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The consensus amongst the majority of gdolei yisrael before and after the War , was clearly that Zionism is bad.
Bad , does not necessarily mean heresy.
So both sides on this thread are wrong.
Its not heresy, but it is bad.
It is not a choice between heresy on one side and “good / part of thora” on the other side.
It is a choice between
1] heresy
2] good and part of thora
3] not heresy but wrong and obviuosly no part of the thora.Re Rav Kuk
Yadua lakol in Bnei Brak that Chazon Ish paskined that one is allowed to learn his halacha sfarim , but not his agada sfarim.
That fits very neatly with Karyana De’igrata who clearly says that athalta d/g is wrong but not kfira.
So Rav Kuk would not be an apikorus according to Chazon Ish and according to Staipler.Thats besides a clear letter from Emrai Emet in Osef Michtavim that although Rav Kuk is mistaken in his hashkafa, he still is a Rav who should not be mevuzah chas veshalom.
Again clear proof that athaltah d/g , while wrong- is not kfira.All of the above clearly not like satmar rav .
Attempting to rewrite history is an might seem a viable option , but sometimes some pesky historical facts get in the way ….
.There used to be a whole army of habad apologists out there.
They all went on a joint vacation ?
Not even one habadi left ?Or is it a real and objective lack of answers ?
You cannot answer what you do not possess …….In other words shtika ke ….. ?
Karyane de’igrata Vol 1 , clearly states that athaltah de geoula ,while wrong, is not heresy.
Thats enough.This is clear
Zionism was/is/remains a sakana for yahadut.
Most Zionists were heretics.
Most Zionists were choteh umachti et harabim.But this is equally clear
There is nothing in Zionism perse that is heretical.
There is no inherent forced contradiction to be found in Zionism against any of the 13 ikarei emuna.
Even if [!] one holds the 3 shavuot as binding lehalacha nowadays, [which is definitely debatable] even so, we can state with confidence that there is no inherent contradiction between Zionism and any of the 13 ikarim.After so many years of speaking to satmar talmidei hahamim, I have not heard even one [!] clear proof that Zionism inherently has to be apikorsut.
.Shtikah Ke ,,,,, ?
Bottom line –
To say that 3 shevuot is kove’a lehalacha nowadays – is a canard , that is not heresy.
Not heresy at all
This happens to be the opinion of AVNEI NEZER , not any less of an authority in halacha than R yoel Tajtelbaum.His words [end of helek yoreh dei’ah] are easily understood by any seasoned talmud scholar , provided that he reads his words a few times and tries to understand the avnei nezers intention.
Nu ?
Thanks menachem.
So – when are we back into the business of answering the unanswered questions ?Looking forward.
.@Chaim
By the way till the machlokos R chaim ozer and Rubenstein the mizrachi was part of the agudah party. They didn’t see zionism as heresy even if they disagreed. It wasn’t until the chaftez chaim protested due to the lack of respect shown to r chaim Ozer in vilna, that the mizrachi split. (That was only the last 20 years of before the war) Again not “all gedolim” were against zionsim
[chaim]
—
Historically incorrect.
Aguda was never part [or one] with mizrachi.
They were AGAINST mizrachi.This is alef bet in history.
.Menachem was happy that that at least we have something we can agree on….
Menachem – got news for you.
We agree on 99% of the issues.
We agree that there is a bashefer. Torah misinai etc. etc. …. and the list can go on and on b’h.
No shortage there.Reminding ourselves from time to time of the things we do agree on , will help us to view our disagreements in their proper perspective.
And enable us to not blow them up [any bigger than their real size] in our own minds.
Which in turn will not cause us to view straightforward questions as ‘raving attacks’ .
.Hakatan is not into debates
He ignores pointed questions and proofs
He is into mindless repetition of worn cliches
He probably means well but is hopelessly mixed up.Is CS lucid ?
@non political
Will try have a look.
Ty@CS
@Menachem
and all other habad peopleI reread menachems posts and I see that he and other habad people perceive my posts as ‘raving attacks’ on habad.
It seems that they perceive those posts as offending.
They for sure were not written with the intent to offend , that much I can assure you of .
Therefore I would like ask for mehila from those who did feel offended.
Please accept my apologies .But on the other hand …. let us find the balance where healthy and fact based debate will not be artificially stifled by misplaced claims of victimhood.
.Menachem wants us to believe that CS and company’s collective silence when the questions and simple logic are too much to bear , is only because
they either are …‘ not in the mood’
or ‘too busy’
or ‘happen personally not to know’ the answer
or ….. fill in the blanks.but for sure not because of an objective lack of logical answers
So therefore – this sudden collective silence of CS and company is no indication whatsoever that habad does not have answers.
They have them . Hidden in some secret vault ….Come on.
It was CS who tried portray modern habad as the main continuation of yahadut nowadays , and ran away when the questions became too hard to handle with honesty.
Btw.
I do not think that they are apikorsim.
I just point out that they deviate from the truth and yahadut.
And CS and friends are trying to pull the wool over unsuspecting people’s eyes.
Habad are masterful at PR . If you do not ask them the questions , they will succeed to influence the average persons thinking.@DaMoshe
We did not start this argument .
It was CS who tried portray modern habad as the main continuation of yahadut nowadays , and ran away when the questions became too hard to handle with honesty.Btw.
I do not think that they are apikorsim.
I just point out that they deviate from the truth and yahadut.
And CS and friends are trying to pull the wool over unsuspecting people’s eyes.
Habad are masterful at PR . If you do not ask them the questions , they will succeed to influence the average persons thinking.@somejew
Where is this raavad ? Do you have the exact address please ?
Which poskim don’t take RZ for kesuba ?
Is it because their not fully frum ? Or are they fully frum and just believe in athaltah d/g ?What katan says – if without proof , is that an authority to rely on ?
He claims that someone who believes in kefirah is not a kofer .
But on the other hand , he compares athaltah d/g to reform and jews for ‘j’ where everyone agrees that their believers are kofrim.
So he can’t have it both ways ?@menachem
Maybe you are classifying my offer to go through each one , one by one. Maybe this is also classified as a ‘raving attack’ ?
Am putting you at ease – this is not an attack .
It’s nothing more than an offer.Regarding yayin nesech, none of this conversation has to do with “what I consider”. Ask your rabbi what the halach is. As per the Satmar Rebbe and his psak in Vayoel Moshe, I never heard him paskin that R”Z have a din ovdei avoda zureh.
[somejew]
—————
Thanks for your honesty [unlike hakatan] stating the obvious.
If athaltah d/g would be heresy , then frum believers in this heresy are heretics.
Like lehavdil frum Reform or frum jews for ‘j’.So the reverse also applies.
Since they are al pi halaha not heretics , athalta d/g is not heresy.So all of hakatans preaching about heresy is to be taken , not in a literal sense.
Those with honesty will agree.
The others will robotically repeat their mantra, without supplying any logical rebuttal to the very simple logic of these few lines.
.@menachem
All the questions are nothing more than what they are – questions .
It is only when they are left unanswered that they might, in your mind, turn into so called ‘attacks’ .Answer them and they will be nothing more than an answered question .
Am ready to go through them with you one by one . You will tell me which one is an attack and not a question and why.
Am looking forward .Doubt to see anything close to a 90 % ratio of ‘raving attacks’.
Even in your mind.@741
What’s really pathetic , [and btw the reason of my ongoing posts] is that there are numerable questions and issues which are left totally unaddressed by the habad apologizers.If there would be serious [attempts or] answers to all the issues raised, with a serious ,open, honest and fact based discussion, then there would be no need for any ongoing posts.
They claim to have all the answers, but run away whenever there is a real challenge.Is that a possible reason why they mainly deal with non frum ? The non frum are not going to challenge them so quickly with questions about mesorah and chazal ?
Again, that does not mean that they are bad people – has veshalom !
They are special and idealistic people from whom all of klal yisrael can and should learn .But their theology is beyond bad.
They should be man enough to stand their ground , instead of running away.
.@Menachem
Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?Not one Rav [ranging the entire gamut of Orthodoxy considers wine touched by a frum believer in athalta di’geoula as Yayin Nesech.
Not one.That suffices. It is an hashkafik issue. Not a halachik one.
Athalta d/g is NOT HERESY AL PI HAHALACHA.
Period.
.Fact is and remains [as mentioned before]
Not one Rav [ranging the entire gamut of Orthodoxy considers wine touched by a frum believer in athalta di’geoula as Yayin Nesech.
Not one.That suffices. It is an hashkafik issue. Not a halachik one.
Athalta d/g is NOT HERESY AL PI HAHALACHA.
Period.
.@menachem
People say ?
We are referring to torah based criteria here – not folksy sayings …..A Beinoni of the Tanya ALSO did no avera.
So – the Q comes back : How do they pretend to know that their rebbi was a tsadiq of tanya ?Even leshitatam that he did not do an avera , [impossible to verify btw]
maybe he is a beinoni ?Repeated [unanswered] Question –
Habadi’s frequently [also CS on this thread] say that their late Rebbi was a Tsadiq of Tanya.What is their source for that ?
Is it because their Previous Rebbi took him for a son in law ?
.[Hakatan to YB]
It would take very long to respond to all of your posts, and you could just resolve this easily by speaking to an LOR.
But Zionism and its “State” are heresy, idolatry and remain no less of the same today as they always were, as all the gedolim stated and as is obvious to anyone not fooled by that idol. The only thing that changed was the tactics in dealing with them.
————
Repeating rubbish does not make it any less rubbish.
Even if you keep on repeating it like a robot.If you want to have a semblance of a reputation , the way to start is … to offer a refutation .
Or an attempted refutation at least.Ignoring so many open proofs against your shitah , risks of giving the [mistaken ?] impression that you DO NOT HAVE a real answer …
.
.I noticed that an intelligent Menachem who normally – when he has answers available – endeavors to respond to valid questions and issues raised, while now he resorts to implications of antisemitism [?].
Is that a copout ?
Think about it.The main problem about habad nowadays stems from the following erroneous assumption the habad hasidim make :
Welcome to the following [no difference whether conscious or subconscious] habadi thought process
“Since I genuinely feel uplifted when I hear / learn / follow the late habad leaders torah / hitva’adut / guidance , I am convinced that he is the most exalted Jewish leader since the unfolding of Jewish History , greater than Abraham and Moses.
No one in our generation comes even close and even in all preceding generations no one came close. Including in the generation of Moses.”
This assumption is something which sets habad totally apart from all other sections of klal yisrael.
Never in thousands of years of Jewish History was this considered official gospel [!] in any Jewish group, kehilla , yeshiva or hasidut.This is one of the defining differences between habad and all the rest of of Orthodox Jews.
One point of chomer lemahshavah – for all the non habad people reading thses lines
And incidentally for habadi’s still under the illusion that all non habadi’s are nothing much more than primitive savages subsisting on the achorayim of the hashpa’ot from their [false] mashiach, waiting to be shown the glory and benefits of civilization.
Q : Is it true that habad looks at themselves as the pasuk describes – Hen Am Levadad Yishkon …..
Do they view themselves as isolated from the rest of klal yisrael , more so than the other shvatim / hugim in klal yisrael ?
And if yes , why is this so ?
.@hakatan
Katan was ‘proving’ his kana’ut in many posts.
Now that Emrei Emet , Steipler and plain logic are disproving him , he sends us to the local rabbinic authority ….Doesn’t sound very promising ……
————-To be sure – Zionism is dangerous .
It does have a track record of pulling untold numbers away from HKBH and his torah.But hakatan is guilty of Hava’s original chet – Only ahila from ets hadaat was assur. Touching was permitted.
She exaggerated and included touch.Unwittingly, she helped the satan and …… adam harishon ended up eating from ets hada’at.
—–Katan has not responded to any of the posts but seems to think that ignoring issues will make them go away ….
.It seems like that the habad propaganda machine has run out of steam . We should give them some time to recuperate.
They were working overtime, seems like.
It must have been too much.So it might be our turn to offer to provide answers to their questions now. Such as Why do you ….
You the neo habad sceptics , for lack of a better name…
Or all non habad yehudim ….Why are you sceptic only about our wonderful movement which is the only contemporary embodiment of all of Judaism’s generations from Abraham Avinu to today ?
Is there anything beyond simple sin’at hinam at play here ?
.
We should attempt , unlike CS, to provide honest and clear answers here .To the point answers and not shirking anything.
Whoever wants to join – is welcome.
.If someone sincerely believes that a certain food is permitted by the torah , while it really is prohibited,
DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A VIOLATION OF …
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah , and
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah ???Obviously those haredim [and many of the national religious] who support the existence and establishment of the medina do not consider this against the torah ??
Read all the posts on this thread , all of them keep claiming that the torah AGREES to Zionism and a medina.
You might argue that they are MISTAKEN in the way that they understand the torah ….
But REJECTION of the torah – man dechar shemei ???They all agree and accept that torah is divine and immutable , but they learn the wrong pshat in the torah.
maskana :
athaltah d/g is not heresy.
.Regarding ikar 12 –
How is establishment of medina a denial of mashiach ?? Why can’t they both exist ???
He still yearns for and believes in Mashiach who will restore the Bet hamikdash , metaher klal yisrael and meishiv them bitshuva, take away the lev even mibsarhem ,bring back malhut bet david , take away the nations’ hate of the yehudim , bring the shechina back down to this world and the kiyum of all of the nevu’ot of the nevi’im.
and in the meantime, while he awaits and yearns for all this , he brings parnasah for his family … and he governs himself too.
Does that HAVE TO BE contradictory ???How so ?
.Emrei Emet in his written letter [Osef Michtavim]
says clearly that“we decided in Vienna that we will not be mitnaged to political rights to EY granted to the Jews even when they come via the seculars ,ki yavoh hatov mikol makom, because the good can and should come from any place”
This is the actual words of the foremost accepted Torah leader in Poland pre World War 2 ….
Clearly NOT like the hashkafa you promote here ……
.rav kotler zatsal did support the medina’s needs klapei chuts when speaking to the US administration .
Yadua lakol.
Maskana :
Mere Existence of the medina is not heresy .
.Steipler in Karyane DeIgrata VOL 1 clearly says the belief in the medina as athalta digeoulah ,while a big mistake [!] , is not kfirah.
Al pi ha’emet , It is a descent into a more dark form of galut than previous galuyot .
To experience a galut between our own errant and hateful brothers.
But this mistaken belief of athaltah d/g is definitely not kfira.Please check inside the sefer.
It is not kfirah .Black on white.
It’s there.Maskana :
Athaltah d/g is not heresy.None of the rabbanim in mainstream Orthodoxy .
None . [maybe some extremists within satmar]1] Have ever declared wine touched by a fully frum believer in athalta d/g as Yayin Nesech .
2] None have ever declared kidushin formed with the edut of a fully frum believer in athalta d/g as invalid .
None have ever declared subsequent kidushin to the same kalla by a strange man as valid and binding .All mainstream rabanim would not require a get , even lehumra , from the second mekadesh.
They would ALL , totally invalidate the second kidushin , on the basis of the validity of the first kidushin.
Which is valid only b/c of the edut of our fully frum athalta d/g believer.3] EVEN IF OUR ATHALTA D/G BELIEVER IS AN EX SATMAR HASID WHO ONCE KNEW THE ‘TRUTH’ AND CHANGED HIS HASHKAFA.
So much for halacha’s acceptance of the so called ‘heresy’ of athalta d/g.
For contrast – lehavdil , if our ed for the first kidushin would be a fully mitsva observant conservative jew , or a fully mitsva observant member of Jews for “j” , it is clear that all Orthodox rabanim would invalidate the first kidushin and need a get from the second one.
Which gives a clear illustration that even those who do talk about ‘heresies’ , do so in a theoretical manner only , but not in practical hahacha manner.
Leharchik et ha’adam …
Etc .Maskana lehalacha :
Athaltah d/g is not heresy.@CS
It seems that much of your beliefs were not much more than one big bubble.
One prick ….@hakatan
The Steipler in Karyane DeIgrata VOL 1 clearly says the belief in the medina as athalta digeoulah ,while a big mistake [!] , is not kfirah.
Al pi ha’emet , It is a descent into a more dark form of galut than previous galuyot .
To experience a galut between our own errant and hateful brothers.
But this mistaken belief of athaltah d/g is definitely not kfira.Please check inside the sefer.
It is not kfirah .Black on white.
Its there.
——
None of the rabbanim in mainstream Orthodoxy .
None . [maybe some extremists within satmar]
Have ever declared wine touched by a fully frum believer in athalta d/g as Yayin Nesech .None have ever declared kidushin formed with the edut of a fully frum believer in athalta d/g as invalid .
None have ever declared subsequent kidushin to the same kalla by a strange man as valid and binding .All mainstream rabanim would not require a get , even lehumra , from the second mekadesh.
They would ALL , totally invalidate the second kidushin , on the basis of the validity of the first kidushin.
Which is valid only b/c of the edut of our fully frum athalta d/g believer.EVEN IF OUR ATHALTA D/G BELIEVER IS AN EX SATMAR HASID WHO ONCE KNEW THE ‘TRUTH’ AND CHANGED HIS HASHKAFA.
So much for halacha’s acceptance of the so called ‘heresy’ of athalta d/g.
For contrast – lehavdil , if our ed for the first kidushin would be a fully mitsva observant conservative jew , or a fully mitsva observant member of Jews for “j” , it is clear that all Orthodox rabanim would invalidate the first kidushin and need a get from the second one.
Which gives a clear illustration that even those who do talk about ‘heresies’ , do so in a theoretical manner only , but not in practical hahacha manner.
Leharchik et ha’adam …
Etc .@hakatan
This is a repeat post- you must have overlooked this oneyou seem to say that rav kotler zatsal did not say to support the medina’s needs klapei chuts when speaking to the US administration ?
Do you really stand by that ?This is yadua lakol .
.
“….. Establishment of any state before Mashiach comes , is a violation of :
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.Hashem said that you are forsworn not to return to the land (certainly not en masse and with force and politically and against the nations – all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated) until I return you to the land….
[Hakatan to YB]
============================Cannot understand your logic at all-
If someone sincerely believes that a certain food is permitted by the torah , while it really is prohibited,
DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A VIOLATION OF …
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah , and
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah ???Obviously those haredim [and many of the national religious] who support the existence and establishment of the medina do not consider this against the torah ??
Read all the posts on this thread , all of them keep claiming that the torah AGREES to Zionism and a medina.
You might argue that they are MISTAKEN in the way that they understand the torah ….
But REJECTION of the torah – man dechar shemei ???Would you say that in each argument about the real pshat in torah that the mistaken opinion is in violation ikarei emuna 8 and 9 ???
——
Besides that , AVNEI NEZER [end of YD] clearly paskans that establishment of a medina before mashiach is not against halacha.
How can you say that someone who paskans not like DIVREI YOEL is kofer in 8 and 9 of the ikarim ???
Hafleh vafeleh !!! How could you even say that ???
——
And regarding ikar 12 –
How is establishment of medina a denial of mashiach ?? Why can’t they both exist ???
He still yearns for and believes in Mashiach who will restore the Bet hamikdash , metaher klal yisrael and meishiv them bitshuva, take away the lev even mibsarhem ,bring back malhut bet david , take away the nations’ hate of the yehudim , bring the shechina back down to this world and the kiyum of all of the nevu’ot of the nevi’im.
and in the meantime, while he awaits and yearns for all this , he brings parnasah for his family … and he governs himself too.
Does that HAVE TO BE contradictory ???
How so ?.
@non political
I do not see in your post any response to my Q.
My Q pertains to the essence of self government before mashiach, according to katan.Self gov by non zionist shomrei torah.
Is that against ikarei emuna ?If yes, Which one and how so ?
@DaMoshe
the only response you can get from CS and her fellow travelers is a choice between jokes , sidesteps, issues being ignored and obvious non answers.
There is nothing else on the menu.Read through the last pages on this thread and the other [discontinued] threads , on the same topic.
Always the same.Wonderful people . Special people.
Lousy theology. Non existent logic.
.@hakatan
All your arguments are against the Zionists who were heretics and lived their life against torah.
But that was not the Q.
The Q here is whether a theoretical establishment of a non zionist state by shomrei torah before mashiach is against ikarei emuna.
You skirted this Q until now.
Will we merit to hear your opinion and proof ?
Which ikar and how so ?
Thanksta’anit dibur applies to someone who has something to say and keeps back ,,,,
Seems like there is nothing left to say ?@somejew
I looked at vayoel moshe several times . He for sure gives the impression that he is of the opinion which Katan is propagating on these pages. But even while learning his sefer , I could not come to any clarity as to the absolute proofs to his shitah .The mere fact that he says that it is against the 13 ikarim is not enough for me [/ us].
I [and all the non – Satmar Jewish Orthodox world] are not his talmidim or his hasidim.So , if not for re’ayot muhrahot to this shitah , we do not see ourselves obligated to follow his da’at yahid in this respect that even a non zionist medina is against ikarei emuna.
Nor should we be influenced by katan’s exaggerations about other rabanim who according to katan also held by his shitah.
For sure since following katan’s overblown hashkafa is being used as an excuse for curtailing US Government support for the medina.
[Cf, US Senate Majority Leader’s quote of Satmar as part of his Senate speech for withholding certain arm shipments.]All the while the medina is surrounded by bloodthirsty monsters who would make [chvsh] the Yazidi’s lot considered paradise compared to those of the Jews under their domination.
The unspeakable atrocities of Oct 7 are ample proof.It is clear that the overwhelming majority of gdolei yisrael disagreed with this satmar proposition.
There even is a niggling hashash that even satmar rav himself did not fully hold that the mere existence of the medina is against the ikarei emuna.
As mentioned before – and ignored by katan – Hafets Hayim writes clearly that it is permitted for a rebbi or parent to exaggerate the rish’ut and danger to a pupil or child in order to get the child to distance from the danger.There are certain internal contradictions in Satmar which point towards this idea.
But this is for another post.lema’aseh , the topic here is whether existence of a medina before mashiach is against ikarei emuna . If yes, which one and how so ?