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Shimon Katz – The son-in-law was Rav Tzvi Hirsh Glickson, who was married to Sarah Rashe the daughter of Reb Chaim Brisker. He was a Talmid and Chossid of the Avnei Neizer of Socatchov, and Reb Chaim, who met him while visiting Warsaw in 1913, was profoundly impressed by his clarity in learning. He lived for a time in Brisk and became a close Talmid of Reb Chaim, aside from being his son-in-law. After Reb Chaim’s passing he returned to Warsaw and opened a Yeshiva there named Toras Chaim. There he taught mostly Chassidish bochurim according to the Brisker derech halimud… He tried to move with his family to Eretz Yisroel in 1935, but could not get the necessary “certificate”. Tragically, he was killed together with his entire family when the Nazis ימ״ש invaded Poland, so he doesn’t have descendants today. השם ינקום דמם.
At any rate, it is absurd to suggest that the Beis Haleivi held the “cherem” against Chassidim to still be in effect, and then a generation later his son makes a (very successful) shidduch with Chassidim. (For those wondering, the original cherem explicitly prohibited “intermarriage” with Chassidim.) What changed all of a sudden and when? אלא מאי, as often happens when stories about machlokes pass through the grapevine and through the sands of time, people tend to embellish them and add things that להד״ם…
Does any Litvish Godol living today actually believe the “cherem” against Chassidim is still in force? If the answer is no, but in the time of the Beis Haleivi supposedly it still was in effect (שקר גס, but for argument’s sake…) so when did it suddenly stop? Or maybe it wasn’t so in force even then? Or maybe never really legit to begin with…
ujm – You keep on babbling about how the Arabs/Muslims were supposedly so wonderful to the Jews until Zionism came along. Even אם תמצי לומר that your thesis is true (it isn’t), the Arab mentality doesn’t care. If they hate Jews now, THEY THINK that they ALWAYS hated Jews, and that’s how they program their kids. They don’t believe in binary true/false or in history as an immutable reality, or in REALITY ITSELF as an immutable reality. So it doesn’t matter that factually at certain times in the past they were “so-so plus”, which qualified in the Middle Ages as a “Golden Age”. What matters is how THEY see their identity and history NOW. Not how you and your friends sitting somewhere you fool yourself into thinking is a safe distance away think they see themselves.
Shimon Katz – Just a quick heads up. Rabbi Manis Friedman is Dr. Qwerty’s favorite topic, for some reason even more than the “Atzmut Mahutniks” you mentioned. The thing that turned Qwerty against me in an almost obsessive way is that I had the gall to suggest to him that he should try to contact Rabbi Friedman and talk to him before Paskening that he is a Kofer. Just ask the Rabbi what he meant. To him all of Chabad boils down to that one stupid video on YouTube. Nothing else they or even the Rebbe himself said or did counts, only “Manis Friedman”.
Dr. Qwerty – You say that you daven six days a week at a Chabad Shul. You also have said multiple times in previous posts that you consider Chabad to be idolators and Kofrim etc. So what is your Heter to daven in an “idolatrous” place of worship? Or are you not so sure that each and every Lubavitcher is a “kofer”?
Thanks SQUARE_ROOT. I’m not so sure Alan himself is so proud of the Harvard stuff these days… At any rate, most people know who he is.
Shimon – Watch out for Dr. Qwerty, he is the “pit bull” of the coffee room on anything connected with Chabad. Don’t try to engage him in debate, it’s a complete waste of time.
Shimon – A day in the life of the “Coffee Room”. This should really be called the “Rage Room”.
ujm – “That being said, what I earlier stated that prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims is absolutely 100% undisputable fact.”
I would cool it a bit on that “far, far better” stuff. The Muslims in the Middle Ages were in fact far better than the Christians, but they went through centuries of decline and radicalization, way before Zionism, and the Christians went through the Renaissance and Enlightenment which weakened the power of the Church. By the time Europe had come up with new secular “reasons” to be antisemitic, the Muslims had caught up with or surpassed them.
Rav Shach was not speaking theoretically at all. He answered real Sheilos both during the Camp David Accords and the Oslo Accords. Do you seriously think Rav Shach held it would be OK to surrender Israeli sovereignty ENTIRELY to the Arabs? Or are you again playing your game of moving the goal posts?
Dr. Yaakov Qwerty שליט״א said “YYA sinks to a new low by suggesting a commonality between those who criticize Chabad and those who support Neturei Karta.”
You missed the parenthesis where I wrote: (not that I equate those groups).
The ONLY commonality I did suggest between the critics is that they are using the “Coffee Room” as a “Rage Room”. There are three main Chevra, with some occasional assistance, who constantly flame about the “Zionists”, as if the type of Zionism they are so worked up about even exists anymore. They often start pyro-provocative threads about dismantling Israel etc. There is another group who flame at “anti-Zionists”, especially NK. Now the fake NK clowns, as I have mentioned many times, exhibit all of the symptoms of “antisocial personality disorder”. The WORST thing to do with someone like that is to berate him and curse him etc., because he enjoys being a pariah and that just adds “fuel” for his fire. I don’t know what your field of specialization is, but as a doctor I’m sure you understand that. So neither of these two groups accomplish anything other than venting their anger in a “kosher” way. Then there is the third group, of which you are the leader and champion, who use Chabad as their punching bag. (You also use me personally as a punching bag, but that’s much better than using the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל, so feel free to keep on doing so.)
The צד השוה שבהם is that they are mainly looking for “kosher” לשון הרע and אונאת דברים and other such activities.
ujm – Sometimes the best thing to say is nothing. Especially since this letter is mainly for internal RZ purposes and will not make any difference in real life, for reasons you won’t understand.
ujm – Brilliant, ingenious argument. That will show them. Get a life.
Meaning as much as the Supreme Court despise the Chareidim.
ברחל בתך הקטנה
As much as THEY despise the Chareidim.
The sad truth is that most of the current government, and certainly the opposition waiting in the wings for the “Bismuth Plan” to fail or be shot down by the SC, couldn’t care less about the RZ or the Chareidim, only about their own political career. Most of the Supreme Court, who are the ones who actually make the decisions, downright despise the RZ, as much as the Chareidim.
I could think of better things to do לעילוי נשמת the fallen הי״ד than to use them to promote controversy, but I agree with ZSK about the “merits” of posting this here.
ujm – What about this very partial list limited to Eretz Yisroel long before Zionism:
1517 Chevron and Tzfas
1660s Total destruction of Teverya, pogroms in Tzfas.
Early 1700’s Yerushalayim
1834 Tzfas and Chevron
1838 Mostly Tzfas
and more…
All involving mass murder and Hamas-style treatment of the women. You don’t know or care.
“The question arises in countries like Korea, Malaysia Phillipines etc, where there are no Jews except an occasional traveler or someone who has seasonal work.”
There are huge numbers of Israeli tourists who travel to all kinds of nutty places, especially in the Far East, and very often are more open to investigating Yiddishkeit there than they are at home. Down the block from me lives a (now Chassidish, not Chabad) family, from a very secular background, who became Baalei Teshuva thanks to Chabad of Bangkok. The Chabad house of Hoi An, Vietnam (just down the road from Da Nang…) hosts an average of 250 Israelis every Shabbos. Chabad of Wyoming is located in Jackson Hole, not Cheyenne, and there is actually a book published about what they do. There is also a book published by the Shaliach in Anchorage, Alaska with mind-boggling stories of Kiruv and Chessed, including traveling with a plane than can land on ice to do Brissim in towns north of the Arctic Circle.
But hey, Qwerty knows best – “Kiruv really isn’t possible in those places”. As if he tried.
“As for your grandfather, Chabad was different at that time. It was seriously interested in Kiruv, but things have changed.”
First of all, the קפידה was on the “low return” part. Was one Neshoma worth more in 1960 than it is worth today. Secondly, “at that time” was in 1960. Almost ten years after the last Rebbe זצ״ל accepted leadership of Chabad. The main sichos used to try to present Chabad as Kofrim etc. were already said by then, and the Shelichus enterprise was well underway. (Having actually been started by the Rayatz זצ״ל, but don’t let facts confuse you.) So you are now saying that then they WERE OK? That’s a big step forward for you, especially since you don’t seem to know a lot about the Shluchim of later years.
Feel free to use me as a verbal punching bag. I couldn’t care less.
Yedl – אין הכי נמי, there is never such a thing as “low benefit kiruv”. Neshamos are not dollars and anyone who thinks of kiruv in terms of ROI/bottom-line calculations doesn’t begin to understand what it means to bring a חלק אלוק ממעל back to the Ribbono Shel Olam. That’s before you even start factoring in זרעו וזרע זרעו עד סוף כל הדורות. Truly mind boggling.
Rav Avigdor Miller זצ״ל, attributed his entire course in life and everything he accomplished, to a Lubavitcher Chossid who was his private Rebbi as a teenager in Baltimore in the 1920’s, who instilled in him love for learning Gemara and convinced him to continue his Jewish education in Yeshivah Gedolah, something very unusual in America back then.
somejew – “it sounds like your concern is that the stated goal is impractical.”
Why is that not sufficient grounds to oppose something? Especially when “impractical” means literal סכנת נפשות?
“But my question explicitly side-stepped that issue.”
Of course, because you aren’t interested in the reality on the ground or how do deal with that reality. You just want more feed for endless debates about hypothetical scenarios that aren’t an option in real life. Something made easier by the fact that you don’t live here, and you apparently are willing to gamble with millions of Jewish lives. (As if someone in a position of power either on the “Zionist” side or the “Palestinian” side is asking you or any of us for our opinion.)
Yedl – “The words “low benefit kiruv” hurt me, because I am only frum today because a Lubavitcher Chassid was Mekarev my grandfather in 1960. Am I a low benefit?”
Reb Yedl, many (not all, or even most) of the people here aren’t interested in sincere and meaningful discussion. They want a “rage room” where they can vent their steam without revealing their real identity and therefore with no consequences. The “problem” is they understand that isn’t so Kosher, so the “solution” is to find some שעיר לעזאזל who is “יוצא מכלל עמיתך” according to them, and therefore “fair game” for Lashon Hara, Onaas Devorim, etc. The three most popular choices are “Zionists”, “Neturei Karta”, or Lubavitch. (Not that I equate the three groups.) It has nothing to do with you, and not much to do with them either.
Yedl – “when someone has a warm fuzzy feeling, is he doing the Mitzvas Aseh of Ahavas Hashem?”
Yes, actually, on a basic level. (אהבה טבעית vs. אהבה רבה etc. There is actually a lot of profound “Reid” in the ספרים הקדושים on the supposedly “fuzzy feeling” stuff.) How is anyone מחנך children (little or big or sometimes even adults…) to Ahavas Hashem, Ahavas HaTorah, Ahavas HaMitzvos? With warm fuzzy emotion that doesn’t involve big Hasagos. Obviously there is much room to grow further over the course of a lifetime.
The Baal Shem Tov taught 60 great Talmidim, most of whom were already great Geonim and Lamdanim before they met the Baal Shem Tov, and many were already or went on to become Rabbonim and Poskim. The Baal Shem Tov had what to teach them just as much (and more) as he had what to teach Poshute Yidden. The trope that Chassidus is only about “feelings” and not Torah ח״ו is מזוייף מתוכו. There is a very important Inyan not to NEGLECT “feelings”, not to REJECT “Poshute Yidden”, not to be מבטל any aspect of חובת האדם בעולמו OTHER than “only” Lomdus, but none of this is a סתירה to גדלות בתורה or the centrality of Torah in the life of a Yid.
DaMoshe said – “I’d say the Gra was definitely correct.”
I am מוחה on you being מבזה the Gra זי״ע. It’s assur to say such a thing even about your father or your Rebbi, let alone about גדולי הדורות from 250 years ago. The Gra זי״ע doesn’t need your הסכמה.
Before you and some other chevra on this thread open up your פי חזיר כבית הכסא ניידא דמי to be מבזה Gedolim from centuries ago, you should first learn what the Baal Shem Tov זי״ע and later גדולי החסידות זי״ע really said (and didn’t say), what the Gra זי״ע and later גדולי ליטא זי״ע said (and didn’t say), and also what the Shulchan Aruch says…
I am writing this as מחאה, not as an invitation for more debate.
This thread began with the following statement:
“I believe that there are many people here who identify as “Chassidim” or “Chassidish” or something like that.
In my mind, this means that their life has been effected in some way by a revolution started by the Ba’al Shem Tov a few hundred years ago.
I am very curious to know how different people feel about this:
How would your Yiddishkeit or life in general have been different if not for the Ba’al Shem Tov?
What does it mean to you that you are a Chassid?”In other words, a self-identified Chossid, asked fellow Chassidim or those interested in Chassidus or with some Kesher to Chassidus, to discuss what Chassidus means to them. Anyone opposed to the Baal Shem Tov or Chassidus, or who doesn’t believe his Derech still exists, need not comment altogether. Just go on with your life as usual. Why the venom? Why the ביזוי תלמידי חכמים from close to 300 years ago?
The Beis Haleivi’s granddaughter (daughter of Reb Chaim Brisker) was married to a Chossid. The Chofetz Chaim in Mishna Berura quotes the Shulchan Aruch Harav with the same or greater frequency, and deliberately using the same honorific title (HaGRaZ – HaGRA), as he quotes the Vilna Gaon. If you don’t like Chassidus, don’t be a Chossid. Be an Ehrlicher Litvak. But don’t be a shaygetz who is מבזה תלמידי חכמים.
somejew – “as a Yid, what issue do you have with the “One State Solution” as a replacement for today’s government? (giving its proponents the benefit of the doubt that there is a practical path to that goal). Isn’t the “extreme leftist post-zionism” just the same as every other fully secular western government?”
Show me even one Arab-only country where democracy works altogether, let alone a country with mostly Muslim Arabs and other large groups. Do you know anything about the history of Lebanon? Are Jews able to live there today?
HaKatan – “The “old secular Zionists” are not “old” but very much exist today, and are very much Erev Rav.
As well, “post-Zionist” opposition to Judaism is far better for Jews than Zionist opposition to Judaism because Zionist opposition to Judaism stems from its need to redefine and replace Judaism with Zionism, while post-Zionist opposition to Judaism doesn’t have that ideological idolatry powering that opposition.”“The “old secular Zionists” are not “old” but very much exist today, and are very much Erev Rav.”
Where do you see them? In Brooklyn? In Rockland County? I live in Eretz Yisroel, and I don’t see them here, except in the Beis Hakevoros.
The Israeli Supreme Court, the Attorney General, the Israeli “mainstream media”, and almost all the major players in the battle against Yiddishkeit in Eretz Yisroel, all subscribe to the Post-Zionist ideology (although they don’t necessarily support a one state solution in practice at this point, for the practical reason that the Arabs are not ready for peaceful coexistence…) Post-Zionism is based on Progressive ideology, which is pro-Toeva, pro-Arayos, etc. They want to replace Judaism with Progressivism and Universalism, which is the real המשך of Zionism – ככל הגויים בית ישראל.
“while post-Zionist opposition to Judaism doesn’t have that ideological idolatry powering that opposition.”
Of course they do, they just have a NEW AND DIFFERENT ideology of Rishus.
Reb Yedl – מה לכהן בקברות, there are better places to ask serious questions.
There are currently living Gedolei Yisroel who DO hold of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a Tzadik, and who do hold of the Shluchim in a major way. Anyone who chooses to follow those Gedolim does not have to care about what nameless and faceless posters on social media think about that.
DaMoshe – You are just repeating old tropes without learning what the Baal Shem Tov actually said or didn’t say. I don’t have time to copy over the numerous מראי מקומות. If you are serious, do your own research. Many Sifrei Chassidus are available online and searchable.
“The difference is that Chassidus focuses on the feeling, and ignores the proper method of the actions.”
No, it does not. There is much in print from the great Gedolei HaChassidus going back to the Baal Shem Tov himself about the importance of learning and following Halacha in all of its details. Chassidus produced and continues to produce Geonim and Poskim. The fact that some individual Rebbes davened late etc. doesn’t change that. The Baal Shem Tov himself davened Vasikin every day, and recommended doing so, as attested to in the Tzavaas Baal Shem Tov and other sources.
“deification of Rebbes”
This wasn’t even a claim of the original Misnagdim. You are confusing the actions of some disturbed Baalei Teshuva in Tzfas with Chassidus in general.
“The Besht taught that the Tzaddik needed to lower himself down into the filth in order to bring his followers up – and that individuals are incapable of rising without the help of the Tzaddik.”
לאו רישא סיפא ולאו סיפא רישא. “Helping” is one thing, “incapable without” is something else. The statistical probability of someone making it on his own in Ruchniyus without a Rebbe to guide him is significantly lower.
“He also taught that the Tzaddik was born into his role, and it wasn’t something that one gets to on their own through hard work.”
Where did he ever say such a thing? The concept of “dynasties” started decades after the Baal Shem Tov passed away.
“Being “great” when you don’t have a yetzer harah is not praiseworthy at all.”
Correct, an idea expounded at length in the Chassidishe Seforim.
Qwerty – You wrote a few weeks ago that “you care about your fellow Jews more than any Lubavitcher, because you care about their Ruchniyus, not just their Gashmiyus”. (Leaving aside the Kashes that can be asked on that statement…) To which I responded, that you should then find some place on this planet where Chabad didn’t go yet, because they don’t care enough about their fellow Jews, and you should go there and open a “Qwerty House”. I am still waiting to hear where and when the first “Qwerty House” will be celebrating a Chanukas Habayis. You could do all of the amazing stuff Chabad Shluchim do to help Yidden ברוחניות ובגשמיות, and additionally you could teach them your pure Qwerty Hashkafah. If and when you do make a Chanukas Habayis, please invite me and Yankel Berel.
Wishing you all the best.
ujm – There are actually people in Israel who advocate almost exactly what you are suggesting. It is called a “One State Solution”. That is the position of Meretz/Sheretz, Chadash, “Democrats”, and other extreme left political parties. Their political philosophy is called “Post Zionism”. These people are the biggest enemies of anything having anything to do with Yiddishkeit, and they are the real ערב רב of today, like what the old secular Zionists used to be.
SQUARE_ROOT – Listen to the Torah!
Listen to the beginning of the Posuk: והיה בהניח ה׳ אלקיך לך מכל אויביך מסביב וכו׳ only afterwards תמחה את זכר עמלק. You first need a Jewish King, then Shaul Hamelech, now Moshiach.
Qwerty – Anyone who wants can search through my comments and yours and decide for himself. I never compared anyone (much less a Rov or Rebbe of any kind) to… (unmentionable, and provoked a rare intervention by the moderators.) There is no point talking to you (or to anyone else with you around) about Chabad, because you clearly have made up your mind and have no interest in sincere or even civilized discussion of this subject.
With regard to the bochur who nebech committed suicide ר״ל, unfortunately I have heard of several “Litvaks” who also committed suicide, and also other Frum Jews. Mental illness doesn’t discriminate by group affiliation. It is also customary among all observant Jews to not make a lot of noise out of such very rare occurrences, out of respect for the feelings and the kovod of the family. Most people are capable of understanding these things on their own.
Baruch Hashem, I learn Gemara every day all my life. The Lubavitcher Rebbe learned vastly more than I did, and maybe even more than you… “Haimy” apparently does not consider Chabad to be “idolaters” and “kofrim” ר״ל, so I don’t understand why he is afraid to talk you any one of the 6500 Shluchim and ask them his questions directly. He didn’t ask about their beliefs, just about the practical aspects of the challenges they deal with, which frankly is quite interesting to most people. No one is expecting you to change your opinion of Chabad, don’t worry.
DaMoshe – Actually, “Litvish” in the sense that it existed in the time of the Gra זי״ע hardly exists any more. The Derech Halimud, and even many practices and minhagim, come from much later. Aside from the fact that almost all “Litvaks” nowadays are descendants of Chassidim.
Dancing on Shabbos etc. is something already discussed in Poskim. Those who Daven Shabbbos morning after Zman Krias Shma hopefully say Shma before Davening, just like the Litvaks who Daven Maariv Friday night BEFORE Zman Krias Shma hopefully say Shma after Davening…
לא בשמים היא is specifically limited to Paskening Halacha. The Arizal and other גדולי הדורות including the Gra himself… also were zocheh to גילויים מן השמים including speaking with Neshamos of previous generations. (See the introduction of R’ Chaim Volozhiner to the Biur HaGra on Sifra Ditzniyusa, as well as Sefer Toldos Adam on R’ Zelmele Volozhiner).
Chassidus is alive and well Baruch Hashem. And even the Litvaks are better off because of it. Just read the last three lines of your own post…
The essence of the “Chiddush” of the Baal Shem Tov, as described in the works of his Talmidim, is the living, tangible Emunah that Hashem is ואתה מחיה את כולם – that nothing in the Universe has any independent existence except from the דבר השם, Who continuously creates and gives “life” to every last detail, with no place or situation being “empty” of Him. Everything else that the Baal Shem Tov taught derives from this Emunah. If Hashem is always accessible to everyone, big or small, then everyone can have a direct personal connection to Him, especially by speaking to Him in their own words. The great Tzadikim and Talmidei Chachamim can “lower themselves” to have a true Kesher with the “Poshute Yidden”, and the Poshute Yidden can have a true Kesher with the Tzadikim, because Hashem is equally interested in both groups, and no one is “far” from Him. If Hashem is accessible from any “place” or “matzav”, then no Neshoma is ever truly “lost”, and no situation is ever truly hopeless. On a practical level, this translates into a Judaism that isn’t just about “keeping score” of Mitzvos or aveiros, but each Mitzvah is a כלי to connect us to Hashem, and each aveirah is the opposite ח״ו. Learning Torah brings us into “the Mind of Hashem” כביכול, to think the way He “thinks”.
If you want to see more of what the Baal Shem Tov actually said and taught, there are a number of excellent (elucidated and annotated) recent printings of ספר בעל שם טוב על התורה and כתר שם טוב, which are collections of the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov culled from the works of his close Talmidim. (The Baal Shem Tov himself didn’t write down his teachings in a Sefer, but we have hundreds of his teachings recorded in the Sefarim of his Talmid Rebbe Yaakov Yosef Hakohen of Pollonoeh most especially תולדות יעקב יוסף, his grandson Rebbe Ephraim of Sadylkov the author of דגל מחנה אפרים, and his Talmid Rebbe Dov Ber the Maggid of Mezeritch.)
commonsaychel – This is actually one of a minority of threads on this website that sincerely asks a serious question and generates meaningful discussion. The trolls already have their hands full on the other threads…
For all the well meaning chevra posting here and thereby keeping this and other similar threads alive:
The whole point of these “pyro” threads is to provoke lots of angry responses, and thereby provide the trolls with their daily shot of antisocial/masochistic satisfaction. If everyone would just ignore them and let them die out, there would be less incentive for the trolls to keep up the game, at least on this site.
AAQ – My town also doesn’t have any (pseudo or genuine) NK. Probably because there are only a few dozen worldwide. But the people who do live here experience many of the issues directly, as opposed to reading about them in the media. That does make a difference.
Haimy – “The fact the one couple of Shluchim produce 10 more shluchim is no proof of emotional health or religious well-being.”
The “one couple” is a cute anecdote. The reality is that there are many, many more, and this has been going on for long enough that it isn’t a mystery to anyone who wants to find out. I never understood the fear critics of Chabad (or other groups) have of talking directly to the people they supposedly are so “worried about”. There are almost 6,500 registered Shluchim worldwide. Many of them are stationed in isolated locations. There is an online directory at Chabad.org with details and contact information of almost all of them. You can’t find ANYONE there you are willing to trust? So then, what do you want from them?
It has been noted that Frum children who for whatever reason grow up in a place with few other Frum people, and particularly children of outreach workers (of all kinds, not just Chabad), actually do BETTER and have a lower OTD rate than “regular” FFB children, which is usually attributed to the reasons others have already mentioned – the need to be proactive Jewishly, and the sense of mission, which are very healthy things for Chinuch.
akuperma – לא נביא אנכי ולא בן נביא אנכי. I am also no fan of Zionism or the State. However, I am not afraid of your proposed scenario, simply because the overwhelming consensus of Gedolei Yisroel, including those affiliated with the Satmar Hashkafah, DO NOT in any way approve of the antics of the (fake) NK. Therefore I am not worried about a scenario in which the (pseudo) NK will be “right” and “the representatives of the Yishuv”. Not because the State will protect us, but because the Ribbono Shel Olam will protect us. None of this has to do with the many wrong things that were done in the past by the Zionist movement, but with the Hashgacha and Shemirah of the Ribbono Shel Olam on millions of Jews in the present. Since no Gedolei Yisroel I know of, including the biggest (normative) Kanoyim, even remotely suggest leaving Eretz Yisroel (for those already here), I am actually more concerned about the future of Jews in America that in Eretz Yisroel. There is also לכל הדעות ולכל השיטות a heightened Hashgacha Pratis here of תמיד עיני השם אלקיך בה above and beyond חוץ לארץ, and nothing the ערב רב or the Arabs etc. do can change that.
AAQ – Polls are fickle (Kamala poised to win etc.) Israeli polls even more so. Israeli polls about issues dear to the hearts of the Progressive Left Secularists TM even more so. So ignore them. In Communist Russia they used Pravda for toilet paper. Here in Israel we have better toilet paper readily available, so the newspapers are unnecessary.
SQUARE_ROOT – You have more lines in your post starting “Every member of the NK” than they have members…
Qwerty – There is no need for you to regurgitate your hate for Chabad (which includes comparisons to Nazis and Communists that got previous threads closed by the moderators) that has nothing to do with the opening question of this thread. Not every thread that mentions Chabad needs to become a soapbox for you to stand on and repeat the same old tropes.
Haimy said – “Why don’t I email a Chabad house in a remote location & ask them how it affects their children? I don’t expect to get a realistic answer. They may not realize how they are affecting themselves & their children.”
Why not try? And if you don’t trust what a Lubavitcher says, so why did you invite “people within Chabad” to share their thoughts. What even is the point of starting this thread in the first place? Do you expect any of us to have better answers than they do?
לגופו של ענין, Shlichus has been going on for decades, including in isolated places. Many of the new Shluchim couples starting out are children or even grandchildren of Shluchim. So why do you assume that “they may not realize how they are affecting themselves & their children”? Collectively, they definitely have had time to see things in hindsight. As everyone knows, there is an annual convention of Shluchim, where they meet and discuss, among other things, how to deal with exactly these issues. There is also a less well known, but equally important “Shluchot” convention, where “home front” issues are even more central to the conversation.
Haimy – “I don’t know if the Rebba ever encouraged Chassidim to move to a desolate Non Jewish city & open a Krechma as in olden times.”
“” – “Should a Jew sacrifice living in a Frum community so that businessmen on a trip to the Far East shouldn’t need to live on tuna cans & the non religious Israeli visitor will put on Tefillin? I don’t understand that.”
Then you really don’t know a lot about Chabad in general, and Shlichus in particular. I heard a Shlichus story from my Rebbe (not Chabad). There was a Shaliach in Honolulu, Hawaii, already during the Rebbe’s lifetime. Not exactly a thriving Frum community. At a meeting with the Lubavitcher Rebbe the Shaliach expressed his frustration at the small number of people he was able to reach (back then) and the low “ROI” so to speak. The Rebbe told him “If you can offer a can of Cola to one Yid and get him to say a Bracha, that already is worth sitting there in Hawaii.”
The Rebbe also famously promised that he takes personal responsibility for the children of the Shluchim. (I.e., with regard to the issues you raised…) If you don’t believe in that, so fine, don’t be a Shaliach yourself… But they most definitely do believe. Since many of their kids, sometimes ALL their kids, themselves become Shluchim, it seems the recipe works. A few years ago I saw an article about an older Shliach who passed away, and some 11 (IIRC) kids flew in from all corners of the Earth (representing most of the World’s inhabited time zones) to sit Shiva together.
Lots of people do difficult things for things they believe in, which often seems to make no sense to people who don’t share those beliefs. This reminds me of the tongue-clucking posts every year about Chassidim who travel to Uman for Rosh Hashanah (or even just to be with a Rebbe in a different city) and the commenter feels so sorry for the “poor” wife who is “abandoned”. Forgetting, of course, that the wife (and daughters/small sons) left at home share the same beliefs and ideals of their husband/father, and are more than happy to share in the zechus. If you don’t get it, you don’t have to do it. But for those who do get it, the difficulties involved are part of the Avodas Hashem itself, whether in Shlichus, Chessed, travel to Tzadikkim, or anything else. For someone who doesn’t believe in what he’s doing, no difficulty is worth overcoming, to the extent that someone does believe, to that extent the difficulties don’t stop him.
These chevra are like the Baal Peor. The more tzoah you throw at them, the happier they are. They don’t have a “shittah” or a “hashkafah”. They have a personality disorder. They get their kicks out of being hated and despised by their fellow Yidden, combined with the constant media spotlight (including right here on this website.) I wouldn’t be surprised to discover that some of them may actually read (for their own sick enjoyment) the many articles here blasting them. They also aren’t “Kapos” who sell their Neshoma for material benefits like some of the Israelis who were recently arrested for actually aiding Iran. They enjoy every minute of the notoriety and fighting. It’s a real sickness called “antisocial personality disorder”. The best way to deal with these guys is to simply ignore them, because that takes away their main source of “feed”. Of course, they do things so outrageous that it’s almost impossible to ignore them… That’s the whole point… So Rabbosai – don’t feed the trolls…
AAQ said – “YYA, MAG is a good example: a quick check shows a poll SIX MONTHS AGO (emphasis added) – 41% for, 42% against, 17% unsure. Did this change by now? Maybe”
Some things have happened since then haven’t they? Some new information has come to light.
“how could Nixon win the election, I don’t (know) anybody who voted for him!”
I am at least better positioned than you geographically. My neighborhood is also quite mixed – Chareidi, RZ, Traditional Sephardic, and Chiloni Ashkenazi, all on one block. And we do talk to each other. I interact with different people and hear what they say. Is that scientific methodology? Not exactly. But it’s a better vantage point than most participants here have.
AAQ – “I am not well versed in SC decisions beyond a couple of the ones in the news –
please give me an example where SC ruled against a large majority of public opinion.”There are examples every day right here on YWN. Their handling of the case against the MAG is a particularly juicy example. Most of the Israeli public would like to see her head roll in the literal sense.