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I once met in the park an eldery woman. I was talking to her and I found out she was a survivor and felt lonley from her teenage grandaughter.
She then proceeded to tell me her story, In the 30’s she had wanted to join some your zionist kibbutz or something (Dont remember exact details except it involved going to Palestine) Her parents Rabbi forbid her from going to Palestine and while she did survive, her entire familyh was killed and she seemed (at least to me) permantly damaged.
I also once knew an eldery man from Romania/Hungary (Some Borders are fluid) , He told me the story he remembered as a teen of a woman who was bragging how none of her family had emigrated to the US (This occured in Late 1930’s) . He said he’d never forget that woman for the rest of his life (He maanged to live on the Lam for a few years and never himself went to a camp)
I make the comparison to Chemotherapy, Its painful and the side effects hurt, however the Chemo gets rid of the cancer and you will be better off for taking the Chemo
MDD
The situtation between 1900 and 1940 in the US did not change, In fact it might have been worse, At least the first generation did keep many things, the second generation less so.
Yet in the 1940’s when Rabbanin did come to the US because they were forced and the situation did change for the better.
Imagine if those Rabbanim who came when they were forced when the Nazis came had come 50 years earlier. How much better would the situtation had been
Whats funny about this whole discussion is I never even noticed the difference in styles of frames
Granted I dont wear them , But I never really paid attention to the difference between Plastic and Metal frames. You can notice the style of Sunglasses, so thats a little different.
What if someone decided that contacts were stylish and banned those
Rav Chaim Ozer went through very difficult tests in Vilna and wound up not being appointed chief rabbi of Vilna. So Rabbi Jacob Josef was not the only one with troubles
Rav Yaakov Yosef was unfortuantly not a gadol and not up to the task needed.
Anytime there is a protest and crazies show up, its alwsays the crazies who steal the show. It is the job of the organizers to keep the crazies in check otherwise what message the protest has will be lost.
The Rabbanim who did not send Shiluchim to the US were dereclict in the responsibility.
New York Already by 1900 was by far the largest jewish city on earth. Many did clamour and beg for Rabbanim to be sent and their cries fell on deaf ears
lesschumras said
With the pogroms of the 1880’s, things changed. Many Gedolim advocated that Jews not leave because the oppresion and poverty made it easier to keep Jews frum.
my response:
is this true? this sounds like a truly dreadful thing to suggest. Can anyone confirm?
Unfortuantly yes
In fact the First Lubavitcher Rebbe when Napoleon wanted to emacipate the jews advocted against emacipation because he felt it will lead them to go astry (with some correctness on his part) , He opposed Napoleon and was chased by Napoleon and thrown into Jail.
Gedolim dont read the newspaper , Watch it on TV or listen to it on the Radio. They get their news from kanoim.
I doubt any Kanoi would have told the R’Y what happend with the Sikirim.
One should be embarrassed that those agitarors embarrassed a Gadol.
Given that a few people (In the 10’s) acted inapproprately at the event. Whatever kiddish Hashem might have might come out the event was totally lost, Spolied by a few .
It only takes a few bad apples to ruin the lot.
It was a mistake calling that rally
If they want to stop the W4W leave them alone, ignore them. Agree to let them go to some corner of the Kotel area where barely anyone sees them. By spittling and throwing things at them, they turned a Kiddish Hashem into a massive Chilul Hashem.
If you ignore them eventually they will get tired and bored and proceed to something else
If one listens to their gedolim then they should be rewarded from Hashem. Its not the job of fellow man to reward someone for following someone elses Gedolim unless they want to
You need the basics of things like math to go on to the advanced Math.
So of like you need to have the foundations of certain Gemorahs to learn the more advanced ones.
You dont learn Baba Basra without learning Elu Mitzeout
You dont learn the Halachot of Animals without knowing the biology behind them
Ill make it simple.
You go to the doctor and he tells you to fill out insurance forms which are in English, Those forms include your medical history
Those forms are in English
The doctor takes your blood test and tells you , that you have High Cholestoral and gives you liptor. You cannot read the directios on the bottle that says you cannot take grapefruit with a Statin which is chemisry . So you need to know english and chemistry or it could kill you.
Many people make some or all of their parnassah on eBay
The question is: My purpose is to learn Torah- what will help me do that? Basic addition (for me personally), yes. American History, no. Chemistry, no. Zoology, biology, maybe. English Grammar, no
You need to Know Zoology to know about Kosher Animals especially Fish (Zoology and Biology are related)
A few years ago some Bochrim could not burn Chometz on Eruv Peseach because it was too windy and tried to use Paint Thinner (and disatrous results), that is Chemistry
Many Jews (Probably a Majority) Speak English and if you want to properly relate torah to them Proper English and English grammar is expected. Many Seforim are written in english and many people expect good quality english writing from these books
If the Charedi world would really be solving their problems, you wouldnt need people meddling from the outside
So what is the charedi solutions to we are constantly striving to address the obstacles that come our way, whether they are related to chinuch, jobs, parnassah,
Because the first one was such a success
I just want one person to prove to me how knowing Math and being literate in English (The Lingua-Franca of the world, the lanugage of commerce ) damages the Torah
They could not renounce the Kellogg-Briand Pact although maybe they could have claimed they did.
Much of the Nuremberg trials was based on the Germans disobeying the treaty (It might be flimsy)
If YWN didnt post it, it means it didnt happend
There was a female Chassidic “Rebbe”
The Maiden of Ludmir (Hannah Rachel Verbermacher)
Actually The Nazis violated several treaties the Germans had signed
They Violated the Kellogg-Briand Pact which outlawed war (They Weimer Germans had signed this)
but if someone were to say or even imply that any halachos or mesorah or minhagim are wrong or bad or mistaken or ought to be modified, they are violating numerous issurim.
To say a Halacha , Mesorah or Minhag NEVER changes is just factually incorrect
Pruzbal is just the most obvious example, but there are others, Like most (not all- some still do this) do no put ashes on their forehead at a wedding
I don’t know or care what “bigotry” or “sexist” means, but if someone were to say or even imply that any halachos or mesorah or minhagim are wrong or bad or mistaken or ought to be modified, they are violating numerous issurim.
Like Pruzbal?
pants r pant no matter wat color . if ur “posek” wouldnt twist the torah to get out of it watever heter he wants he would have less such problems with his kids
There is certainly room for debate on this issue, However what is not up for debate is Kovod for a Rav.
I know a posek , when his daughter married a skier and the Skiing became a marriage issue. He told her to wear Pink with Flowers Ski Pants (something so feminine no normal male would wear)
Can RCA Rabbi’s be part of the Agudah?
YCT is not centrist Orthodox, Its leftist Orthodox.
Id estimate Chofetz Chaim Yeshiva is more centrist. They teach secular studies (serioiusly) and do allow the Bochrim to attend some college courses and do encorage the Bochrim to get jobs instead of lifetime Kollel
The is a root cause and the root cause is someone is unhappy, miserable and bitter.
If someone loves the Yeshiva , Loves doing all the Mitzvoth, Loves the Taasehs AND the Lo Taases they are not leaving.
If you love learning Gemorah, why would you ever stop doing it, but if you cant stand it , are bored with it and remember the Rebbe punishing you because you didnt do something with it, You are going to dislike it
What causes the hate, that is on an individual base.
Ultimately you are only as strong as your weakest link.
WOW’s post isnt the first one on this topic. Its only the longest one because it has become theraputic for her.
Why is the root causes being ignored. Someone doesnt go OTD overnight. It takes time for it to occur and many times (if not most) the damage is permanent. I dont know if WOW’s son is coming back or not. Nobody does. He obviously associates Yiddishkite with negative things, Why would he want to be religous. Why would he want to learn if he associates abuse with Torah. Who wants to get slapped by the Rebbe because one day he was daydreaming
DY : Just semantics
I think you missed the point however. When the government wants to take the lesser learners and help them in some way (We can debate what way is best) the charedi world gets all up in arms
However when there are lesser learners not under pressue for outside forces to do something else, Instead of trying to find them a place in the world the charedi world throws them under the bus
When I read here about the debates in Israel , Those who are for the draft claim What if a guy is not a great learner and is “Goofing around” or not up to the task
And the response has been EVERYONES Torah is equal before hashem.
So even those who are less learners should not be drafted.
Now when I bring up that Yeshivas are already throwing out the weaker students and many Behavior issues are related because not everyone can sit 12-14 hours a day (especially a Teen) and learn. They then become frustrated and act out and some of the acting maybe just be boredom. But because they are punished because they cant 12-14 hours (If the “Gadol A” learned 14 hours a day so can you) otherwise you are an “At-Risk Teen”
Many MO schools take Kids who are not Frum in the hopes of Making them frum . Some of them never become frum and some do become frum.
Charedi schools rarely take such kids so its not really fair to compare the 2 since the MO schools are taking a risk the charedi schools are not.
You arent going to make a non-frum kid unless you at least give it an effort
The MO community issue is the tuition is too high and people are taking their kids out of the schools because they cant afford it
I cant speak about Dati Leumi because I am not familiar with the issues, but I assume Tuition isnt an issue.
But ask any Gadol if a Yeshiva should not take someone because the parents arent as “frum” as you are
PBA
I think there are 2 Benefits to Smoking marijuana,
1) marijuana helps against Glaucoma
2) People on Chemo have a tough time eating and keeping food down. They lose their appetite and throw up alot. its called wasting away. marijuana helps fight this urge and helps those patients eat
One Purim I was at a yeshiva and I saw off to the side a few Bochrim rolling a few joints
It was not my yeshiva so I told my friend who was a bocher there and showed him the boys rolling.
He then went to the Rosh yeshiva and told them what he saw. Unfortuantly it was Purim and the R’Y had already began celebrating and was not in a position to stop them. He unfortuatnly did nothing because it was Purim.
I am saying a system that is willing to cast off “excess” is flawed
If Space is scarce, make more space. There seems to be plenty of money for many other things that we can debate if its a chumra or halacha,
We are talking about future generations here. Whats more important. Debating about what kind of Haircut a Yeshiva Bocher should have or just plain chinuch
All neshams are important
What has happend is many are willing to throw some under the bus and unfortuantly this thread is about such people.
Because spaces are scarce, everyone wants the best and the rest get left behind
Also, since when I’d this something to discuss with non jews?
If you go out in the real world. people will ask you questions like it or not, and its considered rude not to answer.
Best is try to answer diplomatically instead of your personal feelings.
I just wanted to add it would be much better if change came from within Charedi society. It seems that any critism is seen as being anti-Charedi instead of perhaps being constructive.
It is a shame people think any critism is a black mark on Charedi society.I do not think any less of charedim because there are R’Y who might be great talmid Chacham, are not really able to be teachers.
This thread has being going on for a year and it seems from an outsider that things did get somewhat worse over the year (Sometimes on a daily basis its harder to see change) . It would benefit charedi society much better if you would expose the flaws in the system so that others do not go through what you went through and try to make things better.
It would be much better for Charedi Society and yourself if people like yourself would gather together and try to make things better. It might hurt at first, Sort of like Chemo therapy which hurts at first but in the end you will get better
Yiddishkite says all jewish newshamas are precious and must be educated in yehsiva
Frumkeite – I dont want MY kid in a yeshiva with THAT kid because his parents have internet and I dont want MY kid infected with such shtus
I wish you could take a step back and not be so defensive and realize you did nothing wrong.
Sometimes it does pay to look at things from the outside and realize what is going it. People in the chraredi world are mostly good (There are bad apples in every group).
Please seperate YIDDISHKITE from FRUMKITE and you will see what I am talking about. (They are NOT the same)
WOW
I know from charedi family members they really do think like the R’Y who says to keep out families with OTD members. Its not an aberattion and they do think OTD kids should be kicked out. They were talking about it during Pesach.
The problem is not Yiddishkeite, Its FRUMKEITE . In the goyish world people try to out do the jones in cars, houses etc. In the Charedi world people are trying to out-frum the Goldsteins by Proving they are MORE FRUM than everyone and they dont care what damage it causes. People are not willing to stand up and say enough. They are not willing to say that yeshivas have the community hostage and when one speaks out they should be shunned from the community.
Look at Ramat Besi Shemesh. It was wrong what happend, but why did nobody speak out. That is a flaw.
Look at the Yeshiva system in Israel now. Do you think EVERY Charedi belives in lifetime Kollel . Of course not some I am sure belive in work and would love to work (and I bet some would even like to join the army) but nobody is sticking up..
I know plenty of Charedim. Much of my family is Charedi and I like them.
Speaking up against the misguided people will do alot to end your frustration and I am sure many others as well
Some people need to realize the difference between constructive critism and bashing.
Not all critism is bashing and everyone can take some Chizuk even Charedim.
This thread unfortunatly exposes flaws in the Charedi society and WOW is a victim of it.
Teens are rebellious. Its just part of growing up. It really isnt the end of the world . How to deal with such teens.
You have a sibling who is “OTD” and a yeshiva rejects him soley because he has an OTD Sibling. Please tell me where that is acceptable. There is a well known Gadol who had a sister who was a communist and when he about to enter the Yeshiva Gadola his sister did everything she could to discourage him from going and go to a university . And you know what the Yeshiva took him anyway and he became the Gadol HaDor.
Perhaps if the Charedi world would accept some critism (You can usually tell the difference between hateful talk and constructive critism and even hateful talk may have valid critism in it)
I still read them.
It has sort of fed my addiction to see the world (Not sure if that is good or bad)