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@AAQ
your naivete is shining through again …
to quote such a groundbreaking sefer ha ikarim from a ‘secondary source’ without verifying that it actually does say such a huge hidush in an unambiguous way , is plain naive ….
this is not meant as a mean comment …
.
how many times are people going to fall for the same untruth ?
steipler is NOT referring to the neturei karta as we are
thats clear to any careful reader
he is addressing the issue of VOTING ONLY
he uses the term neturei karta to describe the hevrei ha’eida
thats all
there is no reference whatsoever to any of the unsavory tactics of those neturei karta as they are known
.
.this is a milhemet mitsva – not to agree to forced enlistment
and we cannot back down .
ish et re’ehu yazoru ule’achiv yomar chazak !
et l’asot lashem !
.
.I do not understand .
which part of my post re galut is inaccurate ?
and why cant we work with what I wrote ?
.
.@yaakov yosef
I am not serious ….
I cannot stand ideological straightjackets .
posters like katan and somejew from one side and posters like evalemoshiv and square on the other side
all have their agendas and they push them irrespective of the real world realities and the inevitable consequences their so called solutions will engender
they are doing so blindly and therefore are dangerous
baruch hashem we still have special people amongst us gdolei yisrael who can help us navigate these very difficult issues.
.
.maybe I mentioned this once already – habad theology reminds me of climate change and chinese influence
all three advance unseen until they suddenly dominate the world …
.
.anything I wrote is derived from hazal and sefarim kdoshim
I did not make anything up and I cannot see any reason why you should reject anything I mentioned
if you have a reason as to what and why you find anything objectionable please state what it is and why
in the absence of the above I cannot see why we cannot work with all these aspects of galut I mentioned ?
.
.Avi k
you are mixing issues
RMF halachically [!] disagreed with those who assered giving back land even bimkom pikuach nefesh . nothing to do with the principle of datt torah
there was no ‘psak’ by r ch’o about shanghai at any time
by the way rch’o was niftar just weeks after the soviets marched into vilna
before the yeshiva moved from lithuania
daat torah was never invented
it exists only to the extent that there are sources in the torah supporting it
and cannot be an invention if thereare sources for it
.
.so am trying again :
my mistake of peshat in my learning is kefira be’ikar ?
beit shamai according to beit hillel is kefira be’ikar ?
???
The point is that Lubavichers face the same problem. I’m sure that many recognize the issues that we’ve brought to the fore, but they feel that they can’t say or do anything or they’ll face ostracism.
—
that’s an overly rosy view in my opinion …
the lubavichers are hamstrung ,but not because of the fear of ostracism
it is because they cannot accept , under any circumstance , that their rebbi should be mistaken , anytime , on any topic whatsoever
and it is that irrational belief which is the foundation and the singular source of their continuous conundrum
on all of their so called ‘issues’ which are brought up , they are able to point to utterances or writings of their “infallible” rebbi which are a valid source for their mistaken and problematic belief
even though that their rebbi himself is not able to point to any preceding source to validate his opinion
the very minute that a habadi is willing to accept the possibility that his leader , even while being great man , erred , is the very minute of his salvation
otherwise we will continue to go round and round in the same merry go round without any solution whatsoever
.
.
.Ok –I read somejews last post now , will redefine my post now and use his terminology
to summarize the above conversation , according to the staipler :
belief in trinity is —kfira be’ikar
belief in reform is —kfira be’ikar
.
.shitat beit shmai according to beit hillel is —a mistake
but not kfira be’ikarwhen I learn a gemara and learn the wrong peshat it is —a mistake
but not kfira be’ikarbelief in athaltah di geoula is —a mistake
but not kfira be’ikar.
.
.OPEN LETTER TO EVALEMOSHIVLO
I would like to make a suggestion based on RAMBAM . Yes, I am suggesting preparing Orthodox Israeli Jewry for mass Yeridah, and I even have a plan.
Send a delegation for a series of meetings with Government Ministers. (Yes non Jewish Ministers)
Say to them, we are preparing our communities for mass Yeridah.
We want our communities and their families to be able to live near one another and to retain our culture, our educational system etc. We need proper and adequate employment and social services. We need shuls, schools, yeshivos, seminaries, etc.
It can be done. There are large empty expanses of land – in Chuts la’arets .
Yeridah has many challenges but when done together, it’s a whole different story.
I know that I’ll be hit in the face with all sorts of hashkafos that serve the purpose of easing guilt over staying put, but times have changed.
Our precious youth in Israel are hunted by a mafia-like unelected clique , like some sort of criminals.
This is totally unacceptable and unsustainable .
We cannot foresee the results of this unprecedented and evil witch hunt .
WE MUST HAVE A PLAN B!
We MUST seriously consider mass yeridah , for the sake of the Jewish Nation’s eternal future !
.
.
.as continuation of previous post
there is more than one type / level of galut
there is the galut of being far from EY
there is the galut of lacking a BHMK
there is the galut of lacking the shehina
there is the galut of physical tsarot as a result of shibud malhuyot to varying degrees , different in various locales and times
there is the galut as manifested as power of the se’or sheba’issa which seems to hold the world in its clutches
there are so many aspects and levels of this overarching word galut that it is very difficult to encapsulate it in one or 2 words
the truth is that it is all of the above and probably even more
.
.
hope we agree on this and previous post ….
.
.re galut
gemara baba batra 8A [if remember correctly] says that limud hatorah if on high level will bring mashiach
if on lower level will reduce shibud malhuyot in the form of easier taxes on the jews
and if on even lower level then the taxes of the shibud malhuyot will be crushing
we see that there are different levels of shibud malhuyot
the jew in the present USA is in galut
the jew under the czar in the 1800’s was also in galut
but lo harei zeh keharei zeh ….
.
.bottom line
wrong pshat in gemara
an everyday occurrence by many people … is definitely NOT kfira ……
.
.@aaq
where is sefer ikarim ‘lenient’ about mistakes in core beliefs ?
.
.@AAQ
this comes from talmidei rav chaim ozer
.
.
btw – I myself heard from a witness who saw emrei emet talking to REW for over two hours in marienbad in 1937those who knew emrei emet , say that this was almost unheard of that he should spend so much time with someone
REW was an adam gadol me’od .
.
.@avi k
that tour was when rav kook was still rav of jafo
before he moved to the newly established rabanut rashit
.if not mistaken rav sonnefeld called him by the title of ‘the yafo rav’ even when he was already rav rashi in yerusalem
.every fact has to placed and considered within its context
otherwise the wrong impression is given
.by the way – it was the hilul hayadut that the so called neturei karta of the staiplers letter protested against what the staipler was praising
hilul shabat – pritsut – hilul kvarim – nituchei metim – chinuch likfira etc etc
not of any protests against the mere existence of the medina
there was no praise from him about that
he specifically mentions hizuk layahadut
nothing about their role in protesting against existence of the medina
.
.re rav kook— its not rav elyashiv the young bachur who is taken as proof
although rav elyashiv as chatan not a young bachur , probably could put many, many elderly people to shame …
it is rather his father and mechutan rav avrham elyashiv and rav aryeh levin the tsadiq of yerushalayim and the leshem his grandfather
who were ok with rav kook as mesader kidushin
and rav elyashiv himself as nonagerian who protested at any slight bichvodo shel rav kook
—
the difference between you and other commenters is that you cannot acknowledge any type of nuance
while reality and the whole world is full of nuances
.
.rav kook was controversial – yes
many disagreed with him – yes
many criticized him – yes
but at the same time – many held of him
and that is the meaning of the word ‘controversial’
why cant you acknowledge that ?
.rav shlomo zalman took his haskama for his ma’adanei erets and for his me’orei haeish
his son rav shmuel did not let the printers omit his haskama
these are facts and should be acknowledged
like the clear praise the emrei emet lavished on him – even while criticizing him in the same breath
.why do you insist on communist style censoring ?
.
.for your knowledge a picture of the leshem adorned the hafets hayims home …
.
.anyone who carefully reads the Steiplers letter will see his intent
the question was very clear
it was regarding participation in israeli elections
where the camps are delineated
on one hand – there is the aguda [then] which now includes shas degel and ets , who all agree in principle to the heter [or hiyuv] of participation
on the other hand – there is the edah haredit and the kana’im who all agree to the total issur of participation irrespective to any potential gains – it is non negotiable assur and that’s it
the answer given is clearly to follow the aguda approach and not the edah approach
qualified by the clear statement that the edah approach and their people are needed , chaviv , chashuv and should not change their shita
that is in essence the whole tshuva by the steipler
at no point in this tshuva does he discuss participation in holocaust denying conferences
nor participation in sonei yisrael demonstrations
he does employ the word neturei karta but it is abundantly clear from the context that he is not referring to any of the people who happen to demonstrate with sonei yisrael
or travel to holocaust denial meetings
he is referring to people who consider israeli elections as part of the 3 averot hamurot and therefore assur unconditionally.
all those who are really looking for the emet , will agree to what I wrote …
.
.
.have you read the titles rav mibrisk wrote to rav kook ?
have you read the titles the ba’al haleshem wrote to rav kook ?
both were written to rav kook in EY …
.do you know that rav kook was the mesader kidushin of both rav elyashiv and rav shlomo zalman auerbach ?
do you know that the sefer me’orei ha’eish of rav shlomo zalman has a haskama from rav kook
positioned IN FRONT OF rav yosef hayim zonnefelds ?
.do you know that rav shmuel auerbach refused the suggestion to omit rav kook’s haskama from the new edition of me’orei ha’eish ?
.do you know all those details and choose to ignore them ?
or did you just not bother to do the necessary research ?
.
.either way – it does not reflect very well ….
.
.
..
.@lerntmin
“Chabad mashpia Rabbi Yosef Paltiel, a popular “Stump the Rabbi” segment speaker, has said that Chabad chassidim primarily serve the Rebbe, and through serving the Rebbe they also serve Hashem.”
—you hit the nail on its head here .
this is one the main issues of habad’s divergence from torah true judaism
and one of the main sakanot of the future development of errant habad theology
.
.who knows where this is going to lead to , when new habad generations are going to arrive on the scene
never to have known those who still remember the flesh and blood version of their wrongly deified leader ….
.
.you are obfuscating …
we were discussing : A] the kfira of trinity and reform
not
B] mistakes in interpretation of the tora
or
valid machlokot within torah
the difference between A and B is of the magnitude as the difference between literally shamayim and arets
steipler classifies athaltah d/g belief as a mere mistake , not as “kfira”
whereas belief in trinity or reform is definitely full fledged “kfira”
.
.it is already high time to admit to the obvious , mr somejew …..
your credibility will be enhanced [even at this late stage] if you could find the inner fortitude to be modeh al ha’emet
whereas it will totally crash if you still cannot …..
.
.
.@aaq
ch’ch was betokfo in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s up until mid 1920’s.
thereafter his health declined , he was niftar in 1933
REW ‘s ma’marim were written in the mid and late 1930’s
different times , different situations
he always ran them past R Chaim Ozer , and at least once did not publish a maamar after RCH’O objected
.
.somejew claims that he “didn’t see anywhere that the Steipler says that NK are mistaken” ….
the Steipler writes:
[…]
……………בעיקר הדבר כך דעתי העניי נוטה שמצוה רבה להצביע לרשימה החרדית ושיש בזה ממש הצלת הדת לפי המצב כעת……
……..ומה ששמע מעלתו שיש איסורים בדבר…….
כתב מע’ שיש איסור בהצבעה מצד מודה בע”ז, והוא דבר שאין לו שחר, הלא המציאות בעוה”ר הוא שהשלטון בידם לע”ע ומחמת מציאות זו מצביעים ושותפים שומרי תורה להתם ע”ם להציל כפי האפשרי, ואיזו הודאה יש כאן שמסכים ברשעת הרשעים ח”ו בדעות טמאים שלהםוידע מע”כ שגם לצורך קנאות אסור לגלות פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה, ומה שאינו אמת אינו מצליח כלל
how can somejew not see which is obvious to all ???
NK clearly hold that participating in elections is prohibited , as the questioner to the steipler held
whereupon the steipler answers that this is a “davar she’ein lo shachar” ….
and labels that view as “giluy panim batorah shelo kehalacha”
and as “eino emet” and predicts that it therefore will be “eino matsliach klal”
.
.
in other words – as clear as can be : that according to staipler the NK and somejew are mistaken !and hold opinions against the torah !
which according to somejews own [convoluted and totally mistaken] reasoning is nothing less than kfira ?!
on par with trinity and reform ???!!!
.
.
nothing less than total absurdity …..
.
.somejew is [again] distorting the issues….
.
.kfira means – kfira in the 13 yesodot of judaism
for example trinity and reform
.
.mistake means wrongly interpreting the torah – which is a mistake but not kfira
for example beit shammai’s opinion of beit hillel’s shitah and vice versa
and all other machlokot within torah
and other mistakes not regarding the ikarim even when the propagator of the mistake is not a chacham
.
.
the above is pashut to any serious torah studentve’eino tsricha lifnim …
.
.@avi k
there is no indication whatsoever to be taken from the fact that hafets hayim approved of rav kook going into the rabinate
even if historically correct ,
towards any of his later sayings about hebrew university
or his actions while in the newly established rabbanut harashit
which made him controversial
those things happened only much , much later
.
.
.according to your own [faulty] reasoning , you should be ‘shocked’ whenever you look in the mirror …
.
.
.steipler clearly writes that the neturei karta are mistaken
according to your reasoning, where every mistake is considered ‘kefira’
it follows from the steipler , that the neturei karta are kofrim
so – simple logic – it follows then , that whenever you look in the mirror …. you are looking at a kofer …..
.
.
.770: A Mikdash or a Madhouse?
As an outsider, I think many of us view every habadi as both a Mikdash & a Madhouse.
There are different subgroups within every Chabadi , part of every habadi is a sincere Oveid Hashem in the traditional way while the other part is delusional, courtesy of their leader .
I don’t judge any habadi at all , as they all , including their leader , could be more beloved in shamayim than me.
We should not judge any yehudi because we do not have the keilim to judge anyone, but
we definitely should speak up whenever we encounter a falsification of our holy torah.
.
.
.@AAQ
you are overly blessed with naivete
keep it up ….
.
.I will repeat for the sake of clarity –
the zionism of today is squarely centered on EY .
and that was the intent of the original question , how is zionism of today against any of the ikarim ?
.
.there is no connection whatsoever between the neturei karta the steipler is referring too
and the wicked friends of ahmedinejad who traveled to his holocaust denying conference and
who demonstrate in front of the cameras together with people whose hands are stained with innocent yehudi blood
if you think they are one and the same
then I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you to purchase
.
.
.which Rebetsin ?
.@AAQ
not sure why you keep on [deliberately ?] ignoring the multitudes who were forced away from religion by the medina ?
.
.@AAQ
Religious soldiers from the Givati Brigade’s advanced training course have recently been deployed in the city of Hebron, including securing the Cave of the Patriarchs and its surroundings.
The soldiers were assigned to joint guard shifts with female Border Police officers, without being given the option to choose an alternate assignment that would fit their religious way of life.
According to them, there was no prior offer to guard separately, and some were even surprised to find they had been assigned this way without being asked in advance. One of the soldiers said, “We received no offer to guard separately. They simply put us on shifts with female Border Police officers, which does not correspond to our way of life.”
The Hotem organization, which promotes traditional Jewish values, stated, “There is no responsible body in the IDF for the sanctity of the military, and the progressive agenda of gender mixing is given precedence and harms observant soldiers.”
“There is no way to speak about recruiting haredim into the IDF without respecting the observant soldiers who are already serving and giving their lives”
—
you cannot trust the IDF to accommodate religious soldiers .
this is happening again and again ….
.
.re mashiach – continuation :
A] just fyi : within DL circles , there are constant references about kdushat erets yisrael , the mitsvot of yishuv ha’arets and kibush ha’arets
this obviously could not be applicable at all , about any other land all over the globe.
.
.
.we are debating the definition of certain terms
in the course of this debate , you are very liberal in your use of all types of adjectives which are not at all necessary to our debate
and by the way also totally misplaced
—re mashiach , yes – any hazal not quoted by rambam in yad , there has to be a reason for the omission
all commentators on rambam over the generations worked hard to find explanations for rambams omissions in his yad
and if we cannot find a reason why the holy rambam omitted something , then the fault lies with us, not with the rambam
that’s the age old approach towards the words of rishonim who are kemalachim …
.
..
מי שסובר שהשינוי משלטון נכרים לשלטון חופשים ורשעים מזרע ישראל הוא אתחלתא דגאולה אינו אלא טועה אבל לא רשע ח”ו שיהא
מותר לדבר עליו להר”ר ולבזותו ברביםwhoever thinks that this government is athaltah d/g is only “mistaken” , but not a rasha has veshalom ….
its assur to speak lashon hara about him ….ad kan the staiplers words
comes somejew and ADDS to the staipler —- if he is “mistaken” , that means , according to somejew , that this should be classified as kfira ….
that’s quite a jump ….
Mr somejew –
a mistake is nothing more than a … mistake , but not kfira ….
.
.hatam soffer is reputed to have warned his talmidim : I do not care if you misappropriate and use my hidushim in your own name
but I do warn you : I will never tolerate you saying your own hidushim in my name …
that is , in essence , what somejew is doing here .
he inserts his own opinions in to the staiplers words , even though the staipler never said them
and then somejew turns around and ‘proves’ his own opinions are correct — you see , the staipler says the same ….
.
.bottom line, athalta d/g is not kfira , its a mistake
the proponent of athalta d/g, while mistaken, is not a kofer , not a rasha
he is kasher le’edut accepted by all rabanim and it is an issur hamur to speak ill of him
unlike , lehavdil , a proponent of the kfira of reform or the kfira of trinity, who is a clear kofer and passul le’edut all over the globe in all batei din
.
.
.
.I never said that athalta d/g is valid
like I never said that ka’as or anger is valid
.
.both are related to kfira to a certain degree
both are bichlal amitecha
both , there is a hiyuv gamur min hatorah to love them
both , there is an issur hamur not talk lashon hara about them
.
.
.
hu asher amartihu asher katuv bedivrei hastaipler
.
.while the factors you quote did exist ,
you are [deliberately?] ignoring the clear role zionism played in the decline of religion pre WW2 in eastern europe and in EY ….
.
.haavara plan was a ‘great success’ ….
—
one can wonder whether without the haavara plan , the nazi economy would have rebounded so quickly from the great depression ???
who knows ??
this rebounding, fueled subsequent nazi aggression ….
one of the mysteries of world history ….
.
.@AAQ
have a look in dugma midarkei avi , in the three volume set of sifrei hafets hayim
where hafets hayim’s son quotes his fathers opinion about the balfour declaration .
.
.rav kook is quoted by the imrei emet as saying about himself that he not a tsioni and also not a ‘mizrachist’ ….
printed in osef michtavim.
there might be other sources . I don’t know of them ….
.
.rav shlomo zalman was not ‘in favor of’ the state .
that is plainly inaccurate .
.
‘the aguda’ did not sign the decleration of independence. r yitshak meir levin signed in his personal capacity .he also happened to be the chairman of aguda.
those are the facts.
it is your interpretation that ‘the aguda’ signed .
stick to the facts , please , and then add the interpretation.
.
.some minor adjustments re your other definitions –
mashiach – rambam does not bring all of your descriptions in hilchot mlachim although they do appear in hazal .
could be he held that those left out are in dispute between various different hazal and thats why he left them out …
.
re galut – agree , but the gra said that after the shib’ud of the four malhuyot we will suffer from a shib’ud under the erev rav mizera yisraelwhich fits the present situation where the ma’aminim are a persecuted minority under erev rav kofrim mizera bnei yisrael.
that is also a form of galut
.
.disagree re definition of zionism
our dabate is about how to view the zionist of today – not the zionist of the congress of basel some 130 years ago.
the zionist of today is the one who advocates for a jewish state and its welfare in EY
no zionist today advocates for a state in uganda , birobidzhan or anywhere else.
this debate has to be had on a realistic basis .
that is today’s reality and our debate should reflect that reality.
.
.I cannot understand why you keep on misquoting the steipler as if he said that atchalta d/g is kfira ???
he NEVER said that .
aderaba — he says that it is NOT kfira.
honesty above all else ….
.
.
.has veshalom . I did not make anything up.
tanya writes that anyone who gets angry is kofer in hashgacha , because if would have proper emuna
he would realize that anything which happens is straight from the RBSHO ,
that’s the explanation of the connection between ka’as and avoda zara
nu , what do think , mr somejew ? does that mean that a ko’ess is yatsa michlal amitecha ?
has veshalom .
.similar thing is mentioned in writings of r chaskel levenstein , he says :
any avera is really kefira , because if he would have proper emuna and understands who the RBSHO really is
and what an avera really is , it would be impossible to do any chet at all
so again – what do think , mr somejew ? does that mean that anyone who committed one chet ,is yatsa michlal amitecha ?
has veshalom.
.
.