WolfishMusings

heavy duty argument here…

What would I know about heavy duty argument? I’m just a “little shnuk” before your towering intellect. I’m not intellectually capable of knowing anything about “heavy duty argument.”

The Wolf

Where was he? And if the rav were there, would the problem have been resolved?

I don’t know. And considering that I’m not a member, he is not required to answer to me for his absence.

Besides, your rav *never* goes away for a Yom Tov or Shabbos?

The Wolf

Avram,

That’s a fair criticism. Your point here:

4.) Drop points 1 and 2 and argue that you are completely and honestly serious about point 3.

… is well taken. However, sometimes that is how I am made to feel. Is it logical? Granted, it is probably not. Yet, despite any other appearances, I do have emotions and sometimes act very strongly on them, even if the end result is not completely logical. Consider it a failing on my part.

I posted the same thing three months ago, and was told that I was wrong and to stop being bothered by it!

No one has said that here, so obviously I cannot trot that out.

I am sorry that you have had so much trouble at this Yeshivish-style shul.

It’s not that. Heck, the shul that I daven in when there is laining is a largely yeshivish-style shul with no talking… and I have never once ranted against it. On the contrary, it’s a warm welcoming atmosphere where people respect each others’ davening, do not talk or disturb and where I can actually hear the chazzan when he speaks. In other words, it’s not the fact that it’s yeshivish style… it’s the fact that they talk during davening. Had they been a chassidish shteeble, a Young Israel, an MO shul or anything else, I’d be just as bothered.

The Wolf

I’m not suggesting a confrontation, just a simple question, as a talmid might ask a rebbe.

That, too, is a confrontation… albeit of a lesser nature. My almost-unfailing policy is to never correct anyone (other than my children). The few times that I did do so, I almost always regretted it afterward.

The Wolf

In what way do you disturb them with your talking during Laining if they don’t talk and actually want to hear every word you say?

I’m not sure I’m able to parse this question. Can you perhaps restate it, please?

In any event, keep in mind that these are two different shuls. The shul where the talking during davening happens is not the same shul that I go to when there is laining.

The Wolf

i wont get into the *you*, just the action. the action of feeling good by belittling is wrong. the *you* is non of my buisness

Fair enough. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. You believe that I am belittling. I am not.

i tell u about them, its them i am bothered about and not the talking

I have no idea what this means. But that’s probably just because I’m stupid.

The Wolf

vent 2: i say they are better, but *i* am realy *better*

Again, I cannot change what you believe. I can only tell you what I know to be the truth, and that is that I do NOT hold myself to be better than anyone, that I am serious about what I wrote above and that I am NOT doing this to make myself “feel good.” Trust me when I say that I feel anything but “good” at the moment.

If you choose not to believe me, then you are free to come out and simply call me a liar. You’ll be wrong, of course, but you’re free to say it anyway.

The Wolf

there’s also a p’tur if your’e not doing it completely l’shem shamayim

See my response above. There is no reason for me to rebuke them, so I don’t need a p’tur of any kind.

The Wolf

If I’m not mistaken, I think halacha says one should confront / rebuke in this instance. There is a ‘ptur’ if you’ll be harmed (physically?).

I don’t believe they are doing wrong halachically. I’m sure they have solid halachic grounds on which to stand (of which I am not aware, but then again, I am not well-learned) and that it is I who am in the wrong.

The Wolf

and its that same *you* who is valuing your feeling and sounding good (which is worth anyway) more than the good name of Jews who dress properly for davening.

I believe you misspelled “worthless.” 🙂

In any event, it doesn’t matter. If you want to think that I did this just to knock other people down, go ahead. I can’t change what you believe. I can only tell you that you’re wrong. I most certainly don’t “feel good.” I most certainly don’t hold myself higher than anyone else. And I most certainly don’t engage in pot shots at people just to knock them down.

The Wolf

then u tell us how bad they are. we will take ur word at it.

On the contrary. I am sure that they have solid halachic grounds on which to stand. You obviously did not read my OP carefully. It is *I* who am the one who is doing to sin of being choshed b’k’sharim and in valuing my davening (which is worthless anyway) more than the sicha of tzadikim.

The Wolf

Two ways for me to be greater than you.

this thread has chosen 2

Actually, I’ve chosen to knock myself down. Also I’m not trying to be greater than anyone else. I readily acknowledge that I’m worse than everyone else.

The Wolf

It’s supposed to help you acheive simchas hachaim.

You mean I’m supposed to be HAPPY that I’m out of my mind for not saying Hallel on the first night of Pesach?

The Wolf