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Reb SQUARE_ROOT, במחילה ממעלת כבודכם,
1. With regard to your first post directed at me, do you know what “imply” means? By using readily available second hand material to supposedly “prove” that current Gedolei Yisroel are wrong on major issues of Hashkafa and Hanhaga (even without saying so explicitly), you IMPLY that you know better than they do because – you know how to read an Artscroll biography?! I am criticizing the IMPLICATIONS of your posts, not their literal content.
2. WRT your second post, do you rely on Artscroll biographies for authoritative information on anything else, other than source material for new “coffee room” threads?
3. That being said, none of the quotes you mentioned are in any way Hashkafic “game changers”. One doesn’t need to curse Zionists or to not see any positive side to anything they ever did in order to be opposed to drafting Yeshiva bochurim etc.
AAQ – “YYA, I agree with most of you posted. And with NP that R Hirsh had more aspirations for modernity than just save Yidden from it.”
Actually, I agree with you on this point. It is clear that Rav Hirsch held that modernity is something to engage proactively and be מתקן so to speak. Ironically, he shares some common ground with Lubavitch on this נקודה, although his vision and methodology for achieving that תיקון are different. I didn’t really intend to start a discussion about Rav Hirsch זצ״ל himself, my point was just to demonstrate that he was dealing with a מציאות of לאחר מעשה, despite the fact that he probably did in fact hold that there may be a greater cosmic purpose for why the מציאות is what it is.
It’s been a while since I last read the 19 Letters, and I don’t have a copy on hand to refresh my memory. But based on what I do remember, Rav Hirsch clearly held that “secular wisdoms” should be considered as ״רקחות וטבחות״, literally “kitchen help” for the ״גבירה״ the “lady of the household”, i.e. the Torah, which is the real תכלית the purpose of the Jewish people and the Universe as a whole. That was not exactly what MMD was looking for. So Rav Hirsch is not a rejectionist of modernity to be sure, but he puts it in its place. He definitely did not hold that secular wisdom etc. was a “Mitzvah” unto itself.
That being said, the real elephant in the room is not MMD’s “attitude towards modernity” where he may (according to the very charitable assessment of Rav Hirsch) have “just been mistaken”, but his actions to “proselytize” and spread the “light” he discovered to places it hadn’t gone yet. It’s not about his relationship with Kant, or exactly how krum Kant was or wasn’t, but about bringing Kant’s ideas into the Beis Hamedrash. The overwhelming consensus of Gedolei Yisroel ALREADY AT THAT TIME held that was a major disaster for Klal Yisroel. In hindsight, what the Gedolim saw already then, everyone saw later in a major way. So yes, had we been there, you may not have seen anything too terrible about MMD’s actions. If social media would have existed then a lot of דעת בעלי בתים people would have probably written pieces in favor of what he was doing, and clucking their tongues at הני רבנן… But that’s what Gedolei Yisroel are for, to give us real time guidance with issues that בעלי בתים are not able to chap on their own. This is why the debacle of MMD became THE model lesson לדורות how a genuine Ilui with enormous potential could end up as a major disaster for Klal Yisroel, because he thought he knew better.
WRT your item #3 – חכמה בגויים תאמין and “secular knowledge” in general.
There is a critical difference between simply “using” secular knowledge for practical purposes such as developing and using technology, and “integrating that חכמה into our behavior”, which is something different altogether. The תורה alone is what teaches us the רצון השם יתברך, which is the ONLY reason we are here. Not “just learning” as you mistakenly question in item #4, but “living” the רצון השם as manifested in the Torah. (Which requires a lot of learning both to know what to do, and even more so to integrate the Middos and attitudes of the Torah into one’s personality and inner being.) That is the whole point, and nothing else has any intrinsic value except to the extent to which it furthers that goal. So to use modern technology to make life as a Yid easier is fine, but to import ideas and values from the Goyish world, even when they are very clever, is not so fine. Just look at what a moral and ethical mess today’s universities are on almost every subject. Even Kant would blush. You specifically mentioned psychology. What about the huge amount of shmutz and sheer insanity being promoted by psychologists today, based on their “scientific research and methods”? What about “gender fluidity” and celebrating toeivah? The same methodology and approach that gave the world all this garbage in the name of ״science״ also produced the ideas you suggest “integrating”.
ZSK – The personality disorder stuff was a reference to the (fake) NK clowns themselves. אין הכי נמי, it isn’t necessary to be עד כדי כך sick just to be a troll. But who you are a fan of does say a lot about who you are. מצרף לכסף וכור לזהב ואיש לפי מהללו
If you are seriously interested in hearing what the Shluchim themselves have to say about this, you should ask them… Almost every Shaliach has some sort of website with a public email address. There are also Chabad websites and online discussion groups. I don’t see a lot of Chabad Shluchim in this “coffee room”…
As far as your questions themselves:
“Can a Frum child be raised with no Frum friends to play with? Can a young mesivta bachur remain emotionally stable living thousands of miles away from his family?”
There are many people out there who do this, especially the second item, for far more mundane reasons. Seeing as a large portion of the children of Shluchim become Shluchim themselves, and Shlichus often runs in the family, the “young mesivta bochur” may have cousins etc. together with him in his dorm Yeshiva. Add to that the fact that these children are raised with a very strong ideological commitment to what they and their parents are doing, and they see their parents’ mesirus nefesh day in and day out, and that itself is an awesomely powerful chinuch by example. The children themselves grow up as little Shluchim teaching the other local kids.
“Especially, when the goals of kiruv have dropped dramatically in recent decades, should the FFB child’s emotional/spiritual health be sacrificed for low-return kiruv?”
Using business language when referring to Yiddishe Neshamos, ROI, sacrificing for gains, etc., is never a good idea. That certainly isn’t how Chabad look at it, but really anyone involved it outreach can also tell you the same thing. There is no heter to sacrifice one Neshama for another (indeed there are those who eschew any amount of outreach for that reason…), but there also is no such thing as “low-return kiruv”. One Jew doing one Mitzvah for one minute = יפה שעה אחת בתשובה ומעשים טובים בעולם הזה מכל חיי העולם הבא. That’s Pirkei Avos, not Chassidus. I’m sure they could tell you even more on this subject.
“I’m not referring to Kiruv in major Jewish cities, I’m focusing on the locations very far away from a functioning Frum community.”
Both things could be true at the same time. What about a major Russian city in Siberia with 10,000 Jews whose only connection to Judaism is through Chabad. The shlichim run the shul, Talmud Torah, all Jewish everything. Work around the clock, often more than one family involved. But very few if any local kids on their level of Jewish observance, at least for now. What about the same scenario right in hinterlands of the USA, but hours by car or possibly by plane from the nearest “normal” Frum community?
There is a beautiful series of children’s books (I got it for my kids in Hebrew, but I believe it is available in English also) about the life of the children of Chabad Shluchim in all kinds of far out places. Last I checked they have 10 books, with titles like “Moishie from Japan”, “Chanie from Wyoming”, “Mendy from Siberia”, etc. There are also a number of books from Shluchim who wrote memoirs of their experiences, some in Hebrew and some in English.
Non Political – “It’s very clear the RSRH did not consider his derech as something that had to be done “under the circumstances” akin to skiing, Rather he held that what he was advocating was the authentic Torah approach.”
It’s pretty well known that there actually was and is considerable debate among the ideological and even biological descendants of Rav Hirsch how much of his derech was לשעה and how much is לדורות. I can’t speak in his name, but it is hard to imagine that someone who spent most of his life and all of his energy battling Reform and Haskalah didn’t think Klal Yisroel wouldn’t have been better off if the whole thing wouldn’t have happened in the first place. It’s also clear that his derech isn’t how it was done in pre-Haskalah generations. One could say that “he held that what he was advocating was the authentic Torah approach” – to dealing with the new reality. There is no indication that RSRH ever intended to start a movement for Klal Yisroel and spread it far and wide.
This is really a whole sugya unto itself, which I wasn’t looking to go into. The point I was trying to make was that Rav Hirsch arrived on the scene after the fact as a “rescue worker”, when Haskalah in Germany was a fait accompli, as opposed to MMD, who did what he did when the Jewish world, even in Germany, was still largely innocent. Rav Hirsch was in fact “solving real problems”. MMD was spreading new problems to places where they didn’t exist yet.
Food for thought: It’s possible to fully agree with everything I wrote on this thread, and still be either a RSRH Jew, or a Religious Zionist, or a Satmar Chossid, or anything in between. I believe that everyone agrees in theory on the core issues I mentioned, the difference between those groups is where do you go from there moving forward.
AAQ – WRT the debate about MMD, what his role was, and whether his intentions were good or not.
(The analysis of MMD’s infamous ‘Biur’ is not mine. This is said over from Rav Mordechai Banet זצ״ל of Nicholsberg, who was a contemporary and close friend of the Chassam Sofer זצ״ל.)
(When assessing the impact of the Chassam Sofer, it is important to remember that “Germany” as a country didn’t exist at that time. The lands known as Moravia, Bohemia (later became Czechia and Slovakia), down the highlands of historical Hungary (“Oiberland”, which were later attached post WWI to those areas to create Czechoslovakia), as well as all of the various Germanic states, were all considered “Ashkenaz”. The Chassam Sofer and his talmidim had a huge impact on all of those places. Frankfurt itself only started really going downhill years after the Chassam Sofer had left.)
As I tried at length to explain to you, there is no comparison whatsoever between the Germany of MMD in the mid 18th century, and the Germany of Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch a century later. This doesn’t necessarily have to do with the debate on WHETHER “engaging modernity” is inherently good or bad, this is more about WHEN and HOW.
Let’s use a Mashal.
We can probably easily all agree on the following five statements:
1. Skiing can be fun, it can also be useful in a practical way to cross frozen terrain as well as to rescue people trapped under ice etc. in such terrain (which is probably how and why it was invented in the first place.)
2. Skiing in and of itself is not a Mitzvah or an Aveirah.
3. Skiing involves an element of danger, which requires considerable skill and vigilance on the part of the skier.
4. If the skier is not sufficiently skilled or careful, and doesn’t carefully follow the rules, skiing can be extremely dangerous and result in severe injury or death ר״ל.
5. For this reason, because there is no Mitzvah to davka go skiing, and there is a real element of risk, there are some Rabbonim who hold that action sports such as skiing are not so recommended from a Jewish point of view “just for fun”, unless there is some concrete תועלת to be gained. Ask your Rebbe for guidance למעשה. There are different legitimate approaches how much risk is appropriate, for who, and under what conditions.
(If there are any skiing fans here please forgive me. I believe that a young Bochur hanging out in the Bohemian intellectual circles of Berlin was actually far more dangerous than skiing, but the mashal still is useful.)
Now, step two:
1. Engaging modernity can be fun, it can also be useful in a practical way to cross spiritually frozen terrain as well as to rescue people trapped under spiritual ice etc. in such terrain (which is how and why it was used by Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch זצ״ל and others.)
2. Modernity in and of itself is not a Mitzvah or an Aveirah.
3. Engaging modernity involves an element of danger, which requires considerable skill and vigilance on the part of an Ehrliche Yid.
4. If the “skier” is not sufficiently skilled or careful, and doesn’t carefully follow the rules taught by the Chachomim and Gedolei Yisroel in each generation, engaging modernity can be extremely dangerous and result in severe spiritual injury or eternal death ר״ל.
5. For this reason, because there is no Mitzvah to davka engage with modernity, and there is a very real element of risk, the consensus of the Gedolei Yisroel then and now, is that it is a very bad idea from a Jewish point of view to indulge in spiritual “action sports” by immersing oneself in modernity “just for fun”, except to the minimum extent that there is some concrete תועלת to be gained (parnassah, outreach, tzorchei tzibbur, etc.) Ask your Rebbe for guidance למעשה. There are different legitimate approaches how much risk is appropriate, for who, and under what conditions.
Now, back to where we started:
Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch זצ״ל came on the scene when Germany had completely frozen over spiritually, and the only way he could reach people was by “skiing”. Everyone, including Satmar (as mentioned previously) holds that Rav Hirsch did exactly what he should have done UNDER THAT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES he was dealing with. The Baal Shem Tov זי״ע (who agav should never be referred to as the “Besht” which is a mocking term) built a huge furnace of “varemkeit” that helped save hundreds of thousands of Yidden from freezing in the first place. The Chassam Sofer זצ״ל and Reb Chaim Volozhiner זצ״ל built spiritual “greenhouses” where growing Neshomos could keep warm as they develop.
MMD came on the scene when even Germany itself was still home to thriving Jewish communities with deep Yiras Shomayim who carefully followed their Mesorah. He himself grew up is such an environment. It is also crucial to note that contrary to what you repeatedly imply, his interests weren’t stifled. His Rebbe learned with him Jewish works of philosophy, and he studied secular subjects and languages with two Frum tutors. But he didn’t stop for the red light. Despite all warnings, he went out on his own way, mingled with Goyim including hard-core apikorsim, and ended up as THE archetypal textbook example of how NOT to engage with modernity. He “fell off the slopes” and got his Neshoma mangled ר״ל. But that wasn’t enough for him, he wanted to “enlighten” Yidden like the ones who he grew up with and went to Yeshiva with, Yidden who AT THAT TIME had no need for “skiing”, and who were “immunonaive” to the viruses MMD was now thoroughly infected with.
Again, there were and are different approaches how do deal with “modernity” לאחר מעשה, but THEN that wasn’t yet the issue. Therefore the example of MMD became a lesson לדורות עולם what NOT to do.
SQUARE_ROOT – You’ll love this one:
BIZARRE BUT TRUE: J.D. Vance Convicted, Sentenced To Prison For Threatening To Kill President Trump
A fully accurate, in context quote…
HaKatan – “You don’t mention the reason they joined that conference: to make the point clear that Jews are not to be held responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do.”
The “point” that the big kinderlach joined that conference is the same “point” the little kinderlach make by throwing paper planes in class etc. – getting negative attention. It’s the same point as the kinderlach on this site who start new pyromaniac threads every other day knowing and almost begging that everyone else will jump on them and screed at them – craving for ATTENTION.
How about this “innocent” and “sincere” line:
“such a nice sweet yid.”
“I thought I would share his wise words.”
Knowing full well that other than three like-minded trolls EVERYONE here is likely to be upset by the Imam’s “wise words”. This is called “waving a red flag at the bull”. This type of provocative behavior is typical of kinderlach who crave attention and seek it in negative ways, including big kinderlach who never grew up.
None of this has anything to do with Zionism, which I am no fan of to put it mildly. This is about “antisocial personality disorder with elements of histrionic comorbidity”. Google it or ask a psychiatrist to explain it to you…
David – “However, the belief in a divinely-ordained exile that can only be ended by the Messiah contradicts many foundational principles of Jewish faith no less.”
Isn’t that one of the 13 Ikkarim of the Rambam? Don’t we say ומפני חטאנו גלינו מארצנו? Who in your opinion ordained that? What “foundational principles” does that contradict?
By the way, even according to the most extreme interpretation of the concept of Galus (Satmar approach to שלש שבועות etc., which is not necessary implied by the looser wording “Divinely ordained exile”), there is no issur to live in Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach comes. (If that is what you meant?)
somejew –
1. Do you get payed or otherwise compensated by the site owners to generate “clickbait”?
2. What were you מחדש with this “new” thread that hasn’t been beaten to death in the dozens of other threads on this same subject?
3. What is the נפקא מינה now, after the State was already founded 77 years ago, when millions of Yidden, many of whom couldn’t care less about “Zionism” now live there?
4. The Iranian cholerias your Imam likes to hang out with shot ballistic missiles with 1100 pound warheads at my town, visible and audible from my window, among other not nice things they like to do. Do you or the psychopath Imam you fawn over seriously believe they would be OK with the millions of Yidden in Eretz Yisroel if חס ושלום they got what they want ר״ל?
AAQ – Thanks for providing context to the quote. Things should be quoted in context. This raises a question about halochos of talmidei chachamim.
The Chazon Ish in question has nothing to do with Halachos of “Talmidei Chachamim”, or any policy WRT Yeshiva students. There is an apparent contradiction in the Gemara in the eighth Perek of Maseches Sotah WRT under what circumstances a Chosson can be “drafted” for military service in time of war. The Chazon Ish resolves the סתירה by explaining the two steps in the Gemara as referring to two different circumstances, and then qualifies under what conditions the פטור of שנה ראשונה would apply. No connection to the sensational nonsense SQUARE_ROOT or the YU professor are trying to prove.
Almost all of SQUARE_ROOT’s quotes, on all of his threads, are out of context, mainly because he never bothers to read them in their original sources, but only as excerpts in translation.
AAQ – The Vaad Hayeshivos has no problem with MARRIED yungeleit having drivers licenses. They don’t want BOCHURIM draying around too much at this point in their lives. As it is, that isn’t the unanimous policy of all Gedolei Yisroel, but in Israel most Yeshivos have such a rule.
AAQ said – “I am suggesting finding common position with others that are close to you, not the furthest enemies. With non-charedi religious Jews; with traditional sephardim; with political centrists, who can be convinced with the argument that HCJ stiffles democracy; with Russians whose anti-religious views are shaped in several generations by their prosecutors .. and I am not talking necessarily about their leaders, as most politicians are driven by self-interest, but by the voters themselves – find positions that unite you all. They might require some compromises – not of the Torah as you suggest, but of politics.”
Reb AAQ, with all due respect, you again show how unfamiliar you are with the reality of Israeli society. Most of those groups despise the SC Deep State, for their own reasons. Many of them were at the forefront of the protests two and a half years ago in favor of judicial reform, to no avail. The Deep State Histadrut threatened to shut down the Israeli economy if the people continue to “threaten democracy”. Orwell would have been proud. Even the elected government could do nothing. As far as your pipe dreams about finding “positions that unite”, that isn’t possible on the national level. The Chareidi parties as a matter of principle don’t interfere in issues not related to Torah and Mitzvos. They didn’t even participate in the demonstrations for judicial reform, despite the obvious benefits such reform would bring the Chareidim. The only thing we want is to keep the Torah as interpreted and taught by our Torah leaders. If Stalin ימ״ש would have been OK with that, then we would have been OK with him. As it happens, he wasn’t… But there is no inherent “value added” from the Chareidi perspective to having a democracy, or even a “Jewish State”, except as a היכא תמצא to keep the Torah.
None of this has to do with the interpersonal level, or even the local level, where there is much positive interaction between Chareidim (individuals and organizations) with non-Chareidim of all sorts. But on the national level, you have a small but disproportionately powerful group who want to force their Progressive ideas on the majority, and they (correctly) see the growing Chareidi population as the biggest obstacle to their goals. They don’t fear or even care about public opinion, because they aren’t elected and can do as they please, up to and including shutting down the country and harassing the PM with endless lawfare to the point that he is afraid to do anything that might upset them. This isn’t about politics, and cannot be remedied through politics, we are way past that stage. והקדוש ברוך הוא מצילנו מידם
ujm – So you are saying that until it can be proven that NK is directly responsible for Yidden actually getting killed ר״ל it’s OK to say in public the things they say? What about ספק נפשות?
ujm – Is it possible to use bold or italics on this site? That would be easier to see. I did spell out in writing that I was quoting AAQ.
SQUARE_ROOT – This is the article that I quoted from…
You made an outrageous claim in the name of the Chazon Ish, while admitting that you don’t own a copy of Chazon Ish, and have never read the quote inside. Some people did read the Chazon Ish, and your whole argument falls apart upon reading what is actually written there. We couldn’t care less what some nobody wrote on VIN. If all you claimed you were doing is quoting some troll who posts on VIN, so say so. If you claim to speak in the name of the Chazon Ish himself, you had better do your homework…
AAQ – Continued from previous post:
You seem to have a theory that all of the challenges to Yiddishkeit emerged out of nowhere as some sort of “sociological phenomenon”, and automatically you cluck your tongue at “those Rabbis” (היכי דמי אפיקורוס האומר ״הני רבנן״) who in your opinion “did nothing” or “didn’t come up with an alternative”. The reality is that throughout the generations the Rabbonim, Chachomim, Tzaddikim, Gedolei Hador worked their entire lives to strengthen Yiddishkeit, each in his own way according to the challenges they faced. In EVERY SINGLE GENERATION, from Moshe Rabbeinu on down, there were people who complained and thought the Gedolim “weren’t doing enough”, they didn’t like their solution, they had taanos on things they did etc. That is the job of the Yetzer Hara, to make sure people don’t listen to the Chachamim, and those people were the ones who were lost ר״ל. This world is a world of challenges, and you can’t always have your cake and eat it. Listening to Gedolei Yisroel helps overcome those challenges, but it doesn’t make them disappear.
chiefshmerel – If you read the whole piece from start to finish, the whole joke doesn’t even get started. Your ״קל וחומר״ is also not correct. The פטור of תלמידי חכמים is stronger than that of someone who planted a vineyard… In fact, תלמידי חכמים are even exempt from taxes to PAY for the army. If you want to kler about who is a Talmid Chacham, I think that the weakest yeshiva bochur has more shaychus to being a Talmid Chacham than the IDF has shaychus to the Real Jewish Army of Dovid Hamelech or Yehoshua… At any rate, SQUARE_ROOT, who by his own admission doesn’t even own a copy of Chazon Ish, doesn’t know more about the shittos of the Chazon Ish than the current Roshei Yeshiva do. They do have their own copy of the Sefer… A few of the older Roshei Yeshiva learned from the Chazon Ish himself when he was still alive, and most received a living Mesorah from his close talmidim, most of whom were still alive until not that long ago. No need for YU professors to teach them…
SQUARE_ROOT – The Chazon Ish is explicit, with no conditions, no caveats.
Just close the Gemara and stand up to save Israel immediately.
Nothing more to add._________________________________________
Can anyone tell us where we can read this on the internet for free?Can anyone tell us where we can read this on HebrewBooks (dot) org?
Can anyone tell us where we can find a physical copy of this book?
Those of us who DO have a physical copy of the Seforim of the Chazon Ish aren’t impressed by your screeds. The piece was not written with regard to the IDF, but to resolve an apparent contradiction in the Gemara in Maseches Sotah WRT Milchemes Mitzvah. The part of the Chazon Ish you omitted DOES add MULTIPLE conditions and caveats when this applies (thereby explaining why in one place the Gemara says one thing, and in another place appears to say something else), even when discussing a REAL JEWISH ARMY = מלחמות בית דוד with a משוח מלחמה etc. By the way, the Gemara there, and hence the Chazon Ish, ISN’T talking about תלמידי חכמים, ONLY about a Chosson during Shana Rishona, or someone who built a house or planted a vineyard. All of this is very easy to see IF YOU ACTUALLY BOTHER TO READ THE QUOTE INSIDE THE SEFER WITH THE CONTEXT.
AAQ – Yya, I am glad that you criticized just one person on my list! Or maybe you are just starting..
I had no intention of criticizing the rest of your list, although I don’t think it’s derech eretz to mix together like that (not to mention without proper honorifics for anyone).
By the way, you may be surprised to find out, Rav Shamshon Refael Hirsch זצ״ל is highly respected by – Satmar… He was very tough on Reform, Maskilim, etc., his Austritt/separation policy had much in common with the Hungarian/Satmar approach to similar issues, and (although this is less known, and deliberately ignored by some of those who like to quote him) he was strongly opposed to Zionism…
the reason Mendelssohn is first on the list is because he was earlier.
He wasn’t. Learn some history. The Baal Shem Tov זי״ע was born 31 years earlier and was already active long before him. הקדוש ברוך הוא מקדים רפואה למכה. The rest of the list isn’t in chronological order either.
Is downfall of his generation his fault?
The consensus of Gedolei Yisroel then and now is yes. And it is considered HIS PERSONAL fault – על חטאות ירבעם אשר חטא ואשר החטיא את ישראל
Mendelssohn tried to offer something to respond to the situation the best way he knew. Those who did nothing didn’t really help more.
You keep on mixing up the chicken and the egg. Before addressing this upside down and backwards statement, it is necessary to lay down the facts of what was going on, and in what order.
You repeatedly portray Mendelssohn as “trying to solve a problem”. First of all, what “problem” was Mendelssohn trying to “solve”? When he came on the scene the vast majority of German Jewry was still loyal to Torah. There were individuals, mainly from the wealthy class in the big cities, who flirted with secular ideas and philosophies already then, but not in large numbers. That is not where MMD began his career, and he most certainly didn’t see such activity as a problem, because he himself took it to a far “higher” level. He was an ilui from a poor family who learned in the Yeshiva of the great gaon R’ Dovid Frankel זצ״ל, author of Korban Ha’edah on the Yerushalmi. When his Rebbe became Rov in Berlin he moved with him. The move to the great intellectual and cultural center that Berlin was (at the age of 14…) afforded him opportunities to “broaden his horizons” behind his Rebbe’s back, and he studied many fields of secular knowledge, eventually befriending many of the local intellectuals. (At some point in this process he left the Yeshiva. When exactly is not clear.) He ended up growing to become a very brilliant (both in Torah and secular wisdom, but unfortunately without putting a להבדיל in between…) scholar, who was “Orthoprax” in his behavior, but had very krum hashkafos. Unlike the ordinary assimilated Jews up to that point, who possessed little if any Torah knowledge and had little in common with the as-yet “Heimishe” (even in Germany) Yidden, MMD was a brilliant Lamdan who was fully versed in the world of the Beis Hamedrash and the Torah observant Jews, which is the world where he came from in the first place. He wasn’t content to keep his ideas to himself, and he thought of ways to “enlighten” his erstwhile brethren back in the Chadarim and Batei Midrashos he grew up in.
Stopping the narrative here, to give you a moment to pause and think. AT NO POINT EVER DID MENDELSSOHN DO ANYTHING TO BE “MEKAREV” THE ASSIMILATED JEWS OF BERLIN. That was never the point for him, and no one then or later, religious or secular, ever claimed that he was even trying to do anything of the sort. The whole idea that he was some sort of “Kiruv” figure is purely a figment of your imagination, because you seem to automatically conflate any figure “straddling two worlds” with other (later) figures who DID do that לשם שמים in order to be mekarev people.
So what was MMD actually up to? (This is agreed upon by all accounts, contemporary and later, religious and secular. The only debate between the religious and secular contemporaries and historians is whether this was a good thing or a bad thing.) HE WAS TRYING TO BE “MEKAREV” THE FRUM JEWS TO SECULAR KNOWLEDGE AND PHILOSOPHY. One of the projects he undertook In order to achieve that goal, was to translate the Chumash into German (transliterated into Hebrew letters…) That raised a huge furor. To your mind that sounds no less innocuous than ArtScroll, making Torah accessible to the masses etc. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT WAS GOING ON THEN. The Jewish masses then, even in Germany, were perfectly capable of reading Chumash in the original, or with the help of Yiddish “Teitsh”. Assimilated Proper German speakers typically could read the secular alphabet. So who exactly needed a translation in Proper German using Hebrew letters? אלא מאי, the whole point was to TEACH THE SHTETL YIDDEN PROPER GERMAN, so they would eventually be able to read Goyish books on their own, which is how MMD himself began his own voyage of discovery to the “wonderful world of knowledge” he sought to share with his former brethren.
He also wrote a “Biur” on the aforementioned Chumash, where he cleverly blended together the classic Meforshim, while omitting those aspects of Emunah he didn’t quite feel comfortable with. For example, on those Pesukim that Rashi explains as referring to Moshiach and the Geulah, he switches to the Ibn Ezra. But where the Ibn Ezra learns is the source for Moshiach etc. in Chumash, he switches back to Rashi… So the reader can go through all of Chumash without seeing anything about the Final Redemption (one example, there are others), yet TECHNICALLY every comment in the book TAKEN BY ITSELF is word for word from Kosher sources… Sort of like SQUARE_ROOT writing a Yalkut of Chareidi Zionism… but far more clever. This was a whole new level of trickery, which MMD apparently held was a justifiable means to be “mezakeh” = mazik the “poor benighted masses”.
If there was any doubt during MMD’s lifetime as to just how bad an apple he really was, you can easily read about what happened to his family and followers within one generation… I will not pollute this site with the details. Much in common with Herzl’s family, except Herzl ימ״ש was an open atheist from the get-go, whereas MMD was ostensibly Shomer Mitzvos his entire life, which makes it more shocking. Actually, it would have been far better for Klal Yisroel if MMD had in fact “done nothing”, which unfortunately was not the case.
Maybe those rabbis who opposed him but didn’t offer better solutions are also at fault?
Again, MMD was NOT trying to “solve” the problem of assimilation or “confronting modernity” (which didn’t exist yet for 95% of German Jews). He was trying to SPREAD modernity and secular knowledge to Jews who still had no access to it. Thanks to him, within a generation it would become necessary to come up with “better solutions”. Some of the other names on your list did just that. You forgot the Chassam Sofer, born in Frankfurt, who was one of the biggest opponents to MMD and his projects, and built Yeshivos and taught Talmidim who revitalized Ashkenaz/Oiberland Jewry. So, yes, that was a “better solution”. Chassidus, which began to take off at that time, was a “better solution”. The Volozhin Yeshiva was a “better solution”.
So, I think then that the next part falls apart ממילא:
“Mendelssohn tried to offer something to respond to the situation the best way he knew. Those who did nothing didn’t really help more.”
The VERY BEST thing he could have done AT THAT POINT IN HISTORY would be to do nothing. He anyway did nothing to be Mekarev those few who were already assimilated, and his entire focus was on spreading “enlightenment” as an ideal, to people and places where it had not reached yet.
If you or I were there, we would not do better.
It’s hard to imagine how it would have been possible to do worse. If you mean his personal nisayon as a super-ilui who lost his father at a young age and found his own way in life, so yes, that’s a tough nisayon. Whether that somehow mitigates his matzav wherever he is now, is Hashem’s business. But I don’t think that’s what you are referring to.
Just try to put yourself into that situation without your current knowledge.
What you are actually doing is “projecting”, i.e. putting your “current knowledge” of a post-MMD world “into that situation” to create an imaginary anachronistic “problem” that MMD was כאילו “trying to solve”. You then try to tell me to “put myself into a situation” that didn’t exist at that point. Try to brush up on the actual history without injecting your current knowledge. It is actually a damning testimony to MMD’s “success” that so many people can’t imagine that there once was a world where the vast majority of Jews were Shomrei Mitzvos, and that is how it was for most of our history. Weaknesses and Yetzer Hara always existed. Individuals or even movements who went OTD always existed. But the bulk of Klal Yisroel remained loyal to the Torah. It’s hard to find any parallel to MMD since Yeravam ben Nevat, but the Ovdei Avodah Zarah back then kept the other Mitzvos, they just indulged in the Taavah of AZ which we no longer have, so it isn’t a full comparison either. We see from the Gemara that Achav’s kitchen was Glatt Kosher.
ujm – I don’t think Nadler knows the difference between Satmar and NK. You barely do…
AAQ – Try to create a position that unites more people around it. That might mean changing yours a little bit.
What is נוגע to Yiddishkeit is not negotiable. As far as we’re concerned anything else is just a היכא תמצא how to keep the Yiddishkeit. If the SC would be FOR Yiddishkeit, we have no problem with the lack of democracy per se. The REALITY (a word Yankel Berel and I wish you would begin to understand) is that the SC/AG Junta are THE wedge dividing Israeli society, on all issues, and they will not relinquish power on their own. There is also no legal recourse to remove them from power because Israel has no constitution. You have to understand that Israel is currently a junta dictatorship. The ruling junta allows the elected government some freedom of action to maintain the charade of democracy, but they retain unchecked power to strike down any government decision they don’t agree with.
I just noticed this thread. The opening quote has no shaychus to “The modern State of Israel”, which no one dreamed of during the lifetime of the Tiferes Shlomo. (The reference to “Arabs” is also not an issue. The Turks, who followed the religion started by Arabs, were commonly referred to by Jews as “Yishmaelim”.)
Idea for new threads:
1. SQUARE_ROOT posts some out of context quote from Gedolim of previous generations supposedly contradicting the current Chareidi positions on controversial issues, usually relating to the matzav in Israel where most of the commentors don’t live, and have limited knowledge of the facts on the ground. It is strongly implied that today’s Gedolei Yisroel somehow are unaware of the “secret information” picked up by SQUARE_ROOT (usually in English translation from a secondhand source.)
2. Immediately ujm, someJew, and HaKatan jump into the fray with hyperbolic comments about dismantling the State, oaths, kofrim, etc. None of which is necessary for demolishing the fake טענות of SQUARE_ROOT.
3. The more levelheaded commenters then engage ujm etc. in weeks-long debate about theoretical issues that may have been relevant before the founding of the State, but no longer have any practical נפקא מינה. Again, none of this has anything to do with the starting comment.
4. So is born YET ANOTHER “not-really-Zionist-anyway” vs. “hyper-anti-Zionist” verbal MMA match with no תכלית…
5. The site owners make money from clickbait.
6. Wash, rinse, repeat.
There is no need to go to the “Oaths” issue nowadays. לכל הדעות there is no prohibition for an individual to move here, then or now, and there is no chiyuv for the tzibbur to leave once they got here. There are also many reasons to be opposed to various aspects of the State and some of its institutions that have nothing to do with the oaths. So what is the point of the debate?
Speaking of Menachem Begin, he had more אהבת התורה and respect for תלמידי חכמים than many MO/RZ, and even some who are ostensibly “Chareidi”… The professor who wrote the book quoted here seems to imply that he himself also has less respect for the same people Begin did respect… This from someone purporting to write a book about – the Shittos of the Chazon Ish… Like they say, you can’t make this stuff up. Thank you SQUARE_ROOT for the free comedy.
(By the way, Gedolei Yisroel past and present knew all of the quotes you so love to post here… But they also knew a few other things you prefer to omit…)
Thank you Yankel Berel. The real change began in the mid-90s when the Barak SC began forcing the IDF to adapt Progressive ideas of “gender integration”. There is zero connection between the situation the Chazon Ish was dealing with and the situation today. There were also other ways of avoiding IDF service then and now… The increase in “Torato Umanuto” exemptions after ’77 doesn’t mean that those people would have gone to the IDF, just they would have to be more creative… How do thousands of Eidah Yerushalmim etc. get out of the IDF, without even registering their Mosdos with the Medinah? That didn’t change at all, then or now. (Hint – the IDF aren’t stupid, but they really don’t want them…)
It is also very interesting when a MO professor, publishing through YU Press, all of a sudden is very interested in the Chazon Ish and his Shittos in Daas Torah. Don’t you think that is a little odd Reb SQUARE_ROOT?
Another question. If there is or ever was a real operational need for drafting Chareidim, why is it that the calls for doing so never come from the IDF leadership itself? Why is this primarily being spearheaded by the SC/AG and friends? (Hint – see above hint…)
It is an oft-repeated canard that masses of Chareidim who don’t actually learn benefit from the “Torato Umanuto” exemption. According to the Institute for Democracy in Israel, no friend of the Chareidim AT ALL, the real numbers are far lower. Within the age group expected (by Chareidi standards) to still be single, the numbers are over 90% (according to the IDI, a think tank hostile to Chareidim who analyzed the data to figure out better ways to hurt the Chareidim through sanctions…) From the age of marriage, the number goes down (what a shock.) In the last year before age 26 (when they will anyway be allowed to work legally within a year) up to 25% (again, according to hostile analysts with an explicit agenda to besmirch the Chareidim) do in fact work illegally. Which of course means that (at least) 75% are still actually learning full time even at that age. I suspect that the 25% who don’t probably married earlier like many Chassidim, and could already have several kids to support at age 26.
AAQ – Israeli SC “vetos” CANNOT be overridden by a supermajority. That was one of the key points being debated during the protests for and against judicial reform. The problem is that the Israeli SC gave itself de facto the powers of the President of the United States, where every law and every appointment automatically needs their approval or veto. An unelected body having such power is unheard of in any democracy. It actually gives them almost king-like power, since there is no way to challenge them or impeach them, and they have no fear of public opinion.
AAQ – I hear you, but do you think Avraham would send Eliezer if he were able to zoom in to Lavan and settle it himself?
That segues into the separate question of why Avraham didn’t go himself. There are different answers in the Meforshim. Zoom, or telephones for that matter, don’t add any input into the decision making process. They just make things technically easier. Ditto for AI self-driving cars, or regular cars (and planes), unless you have Kefitzas Haderech like Eliezer.
It is actually ironic – that Avraham leaves his elderly father in Suria [several meforshim explain why he has a right/obligation to listen to this tzivui despite a general mitzva of kibud av) and then has to send a shaliach to fetch a wife for his son from there. I don’t know what to do with this observation …
Terach wasn’t alive at this point anyway. We don’t find Avraham criticized for leaving him, and he apparently wasn’t happy with having to do that, which apparently was itself part of the nisayon of Lech Lecha – מבית אביך. We do find that Avraham held that his extended family were still better than the Canaanite local yokels.
By analogy – would you say that having Siyata Dishmaya for a trip requires a driver and a self-driving car will not lead to a successful trip? We do have such thinking in mezuza writing, etc
I think Shidduchim are closer to Mezuzah writing as opposed to simply a technical activity such as driving etc. We have to always remember that Hashem is so great that He can help us DESPITE our hishtadlus…
ZSK – I was merely pointing out that NK would have more backing from larger swaths of the Orthodox Jewish community if they completely changed direction and tune, focusing on those issues mentioned rather than denouncing the State, especially together with people who would absolutely murder Jews if they could get away with it.
I think we agree completely on the issues in this thread, but I didn’t have a הוה אמינא of trying to “fix” the current NK, or even the commenters who insist on defending them.
ujm – “Everyone knows the Neteurei Karta are Litvaks and from the Talmidei HaGRA.”
They WERE, they aren’t now. Today’s NK are not Litvaks, and not even Yerushalmim. They are mixed nuts who were kicked out of their communities for various reasons… and take out their bitterness and psychosis on Klal Yisroel. Just stop this silly game and call it a day.
AAQ – but how is relying on an algorithm is different from relying on a shadchan?
I wrote already, but to repeat – a Tzelem Elokim with a Neshama who believes באמונה שלמה that Hashem is the real מזווג זווגים, and that he (the shadchan or whoever) is only doing some hishtadlus to be “yotzei gevein”, can be zocheh to Siyata Dishmaya from the Real Shadchan. (See this week’s Parshah…) Someone who relies on a clever algorithm or AI bot or whatever is just a more tech-savvy “matronita”.
AAQ – I am מוחה on you putting Mendelsohn ימח שמו וזכרו at the head of a list (or in the same sentence altogether) including (some of them) the names of קדושי עליון who fought against everything he stood for and worked to mitigate or undo the damage and טומאה that he unleashed on Klal Yisroel. I suspect that even Saul Lieberman would be repulsed by such a thing, certainly Rav Kook.
You also have a krum attitude of blaming things on “sociological phenomena”, as opposed to the גברא who set those things in motion. That is not the Torah hashkafah. Yeravam ben Nevat gets full “credit” for his actions, even though it says in Sefer Devarim multiple times that the Shevatim would eventually worship avodah zarah, and Chazal say befairush that even though it would have happened anyway, Yeravam still bears full responsibility. So does the ימח שמו׳ניק “problem solver” of yours. He wasn’t solving a problem, he was creating a bigger problem. Were there others also going in that direction? Yes. That doesn’t get him off the hook.
There is also the concept of מגלגלין זכות על ידי זכאי. If he would have been a זכאי who just made some innocent mistakes, it wouldn’t have gone where it did. All of his descendants becoming משומדים, going insane, or committing suicide, with no zecher in Klal Yisroel, says something about who he really was. (Same goes for Herzl ימח שמו)
As for your insinuation that in real time it would be difficult to tell the difference, without going into the whole sugya, but just one small piece of advice: Tell me who his friends were, and you told me who he was. You can Google and find out who his friends were…
ZSK – The point was that there is no connection between the present day NK and the different organization by the same name led decades ago by Rav Amram Blau. Not the ideology, not the causes being protested, not the methods used. Nothing.
Even the protests back then were in a different context altogether. Most of the people being protested against were not תינוקות שנשבו, to put it mildly, and fully understood what was going on. That is no longer true today. Many of those protests were against Chilul Shabbos and breaches of tzniyus in and around Chareidi areas of Yerushalayim, by people with an agenda to davka do those things there, not often the case today.
Gadolhadorah and AAQ – There is something called Siyata Dishmaya that a Tzelem Elokim acting in good faith can be worthy of attaining, and a computer algorithm perhaps not so. Hashem is still the מזווג זווגים. How many people do you know whose shidduch would never have made it past the AI Bot? IMHO, a lot of the difficulties in shidduchim today are because people are afraid to think even slightly out of the box. An AI Shadchan Bot, would essentially be based on matching boxes, not thinking outside of them.
AAQ – The Midrash doesn’t say how she made her decisions. ShadchanBot TM would presumably try to line up ‘checklists’ as much as possible. That may sometimes work, and sometimes not. There is a lot to delve into this Midrash, because lemaaseh most shidduchim not made by Neviim usually don’t involve direct input from the Ribbono Shel Olam… So what was Rabbi Yossi really saying? The matron presumably wasn’t stupid either, so what was her hava amina and what was her maskona? I believe that the point of the Midrash is that when a person believes and understands that Hashem is the real Shadchan, then he merits a Siyata Dishmaya, which someone with the attitude of the matron would not have. Someone relying on a computer program instead of the Ribbono Shel Olam is just a more technologically sophisticated ‘matronita’.
AAQ – Actually there is a lot to learn from the sad story of Saul Lieberman. About what happens when very smart people (who may think they are smarter than the Gedolei Hador, and in his case could credibly back up such a claim with actual geonus to some extent) come up with very clever ideas of how to save Klal Yisroel by integrating and compromising… What became of that?
ujm – When HaRav Amram Blau was imprisoned in 1953 for protesting Chillul Shabbos, the Chazon Ish came to visit him…
There is a crucial point that is being ignored here, and which makes this whole 117 post debate completely irrelevant. Rav Amram Blau זצ״ל was a big kanoi, but his shittah was not in sync with Satmar. NK began within the Yerushalmi branch of Agudah. They were NOT opposed to settling the Land etc., they were ONLY focused on issues of Shabbos, Tzniyus, and avoiding any connection with the Reshaim = Secular Zionists. They DID NOT hold of the שלש שבועות shittah, so much so that they were OK with being part of Agudah… This puts Rav Amram Blau in the same Hashkafic category as Rav Akiva Shlesinger, who was IN FAVOR of mass immigration, building settlements, etc., but MAKING SURE TO DO IT ALL על טהרת הקודש. Rav Amram himself was very close with R’ Velvel Brisker whose own shittah was very similar. Do you notice that ALL OF THE STORIES ABOUT RAV AMRAM BLAU ARE ABOUT SHABBOS PROTESTS or tzniyus or similar issues. The opposition to the State was because of all the Rishus the State did, and he of course held that voting or participation in any way was considered associating with Reshaim, NOT NECESSARILY because of the ‘Shevuos’. This was so much so, that a later leader of the post-R’ Amram NK said openly that “WE NEVER FORGAVE HIM FOR MIXING OTHER ISSUES INTO THE KANAUS” = for NOT emphasizing the Satmar shittah (that he didn’t really hold of, at least for the first few decades of his activity.)
Fast forward – The ‘Modern’ NK post 1960 has been completely taken oven by the Satmar ideology in THEORY, WITHOUT the limits the Divrei Yoel imposed IN PRACTICE = not demonstrating with Goyim, etc. You will NEVER see them protesting Chilul Shabbos, pritzus, or ANYTHING OTHER THAN the EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, not any particular mehalech the State should or shouldn’t do. (מה שאין כן real Satmar do protest those issues, and even their demonstrations in Manhattan etc. are ISSUE oriented, e.g. for the draft gezeros etc.) The PLO or the Iranians (and some of the NK themselves…) don’t care about chilul Shabbos. This doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with Rav Amram Blau זצ״ל, and not much to do with Satmar either for that matter. Certainly zero shaychus whatsoever with the Steipler or the Chazon Ish.
KGN and AAQ – The PM isn’t the problem, this is 100% the SC and company.
ujm – I’m not comparing the two, but rather making a broader point. Saul Lieberman was also a so-called “talmid chochom”. Yet Mr. Lieberman was an apikorus. Being very book smart (in Jewish holy books) doesn’t mean much in some cases.
Are you sure he was? From what I understand, he personally was fully Orthodox his entire life, but he thought he could keep the Conservative movement close to Mitzvah observance. That project obviously failed.
ujm – In truth, Shabbos itself is now in prison.
Shabbos in prison, not Iran in prison. Stop dragging the name of Rav Amram זצ״ל through the mud of the phony NK2025.
As was suggested several years ago, just allow an AI Chatbot to review all the pending shidduch resumes and match them electronically and eliminate the useless intermediaries.
Cool idea. That would probably end up like the story of Rabbi Yossi ben Chalafta and the Roman matron…
AAQ – I think R Hirsh means that Yitzhak needed to observe people who think differently, not just those who were already talmidei Avraham.
The thousands of yokels who walked in the door for the free food were not yet “Talmidei Avraham”, and most probably didn’t end up ‘going all the way’. Probably more like a Chabad House, and less like a Yeshivah.