Maris Ayin?
Depends where. A McD located in a rest stop on the New Jersey Turnpike, for example, may not be a problem as many people just sit at the tables to take a rest from driving even without buying anything (and it’s well known that this is the case).
The Wolf
BP,
Again, having one day set aside as special doesn’t detract from any other day… just as having Tisha B’Av set aside for mourning the loss of the Bais HaMikdash doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t observe it other days as well.
The Wolf
Parents like myself are pretty much forced
No one forces you to do anything.
The Wolf
the sale we have the combined weight of the Gemorah, the Chasam Sofer, and Rav Elyashev shlita.
And although I don’t want to open up the whole Chazal/Science issue again, I do feel that this needs to be pointed out.
What the Gemara thought about treatments is not relevant. The treatments mentioned in the Gemara are not used today, nor is the medical advice in general.
The Chasam Sofer was not a doctor. He didn’t have access to advanced medical data.
Rav Eliyashiv is not a doctor. I may go to him when I need advice on halachic matters. I will not go to him for a medical problem, a plumbing problem, an electrical problem, an investment question or a computer issue. Why? Because he’s not an expert in those fields.
The Wolf
Let’s see… on one side of the scale we have the opinion of “Wolfish” and on the other side of the sale we have the combined weight of the Gemorah, the Chasam Sofer, and Rav Elyashev shlita.
Cute. But you didn’t answer the question I asked.
Does your doctor follow this theory when prescribing treatments for you? Does your pharmacist? Your dentist?
The Wolf
You need to take your proverbial head out of the golus sand to see the light.
So, Volvie, instead of throwing around ad hominems, please explain it to me.
How is it that having a “Mother’s Day” is an excuse to “kick your mother to the curb” the other days of the year, but having Tisha B’Av is not an excuse to “kick mourning for the loss of the Bais HaMikdash to the curb?”
The Wolf
He rules that we cannot assume that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a Nochri will also be successful on a Jew.
Do you go to a doctor who follows this theory? Does your pharmacist? Or your dentist? If not, aren’t you endangering your life since perhaps the treatments he learned in medical school will actually harm you instead of helping you?
The Wolf
volvie, which KKK congressman proposed the legislation to create Mothers’ Day?
Not that it matters. Mother’s Day is a good or bad idea regardless of the person who proposed it.
The Wolf
Volvie,
I wasn’t comparing Mother’s Day to the other holidays… I was showing that your argument was bogus. Your contention was that having a “Mother’s Day” means that every other day is an “excuse to kick your mother to the curb.” IOW, having one day set aside to honor someone gives you license to treat them badly the rest of the year. I simply showed you that it’s simply not true, based on examples from our own calendar.
The Wolf
When you have a “mother’s day”, every other day of the year is an excuse to kick your mother to the curb. Uch un vay, nebech, for the nochrim.
When you have Yom Kippur, every other day of the year is an excuse to sin without worrying about repentence.
When you have Tisha B’Av, every other day of the year is an excuse to forget about the loss of the Bais HaMikdash.
When you have Shavuous, every other day of the year is an excuse to kick Torah learning to the curb.
See how silly your argument is?
Don’t you think it’s possible… just possible that people can honor their parents and yet still have a day set aside for just such a purpose?
The Wolf
what is the reason for cheese cake ?
Because they like it.
Now, if you question is why have dairy meals on Shavuous, that’s a different question.
The Wolf
If I use McDonalds wifi (via the parking lot) does that cost them any money?
Does that make it right? Do you know what McDonald’s policy is regarding Wifi?
There are some places (and McD, for all I know, may be one of them) that allow anyone (actual customers or not) to use their Wifi. Others restrict it to customers.
You really should find out what it is before you use their Wifi. The very fact that you asked the question shows that you care about the possibility of theft from them — which is good. That being the case, you should make sure that you have permission to use it even if you aren’t an actual paying customer.
The Wolf
Planes being attacked. Times Square, Buses left on bridge. Shoes. Microwaves. No-fly list not working. Attempted terrorist attacks or scares popping out all over.
What is happening? What is going on?
Obama happened, that is what…
All I said was Obama happened.
I don’t recall saying what you stated, Wolf, so it’s kind of unfair to tell me what I make anything seem, would you not agree?
Oomis, when someone states that a phenomenon is going on and asks “what happened?” and you say “Obama happened,” the implication is that Obama is (at least partly) the cause. Otherwise, what was the point of your statement?
I didn’t vote for Obama either, but if McCain had won the election, many of the same problems would still exist.
The Wolf
I thought at the $100k level, the family gets healthcare from their job.
That does not necessarily mean that the company pays 100% of the premiums… or even anywhere close to it.
The Wolf
No but I think that while Bush was in office, he used all his power to protect our country.
That may or may not be true, but it’s really beside the point since Bush wasn’t going to be in office now regardless of how the election turned out.
Oomis’ comment made it seem that this is all Obama’s fault and that had he not been elected, we wouldn’t have the problems mentioned in the OP. That is simply not true.
The Wolf
$40,000/year could be considered wealthy.
Just as a side point, one should not confuse income and wealth. While one may lead to the other, they are not the same. A person can have a very high income and yet be quite poor.
The Wolf
Obama happened, that is what…
Oh please. Do you think that if McCain won, the extremists would simply have given up?
The Wolf
That which wolfishmusings says notational systems did not exist in Dovid’s time is not accurate, in fact there are musical notes preserved from ancient Greece from just about that time.
I may need to stand corrected on this. Some basic research indicates that there were musical notation systems at least in the latter days of the Bayis Sheini. (However, that they actually existed in the Bais HaMikdash is NOT a given.)
That being said, however, the fact remains that we don’t have the “sheet music” of the day. So, even if it existed in the BhM (not a given) and even if it existed to this day (which is doesn’t) and even if it could be deciphered (also not a given), there’s STILL no guarantee that it wouldn’t drift. Once again, I point you to the example of laining. Even though we all use the same symbols, my darga may not be the same as someone else’s darga. My gairshayim is not the same as another’s gairshayim. Yes, they’re similar in the here and now, but they aren’t the same — and that makes them liable to drift over the centuries — much like the pronunciation of words can (and does) drift over the centuries.
According to Rav Schwab ztl the tune of “ledovid boruch” sung in Breuer’s on motzai shabbos dates back to the beis hamikdash.
WADR to Rav Schwab, I don’t know how he could possibly know that. He might be able to credibly claim that the present tune has its *origins* in a tune that came from the BhM (still quite a claim given the geographic, temporal and cultural differences), but to say that it is the tune they sung? I don’t know how he could possibly say that definitively.
The Wolf
Oh son, your support is much appreciated.
Kidding aside, if you go back to page 1, you’ll see I recommended *against* getting an Ipad.
The Wolf
rp- For every person who became a better Jew, (fill in the number) became a far worse Jew.
0.1?
Seriously, how do you know that more people became worse Jews because of Apple instead of better?
The Wolf
Who says that none of the songs are preserved? I’ve heard that the tune which is sung during Birchas Kohanim goes back to the Beis Hamikdash.
Source?
And which tune? I’ve heard several different tunes used.
The Wolf
Without a written notational system, something that did not exist in Dovid’s time, it is nearly impossible to preserve a melody.
I’ve not done any research into the age of the melodies we use for things like the leining, so I may be mistaken, but it’s seems that they’ve survived hundreds if not thousands of years. If we could manage to pass them along generation to generation, why didn’t those of Dovid HaMelech get passed down, as well?
You are mistaken. I’m not sure where the origins of the musical notes that we use in leining are, but it’s fairly clear that it has morphed and changed over time. I’ve been teaching leining to bar mitzvah boys for over 20 years and I can tell you that none of the boys I taught lein exactly the same way that I do — nor do I lain exactly the way my teacher did. Much as word pronunciation changes over time*, I would expect a musical “language” used by far fewer people to experience an even greater “drift” over the generation.
The Wolf
* An excellent book on language that covers, among other things, how word pronunciations in the English language have drifted over the years and locations is Bill Bryson’s “The Mother Tongue.”
Don’t parent’s deserve to know why their kids were not accepted in school, and don’t they have a right to appeal a decision???
Assuming it’s an entirely private school, the answer to your questions are as follows:
— Do you deserve to know why your kids aren’t accepted? Yes, you deserve to know. But we don’t always get what we deserve.
— Do you have the right to appeal? No, you don’t. The school is free to set up whatever rules they like.
That being said, if a school is showing you that they treat potential customers this badly, you’re probably better off that you weren’t accepted.
The Wolf
how many times have u seen dogs on the lap of the driver and their heads out the drivers window??
While the car was in motion? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it.
zachkessin-ur first responability is driving the car?!how are u supposed to drive with a dog on ur lap?!
He wasn’t disagreeing with you – he was saying that a driver shouldn’t be so distracted that s/he can’t concentrate on the act of driving — regardless of the source of distraction.
The Wolf
Heh, if only. My mother has never been on-line in her life.
Besides, I don’t call my mother “Mommy.” She’s been “Mom” for a looooooong time.
The Wolf
Mommy,
Far be it from me to tell you how to spend your own money… but since you asked:
Generally speaking, as the parent of three teens, I feel that an Ipad is too much for a bar mitzvah present. Those things start at about $500.
That being said, I am generally of the opinion that a gift should suit the occasion. A Bar Mitzvah is (or should be, anyway) a spiritual occassion, marking an important milestone in the young man’s religious life. As such, I’ve always felt that a religiously themed gift is the best way to go (although, I’ll admit, that I’ve often given cash as well when I didn’t have the time to look for something more appropriate).
But that’s just my own $1/50.
The Wolf
I know, but that’s because you were involved in the discussion. Not everyone reading this thread was. 🙂
The Wolf
Just remember one things, when you are driving a car your first responability is to drive the car Everything else is second.
Is it? Oh darn. I thought the first responsibility was to figure out if the car is driving down the road or if the car is stationary and the road is passing underneath. 🙂
The Wolf
(For those who don’t get my weird sense of humor — see this thread: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/physics-realativity )
Chesedname,
maybe that’s another solution have the state build a public school, where we’ll send our kids, have them pay the full cost, and we will rent the building for a few hours a day for anything we want, which will happen to be religious studies.
Three questions about this proposed scenario — provided it’s even legal:
1. Many parents send their kids to yeshiva not just to receive a Torah education but also to not have their kids subjected to outside influences. Sending them to a public school such as you proposed undermines that since you can’t have a public school for Orthodox Jews only. How are you going to address the concerns of parents to send their kids there?
2. What are you going to do when a Jewish kid decides he doesn’t want to go to the after-school Jewish education. By law he can’t be forced to go.
3. What are you going to do when a non-Jewish kid wants to join in? If it’s on public school grounds, I’m almost positive that you’d have to accept him.
The Wolf
why do they have to wait until there is ‘enough incidences’for it to be brought to their attention?
Because how are they supposed to address a problem before they know it is one?
The Wolf
Chesed,
The tags you can use are listed below the reply box.
Allowed markup: a blockquote code em strong ul ol li.
You can also put code in between backtick ( ` ) characters.
The Wolf
still don’t get tags?
someone right apple i want to say orange
i go to reply which is empty, copy and paste his apple and do this?
<apple> ??
No. To italicize something, do this:
< em > your text here < / em > — and delete the spaces in the brackets.
The Wolf
It’s not fraud, if the state is willing to give the money, but will do so only if it’s called “lunch money” and THEY KNOW it’s more than lunch cost, it’s not fraud.
Actually, that’s the very definition of fraud.
laws are manipulated like that all the time. (and i don’t even like that word, it’s more like finding a loophole to make something work, and again it happens all the time)
Care to give some of those examples?
the constitution says there should be a separation of church and state, why is the federal government close for a christian holiday?? are they breaking the law?
Good question. I’ll have to research it. I’m almost positive someone must have filed suit on the matter.
How did NYC open an Arab public school with our tax money?
Because “Arab” is not a religion. Just like the Hebrew culture school on Kings Highway. Arab culture and Hebrew culture are taught at those school. Islam and Judaism are not.
maybe that’s another solution have the state build a public school, where we’ll send our kids, have them pay the full cost, and we will rent the building for a few hours a day for anything we want, which will happen to be religious studies.
Don’t know if that’s legal. Yeah, I know… everything is legal to you if you push enough.
The Wolf
what’s mind boggling is how little you seem to know about politics and life. if there was a meeting between the state and local yeshivas, and the state was convinced they want to help us with tuition, (not that they should or have to, again my point is if they wanted to help us they can) they will say OK I’m sold, but we have a legal issue, the yeshivas can say (this is one of a hundred ideas) we will have 2 schools both renting space from a 3rd entity (a church can rent space from you, doesn’t mean you own a church or that you’re a priest)now the state is helping ONLY a secular school with no religious affiliation!!
That subterfuge is even sillier than the previous one. It doesn’t matter whom you rent space from. A secular school can rent space from a church and be funded by the state. The only two things that prohibit state funding are if religion is taught or if the school is controlled by a religious institution. Whom you rent space from is really irrelevant.
But, hey, let’s take this a bit further and say that it works. Let’s say the politicians decide to do it and let’s say that no disgruntled taxpayers file suit to stop the payments. Great — you now have two schools — a yeshiva and a secular school which is not run or controlled by a religious institution. Now what do you do when a group of Catholics want to enroll in your secular school (but not in your yeshiva)? How are you going to keep them out? Or will you admit them?
it actually does, take your head out of the sand and you’ll see the government can and does do as it pleases, it bends laws, it breaks laws, it changes them as it pleases. welcome to politics, but it is what it is!
Frankly, your assertion here is just mind-boggling. You are, in essence, accusing just about every politician of corruption. So why even have a constitution then? Why even have laws?
The fact of the matter is that the state cannot violate it’s own Constitution. If it does, it will be sued and the courts will force it to abide by the constitution. That’s the way it works, despite your assertion to the contrary. What prevents New York (or any other jurisdiction) from simply outlawing Judaism? The constitutional protections. What prevents a cop from just breaking into your home and searching for evidence of a crime without a warrant*? The Constitution. Believe it or not, it does work.
I guess at this point we simply have to agree to disagree. You believe that we live in anarchy, where laws can be ignored willy-nilly and that politicians are free to do whatever they conceive of without consequence or reprisal from authorities or the voters. I believe we live in a society with laws and order. Are there some people in government who are corrupt as you pointed out? Sure there are, but they don’t represent the system as a whole.
You seem to believe that it’s okay to engage in dishonesty and chicanery to get what you want from the government. You have no problem with creating “secular” schools which are really controlled by religious authorities. You have no problem with government giving tens of millions of dollars as “lunch money” when it’s clearly for something else. I believe in honesty and being above-board. I believe in being up-front with the tax payers about what they are paying for. If they’re paying for tuition for religious schools, then label it as such.
Lastly, I’m fairly certain that you are inconsistent. You would have no problem with the state government ignoring the Blaine Amendment, but at the same time you would scream bloody murder if the Federal government simply ignored the Freedom of Religion clause and said “all Jews get out.” I have a problem with that. I believe government should be consistent.
The Wolf
* Yes, it won’t actually stop the cop from busting in, but it will cause any evidence that they collect in that raid to be inadmissible in court.
Your second post came in while I was composing this, so I didn’t address those points in this post. I will do so in the next post.
[em]this will show up in italics[/em]
Replace the “[” with “<“
Replace the “]” with “>”
The Wolf
let me ask you- what is worse, holding a cell phone in your hand, or having a dog on your lap while driving?!?
Does it matter? Each “infraction” should be judged on it’s own merits, not based on how it relates to other offenses. Just because driving with your dog on your lap is legal doesn’t mean that looking at your cell phone while driving should be legal. Perhaps they should *both* be illegal — and the only reason dog lapping while driving hasn’t been banned yet is because there aren’t enough incidences of it to warrant serious attention.
The Wolf
Chesedname,
Please learn to use the em tag, or at least quotation marks. It’s very difficult to read your posts where your quotation of me just blends into your own remarks.
That being said…
the reason no school is doing it, comes back to my point because the state is not looking to help yeshivas, if they wanted to this could be one of many ways to do it.
You seem to think that splitting the yeshivas up into two schools is somehow the government’s responsibility. It’s not. If a yeshiva wants to try this to get around the state constitution, then they are free to try. No one at the state level is stopping them from splitting their schools in two.
The reason they aren’t doing it is because they can actually the constitution for themselves and see that even a secular school that is owned by a religious organization is ineligible for state funding. Your refusal to see this point is most mind-boggling. You seem to think that if the state wanted to, it could simply wish away the Blaine amendment. But government doesn’t work that way — despite your assertions to the contrary.
really? hmmm guess what yeshivas currently get lunch money, and computer money, and book money, and bus money. the reality is we do get millions, just not enough that parents don’t have to pay twice, once as a tax and again to yeshivas.
Do they? If so, I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that the money comes from Federal programs, not state programs (aside from transportation which is specifically exempted from the Blaine Amendment). The state is not giving “millions” to the schools for these programs.
You seem to have this problem of conflating the federal and state governments as if they were one entity. They’re two completely separate forms of government. The Blaine Amendment doesn’t prohibit the feds from giving money for certain programs. It does prohibit the state. Got it?
the fact that the state is broke is a silly argument, I’m talking about a general lack of interest on the states part to help with private tuition for many years, they said no when they had millions of extra dollars. so to say today well their broke, that’s not why it won’t work.
No, the fact that the state is broke is a *very* good argument. If you want the state to kick in money now, then you have to deal with the reality as it is now.
That aside, the voters of New York put the Blaine Amendment into the Constitution. If you want it removed, you have to appeal to the legislators and the voters. That’s the way it works, despite your assertions to the contrary. That’s the democratic process.
However, all is not lost. If you want funding for religious schools from the state, there is a way to do it. Call your legislators. Have an amendment to the state constitution passed. Appeal to the voters and have them vote on it. It’s that simple.
Frankly, your suggestions and comments that we should have the state pay for yeshivos through subterfuge, chicanery and outright fraud (calling money clearly meant for tuition relief “lunch money”) are very disturbing to me. Your complete lack of respect for the rule of law and your lack of understanding of state and federal government workings (such as suggesting that the state government could just ignore the Blaine Amendment if it wanted to) is also troubling.
The Wolf